Is today's Army an officer's Army?

2015-05-09T05:18:27-04:00

I heard some comments about today's Army being an officer's Army - that NCOs don't have the power they used to have. How do you feel about this?

Response by SFC A.M. Drake made May 9 at 2015 5:43 AM

2015-05-09T05:43:48-04:00

This is a true statement...it falls back on the 600-20

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 5:52 AM

2015-05-09T05:52:58-04:00

When I came in the NCO ran almost everything.... I hardly ever spoke to my LT.... the NCO is the backbone of the army and that's what it needs to be....soldiers don't fear or respect a NCO or paperwork.... this needs to change...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 5:55 AM

2015-05-09T05:55:28-04:00

I hate to break it to them but Officers have always had the power in the Army. I know it may be hard to believe but the Army has always been lead by officers. Now the NCOs have risen and have a greater influence today than they ever have. I hope they realize that there wasn't even a E8 or E9 pay grade until 1958. Until then it was more a position than a rank. Since then NCOs have gained so many more responsibilities and duties. But NCOs don't command any large bodies of soldiers. It is like saying that the Executives of a company run the company. Yeah, they do but they couldn't do it without the managers and workers. And we would be complete failure if it wasn't for NCOs.

I am so tired of this Officers have all the power. Yeah we do but we trust our NCOs to advise us. Every command in the Army is held by an Officer, minus some commandant positions and few rare situations. But we don't have an easy life as others make it out to be. Sure we don't fill sand bags or pull fire guard but that is not what I am here for. There is not a factor of equality in this. A command is very demanding. But so few really see what really goes on. A lot of the times is the lower enlisted that don't see this. If you were to ask a 1SG or a CSM about officers do they will tell you.

NCOs are the backbone of the Army but the backbone is there to support the head. I think a lot of them forget that.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 9 at 2015 5:54 AM

2015-05-09T05:54:44-04:00

In what context was "NCOs don't have the power they used to have" used - decision making, troop leadership? I would hate to think that was the case.

Response by MSG Greg Kelly made May 9 at 2015 6:23 AM

2015-05-09T06:23:55-04:00

It seemed to be becoming true when I retired. I believe part of the issue is because so many positions in the military in general are being created for officers. The Army is being shrunk but it seems the supposed need for Officers has not. To make a joke about it "the Generals aids, aids, aids aid needs the S1 to look into..." I do not think NCOs have no power or less power I think that comes down to the individual. As an E5 and above I hung out with my LT because he was normally cherry and in the Infantry leaders are close other than that I stayed away from Officers unless I had no choice. So when dealing with officers I feel I had more of a strong point to start from. And you have to know how and how much to stand up to each O rank you have to learn to look for what I joking called the O face. More importantly you have to know your shit and the officers need to know you do without being overly arrogant. Lastly I have seen to many NCOs sucking up to officers for their own personal gain and they should know better and that weakens the NCO corps. Many Officers love this shit they have a DO Boy or Girl who is a Douche bag doing all the shit they do not want to. Sort of like how some NCOs treat some lower ranks. It's wrong no matter what. Just my thoughts.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 6:44 AM

2015-05-09T06:44:58-04:00

That depends on how one defines "power". Not being able to drop someone for push-ups and sometimes being asked by junior enlisted to provide a "why" behind simple directives may be a couple of the legitimate cultural complaints leading to that impression. However, NCOs today are (on average) more thoroughly trained and formally educated than ever, and therefore often entrusted with areas of responsibility that may have previously been available only to commissioned officers. Regulatory guidance has not changed much, so many of the observations must be cultural. This can be changed/improved if it is seen as a problem at basic/AIT and NCO academies, and even more rapidly at the unit level.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 7:05 AM

2015-05-09T07:05:57-04:00

I understand your frustration, or at least what I am interpreting as frustration based on further comments. A couple of points that I will add to the discussion for thought.
1. From your position it may seem like micro-management, when in all actuality these Officers are continuing to get refined guidance from their higher and as decisions get made or closer to being made they refine the decision the NCO is giving.
2. Mission Command does not mean being able to just go with whatever decision the leader at the lowest level makes and go with it. I know you did not bring up Mission Command, but it seems like many of the conversations have been hinting around it.
3. There are no more positions being created for Officers than their used to be, in all actuality there are new positions being created for "aides" to nominative CSMs.
4. Officers have always and will always have the power in the Army, we are the ones that sign the orders. The true power behind these Officers though is the development of the trust with the subordinate leaders that work for that Officer, this is the ultimate lynchpin in Mission Command.

