Posted on Jan 9, 2020
Is there a Regulation regarding PEB when you have no official diagnosis? Could this be a possible IG complaint?
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So I apologize for the lengthy question, want to be through and detailed.
So around 2016 I started having non specific, generalized symptoms. (Overall weakness, constant fatigue, headaches, dizziness and the sorts) They became chronic about April of 2017. Passed an APFT March of 2017.
I saw countless specialists outside of the military (I'm in the PA ARNG, Covered with Tricare) and after countless visits/tests, there has been no formal diagnosis. I deployed to the SE Asia (Kuwait) from 2012-2013 surrounded by constant burn pits, oil refineries burning off, exposure to many chemicals and factories. (Worked on Shuaibu Port (SPOD)) was fine throughout.
To the main reasoning. I was put on a permanent profile approximately Sept 2017(basically I was on a dead mans profile). The state of PA initiated a Physical Evaluation Board(PEB) about a year later (since my symptoms were staying relatively the same causing massive hardship with work, and everyday life, physical exercise/exhaustion etc)
I did everything I needed to do (handed in all.medical docs from 2016-present), but the state was telling our BN Medical NCO that they needed an official diagnosis to process.
While all of this was going on, I filed a VA claim shortly before going on Permanent Profile in 2017, and currently appealing their denial
And seeing physicians at the VA who also gave no diagnosis.
In August of 2019, I was advised by my Readiness NCO that the state stopped the PEB process, and was now making me fully mission capable with PHULES all at 1s.
My Questions being is there any type of regulation that indicates any of this, can the state just say I'm FMC without being cleared by my primary physician even though they were the ones to initiate it? And would this even warrant a valid IG complaint.
Always have been a Soldier/NCO to go and do the Army thing, not try and "air grievances", but I feel like there is something either the state or my unit is not telling me.
At our recent MOBEX, I spoke with our BN PA and he basically said the same thing that the state needed a diagnosis, and the diagnosis of "Chronic fatigue syndrome" that a physician put down as a "placeholder" diagnosis was not valid enough.
This obviously is going to mess with any promotions (currently in a 6 slot waiting to go to ALC) and possible retention. I only want to make it to get Tricare for life, even if that means getting a medical retirement.
I'm not looking for barracks lawyer advice here, anyone with any type of information/resources/places to go would be great. Dont want to contact IG without doing my due diligence (and not sure if theres a period to file with them since this was about 4/5 months ago)
Thanks again for listening/reading thank you.
So around 2016 I started having non specific, generalized symptoms. (Overall weakness, constant fatigue, headaches, dizziness and the sorts) They became chronic about April of 2017. Passed an APFT March of 2017.
I saw countless specialists outside of the military (I'm in the PA ARNG, Covered with Tricare) and after countless visits/tests, there has been no formal diagnosis. I deployed to the SE Asia (Kuwait) from 2012-2013 surrounded by constant burn pits, oil refineries burning off, exposure to many chemicals and factories. (Worked on Shuaibu Port (SPOD)) was fine throughout.
To the main reasoning. I was put on a permanent profile approximately Sept 2017(basically I was on a dead mans profile). The state of PA initiated a Physical Evaluation Board(PEB) about a year later (since my symptoms were staying relatively the same causing massive hardship with work, and everyday life, physical exercise/exhaustion etc)
I did everything I needed to do (handed in all.medical docs from 2016-present), but the state was telling our BN Medical NCO that they needed an official diagnosis to process.
While all of this was going on, I filed a VA claim shortly before going on Permanent Profile in 2017, and currently appealing their denial
And seeing physicians at the VA who also gave no diagnosis.
In August of 2019, I was advised by my Readiness NCO that the state stopped the PEB process, and was now making me fully mission capable with PHULES all at 1s.
My Questions being is there any type of regulation that indicates any of this, can the state just say I'm FMC without being cleared by my primary physician even though they were the ones to initiate it? And would this even warrant a valid IG complaint.
Always have been a Soldier/NCO to go and do the Army thing, not try and "air grievances", but I feel like there is something either the state or my unit is not telling me.
At our recent MOBEX, I spoke with our BN PA and he basically said the same thing that the state needed a diagnosis, and the diagnosis of "Chronic fatigue syndrome" that a physician put down as a "placeholder" diagnosis was not valid enough.
This obviously is going to mess with any promotions (currently in a 6 slot waiting to go to ALC) and possible retention. I only want to make it to get Tricare for life, even if that means getting a medical retirement.
I'm not looking for barracks lawyer advice here, anyone with any type of information/resources/places to go would be great. Dont want to contact IG without doing my due diligence (and not sure if theres a period to file with them since this was about 4/5 months ago)
Thanks again for listening/reading thank you.
Physical Evaluation Board Liaison Officer (PEBLO)
Medical
Profiles
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 8
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I can offer no real insight here. However if the PEB was initiated, you should have been assigned a PEBLO. This is who I would reach out to in your situation. PEBLOs are (supposed to be) SMEs in the process and can give you far better advice regarding what is illegal, what is against regs, what is in a grey area, and what is completely good to go.
