Is the NCO Corps losing its pride?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 08:41:58 -0500

To be an NCO meant the world, it meant that the Army had trust and confidence in you. It means that I should and would never bat an eye to your integrity, your character and your honor. The NCO Corps had luster and made us proud. And thanks to incentives such as "automatic promotions" I have seen it slowly fall. I have witness soldiers going from not being able to keep their boot laces tucked in to wearing the rank in a flash and it scares me. As a promotable specialist, if I see the flaws in the system, big Army has some serious issues to address. Am I wrong or just naieve?

Response by CSM David Heidke made Dec 23 at 2015 8:48 AM

CSM David Heidke — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 08:48:35 -0500

Specialist, if you see a problem with the Corps, you are empowered to change it at the lowest level. While those at the highest level can work to fix it strategically, it is you at the lowest level, closest to the troops, who need to change it tactically.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 9:10 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 09:10:00 -0500

The Army being at war since 2002 has caused these problems. The Army is standard based. The wars caused the Army to boost its numbers, which means that standards had to be lowered to get people in quicker. Now these individuals have risen through the ranks, not meeting the Army's original standard. I've been in since 1998 and have served in every part of the Army, active duty, national guard, and now Reserves. I've completed my NCOES courses to standard. I know for a fact there a ton of NCO's out there who graduated with marginal 1059's. I don't agree with it. If you fail your APFT or height and weight you shouldn't get to wear the stripes. If you cant meet the standard, how can you expect your soldiers to????? Now we have the QMP going on. This is a good thing. It's going to weed out those who slid into our Corps by default. The CSM is right, if you want to change it, do it at the lowest level. Once you get your stripes you can lead by example. Don't be lazy. If a soldier is out of regs then you handle it. Every single time an NCO lets something slide they create a NEW standard. This has plagued us for years now. That's why I decided to become a drill sergeant. Now I can get to these soldiers right off the bus. It sounds like you have a good idea of what needs to be done SPC. Good luck to you.

Response by SGT William Howell made Dec 23 at 2015 9:30 AM

SGT William Howell — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 09:30:36 -0500

SGT Private RallyPoint Member I noticed you are in the Reserves. The Reserves and Guard sometimes are run on the Good 'Ol Boy system. I used to swear there was no such thing until I realized that I was in it and then there was a change of command. Then I was out. It can be frustrating when you are not in the system.

Being that you are ready to make the next step, start planning on making it right. I always carried a notebook for taking notes of how people lead. If somebody did something good I would right it down. If somebody did something that was just screwed up, I wrote that down too. I also wrote down what I would do differently.

Find a mentor that will help you grow. Mine was SSG Eric Dean. He was not liked among the leaders because he would call them on good ol boy bullshit. He took care of his people, but he always made sure the mission came first. I styled how I lead based on his style, but I had my own way of doing things.

There are always going to be NCOs that are worthless. Don't mind them. Be part of the solution. Live by the NCO Creed and don't take the easy road.

Response by SGT Jay Ehrenfeld made Dec 23 at 2015 9:39 AM

SGT Jay Ehrenfeld — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 09:39:41 -0500

Sgt. It all politically now in the military it you have kiss someone ass and if they like you and your in protected class it got worse under this president.

Response by SGT Jay Ehrenfeld made Dec 23 at 2015 9:42 AM

SGT Jay Ehrenfeld — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 09:42:38 -0500

It suppose to know your job

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 10:25 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 10:25:52 -0500

When I was a Non-Commissioned Officer in the greatest Army in the world, the U.S. Army I didn't let anyone or anything change who I was nor the standards that I upheld. I was an NCO for a reason, to train, mentor and lead my soldiers in garrison or combat. Didn't matter, either way they were ready. I'm saying all of this to say don't worry about what others are doing. Make on the spot corrections when needed, but make sure you are respectful and by the regs. The NCO Corps are strong and something to be proud of. Strive to be the best soldier and NCO that you can be. Because when it's all said and done, the soldiers need a strong leader and the U.S. Army does too! Hooah!

