Is there an AR stating that a Specialist has to go to parade rest for a Specialist?

2016-04-27T00:57:26-04:00

I'm am a specialist assigned to a infantry unit, in my squad we have two team leaders who are also specialist. I respect that they are team leaders. But lately they have been giving corrective training for not going to parade rest or by not addressing them as specialist when I myself am a specialist. Is there an army regulation or anything supporting there actions?

Response by SPC Matthew Birkinbine made Apr 27 at 2016 1:02 AM

2016-04-27T01:02:22-04:00

No. If you do it, do it out of respect for the nature of the position s/he holds over you, or if nothing else, to portray an example of professionalism to your subordinates.

Response by SPC Brian Mason made Apr 27 at 2016 1:13 AM

2016-04-27T01:13:37-04:00

Team Leaders? Are you sure you're not working for Target? I was assigned to 10th MTN DIV, 4-31 INF. The unit started promoting more specialists to CPL/E-4. We had two and those we had to treat as NCOs (junior). When I got there I was an E-2 and by the 2nd deployment, there were E4/SPC who had longer TIS and TIG. We did not have to stand at anything for them. I think what is going on over there is ridiculous and doesn't follow rank.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Apr 27 at 2016 1:14 AM

2016-04-27T01:14:23-04:00

SPC Private RallyPoint Member - Your post reminded me of this little riddle:
Q.) What you call a Captain-select?
A.) Lieutenant
Keep in mind that they hold a billet. So, both learn from them... and teach them how to be better SPC's. Sounds like they're trying to establish some ground rules for their soldiers. Sure, it might be annoying that you're the same rank. But, extend that professional courtesy. You'll be a better leader for it --especially when you assume their billet.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2016 1:32 AM

2016-04-27T01:32:53-04:00

This was an issue back in my E-4 days. Bottom line, you respect the position and support your team leader. You may be in that position one day and you would want the same.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2016 1:46 AM

2016-04-27T01:46:53-04:00

I am not infantry by any means, but I thought that team leaders were Corporals. I think having the "hard" stripe would help in this situation. Having said that, I would just pick a better battle and play the game.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2016 2:58 AM

2016-04-27T02:58:06-04:00

Its called respect for your team leader. They may be E4s too but they are in an E5 position and your first line leader

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2016 4:18 AM

2016-04-27T04:18:55-04:00

Specialist Richardson,
B.L.U.F
Stand at parade rest because its position over rank. However, if you want some insight continue reading. As an infantryman this is standard practice. This is an opportunity for both yourself and that team leader regardless of rank to develop both tact and resilency. There are going to be situations that you as the Soldier may or may not agree with, but you will execute them. They'll be giving these orders in their own name but remember they do come from higher. If outside of work you both carry a cordial relationship use the time outside of work to help mentor and mold if the opportunity should come up. If all else fail then simply put it in perspective and reverse the roles what would you do? Also taking into account who your peers and subordinates are then trying to ID the correct leadership style.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2016 4:40 AM

2016-04-27T04:40:20-04:00

Remember, everyone is an example. Some are what you hope to be and others are what you will spend a lifetime trying to avoid becoming. Give the devil his due and it is you that looks like the disciplined soldier ready for greater responsibility. God Save the Queen of Battle.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Apr 27 at 2016 5:53 AM

2016-04-27T05:53:33-04:00

A Team leader in an Infantry squad is and normally reserved for an E5. The Specialist in this position is assuming that authority under the auspice of the Company commander. Therefore they should be respected and treated as a Sergeant as they are acting as such. Now they should be mentored and coached ensuring that they do things correctly. Lastly, the SSG, Platoon Sergeant or Platoon leader should have briefed your squad as to the state of the COC.

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made Apr 27 at 2016 6:12 AM

2016-04-27T06:12:56-04:00

Don't confuse your rank with their position. I just left command of a 420 person company where I had numerous LTC's and COL's, but as the commander I outranked every single one of them by position. I didn't need to throw my position around, but ultimately my orders were lawful. Wherever there is a lack of manpower or overly competent personnel (every unit) you are going to have people in positions above their pay grade. Your situation is the exact same thing.
By virtue of position those specialist can give you lawful orders. Calling them a specialist and their last name rather by name only is an appropriate courtesy. Standing at parade rest if they tell you to, is also appropriate. Ultimately they are issuing lawful orders to you and you know the position they hold. If you disobey them, you would be punished and your defense wouldn't cut it. I do believe your company should get to work and make some of these SPC's into CPL's. However, it is a good test for them to develop as leaders and if you don't like it, get yourself in position to be promoted and you will have your own team. Not everything is in an Army Regulation, but trust me on this one. You don't want to find out you were wrong upon visiting trial defense services prior to your article 15.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2016 7:09 AM

2016-04-27T07:09:23-04:00

Perhaps this quote of General John J. Pershing would solve these questions if we just followed it.

“In a society where a man is placed in a superior position to another, if he is a gentleman, he never thinks of it. In the same society when a man is placed in a subordinate position to another, if he is a gentleman, he never forgets it.”

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2016 7:22 AM

2016-04-27T07:22:45-04:00

There no Reg on Spc having to go to parade rest to another of same rank..If they are in fact your team leader and aren't wearing CPL rank then they aren't in a position to lead you. But according to good order and discipline you are obligated to render correct custom and courtesy. I would address this issue with your squad Leader of anything

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2016 7:39 AM

2016-04-27T07:39:47-04:00

No there isn't. Army regulation states that the position of parade rest is afforded to Noncommissioned Officers and it is also to be used as a "relaxed" secondary position in the company of a Commissioned Officer. Nowhere does it say anything about parade rest to SPC.

Response by MGySgt James Forward made Apr 27 at 2016 8:10 AM

2016-04-27T08:10:04-04:00

Looks like peacetime games are returning, and no I never stood at parade rest for a Cpl when I was a Cpl, LCpl or Pfc. That was reserved for Staff Noncommissioned officers and officers. As far as corrective action was concerned, most times it was swift sometimes mildly violent, but never followed up with paperwork. Absolute power corrupts, looks like a power trip INMO.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2016 9:55 AM

2016-04-27T09:55:00-04:00

No actual reg stating you stand at Parade Rest for them. But they are your Team Leaders...therefore they are higher in the food chain than you are. Always remember the phrase "Position comes before rank." Might as well start standing that way now because apparently your CoC sees potential in them and they will more than likely make SGT soon....then you WILL have to stand at Parade Rest. You may not like the person, but you need to respect their position.

Response by COL John Hudson made Apr 27 at 2016 9:58 AM

2016-04-27T09:58:42-04:00

From the IG desk: Common military protocol requires being addressed by rank, then name. I am, to every military person I meet, to be addressed as "Colonel Hudson" regardless of the rank of the individual addressing me. However, this requirement may be softened in certain environments with the approval of all concerned. When faced with a situation of similar rank all around - then the individual with the oldest date of rank would be noted as the de facto ranking member IF placed in a leadership position. If conflict arises due to this understanding, then all participants should meet with their ranking NCO or Commander and hash the matter out. Your question as to "parade rest" lacks context for me to be definitive, but I am not aware of any requirement of two military individuals of equal rank to have one standing at parade rest while addressing the other, regardless of date of rank. During my career, I have seen such issues resolved by designating the E-4 in a leadership position as a Corporal with two 'hard stripes,' providing a proper visual recognition of that individual's position and responsibilities. This is also a matter to be resolved by your senior NCO and Commander if you feel you are more deserving of the position than the incumbent.

