Is there any type of disciplinary action towards SMs who lose packets and or paperwork while in admin?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 18:43:41 -0400

I’m asking because I don’t know, my own CoC doesn’t know, so I bring forth this question to the RallyPoint community. Disclaimer: if you are just going to be salty, or disrespectful because of said question being asked, then please feel free to NOT respond and take the negativity elsewhere. 2nd disclaimer: the topic I’m curious about is pertaining to today’s modern army. Something that was done in the 80s or 90s or even before that obviously doesn’t really apply to this situation. So no “back in my day” remarks.
On the question, why is it people in the orderly room or s1 lose so much paperwork or packets, and nothing seems to happen to them? No counseling, no article 15 , not even a slap on the wrist. Why is that? Is there no standard? Are they excused because they work in hq? Admin...I’ve got to know. If you lose paperwork that has someone social, dod id number etc... that’s not ok...that’s sensitive information.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2020 6:49 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 18:49:02 -0400

Absolutely not, years ago my S1 lost a promotion packet for one of my Soldiers thankfully I made S1 sign a 200. That didn’t matter the CSM counseled for the lost packet.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2020 6:51 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 18:51:07 -0400

Any type of action taken would be at the discretion of the commander, so youll need evidence. Use a DA 200 to prove that paperwork was turned in and who accepted it. Something to consider though, your S1 shop is 4-5 people handling paperwork for anywhere from 500-800 people. Stuff gets lost.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2020 6:51 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 18:51:53 -0400

As a 1SG, one of my first actions were to assess and select the personnel who served in my orderly room and training room. These individuals must be mature, to protect PII and control rumor spreading, and must be extremely organized and process oriented to prevent delays and losses of documents. To many times, the orderly room and training room becomes a dumping ground for Soldiers who can’t cut it in the line platoons; that should not be the case. I also, personally, counseled these individuals on their roles and expectations. And when they lose documents, we review the process and find the deficiencies, and yes, they get counseled with a plan of action to correct the behavior. In normal situations, admin actions such as Article 15s, bars to continued service, or relief for causes are not necessary for the deficiencies of orderly room and training room personnel — unless the actions are intentional (which unfortunately does happen for time to time if the wrong individuals are in there). Hope this helps.

If I didn’t hit the point, let me know.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2020 7:25 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 19:25:33 -0400

Best words of advice I’ve ever received: CYA (no not cover your ass) Call Your Attorney. That’s what your JAG is for. No shithouse lawyers needed.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Oct 8 at 2020 7:26 PM

1SG Dennis Hicks — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 19:26:46 -0400

When you ask a question you don't get to dictate the responses. Deep down you know the answer already.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Oct 8 at 2020 9:30 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 21:30:57 -0400

Taking action for poor technical performance always is deflected to the first line even if it is gross negligence or willful. I had a 62B destroy a part we fought to get for 6 months, because he didn’t want to work late. I wanted an Art 15. No. I counseled and tried to ding his NCOER. No.

S1s live and die by 200s. If they took it from your unit and signed for it, then it’s imperative the senior NCOs work this through. Otherwise you will get no traction. If this is tracked back to the same Joe and there is a trend, then you could expect remedial training from the PAC NCOIC that looks an awful lot like punishment. They will never admit to fault. Rule #1: blame the unit.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Oct 9 at 2020 12:28 AM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 00:28:33 -0400

I really can't comment on the discipline options for clerks losing/misplacing paperwork. I would imagine that should be something the local commander and/or CSM/1SG should be handling.

I will say this though from personal experience... it was AMAZING how paperwork suddenly stopped getting lost or misdirected when I started requiring them to sign hand receipts for all documents submitted.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2020 8:12 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 08:12:06 -0400

I've seen 42As get article 15s for losing paperwork with PII on it.

Response by 1SG David Niles made Oct 9 at 2020 10:57 AM

1SG David Niles — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 10:57:29 -0400

This salty old guy says I gotta respond, back in the day we would do counseling, extra training ext.. don’t know what they do now days, but we had a saying. Don’t mess with pac, finance or the cooks

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2020 11:12 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 11:12:56 -0400

There should be lots of repercussion. We destroy people for a ND because "what if". Well "what if" that was an incredibly important packet, target package, time sensitive intel report, etc....
We had a schools NCO (so not a trained 42A) where the joke was that her cargo pocket wasn't sewn on the bottom, so you'd give her the packet and it would immediately fall out and be lost forever.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Oct 9 at 2020 11:21 AM

SSG Brian G. — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 11:21:58 -0400

Ok, you are making the claim that a SM loses a packet or paperwork. Do you know that they did? Can you pinpoint it and say that aha THIS SM right here is the one that did it? No. The most you can do is have a line of accountability and say that you turned over said packet to SM X. From there it is in the system. You are also making assumptions.

Packet/paperwork gets turned in and accepted it then gets put into either a general pile to get sorted or walked and put into the box etc where it belongs. What kind of condition was it in when you handed it over? Was it pristine or did it have something sticky, some residue that might make it stick to other documents?

From here it has to be reviewed and the means section Sgt, likely 1SG maybe more before it reaches the Commander and then gets shuffled along further. Is it the receiving SM's fault if they did their job but someone else along the line did not?

