Is the old enlisted/officer paygrade system outdated, considering the more educated service members under an All Volunteer Force?

2016-09-12T19:37:28-04:00

I feel it the old Military Paygrade Enlisted Officer system is not optimal, to take advantage the new use of the 1975 induction of the AVF All Volunteer Force educated citizen/service member, when the DOD finally had QOL Quality Of Life as a budget item?

The old system seems to start from the world of kings and queens monarchy's etc where the plebeian are drafted, conscripted, and separated from various functional civilized intelligent things in various ways.

We still need a fighting force willing to stand strong. No one disagrees. Now we have over 90% high school graduates at a minimum enlisting as early as 18 in the AVF since 1975, who should be able to be honored for their intelligence, determination, willingness to be that force that defends. We are no longer drafted into the old world construct of military systems.

Response by LTC Kevin B. made Sep 12 at 2016 7:49 PM

2016-09-12T19:49:59-04:00

Would you please restate your question? What you're trying to ask is completely unclear.

Update: My question was asked before the original post was subsequently adjusted for clarity.

Response by SFC Josh Billingsley made Sep 12 at 2016 8:08 PM

2016-09-12T20:08:46-04:00

What would your propose we use to replace the current system?

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Sep 13 at 2016 6:54 AM

2016-09-13T06:54:27-04:00

In a word: NO! If you have gathered the education and skills, apply for promotion. OCS, ROTC, Direct Commission, and Academy appointments are there for those who earn them. As far as the leadership chain, look at fire departments. They use a similar structure. Rank and pay are based on responsibility and position. Same in the civilian world with corporate officers and employees. You may have a high school drop out CEO who employees several PhDs.

Response by SFC Jerry Humphries made Sep 13 at 2016 6:57 AM

2016-09-13T06:57:41-04:00

The Problem with the pay system is Cross the board pay raises, 2% or so for an officer vs enlisted rank early in career ends up being substantial pay gap after half a life time. Another thing is some soldiers spend a disportinate time in the feild on deployment and training vs others I would like to see a pay system that compensates for that.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 7:30 AM

2016-09-13T07:30:28-04:00

I think the rank system is fine. Where I believe their needs to be refinement is to bridge the pay gap between officer and enlisted, I will provide a few examples as to why.

1.
Soldier couldn't complete their degree in mechanical engineering before enlisting for various financial reasons, they have to enlist as a E3 as highest possibility.
Highspeed, intelligent, great shape

Officer completes degree in underwater basket weaving because parents gave them a full ride, commissions as an 01, fairly incompetent overall.

2: The military is pushing for enlisted to earn a Bachelors degree by the time they are E7 if they want to be competitive, that means we have to not only work full time but also fit in secondary education in whatever little free time we have left. Now you have E7-E9 that are just as educated as O1-O5s but there is a severe pay gap. Not to mention a huge experience gap for the O1-2.

Officers are also allowed a "break in service" to be able to earn a masters degree while enlisted must work double time for half the pay.

This is why their needs to be more fair compensation, and possibly add a "command" special pay as not all captains in a BN need to be making the same amount as someone in a command position.

Response by CH (MAJ) Thomas Conner made Sep 13 at 2016 7:55 AM

2016-09-13T07:55:49-04:00

No. I started my military career as Enlisted, serving 6 years Active, got out went to the Reserves and college and Graduate school, then rejoined as an officer after obtaining my MDiv. The transition from Enlisted to Officer was shocking! The two are "worlds" apart in regards to responsibility and expectations! There is nothing preventing an Enlisted Soldier from going "green to gold" once they meet the requisite educational requirements (I have a niece who just did this). However, several Soldiers I spoke to about becoming an officer replied they did not want to be an officer even though it meant a rather sizable pay increase. If an individual wants the pay of an officer, become an officer!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 8:04 AM

2016-09-13T08:04:23-04:00

I see both sides of this, but I think the current system generally works, in part because it's relatively easy to go from enlisted to officer. I don't know how representative my experience is, but about a third of the officers I've served with are prior enlisted. That mobility prevents the development of an entrenched rift between the "aristocrats" and the "serfs."

I do think the gap between officer pay and NCO pay is too big, though, especially the BAH. Housing allowance should be the same across all ranks, although perhaps with higher allowances based on years of service.

Response by SGT David T. made Sep 13 at 2016 8:13 AM

2016-09-13T08:13:27-04:00

You have to remember that the military is paid the bare minimum to get people to do the job and you are paid based upon your level of responsibility and education. Officers will always make more than enlisted generally speaking. If you want to make more you have 2 options. Get a degree and commission or get out get and get a better paying civilian job. It really is that simple.

Response by SSG Dr. John Bell, PhD. made Sep 13 at 2016 8:16 AM

2016-09-13T08:16:29-04:00

I think so. I finally got my Masters and PhD after retiring from the military. I worked the majority of time with out help from the Military.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 8:49 AM

2016-09-13T08:49:38-04:00

As an enlisted member with a lot of higher education I understand that the pay is more about the responsibility than it is about the education. Since I am a weekend warrior and have a civilian job where I have a great deal of responsibility I do not need to have that is my reserve life too. If I wanted to be an officer I would have become one. The pay doesn't matter to me given that this is just more of a "hobby" and even when deployed my civilian employer makes up the difference in my salary. Now if the Air Force had a warrant officer program for technical specialists I would definitely be interested in that!
So, something to understand even if you get nothing else out of this is that sometimes enlisted people want to be enlisted because they enjoy the job. I will tell you what; no reasonable amount of pay increase can make up for a job that makes you miserable!