Response by SGT De'Vonte Johnson made Apr 27 at 2016 10:10 AM

2016-04-27T10:10:28-04:00

There's no reg under the sun that regulates this. As far as the grand scheme of things that pertain to the militaries regulations on military customs and courtesies, in my opinion, I think that if any person regardless of rank gets offended by a person not standing at parade rest for them is unfit for that position which is held. I've been a CPL now for almost two years and anyone who has talked with me below my grade or position, I've never required them to stand at parade rest. Of course, I have the power to do so, but it's a waste of time to correct that solider on such a small and easily fixable issue. However, like I said, this is my opinion and i say this with the most respect to rank, postion, and this DD-214 I'll be receiving soon.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2016 10:10 AM

2016-04-27T10:10:34-04:00

Schools often want you to stand at parade rest to instructors whom you may have time in grade or rank over. I pick battles that are worth fighting when it comes to things like this. You would like them to respect your position, then do the same for them.

Response by PO2 Robert Aitchison made Apr 27 at 2016 10:39 AM

2016-04-27T10:39:32-04:00

Now we in the Navy aren't known for being overly concerned with traditional military practices but I'll tell you a story. When I reported aboard my first ship there were 4 PO1s (E-6) in the shop (of just 8 techs) but just one was the LPO (Leading Petty Officer). During muster and during work the LPO was in charge and the other PO1s followed his direction and orders without question.

Response by SPC Rory J. Mattheisen made Apr 27 at 2016 11:46 AM

2016-04-27T11:46:07-04:00

Time in grade, if they are appointed leaders that is covered in your oath of enlistment.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2016 1:06 PM

2016-04-27T13:06:30-04:00

that's not a bad question and I am glad you asked, as I read this thread there are a lot of great insights from leaders all over the force. I was in the position when I was an E-5 Squad leader. not only were the team leaders my friends but subordinates. and like any good organization you support your leaders. don't take this as a personal attack against you. they are placed into the position, you should recognize that and work with them not against them. you will all benefit from the experience and hopefully grow a better team from this experience.

Response by SPC David Christiansen made Apr 27 at 2016 1:29 PM

2016-04-27T13:29:10-04:00

If it's your team leader they are in a position of authority over you. You technically don't have to, but it shows respect if you do.

My advice if they been places and done things you haven't, give them the respect.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2016 2:54 PM

2016-04-27T14:54:38-04:00

As I have always understood it, parade rest is a courtesy given to NCO's of superior rank. A specialist is not an NCO, so they are not afforded that courtesy. If they were corporals, then you would give them the courtesy that goes with being an NCO. With that said, they are in a superior position within the squad, and are due a certain level of respect. Hopefully, you all are professional enough to work that out.

Response by SPC Walter Currier made Apr 27 at 2016 3:18 PM

2016-04-27T15:18:28-04:00

Sometimes you have to do things in the Army that seems alittle awkward. There is always someone in a position of authority over you from the bottom of the heap all the way to the top. If my squad leader were the same rank as I, then its my duty to approach them with the same respect and decorum as I would a person who is a higher rank. It seems silly but we began learning this idea in BCT with squad leaders wearing sgt stripes on their pocket flap or the assistant wearing cpl stripes and the platoon guide wearing ssg on theirs. Most of us were E-1's as were they but we understood then that they had the authority to instruct us and correct us as warranted. At the same time while you are showing the respect to the position you are demonstrating to a PFC how to respect you when you are his squad leader and he has been promoted. Remember you will be treated the way others see you treat those appointed above you for the most part. Also it doesnt cost anything to go to parade rest and address them as Specialist. If you disrespect them then mostlikely you wouldnt be taken seriously or you will have a hard time demanding respect from others.

Response by SGT Aaron Atwood made Apr 27 at 2016 3:33 PM

2016-04-27T15:33:46-04:00

In the short run just go with it. How are they as leaders overall? If being motarded with formalities is their worst sin you have much to be thankful for. I've known many leaders who came off as hard@$$ especially with formalities, but they were among the best overall leaders I have ever known, and I strive every day to be like them.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2016 6:11 PM

2016-04-27T18:11:23-04:00

No to parade rest, yes to addressing them as specialist. Protocol is to address personnel by Rank and name. Environment may relax this, but clearly you are not in that kind of environment. On parade rest, if they are not an NCO, by rank, no. The FM doesn't mention position, it mentions rank. This all of course unless you have a local policy dictating otherwise. But don't forget that the supervisory authority they possess still remains, irrespective of rank.

Response by SPC Rex Sanders made Apr 27 at 2016 8:30 PM

2016-04-27T20:30:49-04:00

Are you a team leader? Even though you are the same rank, they hold a higher position then you do.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made Apr 27 at 2016 8:54 PM

2016-04-27T20:54:11-04:00

Correct me if i'm wrong, specialist don't parade rest for another specialist just because they are team leader.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2016 9:08 PM

2016-04-27T21:08:57-04:00

There's no AR, but your best COA is to go to parade rest due to position. It's going to cost some pride, but it is the right thing to do. Your other COA involves IG or command. Probably not what's best for you, your platoon, or the company as a whole. Pick your battles wisely

Response by SGT Alejandro Sarandrea made Apr 27 at 2016 9:39 PM

2016-04-27T21:39:11-04:00

There isn't per se a an Army Regulation that states a specialist has to go to parade rest for another specialist. However, if one specialist is senior or has been authorized to act in a leadership capacity, like team leader or squad leader they can lawfully order the other specialist to a position of parade rest while exercising a command presence. Under article 92 of the Uniformed Code of Military Justice resisting or disobeying that order can result in punishment if supported by the chain of command. http://www.jordanucmjlaw.com/Articles/Article-92-Failure-to-Obey-Order-or-Regulation.aspx

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Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2016 5:00 AM

2016-04-28T05:00:58-04:00

SPC Private RallyPoint Member alright so you got a lot of great answers to your question here, so let me go ahead and give you the bad answer.

Your two Spcs need to be knocked down a peg for what they're doing. I don't care that they're sitting in a team leader billet, or even if they're Spc(P) you all operate as equals. I'd suggest kindly pulling them aside and reminding them that you are meant to be peers. An Spc making another spc stand at parade rest during day to day operations just doesn't sit right with me, got a gut feeling they'll grow into some really terrible NCOs who need to utilize fear tactics to have subordinates follow them.
Will my advice get you fucked up? Probably. Especially if they're working that butt buddy system but at least you'll still be right.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2016 5:10 AM

2016-04-28T05:10:23-04:00

If he has been put into a leadership position then it doesn't matter that you are the same rank. If he gives you a lawful order, follow it. In the long run, you both are in positions to learn. He is learning how to lead, and you, to follow.
To get a better point of view, think about what you would expect from your squad/team members if the roles were reversed.

