Is there a perception that discipline is better in one service versus another?

COL Mikel J. Burroughs — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:29:58 -0500

Is there a perception that discipline is better in one service versus another?

The real question is: Does one service branch feel they are more disciplined then other service branches and they maintain that discipline better/longer?

Looking for professional feedback from all the service branches on how they feel their discipline training differs from each of the other services and who get's the most discipline or is it the same across all service branches?

Has it changed over the last 60 years since Vietnam or prior?

It is better or worse?

It is based on the different generations?

The reason I ask this question is because of the responses that I received about an incident (involving a Marine not removing or putting his cover on too early before leaving the MCX). It involved a very young Marine, Junior Officer Marine, and a SgtMaj (got it right this time) and in most of the Reponses many Marines could fathom that a Marine would ever do such a thing.

In some instances, there were Marines that did and had similar experiences. Likewise, there were other service branch members that indicated the same thing (Impossible) and then there were those who had come across similar incidents and shared their experiences.

I'm not calling out anyone - stay focused on the questions above - thanks

Response by SSG Audwin Scott made Jan 20 at 2016 9:33 AM

SSG Audwin Scott — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:33:21 -0500

Of course there is. Every branch is going to say their form of discipline is better than others.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2016 10:10 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:10:31 -0500

Not a perception to me. I have seen it first hand.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jan 20 at 2016 10:24 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:24:26 -0500

The issue is that the definition of Discipline VARIES wildly between Services and even "Branches" within the Services. Combine that with societal changes, and "nostalgia" (our flawed memory) make us perceive levels of discipline differently.

A Marine looking at an Airman is going to view their Discipline completely differently, but their focus is completely different. When I hear Soldiers talking about going to parade rest and attention for NCOs & Officers respectively, it's just a foreign concept. That doesn't mean I'm not respectful when speaking to them, just that I view that step as unnecessary and nothing to do with "discipline." However, there are little things Marines do that I'm sure other services thing are bat#$%^# crazy that we consider "discipline."

The example I try to use is Sailors on ship are some of the hardest working people I've ever seen. The demand is just constant. Compare that to a Marine on ship, and we look lazy as hell. We're "cargo." Now take Doc. We love Doc. Marines will kill for Doc. But Doc is Navy, and there's a huge difference between what we expect of Doc and what we expect of Marines regarding a lot of "discipline" issues. Things like "shaggy" haircuts, and "relaxed" attitudes. Now Doc is one of us. I won't ever let anyone say otherwise... but there is a different "expectation."

Response by 1LT Aaron Barr made Jan 20 at 2016 10:39 AM

1LT Aaron Barr — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:39:33 -0500

Not really sure how to answer this; I think every branch has areas of intense discipline and others in which it's lacking. Hell, the Marines can talk a mean game about their basic but I'd bet that a Navy nuclear reactor operator's MUCH more disciplined than any basic trainee given the level of responsibility they hold. I was in Field Artillery and during OBC, the 'transmit' button to send a fire order to the gun line was known as the 'Go To Jail' button because if you screwed up the data, that's where you were headed.

Response by PO2 Steven Erickson made Jan 20 at 2016 10:42 AM

PO2 Steven Erickson — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:42:46 -0500

As a squid, I've got to hand it to Uncle Sammie's Misguided Children. And geez, they got the coolest dress uniform (sorry, Army).

Now, it's quite possible that what I'm attributing as discipline is, in fact, merely fanaticism... lol

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2016 10:49 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:49:32 -0500

none ... PC is getting in the way, and all those lower the standard stuff is doing their good work. Also the feel good movement had make a big impact on all of them too. The story from older enlist or commissioned ... scare the crap out of me ...