Response by SGT Rick Ash made May 9 at 2015 7:41 AM

2015-05-09T07:41:39-04:00

If the statement is true all I can respond with is: "The Officers will be up the proverbial creek with no paddles when something actually HAS to happen". I have a lot of respect for all officers, even the "butterbars or "90 Day Wonders" but they should listen and watch a LOT for their first 5 years. With an excess of officers, only a certain few will be in command positions....

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 9 at 2015 7:45 AM

2015-05-09T07:45:40-04:00

Seeing as how all our power/authority derives from and is granted to us by Commissioned Officers, this whole debate seems like a non starter..

Response by 1SG Eric Rice made May 9 at 2015 8:09 AM

2015-05-09T08:09:18-04:00

My thoughts:

This same question has been floating around for many years and will continue to do so in the future. That being said it has nothing to do with power. It has everything to do with influence. Officers may give the direct order to execute a task/mission but it is not without risk. Risk management/responsibility falls on the officer and not the NCO as they are the ones assuming the risk. That risk could be anything from the possibility of the loss of life to not having enough water for troops while on a field training exercise.

NCOs on the other hand usually or should have the experience to influence the decision of the Officer. Hence why a CSM is the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the BN/BDE/DIV commander just as the 1SG is to the company commander. An NCO's authority is derived from AR 600-20 and NCOs should know what it states. The reason it may seem like NCOs may not have the so called "power" you mention is simply because they are most likely not well versed in where their authority is derived from and are overly cautious for fear of repercussion from misuse of that authority.

Response by SFC Stephen King made May 9 at 2015 8:10 AM

2015-05-09T08:10:44-04:00

The bottom line is you as NCO are the backbone of the Army. All services NCO'S we are the standard bearers.

Power is perception meaning you need to figure out how to lead and know when to follow. Once on has determined that tact is essential in learning to be an effective NCO then you will understand power more efficiently.

We train Soldier's and they see us and immediately assume we are going to be a hardass and all things go our way, power.

Yet, in my personal growth I have learned that I can make a difference by being me. As a Senior NCO I charge you to be the backbone.

The power is yours.

Response by SGT Joe Sabedra made May 9 at 2015 8:21 AM

2015-05-09T08:21:02-04:00

I say the NCOs have always run things.
Have you ever seen a CO have a discussion with one soldier or many without his TOP NCO on hand.
An officer new or seasoned will always rely on the experience of a much much more seasoned NCO.
Officers direct the battles and set the stage. NCOs make it happen.
Remember in most line units there are 5 officers to every 60 some odd soldiers.
1/4 of those are NCOs.

Orders flow from the top. Guidance flows from the middle and closer to the troops.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 8:24 AM

2015-05-09T08:24:42-04:00

Nothing has changed about who gets the mission accomplished. Officers publish the order and NCO's get the job done by leading subordinate soldiers through the specified task, end of story. Having worked at levels BDE and lower, working environments are different. Things don't go down at the company level like they do on a BDE staff level. But that fact does change anything in reference to what I said in the beginning.

Response by SFC Bryan Reed made May 9 at 2015 9:09 AM

2015-05-09T09:09:38-04:00

I have heard this statement many times throughout my career. Officers have always had the "power," but without NCO's that power is useless. If you heard this in response to officers assuming an NCO's responsibilities, then shame on your NCO's. Authority not exercised is authority given up. NCO's should not be afraid to tell officers to step back, they got matters in hand. Most officers are busy enough with their own duties and will only pick up an NCO's duties if they see them not being performed or being performed substandard.

Response by MAJ Ron Peery made May 9 at 2015 9:27 AM

2015-05-09T09:27:00-04:00

This discussion could get hairy, because everyone has a competing point of view. When I reported to my first unit as a newly minted 2LT, with a college degree, a little over a year reserve time, and four years in law enforcement, I thought I knew quite a bit. I was wrong. My PSG was a cranky old SF MSG who believed that an NCO's primary job was to train new LT's. I am glad he did. I learned a lot from that guy during my first year as a PL and HHB XO. My next PSG was not as flamboyant, but was certainly cut from the same roll of razor tape. . And I had fun doing it. I worked alongside my troops in the field, not always over them. Later in my career, as a Signal officer in a combat arms environment, I fought the philosophy that a Signal guy should be solely a staff wienie to the point that my Signal troops always had the additional assignment as battalion OPFOR. I loved tactical stuff, and so did my troops. You can only run so much wire before it becomes boring.