Response by SPC Marcus DeMatos made Apr 28 at 2016 4:29 PM

2016-04-28T16:29:49-04:00

I'm reminded of the fact that billeting is covered under regulations... I'll use my own active time as an example (even though my command chose to ignore the regulation...) 1. When an enlisted member is assigned to a billet two grades or more above their rank, they are to be advanced to the next rank of junior NCO to designate their authority -- i.e. E-3 in an E-5 billet would become an E-4 Corporal (or in my case I filled an E-6 slot as the Battalion Medical Supply NCO, so I should have been advanced from E-4 Specialist to E-4 Corporal). This is mentioned in part in AR 600-8-19, 7-22.
In regards to this question of two individuals of same rank, it is ultimately the regulations regarding good order and discipline. Whether in formal formation or within visual observation of other soldiers, it is good discipline to show respect for position/billet. In most cases where there is not a formal directive or duty taking being undertaken (i.e. a work detail) there is rarely a case of conflict for two E-4s working together.

Response by MSG Pat Colby made Apr 28 at 2016 5:32 PM

2016-04-28T17:32:32-04:00

There are two types of Powers. Power by Rank and Power by Authority (Position). Publicly locking the heels of someone that is the same rank is a power trip and will make for a shitty leader down the line. If a SPC (Or even a SFC vs SFC in a similar circumstance) needs correction, Take the subordinate aside and explain the Power of Authority. Involve the next higher in the NCO chain while doing the counseling..

Response by SGT Adam Krueger made Apr 28 at 2016 5:35 PM

2016-04-28T17:35:10-04:00

Respect the position. My platoon leader and sergeant had a meeting with everyone when I promoted into a team leader role before I got my stripes and told everyone treat me like an NCO regardless of what rank I had on my chest currently. I ran into a similar situation also when I was an E-5 Squad Leader with E-5 Team Leaders under me. They stood at parade rest for me because of the position, just like I stood at parade rest for the other E-6 Squad Leaders. Be the example for the younger guys in your squad and do what is right.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2016 5:40 PM

2016-04-28T17:40:00-04:00

If they want to be treated like NCOs then the commander needs to put in lateral appointments to corporal. Corporals outrank all specialists. So a SPC in any unit affords appropriate courtesies to all CPLs and NCOs are backed by the MCM which is military law. When any two privates first class are together, one is always in charge based on legal position according to AR 600-20. This doesn't mean PFCs will stsnd at parade rest for other PFCs. I do agree that if a unit puts a SPC in charge of another SPC then that SPC needs to subordinate them self but if the command has that faith in the first SPC, put stripes on them and send them to the board.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2016 7:41 PM

2016-04-28T19:41:40-04:00

It is the position that they hold. Give them the courtesy because one day you will be placed in a position of authority and will want that courtesy without hesitation. You might find it ridiculous at the moment but you might appreciate what you were taught. Take what you can from each Leader, even if it is how not to be.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2016 7:52 PM

2016-04-28T19:52:27-04:00

There is a good chance that higher up is telling them to correct soldiers for not standing at parade rest. Just do both of you a favor and just do it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2016 8:54 PM

2016-04-28T20:54:32-04:00

Being in a leadership position isn't easy and requires a lot of dedication. Just because you are the same rank doesn't mean you dont have to show them the same courtesy as if it were a SGT in that position. Your team leaders are only enforcing the standards that are expected from them. Give them the time of day and perform your job well. That's what they expect from you the most. Being able to follow simple orders shows them you will be ready for their position soon.

Response by SFC Don Ward made Apr 28 at 2016 10:17 PM

2016-04-28T22:17:22-04:00

If they want to make a team leader, they should do a lateral to corporal instead of leaving them a specialist.. I have never seen anyplace that put a soldier in that kind of a difficult position, being a specialist and being "in charge" of other specialists. Put it this way, who puts green tabs on a specialist?

Response by CPL Jay Strickland made Apr 28 at 2016 11:57 PM

2016-04-28T23:57:02-04:00

There are two types of authority. 1 is by Rank and 2 is by position. They have authority by position if you fall under them you need to give them respect and address them by rank. If they are in the same squad I would say also give them that respect as well maybe even the same platoon depending on the size of your unit. As a side note that corrective training for not calling them specialist is almost certainly not their idea, that sort of thing usually comes from a Squad leader or Platoon Sergeant.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2016 12:00 PM

2016-04-29T12:00:42-04:00

is thier assignment above you thats the question, if yes then yes, as a ssgt(p), i was asighned field 1sg, that meant i was in charge period, did my head blow up no, did the nco's above me, get ass hurt no, the csm made that decision and they lived with it i did my job and they thiers, its about leadership training, some can do it other cant but you have to sometimes throw them into the pit to see what they can do, no education can replace experience

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2016 4:21 PM

2016-04-29T16:21:58-04:00

Nope. They're letting position get to them. You're clear. If those other Specs are being douches about it, point them to the regs surrounding the movement to Parade Rest, Attention, etc. Being form an Infantry unit, I know they always make you go to Parade Rest for those above you, NCO or otherwise. But I quickly dismissed that (much to my former TL's disagreement) as it does not coincide with Army Regulation. You're good man. Just be respectful about it, and do it away from the Privates. And just for you SA; Specialists cannot administer corrective training. They can do additional PT WITH their Joe, but cannot smoke them. They do not have the authority, as they are not NCOs.

Response by SGT Jason Keefer made Apr 30 at 2016 4:41 AM

2016-04-30T04:41:45-04:00

In the Artillery units I was a part of, these individuals were made Corporals to make their NCO status clear to everyone else. However, the position grants authority. It's best to respect that before you end up reading about it.

Response by SPC Christopher Perrien made May 1 at 2016 3:15 PM

2016-05-01T15:15:50-04:00

LOL, They are as-sholes. Your sergeants and unit sounds defective to let this occur.

Response by SPC Dennis Escobar made May 3 at 2016 3:46 PM

2016-05-03T15:46:04-04:00

I will ask you a question. When have you seen an NCO or Senior NCO talking between themselves addressing each other by first or last name only? I got smoked by my 1SG once because I allowed another specialist To talked to me qhile he was smoking and me being his senior. Just do it and respect them.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 5:07 AM

2016-05-05T05:07:13-04:00

It would be just like a civilian job, just without rank. I have a problem with guys who don't respect the position because that guy who may have the same rank, but are being held to the E5 position are being treated as that E5, but everyone else disrespects that soldier because they are still a specialist. If the unit really wanted to treat that specialist as a team leader, my opinion would be to laterally promote then to CPL. It's the most logical decision and it is the reason that the rank still exists.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 9:25 AM

2016-05-05T09:25:46-04:00

Since they are the "Team Leaders" you should '...Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.'

