Is there an AR that explains the chain of command in the instance of a detachment when subordinates outrank the commander?

2016-11-14T09:03:07-05:00

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Nov 14 at 2016 9:09 AM

2016-11-14T09:09:26-05:00

Never seen such a regulation, but authority derives not just from rank but position of athority.
A CPT, commander of HHBN, has many in his command that outrank him, from MAJ to 3 star General...And he can "Order" them to submit to an APFT, EO briefing, UA, ect.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Nov 14 at 2016 10:42 AM

2016-11-14T10:42:55-05:00

Check out AR 600-20 Command Policy and Chain of Command. It should get you close. Also this isn't at all uncommon.
A couple instances I experienced come to mind. The Defense Nuclear Agency had detachments from the Army, Navy, Air force and a very small Marine presence. each detachment had officers from CPT to COL and a Navy CPT (the most confusing rank for me). Each Detachment Commander was one of the CPTs O-3 and the senior E-7 or E-8 in the detachment performed the duties associated with a 1SG. The senior officers all fell under the O-3 for pass and leave and general admin, APFT, weapons Qual, Mandatory Training and other traditional company commander level issues. The COLs were titled as Element commanders and performed the functions associated with field grade officer command actions and UCMJ. All elements fell under an Air Force Brigadier General with an Air Force Chief Master Sergeant as Senior Enlisted Advisor.
Another was the HHB Commander for the III Corps Field Artillery. All the staff sections Commander, COS and CSM fell under the HHB CO for standard Company/ Battery level actions.
In both instances I never witnessed any issues with the Field grades or others not supporting the Officer assigned to serve as detachment Commander.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2016 10:45 AM

2016-11-14T10:45:47-05:00

I am not certain there is a hard copy regulation but I can certainly attest that the HHC for my MMB currently has a 1LT in command and there are several MAJ's and LTC's within that unit. This will certainly be one of those situations where it is "Position before Rank." Just for an added note, I'm the Detachment Sergeant for my unit and the two other SSG's I have under me BOTH outrank me by several years.

Response by SGT Robert K. made Nov 14 at 2016 11:52 AM

2016-11-14T11:52:36-05:00

Check your UMR (Unit Manning Roster), this provides the paragraph and line number for all personnel assigned to that unit/UIC - attachments will listed at the end but in no specific order. The UMR is used to provide you with information regarding who falls under who based on position/rank, however as a rear det commander you may end up with a few positions (para/lin) with more personnel assigned than authorized. As a rear det nco I had a UMR of 5 paragraph/lines with authorized strength of 10 personnel but had nearly 50 assigned. Check out this link to a rear det commanders hand book - https://www.myarmyonesource.com/cmsresources/Army OneSource/Media
A lot of good information is there, talk to the officers and nco and set up a system to make sure all personnel understand who they report to.

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Response by LTC John Shaw made Nov 14 at 2016 12:29 PM

2016-11-14T12:29:41-05:00

The best way to handle the Command issues is to align with the BN CDR on what items you can counsel and which ones go to him. (XO, S3 typically the busiest people) put out the training schedule and be aware of any Command generated conflicts well ahead of time.
When people miss and they have not provided a reason to HHC CDR/1SG issue the same counseling statement to everyone who missed, regardless of rank. Of course, this is why you make sure the BN CMDR has approved this before the events. When someone of higher rank attempts to strong arm, take it straight to the BN CDR, he must back you or your authority is dead.
If necessary flag personnel who violate the bright-line rules you have pre-approved with the Command.
Yes, HHC and HHBN are hard Commands, you have to manage the talent and that is, just what it is.
Good luck.

Response by SFC George Smith made Nov 14 at 2016 7:03 PM

2016-11-14T19:03:03-05:00

thats a Delma... there has to be some guidance... The HHC for the Pentagon has many Flag and Field Grades over the Company commander...

Response by 1SG Al Brown made Nov 14 at 2016 8:54 PM

2016-11-14T20:54:17-05:00

Every HHC Commander lives this dream. It's still a Command, except the HHC Commander must possess some tact to avoid pain. As a MSG, I received Assumption of Command orders for Detachment 1, HHC 65 EN BN. The orders were required for legal ownership of our property while deployed. I was never confused about where the COL stood in "my detachment".