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SGT (Join to see)
Appreciate the insight. That's what was told to me as well. From what I was told, and what I researched (going back through old emails) i was never officially assigned a PEBLO (since my case never officially went to the PEB).
Thank you though. May have to go back through some old records and maybe see if I have fresh eyes
Thank you though. May have to go back through some old records and maybe see if I have fresh eyes
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SGT (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) - AR635-40. Also, a soldier is assigned a PEBLO once he/she enters the IDES process. It’s his/her job to guide the soldier through the entire MEB/PEB process.
What was the disqualifying condition you were originally given a P3 for? Why would your readiness NCO have any procedural information, whatsoever, regarding a medboard?
Respectfully, a lot of what you’ve written isn’t adding up. It doesn’t sound like you were actually submitted for a medboard. I’m sure there’s more to the story, and certainly follow up your Primary care, but as you've described, the choices seem to be:
A) you weren’t actually medboarded (maybe there was a huge miscommunication in terminology), or,
B) the Army made a lot of important paperwork go away, skipped a lot of nearly unskippable steps, and they managed to keep you out of the loop while doing so.
Both seem unlikely, but those simply appear to be the only choices, as described.
Ombudsman, chaplain, your primary care..always good first steps to help solve problems. Best of luck
What was the disqualifying condition you were originally given a P3 for? Why would your readiness NCO have any procedural information, whatsoever, regarding a medboard?
Respectfully, a lot of what you’ve written isn’t adding up. It doesn’t sound like you were actually submitted for a medboard. I’m sure there’s more to the story, and certainly follow up your Primary care, but as you've described, the choices seem to be:
A) you weren’t actually medboarded (maybe there was a huge miscommunication in terminology), or,
B) the Army made a lot of important paperwork go away, skipped a lot of nearly unskippable steps, and they managed to keep you out of the loop while doing so.
Both seem unlikely, but those simply appear to be the only choices, as described.
Ombudsman, chaplain, your primary care..always good first steps to help solve problems. Best of luck
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SGT (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) that's exactly why I'm starting to question everything. I was given 4 temporary profiles prior to being issued a permanent profile in that time. Since they were saying their was no official diagnosis (and when it came to be chronic fatigue, they didnt like that either) that's why their saying everything stopped and I was now considered FMC.
I'm going to bury my head dead in that reg. Thank you.
I'm going to bury my head dead in that reg. Thank you.
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I have some backgroud in this area; I was the MMRB coordinator for my state, I developed our MAR2 program, and was responsible for preparing all of the MEB/PEB packets for five years. I myself went through an MMRB for a nerve issue and many years later was processed out after an MAR2, through MEB, and PEB when I was injured. I have been on both sides of the system and my Father was a service officer for the DAV, additionally I was a unit administrator and a dental technician so I am probably as close to a subject matter expert as you are going to find without paying money. (Plus I checked the current regs when I answered you.)
I would suggest a visit to a civilian neurologist, many of your symptoms are listed in AR 40-501, chapter 3, section 31 Neurology (6)k. other neurological conditions. Once a civilian Neurologist has examined you they will start working with you to try and elevate your symptoms. Part of that process will be avoidance of anything that exacerbates those symptoms, this will more than likely lead to a new profile. Bring a copy of DA form 7809 with you for the civilian Neurologist to fill out. It is a requirement, according to AR 40-502 chp.3-1)that "Healthcare providers will evaluate every Soldier at every medical encounter to identify and appropriately profile potential duty limitations". Make sure any medications the Neurologist prescribes are listed, it is not uncommon for new medications to trigger an automatic 30 to 90 day temporary profile, this will give you some time to get the rest of this mess straight, and get your profile reinstated.
Next portion of your question. If you had a Permanent Profile from 2017 on and are waiting to go to ALC this should by regulation mean that you have been had an MAR2 to determine your ability to be retained and been found fit. If you were in the PEB process that normally means means you were found not fit for retention and completed a Medical Evaluation Board (MEB) of which you make no mention. ALL of this SHOULD have been explained to you as part of the MAR2 counseling process. There is something seriously wrong with what is going on in your situation. Probably not your fault. So what to do?
1. If you had an MAR2, what are the results? Get them.
2. If you didn't, you were not in the PEB process. Civilian Neurologist.
3. If you had an MAR2 and were retained with a P3 profile and the state changed it. Go to to your Command, they cannot change it without another MAR2 and they are required to provide the medical documentation that it should be changed.
4. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is the diagnosis given. The "State" can discuss it with your physician or send you to an MEB. Go to the Neurologist.
5. If you got confused somewhere in the process and had a PEB without realizing it there should be a Y on your profile indicating you were boarded, retained and your profile upgraded. You should have also received the results and been given an opportunity to appeal. Check your profile.