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 10:14 AM

2016-05-05T10:14:45-04:00

As an E-5 I bitch at airman that don't call me by my first name when its just us...around others its a different story. But if an airman and I are working together on an airplane and shooting the shit...don't call me Sgt.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2016 7:42 AM

2016-05-07T07:42:29-04:00

Let me break it down to you Barney Style: Billet outranks rank.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2016 8:59 AM

2016-05-07T08:59:03-04:00

This is probably something that is expected from within your command. Any place that I have ever been (Army Aviation) this was not a thing. Example: our battalion CSM would never have stood at parade rest to address the brigade CSM.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2016 10:04 AM

2016-05-07T10:04:40-04:00

TC 3-21.5 Para. 4-2 (3) Note states " enlisted Soldiers assume this position when addressing all noncommissioned officers or when noncommissioned officers address noncommissioned officers of superior rank." In your case, this is interpretive. There is no reg stating such, BUT if you don't want to be hemmed up by your squad leader you would be well advised not to rock the boat. A simple method is in place already to address this problem. Those team leaders should be corporal's, not specialists. That is the entire point of that rank in the modern army.

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made May 7 at 2016 10:58 AM

2016-05-07T10:58:48-04:00

Not sure what goes on in the Army, but in the Navy petty officers regardless of grade acted like colleagues, and called each other by first names. We would regard a demand for "address me by my rank" as an indication that a person had lost their mind.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2016 2:50 PM

2016-05-07T14:50:26-04:00

By the fact that the SPC is a team leader he does have the authority that his position is entitled to. Many years ago I was assigned to an Infantry unit that was being re-organized into a Stryker unit. As a Tanker I had very little contact with Corporals (not really a rank given in the Tank world). As a Sergeant I outranked all of the non E-5 team leaders. At one point I was cross attached to an infantry platoon because my platoon had too many E-5's then MTOE allowed. I was slotted in with a fire team that had a corporal team leader. the Squad SGT (an E-6) made it known that I was answerable to him alone, but when it came down to it I would do as my team leader instructed within reason. I had a great working relationship with this Corporal and learned from him as much as he learned from me. In that situation the boundries were set out on what was expected. If that team leader instructed me to perform a specific action as long as it related to my specific duties as a rifleman then he was in the right. At the same time I could not just ignore his instructions because I outranked him. It was a lot of give and take. I suggest that if you believe that there is a problem or situation talk to the next higher in your CoC ; Most likely your Squad Leader. Have your team leader present and make your thoughts known.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2016 6:11 PM

2016-05-07T18:11:56-04:00

No you don't and its not written in any reg, that SPC should be laterally promoted to Corporal to prevent that kind of issue

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 4:34 PM

2016-05-12T16:34:28-04:00

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 11:09 PM

2016-05-17T23:09:57-04:00

You do have to stand at parade read because that specialist is in a leadership role. I have asked that same question because when I was active duty, I was placed in a team leader position. I also was required to inspect my soldiers along with their living quarters and counsel them monthly or when they screwed up.

Response by SGT Timothy Summers made May 18 at 2016 1:54 AM

2016-05-18T01:54:35-04:00

I have seen this before when my Plt (2nd Plt B. Co. 1-187th In. Leader Rakkasans) was training up for deployment to Afghanistan (OEF 10-11). We had a Squad Leader (E-5) and two Spc. Team Leaders and we had to stand at PR for each of them. I was a Spc as well at the time with more time in service/ grade than both put together (prior service). It wasn't to offend/ disrespect anyone, but to teach the lower enlisted who weren't TLs respect for both Rank/ Position.
I also had to deal with this same arrangement when I was being Med-Boarded from Fort Bliss, TX. We had a PFC who passed SFAS and was promoted by the PSG to Team Leader and we were told that even if we were a Spc who was not a TL, we would have to stand at PR for this kid. Needless to say I was pissed because I didn't agree with the arrangement and because of my experience in combat, which of course, this kid (19 years old) had been in for maybe 1 year.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2016 4:31 AM

2016-05-20T04:31:40-04:00

Ar 6-22 army leadership

Response by SPC Paul Davis made May 26 at 2016 10:33 PM

2016-05-26T22:33:20-04:00

My advice to you.Lead by example .play along.one day it'll be you're turn. Kill with kindness.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2016 7:00 PM

2016-05-30T19:00:48-04:00

Wow -- this happen to me back in the day -- Fort Lewis, WA -- I Corp HHC, and there was another SPC giving me instructions and telling me to go to parade rest, I was also SPC and at the time thought that was weird and inappropriate. Little did I know rank is one thing but TIME IN GRADE is another, any SPC with more months/years than me technically outrank me AND of course by position, as some of the other comments here have suggested. No worries, keep your head up and believe me your time will come. Good luck!

Response by SGT Shawn Schweinberg made May 30 at 2016 8:17 PM

2016-05-30T20:17:09-04:00

Yes but only if they are in your chain of leadership. I.E.: SQD teams another
I'm not talking about CPL's. Only SPC's.

Response by SPC Dawn Appelberg (Johnson) made Jun 3 at 2016 11:30 AM

2016-06-03T11:30:42-04:00

FM 7-21.13 does not say that Parade Rest is a position reserved for NCOs, but that "Simple courtesy is an important indicator of a person’s bearing, discipline, and manners." That is why we have PV1 - PFC stand at Parade Rest and address SPC and above by their rank in my unit. As a SPC, you have to start separating yourself from other junior enlisted and start making the transition from just being a Soldier, to being a Soldier and a leader.

Now, in this instance, I would not say that the SPC would necessarily have to stand at Parade Rest when speaking to this other SPC. Especially if he/she is senior in rank. Just like I would not stand at Parade Rest for an NCO of equal rank to me. However, other courtesies should be followed such as; not arguing with Squad Leader in front of junior enlisted, following directions of said Squad Leader, and just giving that person the basic respect and assistance to help them keep the squad operating properly.

Straight JACKED this answer off
http://community.armystudyguide.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/ [login to see] /m/ [login to see]
Thank You RedLeg81!!!!

parade rest - Topic

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2017 6:00 PM

2017-07-29T18:00:34-04:00

There is no regulation however, if they are slotted by TDA, and duty positions in an E-5 slot then yes you must stand at parade rest and address them as such. Duty position, time in grade and service are covered in the refs.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2017 9:52 PM

2017-10-22T21:52:59-04:00

I think the position is important enough to respect their wishes. I was a team leader in the infantry as a specialist before I commissioned. Now that I'm in MEDCOM I see company commanders as captains with entire hospital departments in their company. Department chiefs at my hospital are usually COLs. You just gotta be professional about the position. especially in front of their joes.

Response by SSG Marshall Paul made Oct 23 at 2017 12:10 AM

2017-10-23T00:10:03-04:00

The infantry has changed, I guess. Y'all act this way in Afghanistan? Is this the way the rest of the army works? Well, I have noticed little references to the Vietnam vets not being from a professional army, but this smacks of a bunch of martinets with only tangential combat.