Response by SSG Raymond Whitener made Dec 23 at 2015 10:41 AM

SSG Raymond Whitener — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 10:41:19 -0500

In my opinion, Pride as an NCO is an individual quality inherent in the NCO, gleaned from the NCO Corp. We, as a Corp can talk excuses about where we are as a leadership team and where the soldiers are in quality, but at the end of the day, as the backbone of the Army, it is our job to align or realign the soldier force within the standards set before us by our leadership. You are about to be the rank that is most challenging because one day the soldiers are your friends, and the next day, you are their supervisor. We are a team of professionals, so if you have questions, ask any of us for advice. Welcome to the backbone!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 11:04 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 11:04:40 -0500

Not if I have anything to say about it.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 12:08 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 12:08:41 -0500

This will not happen in my unit while I am the Detachment Sergeant of my unit. But in your case, at the lowest level, you sit at a position that, believe it or not, can affect change. When you get your stripes.....BE THAT NCO that everyone looks to for guidance, help and mission completion. When you get your stripes and you work hard to affect change and continually meet and beat the standard, you will certainly stand out and then the Soldiers will want to emulate you. Hell, you don't even need to wait til you get those stripes. You can certainly start now my meeting and exceeding the standards to show others what things should be.

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Dec 23 at 2015 1:23 PM

SFC Kenneth Hunnell — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 13:23:04 -0500

Have you lost yours?

Response by SN Greg Wright made Dec 23 at 2015 1:43 PM

SN Greg Wright — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 13:43:14 -0500

SGT Private RallyPoint Member Interesting question. I have often thought (and I'm quite willing to be wrong, but my thought is based upon what I've seen) that the Army doesn't revere their senior enlisted like the Navy does. CPO and above in the Navy are some of the most highly regarded Sailors in the USN. Just making the observation, since I can't speak directly to your query.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 2:40 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 14:40:21 -0500

Depends on troops themselves, I am only a good nco when my team is good if they are not doing what is required or expected of them then I am a poor leader. I have 2 rules do not lie to me and give me your trust and you have mine I can call or text or email my troops in an hour have the answers I need may not like em bit I have em and then we either move on or we fix it and move on. I can not do everything that is why we are team and I did not choose my team they were chosen for me! That is to me what 1st line leaders should be not micro manage but build cohesion and keep to military bearing with traditional making of soliders

Response by SPC Rory J. Mattheisen made Dec 23 at 2015 3:21 PM

SPC Rory J. Mattheisen — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 15:21:19 -0500

I do not know if the pride is lost, but I can say they have lost the respect of their troops. My NCO's were the best in the Army, and every troop I knew felt the same way, the people I have coming into my groups have nothing good to say about their leadership.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 4:55 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 16:55:50 -0500

Part of that problem starts at your level. What did you do to correct that soldier or battle buddy so that when he or she was automatically promoted to SGT he or she knew? I am a firm believer that the problem begins at your level and it is soldiers like you that need to enforce the standard at the same time. Once you pin on that SGT then it's second nature.

Response by MSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 5:39 PM

MSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 17:39:58 -0500

I do not think the NCO Corp is losing its pride but the quality of NCOS has downgrade due to the wars' fast promotions and little to no quality mentorship due to inexperienced leaders. I do think that the Army is making strides to fix this with more promotion requirements. This problem will not completely be fixed until the soldiers of the post war Era are trained to the standards of the pre war days and enforce the higher standards on their subordinates.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 7:58 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 19:58:08 -0500

Spc promotable, the nco corps has a lot of issues and some have to do with army values, but a lot of it has to do with the micro management from higher echelons. Automatic promotions are out of whack also, we also need a better hr system so that a promotable specialist or sergeant is not waiting three years to pick up but is instead put in the slots big army is allowing automatic integration. Think about it, if you have 600 points and are doing all you can do but your mos is not promoting, and hasn't in two years or so but then you look around and a soldier who is basically average in another mos who does nothing to get promoted on purpose gets printed past you and you are standing ar parade rest for that average or worst than average soldier. Most of the time these mos s that give automatic integration are not difficult to learn so why does our hr not move soldiers who have potential? I hear the army wants to promote the best of the best but that is not what happens in a lot of instances. So now back to the nco corps, there are a lot of issues such as how you discipline soldiers for instance I can write counseling statements all day long but if the chain does not back you it is just paper we also have the issue of nco s getting stagnant. Officers get to change jobs ever year or so, but an nco could basically be doing the same job with some additional duties for ten years or more I could go on and I do not want to ramble because it sounds like excuses just think about it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 8:09 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 20:09:27 -0500

When I was a SPC moving from active to reserves I was told to Calm down by my 1sg and that it's not the same as being in active duty.

While that is true, I kept up my high standards and was able to help develop NCO's as well as my peers. If you can run circles around an NCO and push them to be better soldiers regardless of rank make certain they get squared away. And as long as you keep doing the right thing you become untouchable. Honestly though standards are enforced at all levels not just top down. As soldiers we are one team and not every soldier or NCO is good at everything so we teach and learn at all levels.

