Is the phrase "Rank has its privileges" against the NCO creed?

2014-11-13T02:45:52-05:00

There is an air in the National Guard younger soldiers that I have noticed that they think that they DESERVE better than their superiors. They think because that they are younger and have been to basic that they are OWED things.

This is my basis. There was a newly promoted Specialist that was in a room of 8 bunks. 3 top, and 5 bottom bunks. Their was 3 Sergeants and 5 Specialists. The sergeant comes into the room and requests that one of the 4 Specialists need to move and give up the bottom bunk. The sergeant has 14 years of service and is 45 years old. He has not only put in his dues but also has the rank and the time in service over the other Sergeants and the Specialists. There was 3 requests and then told to move to a top bunk. the other Sergeants would not help the other sergeant in the validity of the request and there had to be a Staff Sergeant involved in the decision making process. The Specialist the had an issue with being told to move but eventually moved.

What is the view of the members of this great site of the mentioned situation, and how would you have handle such a situation.

Response by PO3 Shaun Taylor made Nov 13 at 2014 3:01 AM

2014-11-13T03:01:03-05:00

No it's not against the creed. The creed just states that I will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit or personal safety. In this situation I don't think the SPC should've just given up his bunk especially if he was there prior to the NCO, but once given the order I think he should've followed it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2014 3:04 AM

2014-11-13T03:04:51-05:00

I wouldn't consider anything coming from an NCO to a SPC as a request. No matter where one stands on the issue of taking the bottom bunk from the SPC, the SPC was wrong for not complying the first time he was told. If the SPC thought the NCO was wrong then he needs to take it up the chain. The SPC needs a good smoking.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Nov 13 at 2014 4:37 AM

2014-11-13T04:37:18-05:00

SGT Bryon Sergent, the situation could have been handled differently, why didn't they just take the three top bunks down and make five beds on the floor level....and give the SPC the option of making it happen or doing the duffle bag drag to the other bed.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2014 4:47 AM

2014-11-13T04:47:51-05:00

"I will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal safety." That says it all right there. The SGT was in the wrong and should have handled it differently. That's just from the info given about the situation. The soldiers come first, as they are one of our primary concerns.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2014 5:17 AM

2014-11-13T05:17:09-05:00

What about the NCO's who no longer abide by the standard set by the Army? I know more NCO's on profile than soldiers. Where's the leadership?

Response by SFC Melker Johansson made Nov 13 at 2014 8:13 AM

2014-11-13T08:13:06-05:00

Do we know if there's a medical issue that might have made it necessary for the NCO to have the lower bunk? He might have mobility issues or needing to use the latrine frequently.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2014 1:56 PM

2014-11-13T13:56:42-05:00

The Specialist should have moved, period! Yeah, I am a LTC, but my first ten years were enlisted; seven of them as an NCO. The creed may say "I will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal safety.” There is nothing in there about not getting the respect you deserve as an NCO. The respect you earned. There is certainly nothing in the Creed that absolved the Specialist from giving an NCO the cutesy and respect they deserve.

Furthermore, why are there Enlisted Soldiers bunked with NCOs? Unless this is an open bay situation, I am lacking an understanding of why this is. A single team leader can bunk with his team. Two team leaders and the Squad Leader with thier squad. but unless there was a "chain of command" reason for bunking these Soldiers together, I believe they need to be seperated.

Second, if those other three Sergeants don’t want to be the bad guys and support a fellow NCO they need to go back to being Specialists. One of the hardest things I can remember doing when I first became a Sergeant was to tell people who were my peers last week to get off their butts and do some work. But if you don’t want the responsibility, then you should stay a Specialist. Moving from E-4 to E-5 is a hell of a lot more than a pay raise. Deal with it.

All this may make me old school but that is fine with me.

Response by SFC Wesley Arnold, Jr made Nov 13 at 2014 2:57 PM

2014-11-13T14:57:47-05:00

This sounds more like a general lack of discipline or respect on everybody's part.