Response by SPC Corbin Doades made Oct 23 at 2017 12:47 AM

2017-10-23T00:47:51-04:00

I ran into a situation somewhat similar to this back in 2008. I had just been placed as Team Leader and had another SPC and a fresh out of basic Private under me. The other SPC and myself had talked and came to the conclusion that we would treat each other as equals and that any corrective action that needed to be done would involve the squad leader until I received my Corporal stripes.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2017 4:00 AM

2017-10-23T04:00:10-04:00

Yeah, if that ever happens to me, I am finding the nearest NCO who knows me and having said Specialist participate copious corrective training. I address COLs for LTs and advise CPTs on what needs to be done to ensure their company is mission capable because of my expertise. I would never dream of even asking someone to stand at parade rest for me. Even on my JNN team. Regardless of position these are my peers and outside of my duty to run my JNN and train them, I treat them as such. Maybe you can do it by regulation or virtue of position but a true leader is humble and that is not showing humility.

Response by SFC Steve Christian made Oct 23 at 2017 9:07 AM

2017-10-23T09:07:48-04:00

They should go back to making specialist who are team leaders corporals.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2017 9:14 AM

2017-10-23T09:14:17-04:00

Used to be that we would laterally appoint E-4s in this situation to Corporal and be done with it. I guess this has fallen out of fashion.
Regardless, the Team Leader is in charge of you, and if that is how he wants to run his team then that is how it is. He needs all of his troops to respond to his orders with discipline and adroitly, else shit goes sideways when things need to get done under duress.
Choose the hill you want to die on, but this is not it.

Response by SGT Jeremy Nelson made Oct 23 at 2017 10:37 AM

2017-10-23T10:37:06-04:00

This can be a really difficult situation. I was a 25U in a combat unit. At the company level the commo guy is supposed to be a SGT. They work directly with the XO and 1SG to keep commo supplies on hand, communications working and is directly responsible for training for the troop. Attending training meetings, scheduling training time. To make this worse my wife is the FRG leader for the troop as the 1SG is single (wife and I are both older).

So flash forward to Iraq (my second deployment with this troop) and the commander makes it clear that I'm to be referred to as "specialist" and anyone that wakes me up for bullshit has him to deal with. Makes for an uncomfortable situation as someone that joined with significant civilian managerial and supervisory experience it made me uncomfortable, it wasn't really my leadership style. But I did hold an E5 position and I was put in charge of commo and the armory for the troop. How did I deal with the situation? I made SGT as quickly as I could, then moved up to Squadron so I could continue to work 2 up. Did that fix the problem? Kinda I still had to fill in for the PSG and Sigo often, but at least I felt better about it having stripes.

Response by SPC Kevin Kilch made Oct 23 at 2017 5:06 PM

2017-10-23T17:06:03-04:00

I'm pretty sure there are two reasons you should go to parade rest. One is if the person in question is an NCO or higher. That's the most obvious.

The second isnt so obvious but makes perfect sense. Even if you hold the same rank as your leader, this person is still in a position of authority over you. Whether or not there is a regulation for it, in my opinion, an E-3 or E-4 in an E-5 or E-6 slot should be treated with the same respect as someone with the actual rank. Responsibility was delegated to them and NCOs should back these E-4s up. You shouldnt let your pride fly in the face of their authority.

To give a little perspective, In Korea back in 2008 there was a shortage of incoming NCOs for our MOS. Didn't matter that one of our sections had 2 SSGs, They weren't the same MOS as our section, so I was put into an E-5 Team Chief slot as a PFC for an indefinite period of time (turned out to be about 3 or 4 months) until an E-5 could be transferred in. During that time, I did everything an NCO would do including counseling statements. The NCOs backed up everything I did as if I were an actual NCO and my team (which had other PFCs in the mix) respected my position and did everything I required of them. I never put any at parade rest because I had some great guys and because as a PFC because I felt that was a little over the top versus being a SPC and doing the same, but I see no reason why they shouldnt have gone to that position if I had told them to for the duration of time I held that E-5 slot.

Response by SPC Wilkens Valme made Nov 19 at 2017 8:10 PM

2017-11-19T20:10:28-05:00

Yea cause he is an acting sgt

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Mar 3 at 2018 4:35 PM

2018-03-03T16:35:37-05:00

You do not need and AR what you need is a definition of Respect for Authority I believe when you enlisted you took an oath and it said your would follow the orders of dah, dah, dah, or anyone appointed above me (or something like that) either way you have admitted they are Team Leaders by position of Authority they can require such actions of you. As Far as the corrective Training I think that should be reserved for the NCO in charge of them until they are pinned Hard strip and complete a leadership course. Just my thoughts not the law.

Response by SSG Lon Watson made May 26 at 2018 5:51 PM

2018-05-26T17:51:50-04:00

It’s kind of funny, but the only people who seem to be having a negative response to this question is specialists and privates. Jealous much???

Response by SGT James Lilly made Oct 1 at 2018 3:57 PM

2018-10-01T15:57:49-04:00

I was a SPC team leader years ago. It sucked all around. Your peers felt you had abandoned the E4 Mafia and those above you handed you every shit detail to come around. If my leaders wanted my subordinates to stand at parade rest, I had a talk with my subordinates to ensure we had to play the game, yet I detailed how shit rolled down hill and I was at the base of that hill. I further explained that during moments where corrective action or discipline were needed, I would execute what was deemed necessary and getting at parade rest would be required and probably smart. I say that because even after I earned my stripes, when someone got at parade rest to address me, I was humbled by the act as my rank was recognized as being a leader of soldiers and I needed to act as such. My advice is just get at parade rest, that guy is getting shit on left and right.

Response by SSG Ronald Bihr made Oct 1 at 2018 5:06 PM

2018-10-01T17:06:46-04:00

You must learn to follow, to be a good leader. Respect your team leaders, their job is hard enough. They are young leaders learning just as you are. Your turn to lead will come soon enough, respect is earned. So be willing to show respect, to these young leaders, I bet when it is your turn to lead you will also appreciate young Soldiers showing you the same respect.

Response by CPT Jd Barry made Oct 1 at 2018 9:08 PM

2018-10-01T21:08:36-04:00

I was once a 1LT platoon leader, with a 1LT company commander. I saluted my commander, came to attention, and addressed him a sir.

It’s not just about rank.

Response by CSM Andrew Perrault made Oct 2 at 2018 9:13 AM

2018-10-02T09:13:25-04:00

The Platoon Sergeant should be asking for CPL appointments …..that will settle the issue. My personal view is you NEVER put someone that get's promoted in charge of Soldiers that they worked with/team buddies. Move them to a different squad or platoon......

Response by SPC Joshua Forman made Oct 2 at 2018 3:34 PM

2018-10-02T15:34:32-04:00

http://gordon.army.mil/sharp/downloads/Army_Command_Policy_AR_600-20.pdf

Command directed authority. If a specialist gives a lawful order to a subordinate lower enlisted within his direct chain of command (ie: the direct reports within his team / squad) the subordinate must comply. At minimum, A specialist is not an NCO, but his / her authority is derived as an extension of the next level within the chain of command. I suppose, in the end though, it depends on the level of discipline for the specific unit.

Army_Command_Policy_AR_600-20.pdf

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2018 8:05 PM

2018-10-02T20:05:33-04:00

Yes, if you were given a directive by an NCO or officer.