Response by COL John Hudson made Sep 13 at 2016 9:16 AM

2016-09-13T09:16:04-04:00

Aaron, I enlisted in the Army in August, 1966, earning the princely sum of $97 per month (I cleared $71 after taxes). I had never made that much $$ in the 19 years of my life up to that point working for local farmers and a paper route. One stood at attention in front of a pay Officer sitting at a small field desk and was handed cash. Frankly, I didn't have any idea how to spend that much money! Single, easy job, no bad habits, had 3 hots and a cot - life was good! Now for the numbers: I earned $1,164 a year at that salary rate. An Army Pvt-E1 today earns $18,803 per year now ($1,567 a month). Result? Today's young E-1 service member's pay is 96% higher than when I entered the service, making more in one month than I was paid for a full year. Yes, we can debate today's economy, education and all the other factors, but I do not believe we need to increase basic pay across the board. Pay is computed against the job one signs up for, and by any standard whatsoever is generous when compared to similar positions in the civilian world. Too many ignore the many benefits of military service (medical, dental, commissary, exchange, clothing, free travel), focusing only on payday dollar amounts. Do the math and add the cost of all those free bennies to salary and then we'll talk.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 9:18 AM

2016-09-13T09:18:42-04:00

I think it still fits because of the differing responsibilities of officers and enlisted. Degree or not (I have a bachelors) I won't get fired or lose my career if I receive disciplinary paperwork. Nor do I worry about what every little thing will do to hurt or help my promotion opportunities. Paperwork is a career killer for an officer as is getting fired. Don't promote fast enough and your out, etc. Officers are paid more for their responsibilities, not based on a degree. It's always greener on the other side. I enjoy being enlisted and not having to deal with the politics of the officer world.

Response by SGM Jeff Howard made Sep 13 at 2016 9:46 AM

2016-09-13T09:46:45-04:00

No reason to fix what is not broken. With overall compensation Military Pay is close to civilian sector. (Med, VHA etc) While we have an educated force, there is no enlisted MOS that requires a degree. Should a PFC with a Bachelors degree in Underwater Basket Weaving get paid more than a HS Grad? No. Life is about choices, I have never met anyone who served because of Pay, we serve for many reasons and we chose to serve. My base pay in 1977 was $373 a month as an E-1. Unskilled soldier, my pay increased as my skills and responsibilities did.

Response by 1SG Jay Vanderford made Sep 13 at 2016 10:50 AM

2016-09-13T10:50:03-04:00

Well, this again, have heard it for many years, so I will add here. As a retired 1SG, and having come through the Army when the NCO was labeled the Backbone of the Army Leadership was very important to me. I learned that as a SSG I was now a part of the Chain of Command, as a section chief you interact directly with the LT. I had great leaders around me as I grew to understand also that my authority also cane for the POTUS at certain levels, SFC and above. The biggest issue that was apparent to me upon my retirement in 2006 was that a majority of Enlisted simply do not know their place in respect to the Chain of Command. The NCO support channel runs parallel, it was incumbent upon myself to know not only my job, but that of my LT and eventually that of my Battery Commander, so if its responsibility you seek, you will have it as you earn rank. If its money you're after, military is not the job for you. The reason we are a All Volunteer Force, we still have patriots in the making, yet we still see those with an agenda other than that, trying to make changes to the core of the greatest force on the planet, not necessary. The only rank structure I would change is to bring back the SPC ranks up to SGM for staff and Enlisted technical fields. I lost many a good Soldier that I would never have considered a leader, yet were excellent at their respective jobs. Lastly, no one can pin on leadership, but there are a select group of people that have those inherent values and beliefs that can be developed, this is something I learned and stressed throughout my career, you can have an E5 or an NCO, you'll know the difference. Serve for pride in your Country, if you serve for money, you'll remain disappointed.

Response by SN Bryan King made Sep 13 at 2016 1:13 PM

2016-09-13T13:13:45-04:00

I joined to serve my nation, not for the pay.

Response by COL Dave Sims made Sep 13 at 2016 1:40 PM

2016-09-13T13:40:13-04:00

" We are no longer drafted into the old world construct of military systems." What the hell does that mean ? You choose to serve in the military for many reasons. How much money you make should not be one of them. Military compensation has changed greatly over the years and for the most part for the better. There are ways to compensate people who have education, training, etc. that the military needs.
BUT if you are serving because of the pay you are in the wrong place. Formal education is important. It is forced upon the officer corps...no promotion to 0-4 without a masters degree. I think we lose many good officers because of this artificial, bureaucratic requirement. NCOs feel this pressure too I think because of the linkage to promotion. What is missing here is that the emphasis should be on the ability to lead on the battlefield...to convince your folks to follow you into harm's way. A good rifleman does not need a PhD....he or she needs grit, determination and total commitment to their team. Schoolhouses do not teach this.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Sep 13 at 2016 3:10 PM

2016-09-13T15:10:08-04:00

No, if someone has formal education they have the option to apply to be an officer or Warrant Officer.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 9:40 PM

2016-09-13T21:40:05-04:00

As many have already stated, education levels are not the differentiator, duties are the driving force between compensation levels. Culturally, the image of the OJT enlisted and NCO versus the 'educated' officer class is obviously flawed. Smart leaders know their people and maximize their skills in completing the mission. Other leaders ...?

