Is there a regulation that deals with when a soldier lets a military vehicle run out of fuel?

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 May 2021 23:23:03 -0400

We had a soldier not check fuel level and let a LMTV run out of fuel on a mission. Granted he was the TC (E-4), is there any type of regulation or counseling template I can use in order to take care of this?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2021 11:34 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 May 2021 23:34:35 -0400

CPL Private RallyPoint Member Good question... are you wanting to document the event or impress upon him what consequences could have happened, or maybe did happen, due to his negligence?

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 10 at 2021 12:20 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Mon, 10 May 2021 00:20:54 -0400

Should be in your unit's vehicle SOP

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2021 12:42 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 May 2021 00:42:22 -0400

Back in my Heavy Engineer days, it was SOP to refuel the vehicle after EVERY mission outside of the motor pool and as needed when in the field. Part of the PCC/PCI and PMCS of that vehicle before it rolls out is to check the fuel levels. Both the Driver AND the TC failed and both need to be counseling.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2021 1:12 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 May 2021 01:12:41 -0400

You don't need a regulation to replace common sense. A counseling is not a reprimand. Whatever you would day out loud you just put on the counseling. It can read like this:

Don't do dumb stuff. Vehicles need fuel. If you drive off without fuel that's dumb. Always fuel before driving.

Response by SPC Cathy Goessman made May 10 at 2021 2:50 AM

SPC Cathy Goessman — Mon, 10 May 2021 02:50:48 -0400

Why are you looking to hem up a soldier by finding a regulation or relying on somebody else to do the work through a template? It's a simple "you did a dumb thing" type counseling. If you can't think of anything like a specific regulation or SOP do you really think this soldier is going to have knowledge of it?

And an LMTV takes a bit to run down on fuel. If this truck wasn't just running around on its own doing details whoever was leading that convoy needs to be talked to as well.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made May 10 at 2021 7:57 AM

1LT William Clardy — Mon, 10 May 2021 07:57:58 -0400

While ensuring that a vehicle is adequately fueled is a routine step in pre-op inspection, we all know that there are times when balls get dropped, especially when folks are tired or commanders are impatient. The best way to learn from stupid mistakes is to pick apart what made them seem less stupid on the way in. With that in mind, here are some questions which I think should frame your corrective counseling.
1) E-4 is not a rank. Is the vehicle commander an NCO (with a higher level of authority and expected responsibility) or a specialist?
2) How experienced was the driver? Does he have a record of inexperience or neglect which would have called for closer supervision by the vehicle commander?
3) Was there any known deficiency, such as a malfunctioning fuel gauge, which would have led them to believe that the vehicle had more fuel than turned out to be the case?
4) What was the mission? Was it the first run of the day, fresh out of the motor pool, or a hurried "You need to go fetch these troops right now!" after other operations had burned through the on-board fuel?
5) Prior to departure, did either the driver or vehicle commander express any concern that they might be running on vapors by the end of the mission? If so, did anybody more senior discourage them from taking the time to refuel before departing?
6) Most importantly, what lessons has the vehicle crew (both driver and commander) already drawn from this? Are they unlikely to make a similar mistake again, or do they really need to write "I will not masturbate with 80-grit sandpaper" 100 times on a chalkboard to drive home the training point?

Also, as advice to a young corporal, none of these questions should appear on paper. You should have the answers before you start writing anything, and whatever gets recorded should be a succinct distillation of the lessons you think can be learned by all involved.

ADDENDUM: If they were they my troopies and I harbored any doubts about how devoutly they would avoid repeating the embarrassment, I would task them with spending some quality weekend hours practicing safely relocating their vehicle with zero fuel consumption so that they can demonstrate their lessons learned to the rest of your section on Monday. (This would not be a zero-cost choice, because a good corporal, because would supervise the weekend exercise from nearby shade while sipping tea and offering pithy advice)

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made May 10 at 2021 11:08 AM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Mon, 10 May 2021 11:08:59 -0400

I’m sure there is a local policy or even a SOP of some form between the motor pool and platoon level to ensure fuel levels are monitored. I know it is generally taught to all drivers when getting their respective licensing as well. If someone is working in vehicle ops fuel is part of the gig.

Don’t overthink it

Response by SSG Stephen Arnold made May 10 at 2021 11:16 AM

SSG Stephen Arnold — Mon, 10 May 2021 11:16:58 -0400

We were required to physically check fuel levels as part of the PMCS when I served.

We also had dispatch checklists to ensure that all PMCS was completed. The driver and vehicle commander signed assuring it was done.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made May 10 at 2021 12:24 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Mon, 10 May 2021 12:24:16 -0400

Lol, the Gunny yells at you because he has to send someone out with a gas can, you might catch extra duty if he’s really pissed. Checking for gas is the first thing you do, it’s not a POV and it’s as much the lazy dumbass who brought it back empty fault as his. Don’t trust anyone else, check for yourself.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made May 10 at 2021 12:42 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Mon, 10 May 2021 12:42:30 -0400

I'm guessing there's a checklist that should be completed prior to starting daily use of the vehicle. If it includes checking the fuel level, then it's probable the TC failed to follow the technical instructions. In the Air Force, these instructions are considered to have the strength of a direct order. Failing to follow the technical order could be punishable by non-judicial punishment or by court martial.

If this is the Soldier's first time making a serious error, aka, dumb mistake, then counseling is probably the best course. If there was serious mission impact, then non-judicial punishment might be called for. Check with the JAG.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2021 12:46 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 May 2021 12:46:24 -0400

I am not sure about a regulation on running a diesel engine out of fuel, and I was a light wheeled vehicle mechanic many moons ago, you really aren't damaging the vehicle, however it comes down to the situation in which it occurred, did it put his or her fellow soldiers in danger?
i would counsel both for not following the proper PMCS, checking the fuel gauge is one of the checks. I would remind the soldiers in question that if this had occurred in a combat situation there could be severe consequences for his entire team. A proper PMCS can save a life.
You would use the standard 4856 and begin it with event oriented

Response by SGT Floyd Bollinger made May 10 at 2021 1:18 PM

SGT Floyd Bollinger — Mon, 10 May 2021 13:18:59 -0400

Why are you even asking this question. Are you incapable of being a Jr NCO. Think outside the box. Not everything needs to be written up. Make him carry a full fuel can with him wherever he goes. Make him work the fuel point for a few days & fuel every vehicle that comes by. Be creative to get your point across about refueling the vehicle.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2021 1:32 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 May 2021 13:32:02 -0400

Now how does that happen. We never moved a vehicle without going through the PM daily checks. Does this vehicle not have gauges. Do they work. This sounds like a personal issue between two military members experiencing a personal problem