Response by SGT Stuart Griffin made Apr 6 at 2017 2:16 PM

2017-04-06T14:16:17-04:00

I have not personally seen any regulations but I have seen several cases where position and experience trumped rank.
One was at a language school. We had a full colonel that was a student alongside every rank and military branch you could think of. In his own words, he said he was just a student and had no command authority over the instructors, regardless of rank.
Another example again dealt with students of many various ranks at a course that was preparing troops for deployment to, at that time, a still hostile Sarajevo and surrounding areas. There was an officer that disagreed with an NCO instructor over an issue and he threw his rank into it. The school's commander took his instructor's side of the issue due to job position over rank.

I have more experiences but the last example I will show dealt with me directly while on a deployment:
When a subordinate tosses around their rank to rule over someone in higher position of authority, it causes countless problems for everyone, not just for the leader.
While in Bosnia with NATO, I was put in charge of the team because I was the most experienced in the job. I was an E-4 at the time and everyone on the team outranked me (A USAF E-6, E-5, and a German Army E-5 equivalent).
The E-5's both accepted it but the E-6 resented it and butted heads with me a lot. He often prevented work from being done just to prove he could and threw his rank and service time in my face constantly. The detachment commander (a Dutch O-2) told me since he outranked me, his hands were tied. He'd refused to fix it.
At every turn, this E-6 defied me on anything job related, garnering complaints from the people we were supporting. Mind you, this was a real world deployment, not a training exercise.
Even several client officers and senior NCO's filed complaints because vital work wasn't getting done, but our detachment commander was still reluctant. Eventually, the E-6 was sent home early after too many complaints were leveled.
As soon as he was gone, I resumed work with just the 2 E-5's and had one officer actually quote that we got more done in the 2 weeks since he'd been gone than we had in the past 4 months. The detachment commander also had to explain to our "higher ups" why he'd allowed it to carry on for so long and jeopardize the mission.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2017 4:41 PM

2017-04-06T16:41:33-04:00

I had such a situation on my Iraq deployment. I was a PFC assigned to a SFC who was in charge of tearing down camp Charlie at cob Basra. All units at the cob would send us a detail of soldiers ranging from E2-E6. I would report to my SFC who would give me the tasks that needed to be done by the detail, and then I would brief the crew. The SFC would then attend meetings and briefings with his higher ups and leave me in charge.

What worked best for me was to lay out the work before the detail have them choose their duty, and offer any assistance I could while still over seeing then whole operation.

I never once "ordered" and NCO I would merely make request and extended them all of the respect and courtesy Their rank gave them.

It worked great the jobs got done, and never had a conflict with a higher ranking soldier. Amazing how far a little respect can go.

Response by PFC O'neal Tillery made Apr 6 at 2017 6:11 PM

2017-04-06T18:11:44-04:00

There was at one point I was the only 91B in my company, and was made the motorpool SGT, It was a complicated situation

Response by SGT Joseph Miller made Apr 6 at 2017 6:28 PM

2017-04-06T18:28:15-04:00

I ran into this problem in iraq as a military police officer doing convoy security , we has a national guard major who was convoy commander and i was a sergeant who was convoy security commander ,when one of our trucks goy hit by IED and SAF he wanted to do the whole box formation and thought he was an infantry commander wanting to counter attack and all ,I just wanted him out of the friggin kill zone and out of my friggin way so my guys could cover the recovery vehicle and recover the down vehicle and get the hell out of dodge, we got in a screaming match with him finally moving up the damn road and setting a perimeter up out of kill zone and we recovered the vehicle. Afterwards he tried to get me for disrespect but it didn't go so great for him ,as my BC set him straight, once the first shot was fired I was in command of the security and safety of the convoy not him.

Response by SGT Matt Nun made Apr 6 at 2017 7:02 PM

2017-04-06T19:02:07-04:00

A BG, a SFC, and a corporal are standing at a gate in Afghanistan. Who is the highest ranking man there? Answer: Whoever is in charge of the gate.
I've seen a number of high ranking individuals learn this the hard way.