First let's look at the SPCs: I can see the SGT maybe, maybe having to repeat himself once ... ex. if the situation seemed that the NCO was joking, or that it was clearing understood ("somebody decide or I will")

Second we have the SGT allowing the situation over a bunk to undermine his authority; allowing the conduct will only lead to lack of respect for himself and the other NCOs of the unit.

Overall, bottom line if the SPCs felt that this was an unlawful order they should have taken it to the chain of command. The fact that it was still a lawful order they should have executed and then questioned the order. The SGT need not say "it's an order" ... it is; by definition anytime a superior directs a subordinate they are if fact ordering them execute a task.

The opposite of this situation would be as if a PFC Military Policeman (when on duty) directs a SSG to do something it "can" become a lawful order (if the situation requires it) and the SSG must comply. In this case it's not much different the SPCs weren't asked to do anything illegal, or immoral so there should not have been a question. The second SGT, after two directives should have assisted in the situation. If the NCOs fail to enforce the standards it will only lend to the undermining of authority. Yes, the NCOs and the chain of command put it all on paper (counseling, ART-15, UCMJ) but this does nothing to maintain the respect and confidence in the leadership.

The SSG should not have had to be involved, it should have all been handled by the SGT(s).

Response by SPC David S. made Nov 17 at 2014 10:23 AM

2014-11-17T10:23:52-05:00

Being a SPC if a SGT tells me to do something I do it. I might not be happy about it but from what I remember the Army was never concerned about me being happy.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 1:10 PM

2014-11-18T13:10:54-05:00

I have been in this same situation, actually just a few months ago. E-6 and below were staying in open bay barracks. I was working when my unit arrived at the barracks and by the time I got to the barracks all the bottom bunks were claimed. There were many specialists and a few PFCs that I could have moved but did not. What good would it do? I'm not really gaining any respect by forcing someone onto a top bunk. You have to pick and choose the right moments to use rank and something as trivial as a top bunk is probably not the best time.

Response by SSG Marco Mancilla made Nov 18 at 2014 4:45 PM

2014-11-18T16:45:02-05:00

personally I did not think of myself to much as a SSG. Sometimes I did not get the respect I wished for because I expected to come in a natural way, I rarely demanded anything. I guess it was some of my fault for not being aggressive enough. I tried to treat others the way I would like to be treated and for that I was perceived week. Now that I am retired; I find myself reflecting on what happened quit often. If I had to do it all over again, I would tried to make my accent disappear that would had make my life a bit easier. I thank full for everyone that helped me make it to retirement.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2014 6:08 AM

2014-11-19T06:08:50-05:00

I think the NCO and the Specialist both couldn't handled things differently. I personally lead by example and treat my soldiers the way I want to be treated. Regardless of rank, it's just a bunk And unfortunately Ive seen examples of this as well. Now if the NCO had a physical condition where he needed the top bunk ( sprang ankle, hurt knee, etc.) then he by all means needs the bottom bunk, but the specialist shouldn't argue or disregard an order from a NCO unless its unlawful unethical. But the NCO outranks the specialist so therefore I believe if he told the specialist to move its not the specialist job to question the request he should've moved and if he still had an issue take it to his leadership ( which prob would say suck it up lol). I've noticed that disrespect to NCO's has become an increasing problem with the new "hurt feeling, offended" age of soldiers ( not all just seems like more and more nowadays ) and we need to start reinforcing as a unit size element to show respect where it's due and not because you "like" a guy or not! Leadership structure is a key aspect that has kept us the greatest military power in the world for a long time ( can't quote exactly how long) so don't fix something that isn't broken!! Of course this is just my opinion what do I know??