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Jan 20 at 2016 11:14 AM

SSG Warren Swan — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 11:14:29 -0500

I won't say one has it over another, but depending on the personnel involved, it makes a big difference. Speaking for me and my experiences in the Army, you never really wanted to see the PSG. But you DAMN SURE didn't want to see 1SG or CSM. I've been in line and MACOM units, and it was those SNCCO's that ruled the roost. But in all honesty, I think there is a semblance where the Army and Marines means of discipline and how it's given, the Navy has the DRB and Mast, and the AF....has the AF. Even being with them, I don't understand some of their stuff. But it ALL depends on the individual, not the service culture. The Army is not a sh*tbag, but there are lots of sh*tbags in the Army.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Jan 20 at 2016 11:46 AM

Maj Chris Nelson — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 11:46:24 -0500

I have experience in Active Army, Army Guard, Air Guard, and Air Force. Here is what I have noticed: 1. Army was the most dedicated to Command structure, Customs and courtesy. Army Guard was a close second. Air Guard was much less in this category, and the Air Force was weak in this area, tho they tried sometimes (keep in mind I was medical, so this is also a bit different creature). BUT with that being said, you must remember the mission of the people. Army/Army Guard: Ground based war fighter.... orders to "take that bunker/hill" are not to be question, just done. (I suspect Marine Corps is very similar). Air Force is a much more TECHNICAL branch (along with Navy would be my suspicion) They seldom have to give orders or react to orders of "take that hill/bunker".... they need to maintain the ability for the lower ranks to "free think" to a degree to address issues/problems. Another thing is that will also have impact is that 1. AF is the youngest branch and does not have the extensive history to back customs/courtesy 2. Probably one of the higher educated branches....more "per capita" higher education degrees throughout the entire rank spectrum. Good or bad, this WILL impact how people treat/address each other to some degree. Also understand that the AF was set back YEARS when senior leadership pushed hard for the AF to present a greater CORPERATE Appearance..... This hurt....and I think we still feel some of the effects...

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Jan 20 at 2016 11:55 AM

LTC Stephen F. — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 11:55:01 -0500

I would have hoped you would have offered an other choice COL Mikel J. Burroughs. The perception of the grass is greener or in this case discipline is better is a personal one formed over time and may or may not be linked to reality. I selected Army; but, I believe that Army and Marines tend to have higher discipline overall and recognize there are specific organization in USAF, Navy and USCG which have very high discipline.
If you offered SOCOM and the special operations forces, I would heave selected that choice as having the highest level of discipline and maintaining it.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2016 12:10 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 12:10:54 -0500

One thing the Marines do differently is that they burn the concept of rank, discipline, and following orders into Marines from the very beginning and make it happen in the line units. Everyone is accountable to each other, and every Marine is going to square away a messed up individual and do what needs to be done without being asked because they are part of a team.
Got to hand it to them, albeit grudgingly.
I have to spend a lot of time explaining "why" something needs doing and a certain way.

Response by Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin made Jan 20 at 2016 2:04 PM

Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:04:41 -0500

In my experience I have seen folks confuse the lack stupidity with a lack of discipline.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jan 20 at 2016 2:26 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:26:17 -0500

I don't think there's much to argue about here. The Marines are far more disciplined than any other branch and I can't imagine anyone who doesn't agree.

While stationed at Tripler Army Medical Center I spent a few nights as Duty Officer. There was a room for me adjacent to the Emergency Ward and I soon learned why. Most of the "excitement" occurred in the ER. One night an orderly came to get me to help with some kind of "problem". I had been fast asleep and walked out without my glasses. Thus, I was still a bit bleary eyed as I walked towards the commotion emanating from the ER. As I neared the scene a Marine appeared in front of me acting belligerently. I simply barked "Make Way" and he disappeared. The next person I met was a young captain, a doctor, who was whiter than his lab coat. Although just a lieutenant at the time I asked him what the hell was going on. He was staring past me when he asked what I did to the Marine. What Marine? Oh, the one I had barked at. The one who was braced against the wall at attention. He and a Navy Petty Officer had been brought in by the Shore Patrol to be patched up before being returned to their commands. They had been fighting on Hotel Street in Honolulu and the Marine wanted to continue the fight in the ER. No one there could control him until I showed up. The medical personnel may have had rank, but they didn't know how to use it. It was easier with a Marine than any other service member. All you had to do was exert your authority and they responded better than anyone.