6. The Veterans Administration is really great for many things depending on what state you are living in. (I get a lot of my treatment through them.) When it comes to filing your claim, it is not their job to take care of you. Go get help with your claim from one of the service organizations (I like the DAV, but the VFW, Legion, and others can help.) It is the quality of the medical documentation that you have that will determine your case with the V.A. Go to a civilian Neurologist.
7. The Regulation that covers medical discharge process is AR 645-40. It is available on line. Google and read.
8. Something that many (if not most) service members do not realize is that the IG really has no power to do anything. The IG is a great investigative tool, if they are on your side they can track down a great deal of information for you, but even if you are right and they make a recommendation that the Command do XYZ, that doesn't mean anything. The Commander does not have to follow the advice of the IG. There is absolutely nothing that says the Commander must follow the recommendation and if they do not, chances are nothing will happen to them. Skip the IG.
9. If you have the medical documentation that says you have a problem, and your profile was changed, and none of the above information has helped you get this straight, file a Congressional Complaint. In the National Guard these are usually handled by the Adjutant General's Office. The AG is confirmed by the legislature, meaning it is a semi political post, and a call from a member of Congress or a Senator about a legitimate issue with a Service Member gets attention and problems taken care of. Make sure you have your ducks in a row before you go this route, no one likes to waste their time on an E5 who didn't read the reg or turn in the paperwork.
Good luck.
I would suggest a visit to a civilian neurologist, many of your symptoms are listed in AR 40-501, chapter 3, section 31 Neurology (6)k. other neurological conditions. Once a civilian Neurologist has examined you they will start working with you to try and elevate your symptoms. Part of that process will be avoidance of anything that exacerbates those symptoms, this will more than likely lead to a new profile. Bring a copy of DA form 7809 with you for the civilian Neurologist to fill out. It is a requirement, according to AR 40-502 chp.3-1)that "Healthcare providers will evaluate every Soldier at every medical encounter to identify and appropriately profile potential duty limitations". Make sure any medications the Neurologist prescribes are listed, it is not uncommon for new medications to trigger an automatic 30 to 90 day temporary profile, this will give you some time to get the rest of this mess straight, and get your profile reinstated.
Next portion of your question. If you had a Permanent Profile from 2017 on and are waiting to go to ALC this should by regulation mean that you have been had an MAR2 to determine your ability to be retained and been found fit. If you were in the PEB process that normally means means you were found not fit for retention and completed a Medical Evaluation Board (MEB) of which you make no mention. ALL of this SHOULD have been explained to you as part of the MAR2 counseling process. There is something seriously wrong with what is going on in your situation. Probably not your fault. So what to do?
1. If you had an MAR2, what are the results? Get them.
2. If you didn't, you were not in the PEB process. Civilian Neurologist.
3. If you had an MAR2 and were retained with a P3 profile and the state changed it. Go to to your Command, they cannot change it without another MAR2 and they are required to provide the medical documentation that it should be changed.
4. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is the diagnosis given. The "State" can discuss it with your physician or send you to an MEB. Go to the Neurologist.
5. If you got confused somewhere in the process and had a PEB without realizing it there should be a Y on your profile indicating you were boarded, retained and your profile upgraded. You should have also received the results and been given an opportunity to appeal. Check your profile.
6. The Veterans Administration is really great for many things depending on what state you are living in. (I get a lot of my treatment through them.) When it comes to filing your claim, it is not their job to take care of you. Go get help with your claim from one of the service organizations (I like the DAV, but the VFW, Legion, and others can help.) It is the quality of the medical documentation that you have that will determine your case with the V.A. Go to a civilian Neurologist.
7. The Regulation that covers medical discharge process is AR 645-40. It is available on line. Google and read.
8. Something that many (if not most) service members do not realize is that the IG really has no power to do anything. The IG is a great investigative tool, if they are on your side they can track down a great deal of information for you, but even if you are right and they make a recommendation that the Command do XYZ, that doesn't mean anything. The Commander does not have to follow the advice of the IG. There is absolutely nothing that says the Commander must follow the recommendation and if they do not, chances are nothing will happen to them. Skip the IG.
9. If you have the medical documentation that says you have a problem, and your profile was changed, and none of the above information has helped you get this straight, file a Congressional Complaint. In the National Guard these are usually handled by the Adjutant General's Office. The AG is confirmed by the legislature, meaning it is a semi political post, and a call from a member of Congress or a Senator about a legitimate issue with a Service Member gets attention and problems taken care of. Make sure you have your ducks in a row before you go this route, no one likes to waste their time on an E5 who didn't read the reg or turn in the paperwork.
Good luck.
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SGT (Join to see)
Roger that. Thank you so much for that detailed info. That's perfect to go off of. I started digging into the AR today and really hitting into it
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It seems to me that medical gave you a profile, thus medical needs to determine your status to keep you on profile or take you off. To me that's logical.
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