Response by SSG Michael Raysses made Oct 2 at 2018 8:45 PM

2018-10-02T20:45:02-04:00

Hey ROMEO-PAPA?... start climbing down off your RETARDED HIGH HORSE pedestal.. and start addressing REAL ISSUES!!!.. gimme a break!.. I was a SSG, and I didn't require my troops to "lock it up" when they saw me!.. I was always greeted with " Hey SERGEANT/Hey SSG Raysses!... no more ... no less... my troops respected me, and I respected them!... this BS of coming to PR when a fellow SAME RANK trooper comes in view??.. yeaaa suuure!... gimme a break, fellas!... SSG Mike Raysses, (92G-30) USAR, Ret.... HOOAH!..

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2018 8:57 PM

2018-10-02T20:57:01-04:00

Bullshit. The position can be respected without going to parade rest. The Specialist attempting to require “parade rest subservience, is showing that he/she isn’t worthy of the respect. IMHO.

Response by SSG Billyray Musselman made Oct 3 at 2018 7:03 AM

2018-10-03T07:03:05-04:00

Its an infantry thing, I’ve delt with it too. It’s common practice. The self discipline in the infantry is something that you will vaguely see alseware throughout every army mos.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2018 10:19 AM

2018-10-03T10:19:43-04:00

I agree with the others on here and respect their input. You have to remember that even though your team leaders are Specialists like you, they have been placed in a team leader position, which is a NCO position. Customs and courtesies go a long way in the military and you need to be the example for other soldiers to emulate. One day you could be put in that position and you will want the respect from your subordinates.

With them wanting you to address them as Specialist, I respect that of them. I will address other Sergeants who are my peers by their rank, even as a squad leader I still give my SGT team leaders that respect because they earned it. I had a 1SG who instilled that in me when I was a PVT.

Remember the 3rd sentence of the last stanza in the Creed of the Noncomissioned Officer: I will be loyal to those with whom I serve; seniors, peers and subordinates alike.

Response by SP5 Hank Vandenburgh PhD made Oct 3 at 2018 3:47 PM

2018-10-03T15:47:46-04:00

I heard of going to parade rest for NCOs. Long after my time. Stupid. What is this? Der Wehrmacht?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2018 9:34 PM

2018-10-03T21:34:18-04:00

You should be defaulting to that, it’s discipline. If you have a problem with it, be better than one of them and take their spot.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2018 1:47 AM

2018-10-04T01:47:49-04:00

To answer your question: no, their is no AR (or FM) that requires a SPC (or PVT, PV2, or PFC) to stand at parade rest for a SPC, regardless of the position that SPC is assigned. Reference is FM 7-21.13, Ch 4.
Now, to the question you didn't ask: should you stand at parade rest for the SPC assigned as team leader? Yes, for most of the various reasons others have stated.
As a SFC attending ANCOC (SLC) I stood at parade rest for SSGs who were BNCOC (SLC) cadre at the NCOA. That was NCOA policy and I didn't have a problem with it there, or other schools I attended. I did it because it was the right thing to do, and because I wasn't going fo provide the opportunity for those few in such positions that seek out higher ranking NCOs ao they can "put them" at parade rest.
I have also been in units where PVT-PFC would stand at parade rest for SPC. Not a UCMJ actionable "offense" for failing to do so, but there were consequences (e.g., Iron Mike's).
There is nothing wrong with going to parade rest for your TM LDR, it demonstrates respect for the position, and builds your own self discipline.

Response by LTC Ken Connolly made Oct 4 at 2018 7:21 AM

2018-10-04T07:21:39-04:00

Assuming the position of parade rest every time you have a conversation with your team leader is a bit over the top. Using rank and last name are always appropriate. In any case, as the position states, the SPC is your leader and tradition and regulations dictate parade rest and addressing the team leader in the appropriate manner is required. In order to clearly draw the line on pay grade vice position, consideration should be given to converting the team leader to Corporal.

Response by SPC Mike Davis made Oct 4 at 2018 8:13 AM

2018-10-04T08:13:55-04:00

Thankfully when I was active (1959-1962) enlisted just talked to each other and got things done. Always had the highest respect for my sgt's. They knew what they were doing and never let us get grief from the O crowd.

Response by SGT Chad Berck made Oct 4 at 2018 4:55 PM

2018-10-04T16:55:16-04:00

Don’t be that guy. Work with the team leader to make his or her job easier. Be a future leader and a role model for younger soldiers, who are watching and listening. Plus, when your in the leadership role, hurt feelings of those you scorned may come back to burn YOU. Be a Team builder.

Response by SCPO Derek Lindsay made Oct 5 at 2018 9:19 AM

2018-10-05T09:19:20-04:00

Review your general orders, your enlistment oath and also address the power issue with your support chain. ‘I will obey the orders of those appointed over me’ sound familiar?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2018 9:51 AM

2018-10-05T09:51:11-04:00

As an 0-3 I was fortunate enough to be selected for Company Command. My Company had many officers who outranked me including an 0-6 Dentist and many Senior Enlisted with 17, 20 and more years of service. I has no trouble Commanding the unit because everyone understood the difference between Rank and Position as I understood the incredible wealth of knowledge retained in those higher ranking Officers AND Senior NCOs. We all have our roll and function. Be part of the team. Know your roll and function and do it well.

Response by SPC Ronald Vera made Oct 5 at 2018 10:11 AM

2018-10-05T10:11:25-04:00

They are team leaders, which is an NCO position typically, give them the same respect you would a Corporal or Sergeant. Your example is what the junior soldiers will follow, if you show them a lack of respect so will the soldiers that look to you as an example. Dont be a blue falcon bro!

Response by SSG Grant Hansen made Oct 5 at 2018 11:02 AM

2018-10-05T11:02:42-04:00

As far as I remember, there is nothing that is officially in the regulations. However, because he is the one in charge, he gets to make the rules.

My personal opinion is that one So making another Specialist call him by rank is a seriously stupid thing and makes them look like a complete dick. They forget they can lose that positional authority in a heartbeat and will have to deal with the repercussions of their actions.

Response by PO2 Seth Carron made Oct 5 at 2018 5:52 PM

2018-10-05T17:52:52-04:00

Situational authority. The military is full of it. Not necessarily a bad thing, because sometimes even higher ranking personnel mess up. If you had to outrank someone to stop them from doing something dangerous, wrong or even illegal, it would open up the possibility of a high ranking individual being able to do whatever he wants with no impunity until someone with a high enough rank steps in. Best example I can think of (and this is coming from a squid mind you,) say you work in the armory, and you're a specialist/corporal, maybe a sergeant. An LT comes in to get a weapon from you, but isnt qualified to have one, so you can't issue him one. He tries to throw rank, but rules are rules. He might outrank you, but it's your armory. You do have the authority to (respectfully) tell him no.