The simple fact is that if you are going to build the best fighting man in the world, you had better be able to control 'em.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Jan 20 at 2016 2:47 PM

Col Joseph Lenertz — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:47:14 -0500

I said Marines, based on the most traditional definition of discipline, "training people to obey a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience." But different services have different age and rank and education demographics, and different missions. So the degree of top-down driven discipline varies across the services, as it should. I would say personal initiative and daring innovation (many times in spite of the rules) is the hallmark of the US military though, not discipline. Those are the qualities that have earned respect from other nations' militaries. WWII German soldiers and Japanese admirals respected our initiative and daring, not our discipline.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Jan 20 at 2016 2:57 PM

SN Greg Wright — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:57:21 -0500

COL Mikel J. Burroughs I definitely think that the Navy reveres E-7+ more than sister services do, in my experience. But other than that, I hadn't noticed a huge difference.

Response by COL Ted Mc made Jan 20 at 2016 3:08 PM

COL Ted Mc — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 15:08:30 -0500

COL Mikel J. Burroughs - Mikel; I believe that EACH service believes that ITS discipline is "better".

[Of course each service is using a different definition of "better" so it really isn't surprising that each would rate themselves as #1.]

Surprisingly enough, each service just might be right - as far as the requirements of that particular service is concerned.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Jan 20 at 2016 3:32 PM

Capt Mark Strobl — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 15:32:27 -0500

I'd have to say that there is different types of discipline. I could not stare at a computer monitor for 8-hrs/day. I could not sleep on, or under, Mk-48 torpedoes. I could not land a plane atop an aircraft carrier. However, I could interpret maintenance reports, load out MPF ships, and prioritize work loads. Each MOS requires different types of discipline... and a complementary mindset to execute those duties. And these disciplines do not translate into PT scores, being clean shaven, and "snapping to" --for these are entirely different types of discipline.

But, I still voted for "Marines!"

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Jan 20 at 2016 3:45 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 15:45:06 -0500

I've heard of this one branch with a reputation for discipline....

Response by SGT Kristin Myers made Jan 20 at 2016 3:45 PM

SGT Kristin Myers — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 15:45:27 -0500

I used to be biased towards Army and the discipline we received and maintained. However, since being out and coming across all the various branches of service, I can say that for the majority of these personnel, their training and discipline is somewhat similar. I will say, though, that I feel the Army and Marines were more in your face than the other branches.

Response by SFC Pete Kain made Jan 20 at 2016 4:15 PM

SFC Pete Kain — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 16:15:05 -0500

Perception yes. Reality no. Just an opinion.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2016 7:23 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 19:23:20 -0500

Sir, From my observations during the time period 1968-1972, I would have to say the Marines had the best discipline. I can not speak about discipline since then.

Response by PO3 Rod Arnold made Jan 20 at 2016 9:28 PM

PO3 Rod Arnold — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:28:48 -0500

This is only an old sailor's opinion.
Discipline started as soon as I got off the bus for boot camp, and continued as I went into the Fleet. From the guy's I've talked to from other branches, discipline taught in boot camp was very similar. After the general transition from civilian to military (bootcamp) I believe discipline takes change throughout the branches. The discipline on board my ship off the coast of Vietnam, was very different from that of a Soldier or Marine fighting in the jungles of Vietnam. I would imagine the same holds true today!!!

Response by Capt Walter Miller made Jan 20 at 2016 10:29 PM

Capt Walter Miller — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 22:29:02 -0500

Is this a serious question?

Response by SSgt Terry P. made Jan 20 at 2016 11:14 PM

SSgt Terry P. — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 23:14:38 -0500

COL Mikel J. Burroughs Having served in 2 branches and served with other branches --I have to go with Marines--it stays even after you leave.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2016 11:59 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 23:59:47 -0500

Where is the "depends" option? We all talk about discipline, yet, look at those special forces personnel, always practical, and laid back. What one mean drill instructor will be furious about, these guys are just wanting you to do what needs to be done to get the job done. No one here can say they don't have discipline, they had to put up with much more BS and very physical and demanding training, than most will ever get. So, Sir, with all due respect, I prefer it depends for an answer.