Response by SFC Kevin Zoll made Apr 6 at 2017 7:04 PM

2017-04-06T19:04:09-04:00

There are 2 types of authority. General Miltary Authority and Command Authority. Command Authority is derived from your duty position (Leadership). As an SSG(P) and an SFC I was the HHB 1SG for 2 different HHBs. Headquarters units present unique challenges as the personnel in your immediate higher headquarters are assigned to you for accountability. Whenever I had any issues, which were very few, I would take it directly to the CSM. As a young SSG I was the platoon sergeant by virtue of my duty position, which meant I had SFCs and MSGs in my platoon as well as other SSGs who were senior to me. The only issue I had was with one of the SSGs who felt he did not have to listen to what I said. The 1SG straightened him out on what authority I held. Never had another problem with him.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2017 8:06 PM

2017-04-06T20:06:21-04:00

Easy, AR 600-20, paragraph 3

Response by 1SG Billye Jackson made Apr 6 at 2017 8:09 PM

2017-04-06T20:09:37-04:00

As an E7 I took over as a First Sargent and had an E8 as Bn Common Chief. He recognized my position, we never had a Problem.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2017 9:26 PM

2017-04-06T21:26:15-04:00

While in flight school the instructor pilots are Warrant Officers mostly CW2's and WO1's and 2nd lieutenants are the students. The BN Commander told the LT's that they will address the Instructor Pilots as Sir or Mam to ensure that they knew who were in charge

Response by Capt Glen Downey made Apr 6 at 2017 9:58 PM

2017-04-06T21:58:35-04:00

Assigned command position take precedence in many situations. In the USAF, the Aircraft Commander, no matter what rank is in charge. Most of the time I flew as AC my Mission Crew Commander outranked me. Not unusual at all.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2017 10:12 PM

2017-04-06T22:12:28-04:00

In the Coast Guard, a boat coxswain is in charge of the vessel regardless of rank. It is an every day occurrence to have an E4 completely in charge of a boat with an E5 or above on board.
The regulation is COMDINST M5000.3, article 5.1.8

Response by Sgt Lyle West made Apr 7 at 2017 2:09 AM

2017-04-07T02:09:31-04:00

Don't forget aviation. The aircraft commander (a/c), may be a WO or CWO while the peter pilot (co pilot) is an O-1 for r O-2, etc.

Response by Col Richard Roessler made Apr 7 at 2017 7:59 AM

2017-04-07T07:59:15-04:00

These situations can be sort of strange. I remember a situation where as a Lt Col my Commander was a Capt. I was in a line unit and as a medical service corps officer, I was not eligible to command.

The Capt. and I seemed to try to compete with each other to refer to each other as 'sir.' The commander came into my duty section and as he walked in I came to attention as is normal custom. After he had left a Tech asked me why I stood up for a Captain. I told him, "He's my Commander, therefore I stand as he enters a room. l'd suggest you continue to do the same regardless of what rank I happen to be."

Response by Sgt Robert Jolley made Apr 7 at 2017 11:58 AM

2017-04-07T11:58:58-04:00

Positions can be, and often are, senior by billet (organizational structure). The chain of command recognizes that billet supersedes date of rank.

Response by SGT Tony Shope made Apr 7 at 2017 12:46 PM

2017-04-07T12:46:33-04:00

I was brought to a post from Ft. Riley to an overseas small base where fraternization was rampant up to and including the post CSM. As a NCO I was put into the position of Operations Sgt where I oversaw all MP operations. I by position out ranked 70% of the other NCO's. I also came in and had to remove leaders all the way up the chain both mine and post level. I respected my fellow NCO's above me, made choices most the time involving those very NCO's in the process if I had proven they were not doing something against the UCMJ. It was a ton of bumping heads in the beginning but I had support from FORSCOM and brought fellow MP's and investigators with me. I remained in the position through out my 3 years when my rank finally matched the position and took on more responsibility. It is a balancing act that takes finesse & command support. In my initial experience it was rough as I started as a Buck Sgt from a major stateside unit and was always promote ahead of peers. But common sense was essential as it cannot be looked at as a power struggle. It is a simple fact and when adversity arises you pull that person to the side (as you should in most every adverse situation even if you out rank) and simply state this is my job. You can agree, disagree or otherwise. But I am in charge and if you cannot deal with it let me know and I will get you PCS orders to Korea in the next 24 hours. And I did do that on 3 occasions within a 5 day period.