Response by 1SG Scott Munn made Sep 13 at 2016 11:37 PM

2016-09-13T23:37:53-04:00

Yes I'm old and I believe the old ways are better(sometimes). If you're not serving for Honor, Duty, Country with a big dose of life time brotherhood. Then you're in for all the wrong reasons.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Sep 14 at 2016 12:29 AM

2016-09-14T00:29:13-04:00

Sp4 Byron Skinner…There is really two questions here first is the military pay scale to low, of course the answer is yes. The minimum wage in the outside world is rapidly going to $15.00 and hour or $30,000 a year. If the November elections go the way expected on this over half of the military age people in the US will be making $15.00 an hour or MORE. At the other end of the scale the four stars are very much underpaid. The net pat and benefits for the highest rank is about $300,000 a year. Since there is no top management in the outside world that manages a company that makes about 3/4 billion dollars a year there really is no comparison. This is one reason that these señor MBA officers devote more time as Lt. Col's/Commanders to getting MBA's and making defense industry business contacts. It is not unusual for high ranking military officers to line up a job that pays in the millions a year. What do they do? The come back and lobby their former assistant to support large contracts, the bait the assistant can EXPECT a million dollar job when their military career is up….The second question is not all MOS's require the same skill levels, there are many enlisted jobs the military is trying to fill that can draw $100,000 a years. That is the reason the military has to resort to outside contractors for job that can't be filled by uniforms. The cost start about $250,000 a year example former E7's and E-8's who served in Special Operations making with bonuses about $80.000 a year make twice that much or more working for a contractor who makes 40% markup on his hourly wage bill to the military…Again a problem that is not understood and when it raises it ugly head the Pentagon will say: "…we never saw that coming."

Response by MAJ Derrick J. made Sep 14 at 2016 2:01 AM

2016-09-14T02:01:28-04:00

Son not everyone is fit o be a leader - that's why we have NCOs and officers. The structure now fits and doesn't need any changes, that's just fact.

Response by SCPO Frank Carson made Sep 14 at 2016 6:05 AM

2016-09-14T06:05:13-04:00

Nope! You are in a pay grade for a reason, just because you got a degree does not entitle you to more money. The same is true in the civilian world. When a person in the civilian world gets a degree their employer doesn't say well you got that paper now we are giving you more money! The good for you keep working. One has to put in for a new job! Get a commission, stay the course, or move on

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Sep 14 at 2016 6:13 AM

2016-09-14T06:13:23-04:00

I think it's just fine.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2016 11:12 AM

2016-09-14T11:12:47-04:00

Pay is and should be based on the responsibilities/skills required to perform a job. It is not based on the education/skills the worker has. If it were a PHD who was working as a burger server at Burger King should be paid %$50,000/year.

Response by SPC Walter Currier made Sep 15 at 2016 12:05 AM

2016-09-15T00:05:52-04:00

someone should mention that no one is paying taxes on the value of benifits such as food, clothing, housing, medical care, travel, education....as a police officer I recieved a clothing allowance of less than 300 per year and it was added to my salary as taxable income. I was assigned a take home car with paid for gas, and because I lived outside the jurisdiction i had to declare the milage from the limit of the etj( extra territorial jusrisdidction) to my home and caluclate a dollar value based on per dium rate and pay tax on that as income. When I left the service I was only taxed on my actual salary not the extra things, qtrs, meal allowance....so its a training issue that needs to be addressed. The value of the qtrs given the market you are living in meals,etc can be caluculated and probably shown to almost equal the payoll amount. which would make an entry level service members actual annual income double a seasoned member would need a very substantial salary to match or exceed then get a garunteed job for 4-8 years at a time depending on their field. Its my experience that in the private sector your job is leaving as you are being awarded it and you are lucky to have the same employer after 3 years, if you do you are doing 3 peoples jobs and not recieving extra pay for the work. Then after you get a few raises some one else comes onboard and you are training your replacement before you know it. I learnd the hard way that all that glitters isnt gold wish I woulda changed my circumstances and stayed in..I was making comparable money and would have a good retirement now. back on topic the payscale is publised and available when we signed up. They spent alot of time on it at reception ft dix in 1987 so I knew what I was gettin. Its all bout choices and the reasons behind those choices. Want to be paid more money I get it better solution is train members how to save in the early days and live within their means not spend it all on alcohol and toys.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 15 at 2016 5:08 PM

2016-09-15T17:08:03-04:00

Another point I feel is important is the difference between compensation (salary and benefits) versus rank. It's important to remember they are two different things. "Sort of like saying I've known a lot of E-9s and few MCPO/CMSgts/SgtMajors." If the LT out ranks me I salute and follow his orders; as a SNCO we may disagree from time to time but those below would never know/see it. At the end of the day he outranks me, the fact I take home more money is irrelevant.