Response by PO3 David Fries made Jan 21 at 2016 6:41 AM

PO3 David Fries — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 06:41:42 -0500

This really isn't much of a different question than "which branch thinks they are superior ". With questions like these, Marines are always going to come out on top. They are bred into discipline unlike any other.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Jan 21 at 2016 9:43 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 09:43:16 -0500

Darn sure it isn't the Navy. Working with sailors is like herding cats. Junior Officers even worse.

Response by SPC Duncan Koebrich made Jan 21 at 2016 6:01 PM

SPC Duncan Koebrich — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:01:07 -0500

That perception does not exist responsibly, for me, as I only have experience in the US Army, where a certain Drill Sergeant taught us that "discipline is the instant willing obedience to all lawful military authority, without supervision, and I will strive to be a well disciplined soldier, Drill Sergeant!". Within this context, I can only apply discipline as a consideration for myself responsibly. While I do feel that there have been failings regarding the "*lawful* military authority", I cannot understand their perspective and am fine with "staying in my lane".

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Jan 22 at 2016 5:38 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 17:38:23 -0500

Like most things, It is all smoke and Mirrors but for Style and Maintaining the Illusion I would give it to the Marines. They always carry themselves well and do dress up nice in that Dress Uniform.

Response by SSgt Rilene Ann made Jan 22 at 2016 6:28 PM

SSgt Rilene Ann — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 18:28:52 -0500

I work with a Marine Veteran who was on Iwo Jima and I am an Air Force veteran. He can say whatever he wants!

Response by LCpl Arrick Moore made Jan 22 at 2016 9:46 PM

LCpl Arrick Moore — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 21:46:46 -0500

Unfortunately, I believe that the USMC does have better discipline for the most part...

however... all it takes is that one undisciplined person within the ranks that is seen as a "go getter" to cause discipline to fall into the toilet...

There are a few things you can judge this by:
1. Look at the uniforms... unless in the field, you will see polished boots, ironed utilities, and a squared away look... I spent time on Fort Bragg while in the USMC, and when the Marines who are there for training ops go into the "main side" of the base from the field, and their field gear looks better than those who are sleeping in barracks, it goes to show the undiscipline that is normal.
2. Look at the weight problem that seems to have slipped from the civilian side into the military side... You will see a LOT more over weight people in all the other branches... YES, there are overweight in the USMC as well, but not nearly as many... and those who are, tend to get uniforms that hide it for the most part instead of looking like tommy boy and his "fat man in a little suit" act.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jan 23 at 2016 12:40 AM

COL Charles Williams — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 00:40:48 -0500

I will pick Army COL Mikel J. Burroughs , but I believe we all think our services do it better.... Most think the Marines have it tightest, and in some regards they certainly do, but I have seen things that lead me to question that belief. They run the tightest ship, at least outwardly. I believe the Marines believe are far above the rest of us. I would disagree, but I suspect we all view this thru our own rose colored glasses, so I am by default bias.

If I had to make a list... I would say....

Marines
Army
Navy
Coastguard
Air Force

I would list Reserves and Guard separately, as thing vary widely among the components.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Jan 23 at 2016 8:48 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 08:48:36 -0500

We had a saying in the Navy, "Run she may, but shine, she must." Sometimes what we see externally is a facade.