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2014 9:05 PM

2014-11-20T21:05:50-05:00

From a soldier's point of view. You should respect the rank no questions asked. When it's time to go downrange soldiers will remember how you act as a leader and that determines how much of your back is really begin protected when im a hostile environment. The soldier should have moved but then again we eat the same food, drink the same water, and fight the same battles. So why should it matter what bunk u have to sleep on. Being a soldier you learn to be diverse so that you can adapt to different situations.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2014 9:55 PM

2014-11-20T21:55:14-05:00

I'm pretty sure I would have taken all of the NCOs into another room and fixed the problem. Rank makes you the senior not the superior.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 11:59 PM

2014-11-27T23:59:23-05:00

It is a matter of proper perspective. While Army Leadership doctrine, the UCMJ, and the LOAC assign our Corps with certain privileges, the abuse of those privileges constitute an egregious breach of good order and discipline while also destroying trust and respect.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 12:03 AM

2014-11-28T00:03:03-05:00

Assuming the SGT comoported himself appropriately, the SPC was wrong for not moving at the first request and the other SGTs were wrong for not having the moral courage to cover down.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 8:31 PM

2014-11-28T20:31:41-05:00

First, without knowledge of the barrack space, I wouldn't put NCOs and Junior Enlisted in the same room if I could help it. Secondly, in the situation that you describe, the SPC should have gotten up and just moved.

Now to answer your over-all question of \\Is the phrase "Rank has its privileges" against the NCO creed?\\

Absolutely not. The creed does not say that I will let you (Junior Enlisted) have the first choice of well... anything. It does say that I will look out for your welfare. Welfare does not equate to having a bottom bunk. Even the old BOSS (Better opportunity for Single Soldiers) afforded more square feet of living space to those of senior rank.

What you are speaking of in your scenario is the grossly inflated sense of entitlement that is pervasive in our formations today. Young Soldiers need to realize that nothing is owed to them save the LES on the first and fifteenth. AND even that can be taken away/forfeited under specific circumstances.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Nov 29 at 2014 1:37 PM

2014-11-29T13:37:57-05:00

I don't think it violates the creed and IMHO its not an unreasonable request. In the O ranks we did the same things. If a MAJ came in and asked a LT to move, they did it. Its a matter of respect for the request by the senior individual. Ok, seems a little foolish but with the rank comes that privilege. SSG Private RallyPoint Member addresses the line in the creed. I personally don't feel that telling a young SP4 to take a top bunk is, "attaining pleasure or profit" I do fully agree that taking care of troops is top priority - making sure they eat, bathe, sleep, etc., before we do is a given. No details given on the situation but if the NCO got belligerent in his request or did something unprofessional, then they would be in the wrong in their approach.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Nov 29 at 2014 5:39 PM

2014-11-29T17:39:03-05:00

The "privilege" of rank is to facilitate leadership and other responsibilities.
There are a number of reasons why a choice of bunk may be made for the betterment of the squad. Proximity to the LT's "office" is one good reason when selecting/assigning bunks in open bay quarters. If the NCO has responsibility for "night checks", having him jump off of a top bunk every other hour isn't exactly conducive to quality rest for anyone.

Yes, Rank has its "privilege", but it can not be divorced from its responsibilities. Rank does not, nor should it ever, entitle or satisfy want. It's purpose is to answer need.

Response by SPC Paul Shene III made Dec 3 at 2014 3:49 PM

2014-12-03T15:49:14-05:00

The corollary to this is shit rolls down hill. Always has.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 8:38 PM

2014-12-03T20:38:45-05:00

From Army Leadership doctrine all the way to the Laws of Armed Conflict, there privileges assigned to military leaders not afforded to lower ranks. This is done to facilitate the use of legitimate authority. If someone doesn't like this, I have a simple three-step program that will help them out: 1) Man up, 2) Grow a work ethic, and 3) Get promoted.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2014 1:03 PM

2014-12-10T13:03:29-05:00

Leon Panera's Legacy new soldiers ...