Yeah, an officer's job often calls for him to be involved in staff work, planning, and general paperwork drills. But he also has to participate in the training that makes his people a team. You can't lead soldiers from outside the loop. But you don't try to do the NCO's job, either. MSG Cranky told me that if I wanted to do his job, he'd let me. And after I was thoroughly overcome and everything was FUBAR, he'd step in and save my butt. We came to a satisfactory modus vivendi. I let him take care of the troops, and he let me play with them when my other duties allowed.

So what are the general duties of officers and NCO's? Obviously, both lead troops. The officer's job is generally to write the training schedule in garrison, coordinate resources, and make sure the training happens. The NCO's conduct the training, and the officers check to make sure it's done to standard, and after the training is complete, everyone does the AAR. Officers get to be glorified bean counters, sometimes. NCO's not so much. Officers must often get between their troops and other officers, and protect them from being screwed with, so they can get their work done. Sometimes that means you get on the bad side of your rater. So be it. This part of the job should be transparent to the NCO's and troops. Officers also need to look out for the welfare of their troops. That's a nebulous job description, but it means seeing to it, personally sometimes, that the troops have hot chow in the field (I climbed a mountain one night taking hot food to my guys. It was cold by the time I got up there, and they were roasting hot dogs over a roaring fire in a blockhouse. But they appreciated the effort.)
You dig fighting positions and latrines, fill sand bags, and do whatever else you can to make sure your folks are secure. Officers need to sweat with their troops. You'll sure as hell bleed with them when the time comes.

NCO's are directly responsible for the troops and how, when, where, and with what materials they do their jobs. For all intents and purposes, they are on auto pilot. An officer who tries to do an NCO's job will undercut the NCO's efforts and likely screw things up. Patton once said you must tell a man what you want him to do, and let him figure out how to do it. NCO's are great at figuring stuff out, if you let them.

I don't hang around the Army much anymore. I live too far from any posts to be able to rub shoulders with troops now. But I seriously doubt that the Army is going to break tradition and let officers take over the duties of NCO's. They'd be nuts to try.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 9:41 AM

2015-05-09T09:41:19-04:00

The power of the NCO is geven by the officer. In my unit the officer back us up 100%.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 9:47 AM

2015-05-09T09:47:13-04:00

There are many pieces to a puzzle, but all pieces are needed to make it complete. Officers and NCO'S working together can produce a outstanding organization. I agree with my fellow NCO'S that there are ever changing challenges, and the evolution of our Armed forces that challenge our influence as Non-Commissioned Officers. Nevertheless, we adapt, overcome, and as the backbone of the Army continue to accomplish our mission even if we be the lone survivor.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 9:59 AM

2015-05-09T09:59:34-04:00

It seems to be an ebb and flow. Officers are the planners, NCOs the doers. With a well over decades conflict there was a long time the NCOs were running the show. Now that We are slowing down, it has flowed back.....

That, and the Damn good idea fairy is lose.

But seriously, these new LTs are part of the entitlement generation who don't respect their elders and are creating a climate of micromanaging officers.
But

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made May 9 at 2015 10:06 AM

2015-05-09T10:06:17-04:00

The NCO WILL ALWAYS BE THE BACKBONE OF THE ARMY! !!!!!!!!!!
The Officers come up with the ideas and the NCO makes it work.
If anyone tells you different, smile and keep on going.

Response by SFC Justin Rooks made May 9 at 2015 10:14 AM

2015-05-09T10:14:17-04:00

It's not that they have more power. Officers have always had the same power, but a lot of it is due to the waning of the NCOs authority and influence that has fueled this perception in my opinion. Couple that with the educational advances within the Officer Education System and the changing landscape of the Army, Officers are becoming more in tune with these changes as opposed to the slower rate of advance in the NCOES. The Sergeants Major Academy has recently done a good job of addressing these discrepancies and are churning out some really sound and professional Senior NCOs now so hopefully that stigma will soon disappear.