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Oct 9 at 2020 1:20 PM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 13:20:14 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member I have seen thos problem from a number of angles. I spent a GOOD deal of time in an orderly / training room (WAY too much, honestly). There are a few issues here.

First, tracking. Ensure you ALWAYS use a DA 200 when trasmitting records of any sort. File the DA200s and keep them organized (either by date or by type). Keep a spreadsheet so you can quickly reference. It does not matter if you are at the PLT level turning paperwork in to CO level, at CO to BN or BN to higher. ALWAYS use a DA 200 AND log it in a spreadsheet. This is your proof that it was turned in and recieved by person X.

Second is internal processing. Some things take longer to process than others, and yes, some things end up on the bottom of the pile. In the O Room, if it needed Commander's (or 1SG's) approval / signature ( and MOST THINGS did), we would log it, then shuffle it over to 1SG (even CO stuff went to 1SG for review - unless it was directly from a PL, and even then sometimes). There is no DA 200 from O Room to 1SG to CO back to O Room. We try to log as best as possible, but if/when 1SG reviews and sends to CO and if/ when CO reviews and sends back are largely transparent to us. On at least two occasions, 1SG literally threw the action in his shred box because he thought that was more than it was worth, but he was going to at least protect PII. If your O Room is on top of the ball, and that is a BIG if, they will follow up with 1SG/CO forbstatus if they haven't seen something back in a timely manner. But that assumes O Room has TIME to review trackers for "overdue" paperwork. Few people realize how overworked the typical O Room is. Anyway, that internal processing is largely untracked. It then goes on a DA200 up to BN, where, I assume, BN level processing is, again, largely untracked. Even the inclysion of packet cover letters (where relevant people on staff have to initial / sign that they have reviewed packet) only track if it has been someplace, not where it actually is - and only help if you have the actual packet with the cover letter. In all honesty, I believe this internal processing stepnis where a large majority of loss occurs. It is exceptionally hard to pin on a single Soldier, too. Yes, you can prove that SPC Schmuckatelli in S1 signed for your leave form. You cannot prove that SPC S did NOT forward to BN CDR for signature.

3) Discipline. We can only control what we can control. As an O Room NCOIC, I put in place procedures to track every single action passing through our office. I got most of my 1SGs to buy in on shared trackers that XO, CO, 1SG, and O Room would update as things got passed around for internal processing. But not all. When my Soldiers failed to procure a DA 200, or failed to log movement of actions, or straight up lost packets (only ever happened twice in two different situations, with two different units), they WERE counseled. On one occasion, a habitual offender was fired from the O Room for failing to track packets, and received an NCOER to reflect as such.
I cannot fix BN. But I was consistently in 1SG's ear about S1 issues, and, when appropriate, he was in CSM's. Likewise, 1SG came down on me when my shop was f*ing up. There likely IS discipline happening behind the scenes - provided that there is evidence of screwing up. But as mentioned in point 2, it is VERY difficult to prove that SPC S lost a packet. It is one thing if everyone knows SPC S loses stuff. It is another thing to PROVE SPC S loses stuff. Which is why you rarely see the legal proceedings, and it is usually confined to counseling - which outsiders will never know about.

I hope this helps. If you need clarification on any of this, let me know.

I know the situation is frustrating. It has been frustrating since George Washington was LT Washington. It will likely still be frustrating when SMA Cody Thompson has been retired for 30 years.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Oct 9 at 2020 9:03 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 21:03:44 -0400

1. They work for either 1sg or S1, which really limits what you can try. 2. How do you prove it, short of a signed document receipt. 3. Every time it has to go up or down the CoC the chance of getting lost doubles. Hell they can lose it even when you hand carry it. 4. Damn hard to prove Who along the chain lost it. You are fight a windmill, unless you have something like a document log/reciept to support you and to show their NCOIC's

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2020 11:12 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 23:12:49 -0400

I have heard of this happening all to often. I think something happens to them about as often as medical officers have to answer for malpractice.

Response by SGT Paul Melendez made Oct 10 at 2020 3:10 PM

SGT Paul Melendez — Sat, 10 Oct 2020 15:10:21 -0400

I have to say it depends on the type of information that was lost, e.g. PII, Classified and so. Also to consider are if the SM was train and brief on how to handle paperwork, and how did the paperwork got lost, e.g. misplaced, destroyed, given to a wrong person and so on.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2020 10:31 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Oct 2020 10:31:08 -0400

When you turn in documents to S1 if you use a DA200 it shows who you turnes said document into and then if they lose that document there is proof of who lost that document. With 2 of those you can counsel soldier about losing documents and after that any other instances can be counseled for UCMJ. That should get you at least headed in the right direction.

Response by SGT Randall Smith made Dec 7 at 2020 7:16 PM

SGT Randall Smith — Mon, 07 Dec 2020 19:16:21 -0500

When I first got to Germany in 1966 I was assigned as the company clerk. We had to track everything we did. The First Sgt. was a stickler for follow up and doing what had to be done right. I then went to Bn. as the Training NCO and we had troops at 9 outpost to keep up with. The NCO that I replaced had flunked a I.G. inspection. He just stuck stuff in a file cabinet and had no idea where any thing was. It took me two months to get everything straighten out.

Response by 1SG Rick Seekman made Dec 18 at 2020 10:52 PM

1SG Rick Seekman — Fri, 18 Dec 2020 22:52:15 -0500

All about unit leadership!