Response by MAJ Raúl Rovira made Sep 17 at 2016 1:00 AM

2016-09-17T01:00:25-04:00

We are paid based on the duties associated of the pay grade we hold. Some jobs have education or training requirements. The military is not required to pay more to a service member because they have more education.

Response by CW3 Edison Phillips made Sep 20 at 2016 7:57 AM

2016-09-20T07:57:17-04:00

After I retired in 1989 and ventured into civilian life, I learned that the youth of that day and many today believe they should start at the top in pay and status without having gained the knowledge, education and especially years of on the job practical experience. Pay or the amount thereof doesn't mean much when one is thousands of miles away from home fighting for their country. It was the least of my worries when I was in Vietnam and when I was deployed to numerous other overseas areas.

One of many subtle differences between the military and civilian work force is that some civilians play the game of "kiss the bosses rear" to get ahead instead of working to succeed at what they do. I started out as a Private in the Army and worked my way up to retire as a CW3. It was not easy. I had to start all over when I retired from the Army and at 39 years old it wasn't fun finding yourself at the bottom of the ladder again. However, I started over in a totally different career and atmosphere. Again, I educated myself, worked hard and demonstrated my abilities (instead of kissing rear ends) and retired again as an Executive (Department Director). It is important to add that I surrounded myself with positive people who shared the same goals and successful attitude as I.

In both military and civilian life it takes dedication, discipline, determination and the willingness to sacrifice many things to reach the highest level of one's profession and earn the pay. However, one must be ready and willing to accept all the responsibilities and liabilities that comes with the position attained.

Response by CPT Wallace Ward made Sep 20 at 2016 8:10 AM

2016-09-20T08:10:01-04:00

It has nothing to do with education. It has to do with where the buck stops. If you want to be a commissioned officer them out the time and effort in and be willing to accept the burden that comes with it.

Response by Maj Walter Kilar made Sep 20 at 2016 9:00 AM

2016-09-20T09:00:17-04:00

Having spent 10+ years enlisted and 10+ years commissioned, I would say that the current system could use some tweaks, but it is not necessarily outdated to the point where it needs to be overhauled. Yes, the history of the enlisted and commissioned ranks is usually attributed to the hierarchy that arose from a force of conscripts serving lords, but the divide still serves a purpose today --albeit in a slightly different way. Most of the previous comments already capture my thoughts, but I will say that in the many times I have engaged in such conversations the topic of salary seems to rise to the top. For me, it was never about salary. I was actually much happier as an enlisted technician, but I found more satisfaction in knowing that sacrificing my happiness led to a larger sphere of influence and ability to make changes in the lives around me. Ultimately, the role of an officer is not to be a technician, mechanic, gunner, fireman, et cetera, but to influence, direct, and motivate the technicians, mechanics, gunners, firemen, et cetera in order to accomplish the mission. That definition comes straight out of the textbook, but having lived both sides I see how that simple definition makes sense and how it succinctly separates the enlisted and commissioned members. Yes, I did influence, direct, and motivate as an E-6, but not to the degree I did as an O-1 (O-1E). I did take advantage of an enlisted-to-commissioning program, so I will say that for those who think there should not be a difference those opportunities are out there. I will also say that being a prior-enlisted officer did confirm some of my suspicions that after commissioning I was competing against kids with degrees in underwater basketweaving or mommy-and-daddy-funded degrees in being rich and spoiled, but those kids quickly become adults thanks to the backbone of the military--the enlisted corps (the senior enlisted directly, the junior enlisted indirectly). If I could just change the pay system slightly on both sides, not just between enlisted and commissioned, but between technical and non-technical, I still would not change a thing. Serving in the military is about service to this nation, not picking the jobs that pay better. It is the difference in how we serve that differentiates officer and enlisted.

Response by CPT W Brown made Sep 20 at 2016 9:12 AM

2016-09-20T09:12:58-04:00

You're probably right, Aaron. If pay were based on education, or even functional skill, competence, and contribution, the pay system would flatten considerably. This is true in the civilian world, too. And women would be paid equally to men. Then why is there this huge inequity that skirts along almost a feudal system of compensation?

It is based on the level of responsibility for judgment (strategic, tactical, and operational combined) and what the market can bear. Is that clear? If not, I can explain more.

But by way of example, let's look at the NFL. A team has or is allowed to spend a certain amount on salaries. It cannot go above that. Total compensation and other expenses should not exceed revenue and, for the investor taking risk to own a business, a profit.

Is Aaron Rodgers making more than his offensive line because he went to a tier 1 college at Cal Berkeley? Is it because he can play so much better for his position than his lineman can in theirs? Maybe, but I don't think so. I think it is because owners feel that greater success comes from having a high performer at QB and they have fewer choices for top tier QBs than they do linemen. If they don't pay Aaron right, he's off to the Bears who desperately could use a better QB.

Hope this helps someone.

Dex

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made Sep 20 at 2016 10:16 AM

2016-09-20T10:16:11-04:00

I'm not sure what the education level has to do with the pay scale? Should a Pvt with a HS Dip make more than a Pvt with a GED? Should a L/Cpl with a BA Deg mark the same as a 2nd Lt with a BA Deg? When I enlisted 36 years ago, my monthly pay as a Pvt was roughly $340 a month. Lived in the barracks, ate in the mess hall, drank in the E-Club, occassionally enjoyed the sights and sounds that So. Ca had to offer. Life was good. Today a Pvt under 2 years makes over $1,500 a month. The pay is good, the life is good.