Response by SGT James P. Davidson, MSM made May 9 at 2015 10:19 AM

2015-05-09T10:19:33-04:00

My experience was that O-grades have all the authority and power the CMS says they can have... ;)

Response by SFC Ron Chelsy made May 9 at 2015 10:31 AM

2015-05-09T10:31:13-04:00

In any command position you will have an Officer and an NCO, we all agree to that. The Officer is expected to run the show, anything goes wrong it's that Officers Butt on the line. Having said that, that officer greatly on their NCO's to make important decisions because the Officer is not always there with the troops. At platoon level that LT also relies on that NCO to train and Guid them. In my 21 years experience most of my officers relied on me to help run the show, keeping in mind he always had the final say. Keeping that in mind I did have a rare few 2LTs who thought they could run the show and demanded to take his education over my experience and refused to listen to my input and he completely ruined his career between the train up at home station to our rotation at JRTC. My point is yes the Officer runs the show but still needs their NCOs for their experience to help them to make those sound judgements

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 11:05 AM

2015-05-09T11:05:29-04:00

I like being we're the rubber meets the road

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 11:47 AM

2015-05-09T11:47:57-04:00

I have noticed that Officers are / seem to be much more involved with things than when I was in the first time.

in the 90's I rarely saw my Officers during the duty day. Orders would be filtered down and the NCO's executed them.

I believe that the Officer side of the house has lost faith in NCO's and therefore in order to protect themselves they have gotten more involved with day to day activities.

Everyone is looking out for their own best interest, especially in this time of a massive draw down.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made May 9 at 2015 12:09 PM

2015-05-09T12:09:15-04:00

"I remember way back when" "We used to be able to" I heard that for 21 years and that argument will go on forever. Too Bad that Jewish Capt outlawed Flogging in the Old Navy *SARCASM MUCH* Too Bad we can't keel haul them anymore (Tie ropes to their hands and feet and drag them under the Keel of the ship). Yeah we have evolved, civilized, Thank God!

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 9 at 2015 12:35 PM

2015-05-09T12:35:43-04:00

Any officer would be a fool to micromanage because he/she can't do all the work. Who ever said that knows jack shit about the army.

Response by SPC Larry Boutwell made May 9 at 2015 12:53 PM

2015-05-09T12:53:26-04:00

As if!!!!!every one knows that the all powerfull E4 mafia runs the army lol jk already pushing Top

Response by SSG Jim Foreman made May 9 at 2015 12:58 PM

2015-05-09T12:58:56-04:00

I think the NCO still has authority but the power he has is overshadowed by political correctness. Too many civilians (politicans) have undo influence over officers who use their authority for political not military reasons.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 9 at 2015 2:00 PM

2015-05-09T14:00:35-04:00

Power is easily corrupted - So you're going to write that O-6 a 1408 (armed force traffic ticket no fine) for parking in a handicap space, Private Snuffy/".

Six hours later -

LTC DoRight: "so you wrote up an O-6" "Well from here on out, you are patrol the ammo supply point after you void the citation."

Some officers are above the law until the actually murder someone and you can't cover that up.

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made May 9 at 2015 2:29 PM

2015-05-09T14:29:19-04:00

I think that's true, a lot of the NCOs prestige and power has been taken away by left wing liberal loon officers....problem is, we the NCO corps allowed it to happen

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 2:47 PM

2015-05-09T14:47:15-04:00

Response by SFC Charles S. made May 9 at 2015 4:34 PM

2015-05-09T16:34:37-04:00

As always Officer out rank NCO's.... they always have and always will. Do they have more power? That is an interesting question, it begs the question "WHAT power is it that you are alluding to?

Power to make the decisions, I would say yes they most certainly have always had that power.

To Run the daily aspects of the Army...NO. NCO's have always run the day to day operations of the Army, and always will. There are not enough officers to do that job.

Power is an ambiguous word. It makes assumptions that are not defined and have connotations to each person who reads that question. If you are just striving to stoke up an argument between officers and enlisted you probably achieved your goal. NOBODY has Total power, except the Commander in Chief. Everyone wants to be the man in charge, until it comes to taking the fall.

THE Officers Need the NCO's and the NCO's Need the Officers. It's a mutually beneficial relationship.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 5:08 PM

2015-05-09T17:08:07-04:00

It is supposed to be an Officers Army. If it wasn't, it would imply that they are weak and incompetent. Officers are responsible for their unit as the commander. If it fails, so do they!

My last Regimental Commander had a great method of leadership. It was simply for him and his Officers to provide the "what", and for the NCOs to provide the "how".

Officers make policy and give commands/orders. NCOs ensure those commands/orders are executed. It's that simple.