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made Jan 23 at 2016 1:06 PM

CDR Michael Goldschmidt — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 13:06:23 -0500

I have to say I believe Marine Officers and NCOs get more respect at a given rank than in any other service. Marines are action-oriented. I can't imagine a USMC Capt getting or taking shit from a subordinate.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2016 2:19 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 14:19:06 -0500

I would have to say yes, Sir. Whether those perceptions are indeed accurate, is another matter. Being a Sailor, I naturally feel the Navy (at least used to) focuses on the discipline required to ensure a relatively small group of personnel can act consistently at high levels over many months of deployment at sea. In our line of work, the days are often 18 hours plus, in freezing, wet conditions, or on blazing hot decks around tons of deadly moving machinery. What I experienced with the Army, in the field, was that the chain of command was less "top heavy", and leaders of all ranks carry more individual authority. This is no doubt a result of their mission, and the challenges involved. I will go so far as to say, and again, based solely on my own experiences, that Sailors are more readily assigned individual tasks with little supervision...owing to the fact that at sea, everyone is "essential personnel" in a technical field. As a counterpoint, I'll admit that the Army has a very good sense of "staying in one's lane".

Response by CW2 Carl Swanson made Jan 23 at 2016 6:40 PM

CW2 Carl Swanson — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:40:54 -0500

I'll say this, my time in the Corps created a certain mentality that I still carry today. When I switched over to the Army, it was initially difficult for me to fit in because the mind set was different about mission accomplishment, personal time, things like that. In the Corps, we were taught Instant Obedience to Orders, accomplish the mission (I don't care how). There is a great line in A Few Good Men...."Be careful down there in Gitmo, those Marines are fanatical" "Fanatical about what?" "About being Marines!"

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2016 6:41 PM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:41:04 -0500

We will see how all of this might change in the next few months when a very big change will happen.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2016 6:59 PM

LCpl Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:59:34 -0500

I was once told by a retired SSgt that the Armt is more disciplined than the Marines in a good way. Soldiers will respond without thinking and Marines with think first then react.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2016 7:25 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 19:25:40 -0500

Because the Marines doesn't really have a choice in the matter.

serious guys... picture it. Marines without overbearing discipline? Listen.. we have our fair share of general depravity in the army... and it's something I must commend the USMC for because male and female Marine alike are simply the most disgruntled, depraved, social deviants this nation has to offer. Marines are not born this way nor do they enter service this way. Marines are "forged in the crucible" of poor living standards and equipment that is more parts duct tape than actual equipment. So the discipline remains, all the nit picking bullshit, simply to keep all that hatred contained.

So I'll tip my hate you Marines out there, but at a distance... over here on the army side. With working equipment (sorta) enough food (generally) and enough ammo to accomplish the mission (usually)

Response by SGT Michael Szustak made Jan 23 at 2016 8:33 PM

SGT Michael Szustak — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 20:33:40 -0500

I've never seen a fat or overweight Marine. They always look sharp in uniform. Can't say the same for other branches.

Response by SGT Michael Szustak made Jan 23 at 2016 8:34 PM

SGT Michael Szustak — Sat, 23 Jan 2016 20:34:33 -0500

I've never seen a sloppy or overweight Marine. Can't say they same for the other branches.

Response by CPL Jay Freeman made Jan 24 at 2016 12:13 AM

CPL Jay Freeman — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 00:13:05 -0500

I believe it to be job specific not branch most true combat personal are very disciplined for many reasons. Where a desk jockey doesn't have to be.

Response by 2d Lt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2016 10:51 AM

2d Lt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 10:51:16 -0500

I would ask if a debate on discipline is even healthy for our joint service operations in general. It has been mentioned, but the services, and the various jobs within the services, are vastly different.

I'm not a Marine, and following orders isn't a life or death decision for me. I also have significantly more exposure to higher ranking individuals than a Junior NCO in Infantry. I'm a Human Resources Data Analyst in the Air Force, and I regularly work with people whose pay grades range from E-4 to O-7. If an O-5 walks into my office, I'm going to stand up. But that's where I'm going to diverge from some other counterparts, because at this point I do have a job to do. I'll offer the O-5 a seat, and we'll get to work. The Officers, NCOs, and Airmen in my building are professionals, in an office environment, in a headquarters building.

