Is there a regulation that points to not walking on the grass? Or states that all non hand receipt facilities are property of Drill SGT's?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 18 Dec 2022 12:53:22 -0500

Speaking of long understood norms, and trying to validate them and out smart 1SG's and CMS. What about the ones covering the grass or leaning on walls that don't belong to them?

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Dec 18 at 2022 12:55 PM

SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM — Sun, 18 Dec 2022 12:55:01 -0500

Interesting!

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Dec 18 at 2022 1:54 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Sun, 18 Dec 2022 13:54:02 -0500

There may be local directives concerning walking on unpaved or unimproved areas. These rules are normally in place to prevent folks wearing unwanted, often muddy, paths around the installation. A generalized "keep off the grass" may exist only in the minds of some Sergeants or Officers. Check the installation website. Local directives may be posted there.
A similar observation may be made about the exterior of buildings. The reason for a restriction on leaning against a wall, sitting of a fence, etc., is to protect the property from damage that might happen when hundreds of people innocently stress the facility. Again, check installation directives.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2022 2:19 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 18 Dec 2022 14:19:58 -0500

Basically it isn’t a question of property, it is a question of conduct, discipline, and appearance. As a DI it was my responsibility to turn sometimes lazy people with poor posture and socially unacceptable manners into a soldier who can conduct himself properly under all situations.

Response by COL Randall C. made Dec 18 at 2022 2:41 PM

COL Randall C. — Sun, 18 Dec 2022 14:41:10 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member, I doubt there is a regulation regarding these things (a BIG ARMY regulation that is). However, you tagged it - policy.

When I was at Bliss in the early 90s, there absolutely was a post policy letter about staying off of the grass on the parade field when it wasn't used for official activities. Sure, it was about a specific section of grass, but there was one. I know for a fact that Ft. Benning has it as part of their post regulations that you are prohibited from driving on the grass unless it's an emergency (don't think they had anything about walking on it though!).

However, the one thing that a lot of barracks lawyers seem to forget when they start scouring ARs and policy letters on things is that "because I told you so" is in fact a legally binding reason behind an order in the military. Something as tenuous as "it causes an increased wear path because multiple people walk on the grass and it will cost time, money and manpower to regrow it" is a valid military need.

I can't recall any formal NJP (i.e., Article 15) coming out of disobeying the Battalion commander's policy (which I'm sure the CSM put before the 'old man' to sign off on) but I have seen other 'informal' NJP come down -- additional duty on the weekends, being posted as a "grass guard", etc.

Now, the "don't lean on buildings you don't own" ... yeah, that's a bit more of a stretch, but still falls into the category of, "A superior’s order is presumed to be lawful and is disobeyed at the subordinate’s peril. To sustain the presumption, the order must relate to military duty. It must not conflict with the statutory or constitutional rights of the person receiving the order."

Now, I can't envision someone getting an Article 15 for leaning on a building or let alone UCMJ (well, it would be for disobeying an order, not 'leaning on a building'), but I absolutely can foresee some corrective action in that Soldier's future.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2022 3:20 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 18 Dec 2022 15:20:17 -0500

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Dec 18 at 2022 7:49 PM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Sun, 18 Dec 2022 19:49:48 -0500

UCMJ, Article 92 - Failure to Obey Order or Regulation. Military policies can only be given by command level in the military, thus this makes policies, whether written or stated, an order to all ranks under that person's command structure. Typically a new unit or post commander will extend policies from previous commanders until he has reviewed them and places his signature of his version of any existing policies. He may implement new policies.
Coronary Example: In the field this flow of command has the practical application that the 'Attack' doesn't halt if the commander is killed or incapacitated. The person who then assumes to command continues the mission or orders new actions based upon the current and developing situation.
When a unit policy has been 'ordered' under the commanders signature, there is requirement for all soldiers under the commander to comply as if he received a VOCO directly from said commander. All subordinate Officers and NCOS are thereby charged with the enforcement of those policies.
Any deliberate violations of the commander's written polices may result in UCMJ disciplinary action.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Dec 18 at 2022 10:33 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Sun, 18 Dec 2022 22:33:53 -0500

It’s a combination of things to include local policy, posted signage, and leadership assuming responsibility of assigned property/equipment.

I can’t speak to Army posts but Marine bases will normally have signs posted if you can’t walk in certain areas or on the grass.

Facilities, furniture and stuff like that is policed for proper usage and the leadership of that assigned unit is responsible if it is misused, damaged or lost.

There are generally local policies posted in public areas and common areas to support the signage as well.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Dec 19 at 2022 2:27 AM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Mon, 19 Dec 2022 02:27:24 -0500

"When All Else Fails,
Common Sense SHOULD Prevail.