If one would rather provide the"what" instead of the "how", do what is required to become an officer! If not, go execute!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 5:18 PM

2015-05-09T17:18:48-04:00

Well. .. the officers are the leaders, or supposed to be. I see no problem as long as the C.O can get along with the NCO.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 6:12 PM

2015-05-09T18:12:18-04:00

The SMA is not buying that. We are an integral part of the Army. We will close the gap. But we must all know our positions. Officers have their job, warrants have theirs, us ours. Don't focus on trying to do what officers are charged with doing. Focus on doing what you are charged with. Take care of the troops. In reality, they are our most valuable asset. Support the officers appointed over you. A great command relationship is more valuable than any weapon system. And finally, answer the privates most coveted question. The why! Tell them why. Don't use "because i said so". our SMA is engaged, active, and motivated. Believe in him. Support him. And he will pave the way for us for many years to come.

Response by LTC David Stender made May 9 at 2015 7:09 PM

2015-05-09T19:09:18-04:00

Gentlemen, NCOs are the backbone of the Army and always will be. It's not us against them but both following different roles to get the job done and take care of the troops.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 7:51 PM

2015-05-09T19:51:57-04:00

Being an officer or NCO isn't about power, it's about leadership. That's what today's officers and NCO's are not getting.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 9:01 PM

2015-05-09T21:01:05-04:00

I think this assertion is overall problematic.

In my opinion a lot of the micromanagement being discussed is being driven by our "zero defects" and risk averse culture we've developed. Commanders are more involved in minutiae, right or wrong, because it's their career that's on the line. A good example would be the engagement that SGT Dakota Meyer and CPT William Swenson received their MOHs from. Senior Officers denied fire support arguably because they were unwilling to accept the risk involved. If we can't trust a SGT or a CPT for that matter to call in fires, then there is something dramatically wrong with our force. While I find denying fires to the detriment of troops on the ground reprehensible, I understand why it happened. A change in our cultural and political climate is needed to fix this.

I think another contributor is how young our NCO corps has become. The influence NCOs wield is derived from their experience. When they don't have that experience, it follows that their influence would be reduced. In my first tank Platoon I had NCOs who hadn't been on a tank since BCT. Even my senior TC had never done Platoon or even section level maneuvers. Coming out of BOLC I literally had more experience on the tanks than they did. While I'm not diminishing their skills or their ability to contribute, much of our training was a joint learning endeavor. When I deployed with the same unit, 2 out of 3 of our PSGs had less than 10 years in. Today the 20 year veteran PSG is the exception rather than the rule.

As a final point, too often these discussions devolve into an us v. them argument. We have command teams for a reason. While one can function without the other, we get an overall better operation when Officers and NCOs work together. There's more than enough work and credit to go around. We would all do well to remember that we're working towards the same goal: supporting our junior enlisted troops on the objective. Everything we do from the Team Leader to General Officer revolves around that simple mission.

Response by SGT Terry Ryan made May 10 at 2015 12:29 AM

2015-05-10T00:29:48-04:00

Haven't known to many SGT'S to get lost with a map, compass, and plugger.

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 10 at 2015 1:01 AM

2015-05-10T01:01:43-04:00

I have to disagree.

The Army, as it is today, is the Army as it has always been. Officers Command (Plan, provide vision, and resource) and are ultimately Responsible for all that happens or fails to happen. NCOs, are the backbone of our Army, and make our Army vastly different (better) than most any other Army on the planet. NCOs are the ones who make everything happen day in and day out. Officers Command, NCOs make it happen.

Officers and NCOs have very distinct roles, which if you need to read it, is laid out quite well in AR 600-20.

Command Sergeant Majors, as an example Command Nothing. I heard that from a my Battalion CSM, when I was a Battalion XO. As he explained, their (his) power, all NCO power comes from the Officers, and what they enable. That can be different, based on the individual Commander.

For me, I enabled and empowered my NCOs to do whatever needed to be done. I always told our Soldiers (include my officers) if PSG, 1SG, CSM said it... you can assume I was saying it. NCOs in my branch are the X-factor. MP Branch is essentially a squad based branch.

NCOs have very distinct roles and responsibilities, as do we Os.

If I succeeded as an officer and as a Commander, it was all because of the NCOs who had my 6.

Response by SSG Mike Angelo made May 10 at 2015 1:10 AM

2015-05-10T01:10:21-04:00

First call...that morning formation sets the tone. Always has. We all got jobs to do, yet its that first formation that tells the CO what their unit strength and capacity is. NCOs give it to them ... Officers manage that information while the NCO leads by example and peforms the drill and ceremonies of that first call. The morning PT run...exclamation points towards NCO action and responsibilities to the commander objective/policy...NCOs know when and how to place profiles out, and the dear and antelop in the rear. Intentional leadership is the NCOs backbone methodology, action is front and center, and the relationships with services members are face to face.