Response by SPC Joe Haney made Apr 7 at 2017 1:09 PM

2017-04-07T13:09:46-04:00

In all military branches a butter bar is out ranked by every E4; there is nothing worse than a noob butter bar!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2017 1:40 PM

2017-04-07T13:40:53-04:00

I will give you an unusual one, back in the spring of 05 the 100th conducted WTT training for almost every unit under the command. One group that came in was 90% LTC and Full Birds, they were some type of instructors, but each group had to appoint a class leader to be in charge. Guess who the appointed the class leader, a SPC. I asked one of the officers why him, he stated the SPC keeps us all straight and he is the only one who remembers how to call cadence so we all agreed to follow him.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2017 3:01 PM

2017-04-07T15:01:39-04:00

I don't know about the Army, but in the Air Force, personnel can have either rank authority, position authority, or both. Ones rank authority does not supersedes position authority in the execution of his or her assigned duties. I'm an enlisted Air Traffic Controller. In my assigned duties, I'm an Assistant Tower Chief Controller and Watch Supervisor. While performing as a Watch Supervisor, anyone, refused less of rank, follow my direction only.

Response by SSG Steven McDanield made Apr 7 at 2017 3:31 PM

2017-04-07T15:31:13-04:00

Looking at the Examples given here reminds me of an old saying I have had occasion to use. " Don't confuse your Rank with My Authority" sir... Always gotta be respectful.

Response by Cpl Hary Gary made Apr 7 at 2017 3:33 PM

2017-04-07T15:33:26-04:00

Duty experts on mission outrank all

Response by Cpl Hary Gary made Apr 7 at 2017 3:35 PM

2017-04-07T15:35:14-04:00

Billit over rank always

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2017 5:41 PM

2017-04-07T17:41:01-04:00

I do not know if the following story is true, but I heard the General Lemay approaced AP/SPs guarding the "hot birds" and he purposley withheld his clearence identification to see what they would do.
They proned him out and detained him. As I understand it, they were both promoted and given citations. The story is definely believable, General Lemay was well before my time, but his reputation and legacy leads me to believe this may very well be true.

Response by SSG Derek Dighton made Apr 7 at 2017 5:54 PM

2017-04-07T17:54:04-04:00

I was performing a Roll On /Roll Off vessel unloading in Texas. I was the traffic control point for two ramps directing the flow of vehicles. At the time I was a Sgt E-5. A Major came up screaming and yelling about a 915 that was coming down a ramp. Chasing after it and yelling for the driver to get out. The driver stopped his tractor trailer on the ramp. I ran up yelling to get that truck moving. The Major was arguing that that vehicle needed to be operated by his people and not mine and he wanted it done now. I explained to him I did not care who operated the vehicle but it was on my ramp. And for that matter he was too. Which was a safety violation as well as stopping a vehicle on the ramp. He needed to get off my ramp and could speak to my superiors about his issue at the dock if he had further issues. I never saw him again. It was all about tact and authority.

Response by MAJ Aaron Bien made Apr 7 at 2017 6:29 PM

2017-04-07T18:29:02-04:00

I was an HHB Commander, and had authority over the BN Staff for Admin.

Response by PO2 Charlene Basden made Apr 7 at 2017 6:43 PM

2017-04-07T18:43:14-04:00

Positional authority you might outrank a higher up, but not a license to disregard proper decorum.

Response by SPC Korbin Hussong made Apr 7 at 2017 11:03 PM

2017-04-07T23:03:54-04:00

Here's a good one. MP. Private snuffy pulls over captain hooah. That mp is in charge of the situation. Private snuffy can give that captain hooah a ticket for whatever he may of done.

Response by 1LT Ryan Griffin made Apr 8 at 2017 12:31 AM

2017-04-08T00:31:24-04:00

I was a PFC (combat medic) doing a dog and pony show for a MG outside the gate. He decided it would be a good idea to take off his helmet in an open oil field. I politely told him to place his ACH back on and he told me no. After a few more nice attempts I told him "Sir I might be a PFC but when it come to medical and safety issues I am the highest ranking person her now put your damn helmet on". Now I got my ass chewed and PTed a little by my NCO, but when brought in front of the base commander ( a LtG) he said I was right and let me leave.