Response by Cpl Phil Hsueh made Dec 10 at 2014 1:04 PM

2014-12-10T13:04:03-05:00

This situation certainly goes against what were taught about leadership in the Marine Corps, in the Corps we were taught that for NCOs troop welfare always came first, officers it was second only after mission accomplishment. How that played out was that in the field the chow line always went in reverse order of rank with the lowest ranking members of the unit were first in line with the officers and Staff NCOs serving everyone. So this situation would go against the tenants of Marine Corps leadership since you wouldn't be looking out for your Marines if you tried to kick a lower enlisted out of his rack just because you wanted the bottom rack.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2014 1:33 PM

2014-12-10T13:33:34-05:00

I think the situation could've been handled much differently, I think there is an aire that people think that rank does have it's privelges. As an audiological technician at an SRRC site, I've had to tell a BG that she does have to take another hearing exam despite taking one two days ago. But it's a matter of communication. Another part of the NCO creed is "I will communicate consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed" Part of that I would assume is if you give a command to a soldier and they do not understand it or is curious as to why, I don't neccessarily see it as them being impertinent or insubordinate, it could very well be a communication problem and can be used at a on the spot teaching lesson. Reasoning for why the SGT wanted the top bunk: explain to the soldier that though you got there first, the SGT is older and not as spry as he once was. Also, he is a sergeant and when you're told to move, you move, whether you like it or not. The Army is not a democracy. As far as obtaining pleasure, profit or personal safety, I don't think any of this would be considered pleasure, but a betterment for the entire team. If you have an injured SGT, the entire team suffers on the mission. It's like having the latest computer but an old busted keyboard.

Response by SGT Tyler G. made Feb 23 at 2015 4:05 AM

2015-02-23T04:05:05-05:00

As others have said, the NCO creed states that you shall not use your grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal safety. Therefore yes, "rank has its privileges" is against the NCO creed and the Sergeant was in the wrong. However, if say he had a medical reason for needing a bottom bunk, I'd say that would be an exception, though that doesn't seem to be the case. I'd also add that even though it should never be an order, that the junior enlisted in this case would respect their NCO enough to consider the request, especially considering the age of the NCO. But of course he shouldn't be under any obligation.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Feb 24 at 2015 11:26 PM

2015-02-24T23:26:14-05:00

You move...whine about it later with your buddies if you wish. At the end of the day, you move for the higher ranking. It is a bunk for Fs sake. This is why we can't have nice things...

Response by SGT Mike Sears made Feb 25 at 2015 9:22 AM

2015-02-25T09:22:28-05:00

I think the important distinction here (and no disrespect is meant) that this was a National Guard unit. I got out of active duty 11 years ago but I know how most of the NCOs that I served with would have handled this. We would have supported each other by smoking that E4 until he thought his arms were going to fall off and while he was being smoked his stuff would have been moved for him, then he would have been instructed that if did something like that again he would be written up for insubordination so a paper trail for an AR15 could be started. God help us with the sisification of the Army. I know an officer would not be house with lowly enlisted, but if you were in the field and the Platoon leader came to where you (an E5-E6) were bunking and said he needed it and you needed to move on would you tell him to go suck eggs?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 6:43 PM

2015-02-25T18:43:28-05:00

Having spent ,my 1st 7 1/2 years enlisted this is my opinion. As an E5 if I walked into the situation above I would not have asked anyone to move. I would have just slept on the top bunk, but if you walk into a room as an NCO and a SPC does not offer you to take his/her bottom bunk out of respect for your seniority then I have to ask my self why? I would not make them move but having been a SPC I can tell you that I willingly gave up things so that those senior to me could get them. I understood that they had been through more and done more and already walked in my shoes so why would I make them walk in my shoes again because I feel I am owed something already. I care a great deal for all my Soldiers and them and their families well being is extremely important to me. I will be fair but firm with them, I will expect greatness from them I will devote all my heart and soul to ensuring they are successful. What kind of unit or climate has an E4 that would not feel the SGT has earned the right to have the bottom bunk. Its just a bunk but it can be symbolic to the overall climate.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 2:54 PM

2015-03-11T14:54:15-04:00

I agree, this entitlement is what makes units miserable. I saw this when I was enlisted. You get paid more because you carry more responsibility. You also do not inherent a license to disregard rules and regulations. I have seen NCOs fired by Division Commanders for adapting such attitudes. I have watched CSMs jump in and land on top of standing men. The backbone is not to be badge entitlement. You can call you self whatever you want but if you do not rise to the position you are just a pay grade. This is why thank Hod for firm CSMs and 1SGs.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 7:54 PM

2015-03-11T19:54:37-04:00

I have never met a leader worth a damn that would have uttered the phrase "rank has its privileges".