Response by SrA James Cannon made Sep 20 at 2016 11:50 AM

2016-09-20T11:50:05-04:00

There are plenty of senior NCO's who have master degrees or higher that are invaluable to the military. Perhaps such individuals as these could achieve higher pay by being promoted into warrant officer ranks? This would work for all of the branches except the Air Force who no longer uses warrant officers.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2016 2:26 PM

2016-09-20T14:26:40-04:00

I'll say this. We are paid more the longer we are in. I have seen chiefs make more than LTs because of their time in. But that being said I feel officers with the same time should make more. They are in charge of much more than a chief is. If someone is a captain of a carrier or another ship or in command of a base they have a lot on their shoulders. They will make calls that may or may not affect the lives of hundreds of men. Though all jobs are important I feel upper brass should make the money they do.

Response by Patricia Demeule made Sep 20 at 2016 2:55 PM

2016-09-20T14:55:59-04:00

I've met tens of thousands of our military forces. The old pay grade is In my opinion not enough remuneration

Response by Patricia Demeule made Sep 20 at 2016 3:08 PM

2016-09-20T15:08:25-04:00

I've met tens of thousands of our AVF. They more often that not have high school diplomas and further education. The remuneration for our military needs to be reevaluated taking into consideration the higher education which is apparent when you meet them. We have less than one half of one percent enlisting. Many of the DoD are former military who would have continued in the military if the pay scale was more equitable...

Response by MSG Chuck Pewsey made Sep 20 at 2016 3:09 PM

2016-09-20T15:09:28-04:00

When I was battalion operations sergeant, i sent out a memo to the first sergeants that concluded, "officers get paid to send people out to die. We get paid to bring them back alive." My major, lieutenant, warrant officer and I got called before the XO for a chewing out. It was only after the fact that I came up with an answer - that's why they get paid more than we do.

Response by PO1 Joseph Glennon made Sep 20 at 2016 5:13 PM

2016-09-20T17:13:54-04:00

Welcome to the military!

Pay has *always* been bitched about by both enlisted and commissioned personnel. Military pay will never - NEVER - actually cover all that you do and all that you're responsible for.

As SGT David Thomas said, " If you want to make more you have 2 options. Get a degree and commission or get out get and get a better paying civilian job. It really is that simple."

Another way to increase your pay is to learn the jobs that give bonus's or additional pay for doing them - and, then do them.

In the Navy, you've got a few choices, a few of which are:
Sea pay
Flight Deck pay
Hazardous Duty pay
Sub pay (if they still have that)

If you're on shore duty and never deploy - get a degree, learn your rate (not just what you do in your rate), get promoted, work towards a commission (which could include being sponsored to the Academy).

I had to put in a request chit in a few of my duty stations so I could moonlight (get a part-time job), because the cost of living was pretty much more than my pay, and I didn't feel that a member of the United States Armed Forces should have to request food stamps or public assistance... but, that's for another thread, isn't it?

Response by MSgt Walter Thomason made Sep 20 at 2016 9:43 PM

2016-09-20T21:43:45-04:00

How do you measure intelligence, determination, willingness to be that for that defends? By your ASVAB scores? By the job that you do day to day, showing your ability to not only do the job but learn about their craft and their service? Not to leave out learning not only to be a leader but what leadership is about. No one can measure someone based on who they think they are or what they appear like on paper. In my years, I knew quite a few that were either intelligent and capable but too lazy to trust to scratch his own butt. Or the ones that are book smart but couldn't do their jobs properly to save their own life. As you progress in rank, that is what it is supposed to be about is those determined to accomplish the mission and lead and has demonstrated it continually as they have progressed through the ranks. Even in Officers, some of the best I've seen started out Lt's that understood they were in charge but understood their NCO's (the good ones anyway) were there to help them learn and keep them out of trouble. The Officers that felt they were the Officer and you were the enlisted and there was nothing they could get from you... Most of the time it was a pretty amusing experience. I'll never forget the exercise with Captain M. The Sr. NCO's kept trying to tell her she didn't want to set up the cantonment area between and old runway and a taxiway. "I'm the Officer in charge and this is where I want it!" We woke up the next morning in 6-7 inches of muddy, swampy, smelly water. I don't intend to come across as condescending or any other way but the truth is that the system isn't perfect but it works and it works for a good reason. There is no better teacher than experience and learning from good leaders, especially in an AVF.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2016 11:53 PM

2016-09-20T23:53:40-04:00

If you feel you have more to offer the Navy, step up and drop a package. Talk to any of the Mustangs in your command, and they'll be happy to mentor you.

That being said, be prepared to see a different side of life. In the end, nobody cares how educated you are or where you got your degree. I've been mentored and trained by officers without degrees and chiefs with them. What matters is whether you stepped up for the job of an officer and the responsibility thereof. That's what we're getting paid for - perpetually having our necks on the block and accepting the responsibility for both the mission of the ship and the well-being of our Sailors.