Response by 1SG Billye Jackson made Apr 8 at 2017 8:54 AM

2017-04-08T08:54:34-04:00

In 82 while Assn to HHC 2ID in Korea, I was the Shift Leader in the DTOC/NRS. Entry was by Asses Roster Only an DF was authorized to prevent Entry. About 2000 the Door Buzzed Rang, opened slide Window and saw a Cpt. I asked if I could Help hem, He said I'm the CG"s new Aid and was there to Inspect the TOC. Only about 30 People were authorized in the DTOC other then those who worked there, I followed SOP asked for his ID, Knowing he was not on Roster, but checked it anyway, then Informed hem he was authorized entry He started raising Hell Keep Hitting the Entry Bell. So I called MPs they Busted hem. Next AM got a Call for G3 and was told GOOD JOB and that Chief Of Staff Had a Talk with Young CPT, and that I would be Getting Updated Roster Latter. Needless to say after Ass Chewing form COS young Cpt. and I did not get along well.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2017 10:47 AM

2017-04-08T10:47:13-04:00

For mature Soldiers this does nothing but create an interesting rating scheme.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2017 4:07 PM

2017-04-08T16:07:54-04:00

AR 600-20 and the evaluation refs talk about the issue. The problem is they refer to "commanders" not DET NCOIC.

Response by CPL M4pl4gu3 . made Apr 8 at 2017 7:59 PM

2017-04-08T19:59:41-04:00

I was posted as gate guard as an E4. I turned away NCOS and officers alike without IDs, even when an E6 threatened me with an A-15.

The key is to be TACTFUL.

Response by SSG Chris Allsopp made Apr 8 at 2017 8:28 PM

2017-04-08T20:28:38-04:00

One experience I had was in a field excercise. I was detached to a unit as field support for their SATCOM guys. I was recently promoted to sergeant and was the brigade SATCOM SME. While instructing the unit SATCOM personnel an E6 gave me a huge amount of grief... Regardless, I wasted time being corrected by an E-6, as an E-5 until the battalion Commander showed up for a surprise demo. The team failed while I laughed at the sidelines. The battalion Commander was pissed. He dressed me down and demanded why I wasted time. I explained to home that even though I'm the SME, staff sergeant was not going to allow me to train. So I did what I could. Three hours later we had another surprise visit and that staff sergeant never pulled rank on me again.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2017 10:14 PM

2017-04-08T22:14:03-04:00

How about this...the commander is the commander. You have UCMJ authority over everyone in your unit. You are in command. Treat those individuals who outrank you with respect, but at the end of the day, you have the burden of command. You are responsible for ensuring the mission is accomplished.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2017 11:02 PM

2017-04-08T23:02:20-04:00

I too am the NCOIC/1SG of my unit where my position holds authority over those who outrank me... SSG USA

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2017 11:42 PM

2017-04-08T23:42:14-04:00

In medical units, the commander, an O3, is over doctors and nurses up to the rank of O6. They do what they do and if he gives an instruction, they comply. If they don't, the O3 nudges the hospital commander who is an O6. Things can get ugly from there. As such, the company commander doesn't have to nudge the O6 too much.

Response by SPC Colin Jenks made Apr 8 at 2017 11:47 PM

2017-04-08T23:47:50-04:00

A good example is an aircraft. I was a gunner when when deployed and was a PFC. The hugest rank we had in the back as crew was a SFC. We would routinely transport officers. Some wouldn't like to listen as they may be colonels or generals. But we had the authority over that aircraft so they legally had to listen to us.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2017 7:03 AM

2017-04-09T07:03:55-04:00

It grinds my gears when service members are referred to by their pay grade.

Remarks complete.

Response by MSgt Christopher Schoen made Apr 9 at 2017 9:50 AM

2017-04-09T09:50:29-04:00

Old story from my time in Germany. Four were traveling in one of those blue K-car government vehicles. Two were enlisted (in the front) and two in the back (a captain and a major). The SrA driving was distracted by the two officers in the back seat. The officers were talking loud and laughing hard. The driver requested (and respectfully asked) for them to keep it down several times. However, they chose to ignore him. The SrA had enough. He raised his voice and said, "Respectfully Sirs, SHUT THE FAWK UP...I am trying to drive". The Major told him he was in BIG trouble and when they got back to the squadron to meet up with the commander. Long story short. They all met up and the major got his ass reamed by the commander. So, for this thread, the driver of a vehicle (movement) is the COMMANDER and in charge.

Response by SSG James Dennis made Apr 9 at 2017 10:54 AM

2017-04-09T10:54:07-04:00

As a former instructor at the Basic Airborne School. Ft. Benning, GA, I remember a full bird Colonel going through jump school shortly before retiring. At the beginning of day 1, I took him aside from the rest of the stick and discussed this very topic. He was an excellent officer, replying to my directions as everyone else did, "Clear Sergeant, Airborne!" During my tenure as an instructor there I had many 2LTs, MSGs, and several foreign military servicemen to include a Prince from Jordan. The issue of rank was never broached by my stick. Respect earns respect.