Response by Tom Drayer made Oct 6 at 2018 1:26 PM

2018-10-06T13:26:36-04:00

Strongly agree with all of the comments below. They were well stated and valid to their points. A further note, if you should ever separate from the military and enter into the fire service or law enforcement (both paramilitary disciplines) you’ll find that although rank is important within respective agencies, there is no rank structure within the Incident Command System. All authority and/or responsibility is positional.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2018 4:09 PM

2018-10-06T16:09:49-04:00

Specialist, so I presently PCS'ed into a unit that is short on E-8's, on of the 1SG's is actually a SFC, I am a SFC also....when he says "Fall In".....guess what I do? I Fall In and follow the commands from the tower!

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2018 2:23 PM

2018-10-07T14:23:29-04:00

I believe they out rank you by position. Just like a Company Commander who is still an LT. He should respect other Captain's rank that are Company Commanders but is equal by position. And should be treated as such.

Response by SGT John Evans made Oct 7 at 2018 4:33 PM

2018-10-07T16:33:35-04:00

When i first joined, it was on the split option in a NG unit. When i reported after basic training, i was amazed that everyone was on a first name basis except for officers, and how casual everything was. Everyone did their job, and followed orders. I hate to say it, but, there was almost no professional courtesy.
After AIT, and i went on into the army, it was totally different. But, I'll never forget that NG unit.

Response by SFC Siva Williams made Oct 7 at 2018 5:25 PM

2018-10-07T17:25:36-04:00

There's no regulation that calls for a SPC to stand at Parade Rest for another SPC. Save that for when they are laterally promoted or promoted to SGT. Funny thing about advancing to the rank of E-5. You never know which SPC will advance ahead of the others. So the SPC could be team leader today but come the 1st they must step aside for the guy that they tried to make stand at parade rest. I ran into this situation several times. PLDC (primary leadership development course) was one such time. There were some SPC that didn't put forth much effort or support the designated squad leader. But when it was their turn the authoritarian switch was flipped. A similar scenario played out in my first unit. My platoon sergeant put me in charge of the clinic (McGregor Range) and another specialist in charge when we were on main post. He let it get to his head and start acting like an ass. This lasted for a few months then I was promoted to SGT. Bottom line is you should treat others how you want to be treated.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2018 12:21 AM

2018-10-08T00:21:32-04:00

Sound like a bunch of desperate, egotistical team leaders who get off on having power. This is how bad leadership is created.

Response by SPC Marc Coyle made Oct 8 at 2018 7:00 AM

2018-10-08T07:00:21-04:00

Everyone posting a comment here is correct. Another thing to keep in mind is that everyone has a different leadership style. This specialist has been placed in a leadership position. He is obviously doing his best to assert this. Just because there is no regulation requiring doesn't mean he's wrong. Quit worrying about what's correct and do what is right. If the others on the team see you butt heads on this, they will follow suit. The correct thing is to take it to your ncoic and complain. The right thing to do, is to accept his position of authority and offer him the same respect you would give a full nco.

Response by SGT Donnie Goodson made Oct 8 at 2018 2:17 PM

2018-10-08T14:17:27-04:00

It's not the "Chain of Rank.". It's the Chain of Command.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2018 10:38 PM

2018-10-08T22:38:32-04:00

Doc Richardson,
Your question reminds me of a point in my career when I was assigned to an Infantry Stryker company. I was assigned to the MGS Plt; but because we were over staffed in E-5’s I was assigned to one of the INF. Plt’s as a Vehicle Commander. The way they did the CoC was that the Vehicle crews were assigned to one of the fire teams in each squad. The team leader of my assigned fire team was a Cpl and I was a SGT. It was discussed with the squad leader and the Plt SGT upon my assignment with myself and the team leader present just on where his “authority “ over me stopped. There was a line drawn in the sand so to say. Doesn’t mean that when he performed corrective training (ie. pushups) on the team I didn’t participate. I was a member of the team and by position he was in charge. There were points between him and me when I suggested that we take the issue to the squad leader to solve.
My point is when in doubt follow the order then get clarification from up higher as needed.

Response by CW3 Steven Pigott made Oct 8 at 2018 10:38 PM

2018-10-08T22:38:47-04:00

I can summarize: I was an E6 when I finally caught a slot to go Airborne. I had and O-6 full bird in my platoon (student platoon sgt). When I called the platoon to Attn - he responded the same as the E-2 Pvt.

Response by SPC Mitch Saret made Oct 13 at 2018 4:18 PM

2018-10-13T16:18:51-04:00

I had this issue too, when I was a specialist. I was along the lines of "hey, you're not there yet buddy." But in reality, if they were promoted before you, and they are in a leadership position over you, they outrank you. You say you respect they are team leaders, yet don't give them the courtesy due their position. I am sorry to say it sounds like you do need, as I did, some corrective training.

Response by SFC Wayne Theilen made Nov 9 at 2018 1:29 PM

2018-11-09T13:29:22-05:00

Back in my day. You went behind the tank and handled your business. 2 men enter 1 man leaves to go buy the beer. But I’m just a old retired E-7. What do I know

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Nov 17 at 2018 1:12 AM

2018-11-17T01:12:49-05:00

Proper military courtesy is what it's called. That and they were promoted not only to SPC before you, but they also were selected as squad leaders. RHIP, the oldest term for you respect me and the position I fill and I'll respect yours. Even as low SPC on the totem pole.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Nov 17 at 2018 5:39 AM

2018-11-17T05:39:43-05:00

1. Were you in formation?
2. Were they giving you orders while they were in a position of leadership?
3. Were you refusing orders while they were in a position of leadership?

Note: You should address by their Position over you - not their Rank.
i.e. "Team Leader", "Squad Leader" etc, as this reminds you (and everyone else) that there is a formal relationship between you and the leader.
It might be better if your commander promoted him to Corporal, but that's his choice.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2018 9:16 AM

2018-11-25T09:16:10-05:00

Sounds like your squad leader has turned chicken-shit. Make sergeant as fast as you can. In the mean time go to parade rest etc. play the game until you can either PCS or outrank his ass.

Response by SPC Daniel Rankin made Nov 25 at 2018 6:35 PM

2018-11-25T18:35:04-05:00

No they can not give a direct order for this unless the sgt in charge has said in advance, he is the trainer in charge and as long as the are in training mode yes, but once out of training mode no. Because each and every of of those specialists will get their turn. And what goes around comes around.

Response by SP6 Mike Canant made Nov 30 at 2018 2:03 PM

2018-11-30T14:03:20-05:00

Go to parade rest or whatever else they tell you to do. As stated they are holding a leadership billet.
They are on thinner ice than you and every dog has his day.

Response by SP6 Mike Canant made Nov 30 at 2018 2:08 PM

2018-11-30T14:08:12-05:00

Go ahead and parade rest for them. They are in a temporary leadership billet and their position should be respected. If they like chicken sh#t let them have it. Their temporary status can melt like a snowflake on a hot rock. They are on thinner ice than you.
MC
C co.
2/47th mech inf
RVN 1967-1968

Response by SCPO Lonny Randolph made Dec 10 at 2018 3:16 PM

2018-12-10T15:16:46-05:00

Guess this old retired squid doesn't get it... are you folks telling me that you Army types are so impressed by your position of authority within the chain of command that you actually require a person under your control to stand at parade rest while speaking to you? In 20 years of abusing other peoples children it would NEVER have occurred to me that my people would have to assume some special stance before I could provide instruction, give an order or communicate. I never expected my people to stand at attention or parade rest unless they were in formation. What's next hand salutes from E-3's to E-4's? Perhaps two members have to compare service jackets to determine who made rank first so they can decide who is the head honcho? With all due regard and respect for my Brothers and Sisters of a different cloth, I can't believe this topic is even a topic...