When I first came in the military, NCOs conducted personal counseling. Over time, that task eventually went away.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 1:24 AM

2015-05-10T01:24:08-04:00

This may be true in some cases. But we have more power and influence than we know or use. There is more than one way to get stuff done and to lead.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 1:27 AM

2015-05-10T01:27:26-04:00

It is a Soldier's Army, and we as NCO's are wholly responsible for Soldiers. We have come up short in recent years as a corps fulfilling our responsibilities. Often overlooked is that we are also responsible for training and mentoring officers. If the confidence our Commanders and commissioned leadership have in our ranks and corps is receding, which I believe it is, it is due to a performance recession on our part and not a climate shift. Only way to solve it is to be part of the solution and change focus from personal gratification to leading by example, as a corps.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 2:50 AM

2015-05-10T02:50:50-04:00

It's always been that way. Unless we do away with the distinction between enlistments and commissions entirely I don't see that changing.

Response by SSG Stacy Carter made May 10 at 2015 3:57 AM

2015-05-10T03:57:40-04:00

To see who really has the power in the Army all you have to do is read the NCO Creed.

"No one is more professional than I. I am a Noncommissioned Officer a leader of Soldiers. As a Noncommissioned Officer, I realize that I am a member of a time honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of the Army". I am proud of the Corps of Noncommissioned Officers and will at all times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the Military Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find myself. I will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal safety.

Competence is my watchword. My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind -- accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my soldiers. I will strive to remain technically and tactically proficient. I am aware of my role as a Noncommissioned Officer. I will fulfill my responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership; I will provide that leadership. I know my soldiers and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will be fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.

Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties; they will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and confidence as well as that of my soldiers. I will be loyal to those with whom I serve; seniors, peers, and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by taking appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise my integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow my comrades to forget that we are professionals, Noncommissioned Officers, leaders!

If you strive to be the NCO in this document then there is no power struggle.

Response by SSG Mike L made May 10 at 2015 10:29 PM

2015-05-10T22:29:42-04:00

I was heavily involved with the running of our company. ...our CO. Relied heavily on the experience and knowledge of the NCO staff made it a point to let us know what was expected from command maybe he was the exception. ...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2015 12:22 AM

2015-05-11T00:22:15-04:00

I'm gonna come at this a little sideways. But it is only because I believe this to my heart. NCOs have more power within the Army and more power for the future of the Army than more care to realize.
It mostly starts when that NCO becomes a SSG. As a SSG you are in a unique position that enables you to still touch that PFC, and you expose that new-to-the-Army PL to the value of the NCO corp. What that LT learns from his interactions with that PSG and Squad leader will stay with him for the rest of his career. It will further be re-inforced by the way NCOs react with that young officer as he either moves into a Company XO Slot (1SG) or up to staff (S3 NCOs) as he waits for the CPT list.
In this way, NCOs have the power in the Army they need. A lot of the NCO corps has lost sight of this. And, yes there will always be that LT full of piss and vinegar not listening to anyone. But if you look at some of the great Officers out there, they will tell you about the great NCOs they had along the way.

Second thing is this Mission Command non-sense being Officer centric (I heard it in more than one place). I am by far not a Doctrine Nazi. But folks need to read what we have put in print and comprehend it. Mission command only Codifies the way the Army has been operating since about 2003. Everything that happened after March 19th was by what we now call Mission Command.
Inside Mission Command, the Role of the NCO has not changed. We are still primary trainers. We are still responsible for creating the "team" atmosphere and trust. We are still advisors to our Officer counterparts. We are still responsible for taking care of the Soldiers. And, we are sill responsible for the Esprite de Corp and Morale of the unit....

NCOs want power? take control of what is in your realm and let that expand your sphere of influence. Train your Soldiers as hard as you can. Take care of them and mentor them. Do the institutional Army functions that have been lost. Yeah Garrison Army sucks. Yeah The Army is going through some fits. And, yeah you are not always going to be heard. But the bottom line is you are an NCO, you are in the Army to defend democracy, not practice it.

Response by COL Jeff Williams made May 11 at 2015 12:43 AM

2015-05-11T00:43:58-04:00

I have empowered virtually every NCO that has worked with me or for me. If I didn't there was a good reason. What they did with that power was up to them, and the vast majority did well and I respected them, there were some who did not.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2015 7:19 AM

2015-05-11T07:19:02-04:00

I have said it before on RP and I will regurgitate it here. There are duties and responsibilities that NCOs are inherently responsible for that should be transparent to their officer counterpart and no it's not NCO business but some people call it that. Unfortunately for the NCO Corps, NCOs have forgotten what those duties and responsibilities are and how to do them.