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Dec 23 at 2015 8:27 PM

SFC Kenneth Hunnell — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 20:27:56 -0500

Pride does not have an Insignia, Either you have it or not. Pride is being able to say Yes I did that and be happy that everyone knows it

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2015 3:21 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 03:21:51 -0500

I can agree with the Statement. Soldiers now don't respect leadership. Most of them don't understand "constructive criticism" and become too "Butt Hurt". Lower enlisted confuse leadership with friendship; while both can be infused, it must not be confused for weakness. If someone of senior rank ask's you to do something (unless it's immoral or unjust) then do it. There's a method to the madness!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2015 7:18 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 07:18:54 -0500

The NCO corps has is going thru a cycle just like the army. Kids that have been in less than 3yrs are being promoted and the older e-5s are being pushed out or they are getting out

Response by SGM Eric Lobsinger made Dec 24 at 2015 11:05 PM

SGM Eric Lobsinger — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 23:05:17 -0500

A lot of great observations here. My comment is that I heard very similar comments when i joined the Army ... in 1984. At that time, we were phasing from a time dominated by the professional remnants from the Vietnam War days. I would say that today's NCOs face a different dynamic then we had back then. To be quite frank, our Army - and our NCOs - were impressive dynamos. A 752,000 strong Army and we had taking care of Soldiers down pat. Today you have Soldiers who were brought up in a different environment where the necessities of prolonged combat deployment cycles required a different skillset. Give your Army, and your NCO Corps, the opportunity to readjust. And yes, those of you at the SPC and SGT level will be the greatest future influence in the Army and your senior NCOs owe you the leadership (tough, demanding and nurturing) you deserve. Do not depend on a promotion system to make the required changes ... depend on yourselves, your NCO leadership and your warrant and commissioned officers. Don't forget, they are going through the same issues you are at their levels.

Response by Vonice LarsenBailey made Dec 25 at 2015 5:23 PM

Vonice LarsenBailey — Fri, 25 Dec 2015 17:23:48 -0500

Try walking into a building where the CQ has called to say there is a problem. You arrive at said building and there is no problem and the CQ in that bldg has no idea who called. You all the CQ back and he says "Oh wait I think this is Bldg ____. It is BLDG _____. Is that a problem?" You arrive at BLDG _____ expecting a fuzzy or a mosquito maybe. Not a SGT E5 that has had 24 hours to know what effing bldg he has been in charge of and his company only has 2 bldg they're responsible for. Yeah I'd say the NCO caliber is slipping. I pray for the military daily.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2015 5:30 AM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Dec 2015 05:30:18 -0500

I heard and have used an old saying many times in my 22 + years of service in the USMC. "You can lead a damn horse to water, but you can't make his ass a damn tiger"

I have noticed that the younger generation seems more concerned with being liked by the soldiers/Marines they are chrged to lead than the are preparing that person for the hardships and horrors combat. I hated my NCOs as a young marine. I was scared of them. They trained me hard and were not my friend. After the first bullets screamed over my helmet and I wasn't the guy curled up in the fetal shitting all over my self, that tough love training they provided became and still is the most important thing I possess. Afterward I would consider those hard men my friends. My brothers. It's all perspective.

1stSgt MJ WHEELER. USMC. ACTIVE DUTY GUNFIGHTER.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 26 at 2015 3:54 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 26 Dec 2015 15:54:41 -0500

Could the NCOs feel burnout?

Response by SPC George Rudenko made Dec 27 at 2015 7:26 PM

SPC George Rudenko — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:26:02 -0500

NCO corps (corpse) is losing it's effectiveness to politics.

Response by CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) made Dec 29 at 2015 8:17 PM

CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 20:17:01 -0500

Fight a good fight, just make sure you are right before you try to correct someone. Once had a CSM make a big stink about the placement of my first aid pouch as I was entering the dfac (in Iraq). I then asked him why he wasn't standing at the position of attention while addressing an officer. Thought he was gonna have a stroke.

Response by SGT Jeremy Rekward made Jan 9 at 2016 12:07 PM

SGT Jeremy Rekward — Sat, 09 Jan 2016 12:07:55 -0500

The NCOs Corps itself is not losing its pride it's certain individuals that have made it into the NCO ranks that have no pride nor integrity. It's those NCOs that need to be addressed and a young Specialist like yourself that will see this and can change this by leading by example. Call out the NCOs that are slacking and bring it to there attention that the young soldiers see what they are doing. And do this in a professional way.

Response by SGT Dawn Sloan made Feb 3 at 2016 6:28 AM

SGT Dawn Sloan — Wed, 03 Feb 2016 06:28:53 -0500

And this is why I got out.