Is there a line between corrective training & bad leadership?

2016-06-12T01:55:58-04:00

I firmly believe every situation is unique, every Soldier is different.

There is a time, place, and reason for everything.

With that said, is there a magical line between "corrective training" and simply-put: bad leadership?

http://www.ncosupport.com/army-counseling-statement/corrective-training-army.html

What is Army Corrective Training?

If a Soldier shows up to formation late, corrective training is in order. Making the Soldier wear a clock around his or her neck for a week is not corrective training.

Response by PO1 Tony Holland made Jun 12 at 2016 3:05 AM

2016-06-12T03:05:38-04:00

While humorous in and of itself public shaming is probably a reach too far --- praise in public, punish in private.

Response by 2d Lt Mitch Curry made Jun 12 at 2016 8:07 AM

2016-06-12T08:07:29-04:00

There's corrective training and then there's going too far. Although this pic seems to be back before the Army re-regulated their line between corrective training and abuse of soldiers, I feel like this still goes way beyond what anyone should've done to smoke him in that situation.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Jun 13 at 2016 1:25 PM

2016-06-13T13:25:01-04:00

I agree that every situation is unique and every soldier is different. If I were to say that there was a "magical line", it would be anything that involved actual physical harm to the individual. I personally don't care if someone is embarrassed. If it resolves the issue, then they won't have a reason to be embarrassed anymore. They might even have a funny story to tell their friends in the future.

Let's say a soldier thought it'd be smart to wear all black PT clothes during a 0400 run. It would not be appropriate to have him jump in front of every car to test for visibility. But I might strap him with a big and bright road guard vest and have him report in with his squad leader after every mile to ensure we didn't lose him.

Response by SSG Robert Cole made Jun 16 at 2016 7:50 AM

2016-06-16T07:50:03-04:00

Some soldiers do require that you go that extra mile. But are you using public humiliation as a training tool or are you just shaming the soldier for your own revenge? Regardless of the method employed, there has to be room for the soldier to achieve a positive public recognition once completed. Then he/she can redeem themselves.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Jun 16 at 2016 8:41 AM

2016-06-16T08:41:04-04:00

Hmmm, You said "I firmly believe every situation is unique, every Soldier is different."
You learn as you go.
1. Had a soldier who was a truly great soldier - until he got drunk.
2. I had a poor soldier who was fixable.
3. I had a poor soldier that wasn't.
4. I had a NCO that pissed everyone off. But made his soldiers change socks, shave and do sponge baths. Oddly enough everyone was fed, checked for ticks (an expression only unless you've been to Fort Knox) and were never held for GI Parties like every other section. He made sure his troops were up to snuff.
Would mothers and Congress been happy at his methods. I shudder.

Response by SGT James Hammons made Jun 16 at 2016 9:02 AM

2016-06-16T09:02:41-04:00

Corrective Training is never embarrassing. If you do it because you care about the soldiers and their career then that makes a difference. If you do it to be mean it will not work.

Response by SGT Josh Suchoski made Jun 16 at 2016 9:04 AM

2016-06-16T09:04:52-04:00

All action is derived from motive. If your motive is to help that soldier get right, so that they don't die in theater, then your leadership is good (even if the corrective training sucks). If you are making the soldier suffer unduly, for a laugh or a feeling of power, then your leadership is in question.

Response by Sgt Paul McCarthy made Jun 16 at 2016 9:30 AM

2016-06-16T09:30:31-04:00

Of course there is. Sometimes, however, that line needs to be toed a little bit and even crossed if need be. This is entirely dependent on the situation and the recipient. The end result and goal must be the improvement in performance.

Response by SGM Nathan Thomas made Jun 16 at 2016 10:25 AM

2016-06-16T10:25:20-04:00

THe photo that I am looking at in no way is corrective training. That is humiliation, back in the day there were some NCOs that were out of control doing stupid stuff like having a young troop carry a big wrench on a chain for losing a tool and so on. I am assuming this soldier lost their ID card and I would have them learn the different ways lost and or stolen ID cards could be used to do bad things and have them give a class on it. Also, have them at a place where ID cards are required to be shown like the commissary and have them there checking ID cards, which helps the commissary and at the same time impresses upon the troop the importance of ID cards. Just two small examples of corrective actions.