Officers have been doing their thing for the last 13 years, leading/commanding Soldiers in combat. NCOs have been executing those orders given by their officers and leading their teams/squads. Problem is when you get home from combat it is a different OE, the officers are still in charge (always) but the mission has changed. There is training to plan and conduct, equipment draw/turn-in, and other unit operations that require the officers attention. NCOs should be involved in those but it's the officers main responsibilities.

Let's take for example property, platoon property specifically. Should the platoon leader be worried about property? Yes, he/she is signed for everything so they should be worried but, they shouldn't be. Have you ever seen a SFC PSGs NCOER under duties and responsibilities there is always a blurb "responsible vehicles, weapons and equipment valued in excess of ONE BILLION DOLLARS" (Dr. Evil voice). That's such a crock of shit, that PSG probably isn't sign for $1 worth of equipment but, he/she should be. Accountability is a NCO responsibility, it's a whole section on the back of our evaluations. The PL should sub hand receipt every single piece of equipment to the PSG, now that's responsibility. I had my PL do that when I was a PSG and he didn't have to worry about property at all. I sub receipted it down to the squad leaders and checked it periodically. My PL was free to plan training and I received justifiable bullets on my NCOER.

Let's take maintenance. Should the PL be worried about maintenance? Yes, again he is signed for the vehicles/weapons and will get his ass chewed if his OR falls below 90%. Should he be attending the maintenance meetings with the company and battalion XO? Hell no he shouldn't, the PSG should be doing that. The PSG should be tracking maintenance, managing the 2407s, communicating with the BMNCO and XOs. This allows the PL to plan training. (Armor and Mechanized Infantry NCOs are pretty good at this, Light Infantry and Stryker guys suck).

The bottom line is, I see PLs doing the things above and more instead of their PSGs. The PL is doing everything and everyone is wondering why the platoon is so ate up, which bleeds over into the company. Daily business should be conducted by NCOs who should in turn brief the PL on the status of the daily business to keep him in the loop in case the company or battalion commander ask a question.

If you want the "power" you think you should have as a NCO, you need to earn it by showing your officers you can handle it. If you don't your officer will do everything for you because you have made yourself irrelevant. This will make you believe that it is an officer run Army.

Soapbox complete!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2015 7:23 AM

2015-05-11T07:23:55-04:00

I think it's more about influence than power. Through personal experience, I can say that the hurry up and promote attitude that existed for so long has truly caught up with us. I had 4 NCOICs in a period of a year. Each one looked great on paper, each one failed or struggled to either lead, keep up with the workload, or both.
If I am lacking that quality partnership what am I going to do? Sit idly by and watch the world burn? No, I am going to be both entities. I will plan & execute, I will counsel my Soldiers, I will do both jobs.
It's not a matter of a power grab, it's a matter of the wellbeing of the Soldiers and the completion of the mission.
The army is working on thinning the herd, it sucks for those being cut, but everyone I know that were chosen by the OSB or the QSB/QMP all had either derogs, or issues of repeated incompetence.

Response by SFC Stephen King made May 11 at 2015 9:02 AM

2015-05-11T09:02:22-04:00

I disagree. As my career is coming to a close I want to know that the NCO's taking the lead will be the enforcer's of standards. If you see something or someone that needs correction it is your Duty to step up.

Provide purpose, motivation and direction.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made May 11 at 2015 9:47 AM

2015-05-11T09:47:04-04:00

I will say that it is a perception thing vs a reality thing. The military has always been in the "power position" by the very nature of our rank system. That said, today's combat is not like combat in previous eras. Command authority is more centralized now than ever before due to the leaps and bounds in technology that has brought the strategic commander back in the command center real world/real time data to make on the fly play changes at that level that have previously been done by the senior service member in the field.