If you think you're ready, STA-21 has an opportunity for you.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2016 11:59 AM

2016-09-21T11:59:34-04:00

It is not the education of the enlisted that necessarily drives the pay system, but rather the job function. Officers volunteer as well. If you think life is all rosy for an officer, ask them. The pay is better, of course. The amount of BS they have to deal with though is why they get paid the way they do. The military services are employers. The pay isn't the best, but the beenfits are what counts.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2016 9:25 PM

2016-09-21T21:25:15-04:00

It's not based on education, so no, that has nothing to do with it and doesn't change anything. The degree requirement is arbitrary.

Response by 1SG Al Brown made Sep 23 at 2016 12:43 PM

2016-09-23T12:43:08-04:00

No. It works. It's been fair enough that no group has revolted, beyond striving for promotion to receive more compensation. Also, Officers make the rules, and I don't see them arguing to change the pay system anytime soon. It's good to be the king, until you're not.

Response by SPC Jonathan Nagy made Sep 24 at 2016 1:33 PM

2016-09-24T13:33:08-04:00

Please remember this was typed by a po"3". Entitaled kiddies need to remember that sure you may be "smart" but you get payed for responsibility and position. Remember a brand new soldier still gets payed far better than a civilian if your right out of Highschool tho you rarely notice. Sure you actual take home pay is shit BUT full complete healthcare, enlisted up to E-5 (or respective pay grade) have Barrakes ability (no rent, no utilities and free maintained laundry.) you have the chow hall so free food, yes the hrs suck but it's there so as long as your not a child with your money you can live comfortably right off the bat. You get pay raises every year plus every every survice year, 2 cents is still 2cents more lol. You get 30 days of PAID leave every year (no civilian job does that. Free quality gym access, cheap food and booze. If you add up all the shit you don't pay for you actually make a lot more than what your end of the year income statement says. Yes i was just an E-4 but 7 years later I made more than your typical new Single E-5 and even stupid with my money I was doing fine. We get days off like crazy and all they ask is that we are on time in the right uniform and we are doing what we should be or at least not fucking up, he'll only in the military can you experience going to work and not doing a damn thing because you litterally have nothing to do and don't you dare say that never happens I have friends in the AF that will call your bs. And when it comes time to deploy you get payed a little more for the trouble and actually work for your paycheck tho I will admit cutting deployment pay to a 4th what it used to be IS bullshit. All in all I'll admit soldiers arnt payed enough on principle but the pay grade system doesn't need to be changed. As a SPC I didn't deserve to make as much as an E-6. I didn't make my 5 for personal reasons

Response by 1SG Mark Mccall made Sep 24 at 2016 4:27 PM

2016-09-24T16:27:55-04:00

Granted the educational entrance level is higher today(over 20 yrs), but the folks graduating college want to jump right into big bucks.....not the military. The weaponry of the last 25 yrs DEMANDS higher education which is gained by AIT/OJT, and college on your time. Those coming in with degrees think they are being trained & lead by morons.........morons who will keep your ass alive until your ready to lead..........and then become a MORON like the rest of us. Do your 20 or so and be thankful of the BENEFITS at the END.

Response by COL William Oseles made Sep 24 at 2016 4:31 PM

2016-09-24T16:31:20-04:00

The difference in pay us not based on education but based on the level of responsibility of the positions.

As a 2LT I signed for in b excess of $9 Million in equipment and had 4 SSGs signing for $2.8 Million each.
On a good day they were responsible for 4 Soldiers while I was responsible for 22.
Granted education at all levels are improved, but that is not the cause of the pay differential.

Response by LCDR Scott Stroman made Sep 24 at 2016 6:32 PM

2016-09-24T18:32:16-04:00

Having been enlisted and later commissioned, I have to disagree. Rank structure in the military is critical due to the very nature of our ultimate mission. We exist (1) to lay waste to our enemies, or (2) to support those doing (1). In either case, every single person so engaged must know exactly where they fit in the machine. Navy officers have not only ranks but lineal numbers and corps designations to know where they stand in the chain of command. I'm sure it's the same for the other services. If a line officer is doing his/her job, he/she is spending a good amount of time training his/her immediate junior to step up into the senior job, and is also studying under the wing of the next senior person. That's because people get killed in war, and sometimes in other circumstances. When that happens, the continuity of the organization demands that someone be ready to step up take charge. As far as officer vs. enlisted, as it's been mentioned, the distinction is sometimes due to level of civilian education achieved but more often ties to the responsibilities associated with the job to be filled. Upward mobility exists for those who are able and motivated. I served with some folks who couldn't pass a rating exam with the answers in hand, and others who went up the ladder so fast that all I had to do was get out of their way.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2016 10:11 PM

2016-09-24T22:11:42-04:00

Your argument about our rank system being outdated and a feudal system is flae

Response by PO1 Pete Sikes made Sep 24 at 2016 11:13 PM

2016-09-24T23:13:53-04:00

And your solution to your theoretical problem?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2016 5:17 AM

2016-09-25T05:17:52-04:00

I humbly believe military authority should be fixed instead of entirely getting rid of Commissioned Ranks. There should be no day where 2Lt. orders 1st Sgt. around. There should be official point where Non-Commissioned rank have more authority over someone who is commissioned with vastly larger amounts of experience without any red tape. For example E-7 and O-1 having the same amount authority. It baffles my simpleton mind that someone who spent 2 years in college for sociology degree or even accounting is suddenly thrust into platoon leader position after a few weeks (even months) of leadership training, with more authority than someone who was raised/distinguished from rank and file over the course of years.