It's possible to have an amazing uniform, a 100 on your fitness test, perfect military bearing, and be a complete idiot. I'd rather have the slightly sloppy and borderline rude individual with a 75 on their fitness test who can understand a manning document or program an advanced database.

There are minimum levels of discipline that are necessary, but at the end of the day it matters more about what you need to do to get your job done, and less about looking pretty.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2016 11:51 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 11:51:57 -0500

Where is the poll that says all branches have discipline? I instill discipline to trainees on a daily bases. If you let a puppy piss on your floor every day for a week and then on the 8th day beat him for it. That puppy is going to look at you like your the messed up one. You showed with your actions or lack there of that pissing on the carpet was acceptable. You created that monster. I see this happening when I correct a random Soldier. They kind of look at me like I'm that NCO that has nothing else to do but correct people. Complacency is the issue. Marines have a hell of a marketing approach. I'm sure there is just as much shenanigans there as anywhere else.

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Jan 24 at 2016 10:22 PM

SSgt Jim Gilmore — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 22:22:51 -0500

Not a perception....it's fact!

Response by TSgt Marco McDowell made Jan 24 at 2016 11:16 PM

TSgt Marco McDowell — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 23:16:40 -0500

Discipline is whatever doesn't get you killed, demoted or put on your face. During my culture shock after leaving the Corps and entering the Air Force, I realized the perceptions of discipline were different. I could not be untaught after 10 years in the Marines so my remaining 10 in the Air Force made me adjust how I approached other airmen. They thought I was uptight, I thought they were nasty. We met half way and I didn't strangle anyone nor did they call me by my first name. Discipline!

Response by SPC Korey Kilburn made Jan 25 at 2016 11:14 AM

SPC Korey Kilburn — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 11:14:28 -0500

Nobody compares to the US Army Old Guard, not even the Marines.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2016 11:23 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:23:07 -0500

The Marines are the most disciplined of all the services. This is a fact.

Response by SFC Craig Dalen made Mar 22 at 2016 10:41 AM

SFC Craig Dalen — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 10:41:17 -0400

I believe that the Marines due hold a higher standard. In my opinion, the Army is getting too "politically correct". Sometimes a good exercise to correct a deficiency does work. Leaders are not here to make friends and to me it seems as if everyone is scared to get in trouble for disciplining a Soldier. Or for those of us that still use a variety of methods are being told we are too harsh...

Response by SFC J Fullerton made Mar 23 at 2016 2:27 PM

SFC J Fullerton — Wed, 23 Mar 2016 14:27:16 -0400

Discipline can be defined in many different ways. One can be highly disciplined in one area, and poorly disciplined in another. High standards of dress, fitness, and care of equipment is an indicator of a well disciplined unit. Poor decision making, lack of command and control, and failure to follow the ROE in a tactical environment is an indicator of a poorly disciplined unit. The two extremes can exist at the same time in the same unit, how is discipline evaluated then? See the "Esequiel Hernandez Incident"

Response by SPC Brandon Hamilton made Mar 29 at 2016 4:59 PM

SPC Brandon Hamilton — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 16:59:53 -0400

Discipline starts from as a child growing up at home.

Response by SGT Tony Clifford made Jul 26 at 2016 4:42 PM

SGT Tony Clifford — Tue, 26 Jul 2016 16:42:41 -0400

I would say that on the job Marines are probably the most disciplined branch followed by Army, Navy, and then the Air Force. After duty hours that is typically flipped. Marines and soldiers are typically the ones who are going to get arrested for a brawl.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2016 4:48 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Jul 2016 16:48:36 -0400

