Is there truth to the cliche that E-4 is the best rank in the Army?

SPC(P) Timeo Williams — Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:08:33 -0400

A friend of mine stated that there is indeed such a thing as the "sham shield." What are your experiences with this?

What can we do to change this narrative?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2020 11:11 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:11:12 -0400

I assume this means you haven’t been accepted into the mafia?
All jokes aside,
As a SPC I have done my fair share of dodging duties, details, everything short of showing up t work. Cause there are always private’s around who can go to those tasks. Since they build character.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2020 11:11 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:11:54 -0400

It won't change. Ever. It's been around forever and will not go away. If anything, I'd say a push to change it will only make it more resistance to being changed.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2020 11:31 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:31:06 -0400

I would prefer to be a 4-Star General myself, Pay-Benefits-RHIP are much Better

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Jul 2 at 2020 11:36 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:36:24 -0400

SPC(P) Timeo Williams Those exceptional E-4s that proudly and effectively wear a ‘Sham Shield’ and perpetually demonstrate their skills at avoiding productive work and responsibility have their own Union.

It is called the ‘E-4 Mafia’. That particular branch of the Mafia encompasses all military services and a (sh), a majority of the Civil Service workforce!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2020 11:47 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:47:40 -0400

The “sham shield” is just e-4’s that have enough experience to avoid stupid stuff. Nothing is wrong with it unless it’s taken to far.

Response by TSgt Carl Johnson made Jul 2 at 2020 11:50 PM

TSgt Carl Johnson — Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:50:34 -0400

The best rank is the one with the word "Retired" after it. You have to make it past E-4 to get that one, though. Life gets a little better every time you get promoted, but I found life easier at E-4, than E-5 and E-6, but more rewarding with each promotion. I think that is because you truly learn that the more you put into something, the more you get out of it.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2020 12:13 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:13:05 -0400

There is a lot of truth to the idea that the E4 Mafia is a functioning group. A good 1SG learns to find and exploit the E4 Mafia Dons. If you want a good inside, no shit barometer on how the unit is working, talk to the E4 Mafia leaders.

Response by SSG George Holtje made Jul 3 at 2020 12:43 AM

SSG George Holtje — Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:43:51 -0400

its what you make it at any rank

Response by SGT Justin Brothen made Jul 3 at 2020 12:46 AM

SGT Justin Brothen — Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:46:34 -0400

Most definitely, but the key to it is get your shit squared away, always be right, and know your shit.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2020 1:19 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jul 2020 01:19:54 -0400

I found that E5 was my favorite experience. Still low enough to do your MOS and be connected with your Soldiers on a personal level. Still high enough to be connected with the command and be able to influence both sides of the coin. On the other hand you get responsibility, and have to invest your time to insure your Soldiers are square and that your additional duties are taken care of. In my experience it was great because i wasnt expected to know everything, just enough to be dangerous. Now as a SSG, i find myself doing more administerative functions or management rather than actual MOS work. Theres also an extra layer of disconnect between me and my Soldiers as they have squad leaders to go through. While i pride myself in knowing my Janes and Joes, its not the same.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 3 at 2020 6:46 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Fri, 03 Jul 2020 06:46:39 -0400

I saw this in my career, never in my purview. We would discuss this amongst many things routinely amongst NCO’s. The E4 who decided to hide in the crowd got pulled out and put in charge of details. To keep it short, they chose being an NCO, or they chose to go home (when their time came).

Response by SSG Dennis R. made Jul 3 at 2020 6:48 AM

SSG Dennis R. — Fri, 03 Jul 2020 06:48:28 -0400

I always thought the best job in the Army was the one that let an NCO do nothing more than walking around with a clipboard and a cup of coffee. I saw a lot of them in 20 years, and always wondered just what the hell they were doing.
An accurate sign-out board would, under "destination" read - OFO and under "reason" would read - SGT's Business.
*OFO = Out F-ing Off

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2020 6:58 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jul 2020 06:58:22 -0400

It's crazy when u see and E-5 asked to help out a bit for an org day and he takes 30 mins looking for his soldiers to go do the task. (Task was out some sodas inside the cooler)... platoon sgt chewed his arse out in front of us including the junior enlisted. I think the E-4 mafia thing is a myth because all the spc. In my company work very hard every day.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2020 8:11 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jul 2020 08:11:15 -0400

That has never been said

Response by SPC Stewart Smith made Jul 3 at 2020 4:28 PM

SPC Stewart Smith — Fri, 03 Jul 2020 16:28:48 -0400

Ahhh the good ol sham shield. In my first unit it did not exist. Everyone worked together. Every single person in the unit worked as one team.
In El Paso..... boy did I take advantage of not wanting to be around so I kept quiet with my head down and shammed out most opportunities I got.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2020 10:55 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jul 2020 22:55:07 -0400

Depends on the unit and branch from what I’ve seen.