Response by PO2 Devrie Paradowski made Sep 25 at 2016 10:27 AM

2016-09-25T10:27:06-04:00

The enlisted members are honored for their intelligence; however, the military will always need to have a clear division in ranking system for the purpose of clarity in chain of command. It's not so much about education as it is about responsibility.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2016 8:37 PM

2016-09-25T20:37:54-04:00

Your argument bis flawed. Here's why:

You're correct in that officers were historically aristocrats, while enlisted men were typically serfs or lower class. However, we no longer have those social institutions. Anyone can seek a commission if they qualify, regardless of who their parents were. Even those who can't afford college could enlist for four years and have their college mostly paid for. If you don't want to meet the requirements for officership, then don't complain. My parents went to trade school and were lower middle class for most of my growing up. I certainly didn't come from royalty.

Response by Sgt William Straub Jr. made Sep 26 at 2016 10:48 AM

2016-09-26T10:48:32-04:00

I had two Uncles' that went career Navy. One retired as a LtCmdr. John H. Straub. He worked for Admiral Rickover and was one of the officers involved with the nuclear power plant installation on the USS Enterprise. Original designation CVAN-65 then changed to CVN-65. My Uncle Joseph Straub retired as a Master Chief. I'm not entirely sure what he did but he said "if I told you, I'd have to kill you". I'm not sure if he is kidding or not. My Uncle John was a "Mustang", he served during WW2 and always told us, if your going to go career become an officer. My kid brother John E Straub went career in the USAF, retired as an E-6. Security Policeman. Last 5 or 6 years attached to the 89th Wing at Andrews, fliying security on Special Air Missions, (Congressional Junckets) Sometimes Air Force 2 and I think once or twice on Air Force One. I was the first Straub to not go into the Navy. The day I enlisted, the only recruiter open was USAF. There was snow in New Haven, CT that day and the other recruiters didn't show up. I remember the recruiter saying "do you want 14 weeks freezing you butt of in Great Lakes?, 12 Weeks suffering in the swamp at Paris Island", 14 Weeks with a bunch of crazy people at Fort Dix? Or 6 weeks in sunny San Antonio, Lackland Air Force Base. It didn't dawn on me at the time, Feb 69 that I wouldn't be going in until Jun/Jul so freezing wasn't a probability in Great Lakes, nor did occur to me that the temperature in July - August in San Antonio TX rivaled that of the Sun. But I digress, The difference is, if you want more pay and are eligible, go Officer, if you just want to serve and have a more constant influence, in my opinion, go enlisted and become a senior NCO. You would have more of an impact on your subordinates on a daily basis.

Response by SPC Gary Welch made Dec 7 at 2018 5:34 PM

2018-12-07T17:34:37-05:00

This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2018 10:30 PM

2018-12-07T22:30:57-05:00

I'm going to play devils advocate mostly because I'm bored and I'm medically retired.

We've seen all the arguments about how you get free barracks, and food, and healthcare from the E6 and up crew. But let's really break it down.

First the Barracks, I get they are run by a contractor company, and it's easy to do room inspections and blame lower enlisted for being dirty as to why we find things like mold in the barracks. But the barracks share a common HVAC system, guess where the mold comes from? It's not dirty soldiers, it's a dirty HVAC system that cost too much to replace and get right.

Let's talk about the average size of a barracks room and the amount of BAH they lose to a 8x10 room with a connected common area and 1 bathroom. If you're in an area where BAH is 1000.00 for without dependents for E1-E4 and the average cost of a single bedroom apartment is 850.00 you cant sit there and wonder why lower enlisted act like children.

And since we are on the topic of maturity and acting right, and there is a large group of people here who see 095s, how many times have you seen senior enlisted and officers on there for serious things?

There is a level of good old boys that goes on, and not a single one of you can deny that.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2018 4:10 PM

2018-12-08T16:10:39-05:00

As long as the commissioned officer cohort exists, nothing beneficial will change for the other two.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Dec 8 at 2018 8:02 PM

2018-12-08T20:02:14-05:00

What exactly are you whining about?

Response by LTC Loyd G. made Dec 8 at 2018 11:09 PM

2018-12-08T23:09:58-05:00

The issue you bring up, if I understand correctly,is that since we are an AVF and better educated than militaries many years ago, then the rank structure used is outdated and must be changed. I respectfully disagree.

The rank structure used by the military is duplicated in many civilian organizations. With the exception of only the lowest ranks (E1-E4), the rank structure is an application of supervision responsibility and span of control. Span of control is generally acknowledged as an individual ability to manage/supervise 2-5 people. An E5 is given a fire team, 4 Soldiers, an E6 is given 2 fire teams, an E7 is given 3-5 squads and so on. As for the Officer / Enlisted delineation of duties and responsibilities, the civilian world calls it white collar/blue collar. Additionally, Officers have certain authorities given them that are required in order to fulfill responsibilities with the various positions they are expected to be able to perform. i.e.,.. administer Non-judicial judgement, commit U.S. government funds for mission accomplishment .