Seriously Folks, I Served Just Before The Dinosaur Disappeared 1961 -1965, USAF.
Is Common Sense No Longer A Consideration?
I Ask Because Many Questions I'm Reading Appear To Be No More Than Fillers, Until Better Ones Come Forward.....

Response by CSM William Everroad made Dec 19 at 2022 9:39 AM

CSM William Everroad — Mon, 19 Dec 2022 09:39:10 -0500

Because I said so. Like COL Randall C. points out, no regulation is needed.

But, being the reasonable CSM that I am I reflect on the "why" of a lot of our 'given commone sense' because, like other senior leaders, we get questioned, especially in gray area policies like this.

My reflection on grass is a lot like SFC Private RallyPoint Member's. It is about discipline. The Army pays good money to maintain its greenspace (either in contracted labor or PVTs) and as a ground force, there is one thing we are good at: tearing up the earth. There is a strong correlation with "happiness" and "satisfaction" to your external environment. Simply put people are happier and more motivated when surrounded by "pretty" things. If you want to test it, go to parts of Moscow or other eastern block countries that haven't changed since the 70s/80s concrete block architecture. It's depressing.

With that in mind, maintaining manicured greenspace is paramount to maintaining at least some little bit of a positive environment. And when Soldiers cut across said space to shave of few seconds it could highlight a couple things:
1. lack of respect for policy
2. lack of respect for the nice things the Army does have
3. lack of discipline
4. Laziness and carelessness

These may seem like little things, but in the grand scheme of development, everything we do should reinforce and develop the attributes and competencies that we seek to see in our Soldiers to form a strong base of character, so that one day, if they ever have to make an ethical decision, they make the most right one. For every inch we give for the sake of percieved uselessness or convience, we give another inch in the wrong direction of character development.

Does every Soldier need such excrutiating reminders that we should be a professional force? not necessarily, but since there is no objective test for character until the actual moment it is needed, better safe than sorry.

Now get off my grass.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Dec 19 at 2022 12:02 PM

Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis — Mon, 19 Dec 2022 12:02:28 -0500

There are two things in play, here. As far the grass goes, that's Government Property. As such, there is a requirement to treat it well. Walking on the grass can be tantamount to abuse of Government Property.

As far as whose property are all non-hand receipt facilities, that would be up to the unit commander. If said commander want that to be the DI, then so be it. That would be considered a verbal order.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Dec 19 at 2022 3:26 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Mon, 19 Dec 2022 15:26:28 -0500

Command Policy, or simply the CSMs/1SGs lawful order. It is a reality that repeatedly walking on grass creates ugly/muddy paths eventually which ends up costing more time and resources to get them right in early spring to start over again.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Dec 21 at 2022 6:11 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Wed, 21 Dec 2022 18:11:55 -0500

Sir, don't try, you will just lose. Example- no Army Reg, to cover walking on grass- but we had a BN Cdr (LTC) issue an order to that effect in BN formation, Anyone caught walking on his grass received a Field grade ART 15, including some senior NCO's and 2nd/1st LTs. JAG said it was a lawful order and couldn't sway him. A normal career stopper for junior officers. He kept it up for 6months, until our mortars some how fired a walking barrage on a live fire in reverse. CID couldn't prove anything. DIV replaced him after his convalescent leave and no one ever remarked on the stick figures and jeeps white out on the base plates.

Response by SGT George Edward Brown made Jan 9 at 2023 1:48 PM

SGT George Edward Brown — Mon, 09 Jan 2023 13:48:56 -0500

A LITTLE TALE FROM THE PAST, MY GRANDFATHER WAS IN THE MARINES 1912-1916, I HAVE APICTURE OF HIM IN PAINT SPLATTERED COVERALLS FROM PAINTING ROCKS USED TO DESIGNATE A WALKWAY, THIS MAY HAVE BEEN IN PANAMA OR AT FORT ELLIOT NICARAGUA, HE WAS IN THE HQ COMPANY AND APPARENTLY BACKTALKED THE GENERAL, WE HAVE A GERMAN STREAK IN OUR BLOOD THAT GOES BACK TO THE 1600'S. ALSO IN THE BOYSCOUTS IN THE 1950'S AT THE SUMMER CAMPS I ATTENDED WE HAD TO PAINT THE ROCKS DESIGNATING THE WALKWAYS. SO IT SEEMS THE STAY OFF THE GRASS MENTALITY GOES WAY BACK :)

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Jan 22 at 2023 11:19 PM

PO1 Kevin Dougherty — Sun, 22 Jan 2023 23:19:25 -0500

Regulations no, punishable offense, no, well not officially. Good way to earn a smoke session? Yea, definitely.