Response by MSG David Smoak made Jun 16 at 2016 10:47 AM

2016-06-16T10:47:41-04:00

Before ANY corrective training or even a counseling statement is written, you should always ask yourself how it will appear to the Commander three levels up. So at the company level imagine the Brigade Commander reading what you are prescribing....because it is very likely to happen! Between social media, family complaints to the post commander, IG, etc your actions will likely be scrutinized by very senior people. Plus if none of that happens and the Soldier is eventually processed for separation, those statements/training will be looked at by very senior people again when it comes to discharge processing.
So as long as your training meets that standard, lead the way NCO!

Response by MSG Anthony DiFondi made Jun 16 at 2016 10:50 AM

2016-06-16T10:50:04-04:00

I had a Soldier who couldn't make a formation time for the life of him. I was constantly getting chewed out for it. We had a 4 day weekend coming up. I advised the Soldier that we were going to do corrective training for his lack of being prompt for the entire 4 day weekend. I actually gave him the option, go in front of the Commander for an Article 15 or do the corrective training. He chose the corrective training. I had that PFC report to me in the barrack every hour with a different uniform on. First in MOPP 4, then in Class A's, BDUs, PT (winter gear), Class Bs, etc. He did this for the entire 4 day weekend. I allowed him 6 hours of sleep each night and he slept in the barrack. The deal was that he could not miss even one of those formations or he would still go to see the Commander for the Article 15. That PFC made every formation and after that weekend, he appreciated being prompt. I corrected the Soldier and it only cost him his weekend (and my weekend because I had to be there). It worked. Unfortunately, he was fat too and they put him out 6 months later for weight control, but he made formation. I did not treat the corrective training as ridicule or cruelty. He reported on time and then was dismissed. This was done so as to not be monitored by many, so he retained most of his pride. Corrective training can be done, but you have to do it right!

Response by CMSgt Lloyd French made Jun 16 at 2016 1:11 PM

2016-06-16T13:11:31-04:00

In leadership--whether you are training, watching, leading, coaching, ... whatever--there is only one rule you must follow: The Golden Rule, "Treat others the way you would want to be treated."

Is humiliation your favorite emotion? Is anger another? Do you prefer being called stupid, an idiot, or an imbecile? I imagine you get VERY receptive to corrective training when it includes some of these.

In basic training, your leaders have two jobs: 1) Indoctrinate you into a disciplined, military mindset; and 2) Prepare you to work as a team and to be victorious and survive in combat. Sometimes the indoctrination and discipline portion requires leadership deviation. Habits (like character) can be hard to change. Listening to commands, attention to detail, preparedness--all are necessary components for unit and individual victory and survival. Forget your ID, your dog tags, your ammo, or which side the safety is on...all can have devastating effects depending on the situation. Push-ups, laps, and other training-related consequences will better serve the leader and the trainee in the long run...all humiliation teaches is how to humiliate.

Leaders lead...there is no room for immature, ill-advised, and directed emotional trauma. The more you treat a person like a responsible adult, the more they are likely to act like one...and pay it forward.

Response by SGT Jay Ehrenfeld made Jun 16 at 2016 2:18 PM

2016-06-16T14:18:17-04:00

That picture or the NCO did bad decision on that a soldier correct training.
As a former NCO u have make sure the training is not reflected back on you as this NCO did on the soldier it reflects on his sgt.

Response by MSG Rogelio Watson made Jun 16 at 2016 6:20 PM

2016-06-16T18:20:26-04:00

Always give your Soldiers a chance to correct themselves, if the situation is not severe, do a duffle bag drill, Cavalry, HooaH!, then from there you may want to document it and then UCMJ, depends on the Soldier response. We have to take care of our Soldiers and lead them in the right direction.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2016 8:32 PM

2016-06-16T20:32:13-04:00

What NCOs fail to learn is there is corrective training and corrective action. When we all learn the difference that will stop hazing and embarrassing soldiers. I honestly see nothing funny about that photo and think like a NCO as a private what would you do. I'd tell tell that SSG/SFC or whoever tried to embarrass me to kiss my ass now I'm hit with disrespect of a NCO. Would you do it as a leader if not don't make your soldiers do it. Toooooo easy right.

Response by SFC David Davenport made Jun 17 at 2016 12:31 PM

2016-06-17T12:31:42-04:00

Magic line no but there certainly is a difference between corrective training and punishment. This always comes down to the individual circumstances. Some of the corrective training I did with one Soldier would be perfect and have great results. If I tried it with another Soldier it would have been completely inappropriate. A large part of good Leadership is adjusting your actions to meet the situation and Soldiers involved. Let your experience be your guide and never act in anger but only with the Soldier's best interest.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2016 12:48 PM

2016-06-20T12:48:29-04:00

Lead them the way you wanted led, or want to be led!!
No need to demean nor humiliate!!
The corrective training must fit the deficiency though!!