I’ve never had a problem getting any of the E-4 mafia to help me out with things. Then again I’m an AMEDD CPT so I am sure they don’t hide from me haha

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2020 11:32 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 05 Jul 2020 11:32:57 -0400

I came in as a SPC - and never got to enjoy any "sham" shield. I was in my first unit 4 1/2 years. I was the only enlisted in the shop for the first half of that time. So guess who did everything? Even though S2/S3 was a "platoon' when we formed up, their NCOIC never would let those guys help me but oh when they needed help, come to the S2.

After the first deployment we did have a full shop and at the start of the second but five months in the AS2 went to a line company. They swapped out one engineer NCO for another. I did have a 35F soldier (somehow) but he was an arrogant prick. We had the chem NCO in our shop but she had to go home halfway through she got pregnant (her husband was in our unit too). We went through like 5 NCOICs.

I was basically the NCOIC ultimately from SPC - SSG when I left. I was actually the S2 for 2 months when my first OIC left and waiting on the new S2. I had to do my job and the OIC job as a SGT.

I have never been able to sham in my career so far. So kudos to those who get to do so as a SPC.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2020 10:50 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 05 Jul 2020 22:50:49 -0400

To much rank to do the shit details, and to little rank to be in charge.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2020 6:00 PM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 02 Aug 2020 18:00:52 -0400

Man the old school E4s, we are the King of Shamming, but that is because we knew our jobs like the back of our hands. I honestly believe that is when a Soilder should be a SME, that way we knew how things works, how to make things work (cause lord knows Military Equipment) and the ins and outs of out Team or Squad. We knew it so good we could knock out our work and then give the lower enlisted something to work on while we go hit up Starbucks.

Now E4s are some of the most odd people I have seen, not knowing their jobs, always slacking off or disappearing leaving lower enlisted in the Motorpool Playground looking dumbfounded and then wondering why they get in trouble so. E4 is where it's at because you have enough leadership experience to make even the shittiest NCO look like a GODsend but not enough leadership that you won't be looked for cause TOP knows you are on your Ps and Qs and probably on a high speed mission

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2020 7:58 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 02 Aug 2020 19:58:13 -0400

In my experience, Master Sergeant is the best job. You're not in a command billet, you are typically the senior NCO of a team or section. Most people show you respect and leave you alone. Kind of like a Warrant Officer without the pay.

Response by SSG Phillip Hoffeld made Aug 2 at 2020 11:30 PM

SSG Phillip Hoffeld — Sun, 02 Aug 2020 23:30:01 -0400

I believe "somewhat". It's been a LONG time since I was a Spec 4. At one time there was talk about getting rid of ALL the "Specialist" ranks because of "duties". Spec 5 USED to be the best rank - I thought. You got all the benefits of being an NCO without all the BS. I remember laughing at the NCOs as we were cut loose early on a Friday and the Hard-Stripers had to attend NCODP.

Response by SGT Herbert Bollum made Aug 3 at 2020 6:19 PM

SGT Herbert Bollum — Mon, 03 Aug 2020 18:19:11 -0400

you get some respect , but not really any responsibility, but you better get ready to move up or out

Response by Pvt Chris Anderson made Sep 12 at 2020 4:33 PM

Pvt Chris Anderson — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:33:50 -0400

Y'all broke the rule.. There is no such thing as the "E4 Mafia" and if there was, good luck finding them now.. lmao. They'll have made like smoke and disappeared from this post..