I won't actually post to the survey, simply because my response is too complicated for a simple answer.
Yes, It has changed a lot. Things in Garrison are much more stringent (at least in the Infantry world) about rank structure and courtesies (so much so that I think it sometimes detracts form the overall effectiveness of the "big team"). My grandfather and great-grandfather have both told me stories about how they would hang out with their leadership on the weekends, and they knew each other on a first-name basis, though they didn't use it at work.
In today's military, the discipline levels, from what I have seen, go as follows:
Marine Corps
Army
Navy
Air Force
Coast Guard.
In the Marines, they are EXTREMELY strict on discipline and Customs and Courtesies. The Army is strict, but not as much. The Navy is almost as strict as the Army, from what I have seen. I've seen Airmen call leaders and Officers by first name, and not use any type of "courtesy position (Parade Rest, Attention, etc)" when addressing them. And I have NEVER seen a Guardsman use Rank or "Courtesy positions" when talking to anyone. So Based on what I have seen, this is where we are now.
It's better, but I can also be much more harmful to mission-success, if you care more about Parade Rest than you do about your guys' health. And a large majority of it does come from the new generations. The PC crap that the military holds on to now is part of it, as is the "entitled" generation that we are bringing in now. They want to make everyone else assimilate to them, rather than assimilating into this lifestyle. And the sad thing is; it's working.

Response by SGM Joel Cook made Aug 1 at 2016 12:46 AM

SGM Joel Cook — Mon, 01 Aug 2016 00:46:26 -0400

There is a definite perception about discipline in the Sevices. Most disciplined as a whole Marine Corps, followed by Army, Navy, Coast Guard, and Air Force. Of course there are always individual positive and negative discipline examples in every branch. I base my opinion on one forty month tour in Panama on an Air Force Base where I worked and played with Army, Air Force, and Marines daily as a SFC and two tours in Iraq as a SGM under Joint Commands with forces from all branches on our Table of Organizational Euipment. I had 50% Army, 30% Air Force, 10% Marines and 10% Navy. We had two Coast Guard personel that filled Navy Slots. I had a hard time reconciling an honest answer when you threw Reserves and Guard into the mix. They are like night and day from active duty. I have worked as a TDY, NCO subject matter expert, with multiple reserve and guard units in Texas, Oklahoma, Minnesota, New York and Arkansas. For the most part they have almost no concept of discipline, honor, or integrity. The exceptions were one Battalion in New York and one Division from Minnesota that actually shocked me with their great professionalism and discipline. To the point of that the other units were committing crimes that had me calling back to my home base Commander and asking for termination of orders so I was not arrested and found guilty by association with those other units. The difference in those two units was that their Commanders were professionals and accepted no less from their troops. Most Guard and Reserve units have gross command leadership failures. I will get off my soap box now.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 3:16 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Aug 2016 15:16:30 -0400

For me, as a jarhead, it was repeated ad naseum that we are all leaders of troops. While we may not, by billet, be in a leadership position, in times of combat that could change in a heart beat. While the 1st month of boot camp is a breakdown period, the other 2 months are a build up period. And during that time, whether we are cognizant of it or not, we are being drilled in how to lead at the drop of a hat.

Yes, the team is important. But what do you do when, 2 minutes into combat you find that you, the brand newest E2 is the top of the command chain in your area? One of my Gunners (Warrant Officer) was a Vietnam vet. One day, his company was sent to take on a company of NV. When the company got into the fire fight they discovered it was not a company but rather 3 companies of NV reinforced with Chinese. When the fighting finally ended, the Gunner and his best friend were the only 2 left standing - out of 4 plus companies worth of combatants. He was an E2 at the beginning of the fight. Afterwards, he was an E6, Company Gunnery Sergeant as the company was reconstituted with fresh kids from the states.

While there are all sorts of "discipline", I think the fighting discipline is what we tend to think of. Believe me, it is NOT lacking in any branch. However, in the Marine Corps, it is the FIRST, LAST and everything in-between discipline that is adhered to. We wear that discipline with pride, we honor it, we even mock it - but we are Marines because of that particular discipline.

Everything else falls from that. Put your hands in your pockets while in uniform? Shame on you - bend and give me 50! Put your cover on too early while covered (in doors) - bend and give me 50! Call your cover a hat? Bend and give me 50! We are fast, green, amphibious blurs! Gung ho all the way. Ooh rah!!

And if you get tired of being gung ho (a majority do) then get out when your contract expires.