This situation is one of respect. The NCO "requests" one of the young E-4s move bunks. No one wants to move, but that NCO deserves to be afforded the respect commensurate with his grade and position. If the SPCs fail to do that, they are undisciplined and probably poorly led. There are more than a few things wrong with this situation.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 12 at 2015 7:43 PM

2015-03-12T19:43:44-04:00

I remember when rank was about responsibility, not privilege...

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 12 at 2015 8:37 PM

2015-04-12T20:37:39-04:00

I was always told to follow the orders of superiors and bitch about it later.

Response by SFC Walter Mack made Apr 12 at 2015 9:38 PM

2015-04-12T21:38:53-04:00

Rank certainly hath its privileges, but I don't think demanding a junior Soldier move to another bunk is among them. If they all just got there, perhaps. If the SGT had an injury that justified a bottom bunk, ok. I personally would have just taken a top bunk, because I'm a man, and I can climb a bunk.

That said, if there's a trash bag in the bay, and it needs to go out, I'm not taking it. Bite me SPC, do work. Time to sweep? I'm going to supervise. Are we driving somewhere? I'll TC that vehicle while the SPC drives.

Rank also has it's responsibilities though, so the privileges are earned and deserved. I don't have a specialist planning schedules for 24/7 hospital coverage or signing civilian pay checks. I do it. It all evens out.

Response by SPC David Shaffer made Apr 12 at 2015 11:36 PM

2015-04-12T23:36:29-04:00

When I was serving, I was just happy to sleep most of the time. Those were the days ;)

Response by SPC Carrie Cates made Jun 3 at 2015 10:04 PM

2015-06-03T22:04:00-04:00

That new SPC should have been pushing after the first ignored "request". Article 15 after second "request".

Response by SGT Andrew Bronell made Jun 24 at 2015 11:25 AM

2015-06-24T11:25:50-04:00

RHIP it will come to all

Response by PV2 Adam Young made Jun 25 at 2015 11:40 AM

2015-06-25T11:40:50-04:00

Exactly why I wanted out. Respect is earned not given, just because you have the stripes doesn't mean you deserve them. Plus I will not use my rank for personal profit or pleasure comes to mind, placing your troops before yourself does too.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jun 25 at 2015 10:31 PM

2015-06-25T22:31:31-04:00

One of the Specialist should have moved without making a stink. I would say the newly promoted Specialist should move.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2015 2:39 AM

2015-06-26T02:39:05-04:00

First problem was that he asked.

If he had a legitimate reason, such as he would be constantly in and out of the bed due to reports, checking on work/duties/responsibilities, then he was fully in the right. The leadership should be near the door, at the bottom if in bunks, so they can easily be found by runners/leadership and their subordinates. This could have been easily avoided if the NCO leadership said from the outset that Junior Soldiers would be on the top bunks, probably not popular but there it is, we are in the military not the boyscouts.

I've seen a few comments that say Soldiers come first. Negative, mission comes first. Taking care of Soldiers is NOT about coddling them.

Response by CPT Bill McNeely made Jun 26 at 2015 12:30 PM

2015-06-26T12:30:04-04:00

I started my career off as as enlisted sailor in the Navy. petty officers E-4 - e6 lived with us. Everybody just knew the middle racks for the petty officers with e6 priority. My lowly e1 5'8 self knew my ass belonged in the bottom bunk.