Response by CSM Louis Rothenstein made Jun 21 at 2016 9:28 AM

2016-06-21T09:28:59-04:00

Being retired more than 30 years, I may be completely out of date. I can see where the inappropriate application of corrective training might be linked to less than great leadership in some units. I have seen good programs and others not so good. When I was a 1SG, my commanders gave me a lot of leeway in providing corrective training - often in place of the official Article 15. I had floors in the orderly room one could shave in but also we tried to apply something that would improve the soldier's performance. For some, correspondence course enrollment in weak areas as pointed out by the soldier's supervisory chain. For others, it was extra hours assisting the Mess, Motor or Supply Sergeant in duties if the soldier's weak area might be helped. It was a company-wide program. When assigned to the 25th ID in Hawaii a couple of years after Vietnam, MG Brooks, Div CG had a division-wide program called School of the Soldier. When a soldier goofed up or goofed off, he could work it off by attendance at the "School." It incorporated hard physical activity - carrying a ruck from the Division flatlands and double-timing up to the top of Kole-Kole Pass on Saturday mornings. It was tough - it was tougher on soldiers working at other than grunt jobs. The effective part of this school was that it was there for all to see and it did keep up physical readiness levels. There were few repeats. The division-wide program was professionally run and NCO's who ran it worked harder than all those attending. It was preparatory training for several wanting to go to Ranger or SF training. Regarding PT, as a junior NCO I recalled having to run PT for the unit overhead for those in billets while the off-post folks got a pass. These inequities are pretty much gone now but I found that having the oldest guys still participate was important for morale and readiness. For us really old guys - E8-E9's, we had our own PT formation. It was still the Tropic Lightning Mile (5 miles) but at a bit slower pace. General Brooks often trotted along with us with questions like "how are we doing" or "what kind of problems do we have?" In essence, I would say that the success of corrective training is better if it is organization-wide rather than just company or unit level. Regarding counseling statements. The closer to the soldier, the better. Squad members counseled by the squad leader, critiqued by the PSG teaches and trains everyone.
That is what I recall from my army of the last century. CSM Lou Rothenstein

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2018 5:21 AM

2018-03-06T05:21:40-05:00

Corrective training is a tool to be used in order to correct a deficiency. If someone is habitually late, have them show up to formation 15 minutes early; if someone is showing up to work unshaven, have them carry a razor and shaving cream on their person.....but in no way, shape or form should there be a display of a soldier that would/could bring embarrassment to him or her. That to me is poor leadership and should be nipped in the bud.

Response by CPO Donald Crisp made Apr 3 at 2019 2:30 PM

2019-04-03T14:30:44-04:00

Seeing this picture clearly shows the leader who imposed this lesson, while somewhat original, went a bit too far.

In response to your question, of course there is a difference. I believe if the corrective training (lesson) you are trying to get a soldier or sailor to learn from should fit the issue. In the photos, this was a pure and simple use of public shaming. If this was at a field command, I would remind the leader this is not boot camp. I believe as a peer, it is not just your responsibility, but your duty to address the issue.

TEACH, do not humiliate subordinates. If it is in public (other military members in the area), address the issue immediately, then a one on one (or more as necessary) would be in order, in my opinion. Nothing is ever truly gained but shaming, whereas everything is gained by training!

Response by SGT Mary G. made May 28 at 2019 6:10 PM

2019-05-28T18:10:38-04:00

Here's some lower enlisted quasi-corrective training. I had just arrived at my new duty station and was assigned to a room with two other soldiers. We were E-4 (me), E-3, and E-2. Got a long just fine. The other two had been roommates for a while and were friends already. There was a small refrigerator in the room which I did not use. After about a week of being told the refrigerator needed defrosting after inspection each morning I finally went to the SGT and said that I was unwilling to clean the refrigerator because I didn't use it and that it had needed to be defrosted and cleaned before I arrived. But I also didn't want us to get written up because of it. She suggest that I simply unplug the refrigerator. I just really did not want to do that . . . to be so manipulative, but I did.
I did parts in the motor pool so worked very long hours especially getting everything straightened out and up to standard. When I returned that evening my roommates had finished mopping up the water, and were almost finished cleaning the refrigerator. I was sure they would have figured out what had happened, But they were puzzled and had no idea. I never said a word about it. I think the SGT probably plugged it back in shortly before they returned when she checked the room and saw the deed had been done. It was a training moment for all of us - me, a way to resolve the dilemma, and my roommates a way to motivate them to defrost and clean their refrigerator.