Heartbreak Ridge was a pretty decent movie depicting this type of discipline and being "all in".

Response by LTC Sonya Friday made Aug 2 at 2016 11:27 PM

LTC Sonya Friday — Tue, 02 Aug 2016 23:27:43 -0400

I believe that the overall perception regarding discipline is harsher in the marines compared to all other services. However I will tell you that it really depends on the type of unit to really determine how difficult discipline can be.

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2016 10:51 PM

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Aug 2016 22:51:34 -0400

COL Mikel J. Burroughs absolutely, 100%. Speaking from a Navy Petty Officer, and someone who most would consider a squared away top performer, I can honestly say, of all the branches, the Navy is probably the least disciplined - not to say that in negative way, however. There is actually a book about this: "The noncommissioned officer and petty officer." The Marine Corps has the most discipline. It is distinctive in everything they do. You can tell a lot about a branch by calling their formation to attention, giving them commands, and watching them during ceremonies. The Army follows immediately behind, followed by the Air Force. The perviously mentioned 3 branches are used to following orders. The Navy on the other hand operates quite often times in the absence of orders. E4, Junior Petty Officers have often been the senior man in the shop. The Navy Petty Officer is a junior free-thinker. They are given a task and expected to accomplish it, often times with little to no guidance. Because of this privilege and environment lacking structure, the Navy discipline, general military bearing, and adherence to "uniformity" often leaves much to be desired. If you call a formation of Sailors to attention you will see a lot of discrepancies. Call Dress Right, Dress, ready front - and cover down, and you will probably end up with a formation more unorganized than if an Army unit just "fell in". The Marine Corps and Army are almost always under the law-of-the-land. You could say that being out to see is a lawless land. Sailors don't walk around with a greeting of the day, often only recognize an Officer once, will walk around uncovered, and often times pass very senior enlisted leadership without recognition. I'd also argue that most Sailors don't know many of the basic uniform instructions. However, though these Sailors seem unruly and wild, they do their job to the standard of excellence, even in the worst conditions with the lowest moral. A Sailor is a different breed of animal.

I've always appreciated the military bearing and discipline of a Marine, but a Marine would never last at sea for 10 months.. Any Marine will tell you, boat life sucks.

Response by Amn Cassandra Lynn made Aug 9 at 2016 9:30 PM

Amn Cassandra Lynn — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 21:30:55 -0400

I feel that the Marines are the most disciplined then the Army. With me being Air Force, I admit we are VERY Lax!

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2016 2:43 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Oct 2016 14:43:58 -0400

I can only speak to Marines but have served in-theater with all - some more than others. We were taught early that discipline is "instant and willing obedience to orders without hesitation" and it has to be that way. All services have it at varying levels so no slam on others from me. Best Wishes to all.

Response by PFC James Craft made Nov 25 at 2016 7:53 PM

PFC James Craft — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 19:53:06 -0500

As a Marine I have to say that boot camp is very different for each branch. From the first day Marine Corps starts tearing you down to build what they need you to be. My Dad was AF when I was in the bush, he thought I could hop a plane ride when my sister was killed. My brother-in-law was Army and his best friend warned him to leave me alone when I came back from Vietnam. My Uncle was Navy and tried to call me a flag raiser until I slid a Bowie knife to him and told him I'd meet him outside.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2016 8:44 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Nov 2016 20:44:23 -0500

I hate to make it too simple, but each branch has different roles and different risks. If I'm to train heart pounders that constantly battle the enemy hand to hand in the mud . VS Mechanic's, pilots, strategist and etc.
I have been told in the civilian world it's easy to hand someone a weapon and ship em out.
I will never agree with that.
You need a high form of discipline to help them stay organized when all hell breaks out. When their standing amongst their fallen buds and still at hand to hand battle.

Response by SFC George Smith made Nov 27 at 2016 9:36 PM

SFC George Smith — Sun, 27 Nov 2016 21:36:56 -0500

most interesting...