Response by PO3 John Ramirez made Apr 9 at 2017 11:11 AM

2017-04-09T11:11:28-04:00

It's a matter of respect.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Apr 9 at 2017 11:48 AM

2017-04-09T11:48:29-04:00

Command relationships are usually established by the order assigning a unit (detachment) to its superior headquarters. There are different types of command:
Combatant Command: Complete command over the unit including operational and administrative control. The Secretary of Defense normally specifies this relationship.
Operational Control: Control of the operations of the subordinate unit, but administrative control is left with the original unit to which the subordinate was assigned.
Administrative Control: Control of non-operational matters, usually including UCMJ authority, assigned to a superior unit

There may be variations by Service and Combatant Command. Also Component Commanders (Air Component, Ground Component, Naval Component, etc.) may have operational control, but not Combatant Command. Operational control may be transferred during an operation. The Naval Component commander may have Operational Control of Army Forces aboard ships prior to an amphibious landing. After the troops are ashore they may transition operational control to the Ground Component Commander.

From another point of view, the Aircraft Commander has authority similar to a vessel commander. The Aircraft Commander has responsibility for and command of all personnel and equipment aboard the aircraft during the mission. This also is extended to operations just before and just after the flight while the Aircraft Commander is responsible for the aircraft, aircrew, and mission. Examples include loading and unloading the aircraft. The passengers, regardless of rank or status, are loaded with the concurrence of the Aircraft Commander. If the Aircraft Commander believes any person or piece of cargo represents a hazard to the aircraft or mission, they can be refused loading or forced to be unloaded (while the aircraft is on the ground). After landing, the operations to unload the aircraft are still the responsibility of the Aircraft Commander until either a qualified load crew or maintenance crew accepts the aircraft. In this vein, I stopped a intoxicated forklift operator from approaching "my" aircraft. I forced his boss (contract operation) to find another qualified forklift operator before we unloaded the cargo (food and supplies for the remote radar site).

Response by SSG Grant Hansen made Apr 9 at 2017 1:47 PM

2017-04-09T13:47:10-04:00

I'm not aware of any regulations, but it's well established fact that the position has more to do with authority than rank.

For example, the NCOIC or OIC of a range has more authority than anyone else in that range at that time. However, just because they are in charge, doesn't mean they have the right to be a jerk about it.

Response by MSgt MarieMax Charles Whitacre made Apr 9 at 2017 2:05 PM

2017-04-09T14:05:28-04:00

When an MP pulls you over for speeding he is in charge.

Response by Sgt Dave Payne made Apr 9 at 2017 3:09 PM

2017-04-09T15:09:01-04:00

Rank and authority are COMPLETELY different. Ask anyone that has done force protection or has been a vehicle commander. I was an E5 in Fallujah. I'd have SgtMaj, warrant officers, majors and Lt Col in my vic. They are still gibs (guys in back) and I told them what to do

Response by SFC Michael Krogmann made Apr 9 at 2017 8:53 PM

2017-04-09T20:53:01-04:00

I am not aware of any AR covering this, but as an E4 medic, I told a CSM to stand down because I was evacuating one of his soldiers. He didn't think it was necessary, but I disagreed. I have also been an instructor and taught students of a higher rank. It doesn't matter, they are the student, I am the instructor.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2017 9:42 PM

2017-04-09T21:42:11-04:00

ADP 6-22 Page 4. This should help sir.

Response by Sgt Charles Welling made Apr 9 at 2017 10:19 PM

2017-04-09T22:19:14-04:00

Good grief, why do I see so many silly as hell comments on this site coming out of the US Army? If and when you are assigned a role in the Marines and you end up with people under you that are senior to you in time in grade that is just the way it is, no regs, no silly ass BS questions, you get on with the program.

Response by Sgt Joshua Seavey made Apr 10 at 2017 12:01 AM

2017-04-10T00:01:47-04:00

It's called billets. When you are appointed to a billet, that billet holds a certain rank so they have power to do their job.

I'm speaking from Marine Corps point of view though. Good example is a Sergeant Senior Drill Instructor that has a SNCO or more as one of their Green belts. The Sergeant would have the authority over the SNCO.