Response by SGT Xavier L. McNeil made Dec 25 at 2018 5:30 AM

2018-12-25T05:30:39-05:00

I don’t believe that to be correct. When I was a Corporal E-4 Specialist attempted to give me trouble because they say we are both E-4 which is true but one is an NCO and the other is not. So in the first incident I teach. The second occurrence I bring the pain. I actually had way less issues as a SGT/E-5

Response by SGT Mark Saint Cyr made Jan 2 at 2019 9:27 PM

2019-01-02T21:27:46-05:00

The only regulation I know re: going to PR for another specialist, is what is his Line/Duty position on the unit's TO&E? If he's in a leadership billet, then you respect the duty position, if not the person. Period. But sergeants who know what they are doing can command that respect at any grade.

I have been in units, where the brass would use whichever sergeant needed the leadership training or experience, for the toughest job around....first sergeant. Imagine if you can, a buck sergeant, e-5 giving orders to e-7s on a daily basis. Seen it happen on more than one occasion. Often, in the HHC of one Battalion I was in they would do that with young e-5s, right before sending them off to their various leadership courses.

In such units as an HHC unit, the units practically run themselves, and it's often a way to find out if the up and comers have what it takes, before having any real responsibilities that come with the rank.

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Mar 31 at 2019 7:26 PM

2019-03-31T19:26:31-04:00

That’s why the Army must use the Corporal rank for those in leadership positions who are at pay grade E4.

Response by John H Green Jr made Mar 31 at 2019 7:36 PM

2019-03-31T19:36:01-04:00

I would say the SPCs who are leaders were done a disservice by there leaders by not making them CPLs in my opinion.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2019 7:36 PM

2019-03-31T19:36:29-04:00

Define corrective training? If your/their definition and implementation of corrective training/corrective action is not in accordance with Army regulations, you/they are wrong.

Response by SGT Gary Frank made Mar 31 at 2019 8:01 PM

2019-03-31T20:01:50-04:00

When I was in during the 80's, we didn't go into Place Rest for anyone under an E8.

Response by SP5 Hank Vandenburgh PhD made Mar 31 at 2019 8:33 PM

2019-03-31T20:33:44-04:00

The going to parade rest for NCOs (or even specialists) is pretty dumb. In the mid-60s, we would have thought you were a junior martinet for insisting on this. A martinet Army isn't a good Army.

Response by SSG Marshall Paul made Mar 31 at 2019 9:59 PM

2019-03-31T21:59:00-04:00

Wow. I know that, what's the new word, war-fighters believe that they are the best generation of soldiers, ever- but in Vietnam, airborne infantry, this would have been considered the source of chicken feces and well, I cannot imagine it or see the rationale for it. Glad I am just old.

Response by MSG Pedro Soto made Aug 3 at 2019 10:43 PM

2019-08-03T22:43:00-04:00

Spc, think about it for a little bit, if the roles were reversed and you were the one in charge, what would you said?

Response by SFC Tom Crenshaw made Aug 4 at 2019 12:58 PM

2019-08-04T12:58:19-04:00

Kick your 1sg in the gear box and tell him you possess a NCO position and should be hard stripped as a Corporal , to stop conflict.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Aug 4 at 2019 1:00 PM

2019-08-04T13:00:56-04:00

If your unit places them in a position above your own you do. In a Service or HQ Company there are often E8s in staff, they are bound to follow the orders of the 1SG. In the Field Artillery there are two SFC in the firing platoons, one is subordinate to the other. Thank you for your service.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2019 2:37 PM

2019-08-04T14:37:19-04:00

As a SFC attending ANCOC (SLC), I stood at parade rest for SSGs who were instructors for BNCOC because they were NCOA cadre.
As a SSG in the Basic Airborne Course, I stood at parade rest for Black Hat SGTs and SSGs, because they were cadre.
Don't make yourself a popup target.
It's harder to overcome being labeled as anything other than, hard charger, disciplined.
Especially, when one insists they don't have to do something just because its traditional, or the expected standard, solely because it's not written in the regulation. There will likely be a time when you want something that someone isn't 'required by regulation.' Your reputation as a team player, or not, will likely determine what happens. Don't believe corrective training, or an Article 15 are the worst thing that can happen. Awards, schools, etc., which aren't "required," are likely to be outside of your grasp.
Sure, it's unlikely that you'd receive UCMJ, as it would likely be kicked back by JAG. However, there's always an however, the phrase "contrary to the good order and discipline of the unit" comes to mind. Not a good reputation.
Finally, practice the discipline, it'll make you a better Soldier and person.

Response by SPC Paul Ezelle made Jun 11 at 2020 4:51 AM

2020-06-11T04:51:54-04:00

Dude you can tell him to go to hell. He doesn't outrank you.

Response by SPC Melody Joyce made Jun 15 at 2020 9:11 PM

2020-06-15T21:11:53-04:00

They are the team leaders, you aren’t, respect the position, it has nothing to do with rank.

Response by Col Tri Trinh made Jan 9 at 2021 6:27 PM

2021-01-09T18:27:15-05:00

You will look back in a year and wonder what this is all about. You guys are all the same rank, talk it out.

Response by SPC Jerome Henehan made Jan 10 at 2021 9:31 PM

2021-01-10T21:31:06-05:00

If they have been placed in charge, yeah- I suppose they can lock you up, you two must not be on good terms.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Sep 1 at 2021 5:21 PM

2021-09-01T17:21:41-04:00

I think it's mentioned in this one ;o)

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Sep 1 at 2021 7:36 PM

2021-09-01T19:36:20-04:00

This is chicken poo. Is there an NCO who can take corrective action?

Response by SPC Lukas Mcwhorter made Dec 15 at 2021 1:53 AM

2021-12-15T01:53:00-05:00

Oh hell no. No way.

Response by SGT Jake Ellison made Jan 14 at 2022 3:05 AM

2022-01-14T03:05:40-05:00

They are your leaders that’s why.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2022 11:06 AM

2022-01-14T11:06:41-05:00

Unless it's demeaning - a relative term for Marines - learning to follow will make you a better leader. Time will heal it.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jan 14 at 2022 4:21 PM

2022-01-14T16:21:06-05:00

They are Team leads, you are subordinate by position. What is wrong with giving them the proper courtesy. They are doing extra work for the same pay. There will always be a first among peers as long as you remain in service. It is really simple for the squad leader to order you to provide certain courtesy’s and respect that coincide with the position. Would you rather be the Soldier known as the Team player and professional, or the one who needs and order for every action. You get the picture

Response by SPC Jeremy Kessler made Jan 22 at 2022 2:05 AM

2022-01-22T02:05:08-05:00

Who has more time in rank? That's all you need to know!