Response by PO2 Robert Cuminale made Sep 24 at 2020 8:39 PM

PO2 Robert Cuminale — Thu, 24 Sep 2020 20:39:01 -0400

I was Navy and never heard of this "E-4" Mafia.
Personally, I thought E-5 was the best place. It's right in the middle of the enlisted management structure.
At E-5 I was enough of a technician to work without direct supervision, I could be called upon to direct others but not high enough to take on a whole department. I was respected because I had worked hard to gain the knowledge that added value to my department.

Response by SFC Dean Allen made Oct 2 at 2020 7:23 AM

SFC Dean Allen — Fri, 02 Oct 2020 07:23:37 -0400

I am now going to reveal the enlisted man's top secret strategy for avoiding work, particularly shirt (sp?) details when otherwise off duty.

1. Never wear civies or a class A uniform.
2. Always carry a clipboard in your left hand.
3. Move with alacrity at almost a double time.
This leaves casual observers (senior NCO's) with the impression you have been tasked by someone else and you are "doing something." Now to your question. If you are a low life malingerer, E-4 is as good a place as any to hang out and avoid fully participating in company activities.

I have never regretted any promotion, although each has its own rites of passage. You do get a certain amount of ass chewing while you learn the ropes and everyone settles into accepting your new status. Earning the respect (therefore the cooperation) of men you worked beside is a challenge when you are first promoted to SGT.

Response by SPC Albert Schafer made Oct 21 at 2020 1:48 PM

SPC Albert Schafer — Wed, 21 Oct 2020 13:48:47 -0400

Where does this crap originate???? It seems I was in the service during the best of times...
Not a whole lot of drama....

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Oct 21 at 2020 2:01 PM

SPC Brian Stephens — Wed, 21 Oct 2020 14:01:57 -0400

If there was sham shield, I was not told about it. Perhaps as an E-4(P), maybe, but the sham shield to me was being a short-timer and moving to offices like Armorer and the NBC shop which gave you maximum time to clear with no real responsibilities.

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Oct 22 at 2020 1:34 AM

SSG Gregg Mourizen — Thu, 22 Oct 2020 01:34:46 -0400

There are some perks. High enough rank, to be in charge of work details, not high enough to be held accountable, for leadership tasks.
Unfortunately, SPC, can be a dead end rank for many soldiers.
Active duty, you have to make points to get past E-4 (in the Army). Depending on you MOS you might never make enough points to make E-5 sometimes even E-6. My MOS during active duty rarely had the cut off below 798 (out of 800). I personally saw three in my unit(1 Al Army Athlete of the Year, 1 made Great Plaines Soldier of the year, and another was lucky enough to make the cut off, when they dropped the cut off for a month). Most of our NCO's reclassed into their positions.

I have seen many career E-4s, over the years. Some actually retired, mostly in the National Guard and Reserves, or hit their retention point. Many quit, before they even get to 10 years.
I wont get into the 'good-ol-boy' system of promotion. I'm sure it still exists. Leadership always has their favorites, and targets.
Basically E-4 Mafia is full of those who know what to do, to get by (for a reason), waiting their time in grade, and those who just can't get past the leadership barrier.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Oct 27 at 2020 12:25 AM

SSG Shawn Mcfadden — Tue, 27 Oct 2020 00:25:04 -0400

Depends on what situation you're talking about. Sham Shield? WHAT THE HELL IS THAT? I will say that in first unit when I was a private/PFC, those who were Specalists were not shammers. We all worked hard(was in a Cobra Battalion in Germany). My second unit(also a Cobra Battalion in Germany) , had every member in the platoon who was NOT an NCO, as a Specalist(promotable). We did have two other E-4's who were Corporals.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2020 11:11 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Nov 2020 23:11:41 -0500

I think it genuinely depends on your unit. The environment of different units work differently, so in some cases you can have an E-4 who ends up being treated no different than a private (very large, NCO-dense units usually), in some units, you have E-4s who do the work of SGTs and SSGs (usually smaller, less NCO dense units). How an E-4 acts is dependent on them, but the limits and acceptance of their actions and decisions depend on the people within the unit and the unit themselves. You've got E-4s who act like privates and get treated like privates, you've got E-4s who act like NCOs and are entrusted with similar authority by proxy (senior specialists) and you've got the shammers. What kind of SPC you are depends on your unit, your leadership, your junior enlisted, and your own work ethic. I wouldn't say it's necessarily the best rank, but it definetely sees the most variation of day-to-day roles in my opinion.