Response by LtCol George Carlson made Apr 10 at 2017 12:46 AM

2017-04-10T00:46:36-04:00

I haven't read through the entire thread (I am not likely to live long enough) but get off the known "issues" which aren't issues at all. Admin units ALWAYS have personnel higher in rank than the CO. Also get off the "specialization" instance. Yes, a LT, MC, USNR can place me (a LtCol, USMC -- OK ret) on light duty and I have to comply. On a naval vessel (or an aircraft) the captain/pilot has command authority over all. The real question should be: Your company 1st Sergeant retired and a replacement is weeks out. Should you make a junior GySgt (or SFC) the acting 1st shirt? And the answer is NO! If the next senior can't do the job (in your opinion), he/she should be given the job anyway and if deficient, counseled, coached, and if still failing disciplined. You NEVER should "jump rank" in the existing chain of command. We had a "leadership problem" on this in the EOAC back in 1974 and my answer to the "what should you do about 'rank inversion' for your acting first sergeant?" My answer was that wouldn't occur in the Marine Corps (and it still is, I hope). I was Plt Cdr in a Ground Defense Company (collateral duty) in Vietnam. I got a new Plt Sgt (a GySgt) designated and he came to me and said he wasn't sure he was up to the job. He said he had been in Clubs since he was a Cpl. I told him that he better be prepared to give it his best and if not measuring up be prepared to lose a rocker or maybe two. We were all "other than infantry" by MOS, but every Marine is a rifleman and every NCO, SNCO, and officer an infantry leader when required. Did we have the same training and experience as the grunts out on the line? Hell no! But if Charlie got to our designated positions, bluntly, we were "the line." So, Gunny, get on with it. Rely, as we always have, on those both above an below you to learn your job better. But don't tell me as a GySgt that you are incapable of being a Plt Sgt -- it's a SSgt billet. After note: I guess I got to his Marine "core" because he ended up as the best Plt Sgt I had in that year out of three.

Response by Sgt Matt Chapman made Apr 10 at 2017 7:09 AM

2017-04-10T07:09:32-04:00

In the Marines I guess it's a little different. Every infantry patrol has a "patrol leader" (usually the squad leader, team leader or platoon commander). Anyone else regardless of rank that wants to join the patrol has to be approved by the patrol leader and once they step off they are then the responsibility of that patrol leader. The commandant of the Marine corps could jump in a patrol and if there is a corporal patrol leader...then he is going to have to listen to the commands of the corporal. From the time they step off, to the time they return. Of course customs and courtesies still apply and the corporal is usually willing to except advice but ultimately he is in charge and I have only seen maybe once where the higher rank (unsuccessfully) attempted to assume command. As a Sgt section leader I took a colonel and lt. Col out and told them both before we stepped off which firetram they were attached to. Both were men I respected and both acted as riflemen during those patrols. During security halts they would move if I asked them to adjust their positions etc.

Response by SFC IshSr Perez made Apr 10 at 2017 9:29 AM

2017-04-10T09:29:44-04:00

As a SFC NCOIC OF A RIFLE RANGE I HAD TO PUT MY BATTERY COMMANDER IN PLACE, he was not the OIC but tried to tell us how to run the range, when we already had good comments from our battalion commander and Command Sgt.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2017 10:07 AM

2017-04-10T10:07:35-04:00

PIC in the aircraft may be a W2 and the other pilot maybe a CPT. PIC is in command

Response by SFC Charles Kauffman made Apr 10 at 2017 10:09 AM

2017-04-10T10:09:28-04:00

I was a SSG in a 1SG billet over several E7's. A few balked at first, but my ability, and the realization that the Commander was not going to back down from, solved the problem.

Response by SFC Dennis A. made Apr 10 at 2017 12:33 PM

2017-04-10T12:33:40-04:00

Duty position over rank happens all the time. It can be tricky sometimes but with a little tact and respect in both directions it can work.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Apr 10 at 2017 1:39 PM

2017-04-10T13:39:26-04:00

I'm amazed that this one got so much attention. Guess having a peeing contest is good for most, but if the facts were known, pissing off a senior officer or SNCO doesn't turn out well for the SM.

Response by LTC John Griscom made Sep 24 at 2017 10:20 AM

2017-09-24T10:20:00-04:00

The role of the detachment commander in this case is purely administrative. The detachment commander has no command authority over those of superior rank.