If you are alluding to incentive pay for those individuals that have completed educational classes or degrees than what may be required for a specific rank or duty position, again, I respectfully disagree. Those individuals are “rewarded” normally through the board selections for promotions. The additional education achievements are “separators “ from the rest of the pack when two or more individuals records are so similar.

Response by CMDCM Dave Seitz made Dec 8 at 2018 11:58 PM

2018-12-08T23:58:20-05:00

So the oath that was taken and contract that was signed, what of that?
The "paygrade" system is pretty academic, compensation for job assignment.
As for the pay grade system also represents the basic chain of command system. I'm not clear as to what the young petty officers point is, or what his/her motivation is, does he feel he needs more $ for his position or does is it he feels unappreciated for what he may (or may not know)?
I tend to agree with the 1st SSgts comment, that the PO3 is not fully understanding his place with the team (chain of command). Or what his contribution is toward meeting the unit he's assigned tos mission. (Bad grammar I know).

Response by CWO2 Darryl Craft made Dec 9 at 2018 8:55 AM

2018-12-09T08:55:39-05:00

I at one time when I was a PO3 thought I knew better than the Officers. It is the job of the senior enlisted to guide and help train the young officers and guide the Jr. enlisted. A chain of command works and is required. Would a PO3 be able to make the decision of sending his friends into harms way? I doubt it. The military is no place for group decisions.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2018 3:32 PM

2018-12-09T15:32:17-05:00

Oppinion seems to center on one's educational accomplishments. An academic degree is not really the bases of why one should be commissioned and the other in an enlisted status. It is about who should really take responsibility for missions and be willing to command. I hear Soldiers rant all the time about having a masters degree when their commander only has a bachelors degree. "Why does he/she get more pay than me?" It's not because of their education, but a willingness to accept the risk of responsibility. Stop belly aching about having more education than your leader. Step up and apply for OCS.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Dec 9 at 2018 7:17 PM

2018-12-09T19:17:23-05:00

Yes. Pus the warrant officer pay system is outdated.

Response by Lt Col George Roll made Dec 9 at 2018 9:39 PM

2018-12-09T21:39:22-05:00

The Chineese tried a rankless command structure for their miliary Afterall as Communists everyone was equal, comrades

Response by Lt Col George Roll made Dec 9 at 2018 9:49 PM

2018-12-09T21:49:01-05:00

It didn't work because the military is build on a higherachy of rank. Discipline, Morale, leadership are all dependant on a rank structure. Technology demands a highly educated work (fighting) force. But planning for the training and deployment of that force requires Officers trained in different skill sets than NCOs and Enlisted soldiers. I have served 30 years, 10 1/2 as Enlisted and 20 as an Officer. I discovered it required different mindsets to excell at each.

Response by SSG Carl Gamel made Dec 10 at 2018 11:13 AM

2018-12-10T11:13:06-05:00

The Russian Communists tried to do Away with rank, back in the 20s, after they took over Russia, it proved to be a disaster to their military, the Chinese under Moa tried to do it also, it proved to be a disager to them also. So, why do you want to destroy our military, with a idea that has been a proven failure?

Response by PO1 Robert Adams made Dec 10 at 2018 6:21 PM

2018-12-10T18:21:35-05:00

In time you will realize that your pay and benefits rely primarily on a couple things. Your skill level in the profession you choose, and your negotiation skills. There are others to be sure. Now let’s be honest you are still at the entry level in your chosen field, either that or you are , let’s not go there. Also if you don’t like your situation get off your ass and do something about it. You signed up serve with integrity and honor it does not have to be a lifelong career.

Response by SP5 Hank Vandenburgh PhD made Dec 10 at 2018 7:13 PM

2018-12-10T19:13:43-05:00

I think the draft is healthy. Keeps down military adventurism. Helps young men grow up. The change I’d make in officer system is not getting rid of mustangs first.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2018 9:17 PM

2018-12-10T21:17:46-05:00

I have the solution. Pay should be based upon an individual merit system. The higher an individual rating, the higher the monetary compensation. So, in theory, a private could receive a higher rate of pay than a Major, given he receives a higher rating. So the solution is simple, merit.

Now, if you've managed to survive that line of drivel, you'll realize why we have the current system we do. Is it perfect? Of course not, no system is. But if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it!

Response by Sgt Matthew Timbs made Dec 11 at 2018 1:14 PM

2018-12-11T13:14:23-05:00

If you have the Money for college,you can be an officer.Work experience and time in will in very very rare cases give you the opportunity to try and become a Warrent Officer.Life is not fair,suck it up buttercup. As for me I say draft them all,draft the college edjucated into the enlisted ranks.The only problem I see with most high ranking officers is they are to detached from their enlisted men and too attached too politics

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2018 6:42 PM

2018-12-11T18:42:53-05:00

Honestly, when I was in the USAF, the officers were literal dumbasses. I got out so I did not have to breathe the same air as these dumbasses. Sadly, the NCO corp was not much better.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2018 9:47 PM

2018-12-11T21:47:59-05:00

If you want the pay of an officer be an officer. The difference in responsibility and stress from an O2 to an E4 is world's apart. Just because an E4 has a degree does not mean that they are being paid to utilize it. There are many programs to become a mustang and if people want to whine about how the ranking system is unfair instead of taking advantage of it then they clearly aren't ready to be an officer.