Does that mean Officers have more power now than before? Absolutely not. What it does mean is that there is far better situational awareness at all levels and units that previously would be operating completely independent of each other are not working in concert with each other via a higher echelon commander calling the plays. I would rather have someone with the big sight picture calling the shots than someone at the tactical level just trying to do the best they can with their limited level of SA outside of the immediate area.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2015 10:05 AM

2015-05-11T10:05:15-04:00

Officers have the power they just use it under the guidiance of an NCO. As NCO's we support officers and there orders base off of our experiences as leader. Most officiers do not have as much time in as there battle buddy NCO so they work together to accomplish the mission. At the end of the day the Officer is responsible for everything that happens but I would say the both have power just different types of power.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made May 11 at 2015 10:14 AM

2015-05-11T10:14:50-04:00

For me, the power doesn't affect much, even if i were an nco or officer, being a nco and officer meaning you been in service for a long time, and you here to help the enlisted. You already have power, To help guide the team/new enlisted and to discipline them.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made May 11 at 2015 11:45 AM

2015-05-11T11:45:29-04:00

I believe the dynamic has changed perhaps more for the Army. Officers are always in charge. That's not changing any time soon. However when you take a look at the accessions today vs. 20-30 years ago, these officers are different. They, on average, are not as firmly grounded. They will do more out of fear. So if the NCO community is passive, power there is lost. Stepping up to demonstrate how well you got it knocks down the fear factor. There are far better qualified members here that can weigh in. I'd like to see what's been going on with the courage factor in the NCO community over the years.

In the Navy, the CPO community has a strong structural advantage and that is ships and subs. There is so much officers can't take care of or couldn't even if they wanted to. Duties and functions are more compartmentalized. That said, I believe there has been a weakening of the CPO community between my time from E-1 to O-6. Unfortunately a hunk of it has been self inflicted. There's a lower level of respect towards CPOs because more of them act like E-7s and not CHIEFS. I'd spend more time looking at a group of CPOs than JOs for my upcoming open billets. Breakage with JOs I can fix a lot easier than E-7/9s.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made May 11 at 2015 2:39 PM

2015-05-11T14:39:39-04:00

Felipe, you need to stay away and stop listening to fools, the NCOs are the back bone and driving force of the US MILITARY, that means the US ARMY too!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2015 2:52 PM

2015-05-11T14:52:00-04:00

BLUF, the U.S. Army is a Soldier's Army. It belongs to all of us. Now, commissioned officers have always had all the power. Having enlisted in 1999, I can tell you that the quality of our NCOs has been in constant decline. Most NCOs today don't bother to know the regs, march or correct Soldiers anymore. Is it possible that this has something to do with the way you feel? Maybe.

Response by CPT Carl Kisely made May 11 at 2015 5:58 PM

2015-05-11T17:58:01-04:00

Hmmm, I tread lightly on this matter. I think that the quality of NCOs during our decade at war has degraded. This is not to say we don't have many highly skilled combat veterans now, but many of the junior NCOs, now up for senior ranks, were promoted so quickly and without the normal time and competition as from before the war. Maybe the NCOs have, by the cards that were dealt them, given up some of their power without realizing it.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made May 11 at 2015 10:30 PM

2015-05-11T22:30:32-04:00

A former Commander (AF LtGen) of mine summed that up better than any description I've heard. He made the following observations during a Commander's Call circa 2004: "Pre-Desert Storm, there was approximately 1 general officer for every 40000 troops. Post-Desert Storm there was one general officer for every 25000 troops. Today, there is one general officer for every 16000-20000 troops. My question is, what the devil am I supposed to be in charge of??"

Now, that being said.... If NCO's have "lost power in today's military" who do they have to blame except for themselves? Officers have always been in charge, made policy, and set the ground rules. OUR job as NCO's is to carry out those policies, rules, and enforce the standard where appropriate.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 12 at 2015 4:03 PM

2015-05-12T16:03:31-04:00

No, the NCOs still have power to make decisions and lead their subordinates. The unit will be broken if they do not conduct themselves in that manner.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2015 7:40 PM

2015-05-12T19:40:11-04:00

I absolutely agree, but let me explain why.

When the wars kicked off there was a lack of NCO's so the army began pushing soldiers through the ranks as the war continued. Soldiers who did not have either the experience or the knowledge to be in those ranks. With this the faith in the NCO corps dwindled, and it has continued to do so. It is a sad thing to see. However, I do believe that we can get back to an army where the NCO is respected and trusted to know what to do and when to do it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 7:20 AM

2015-05-13T07:20:59-04:00

Is that BG Sinclair in the photo?! The Officers did take a hit from that one...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 12:28 PM

2015-05-13T12:28:27-04:00

Personally, my thoughts on this matter are that an officer commands, and NCO's lead.

With junior officers especially, their NCO's have much more experience and time in service then they do, unless of course the officer is former enlisted. A typical 2LT has a either a SFC or at least a SSG under him with far more experience. Good officers listen to the advice of their Senior NCO's. Meanwhile good NCO's, as leaders, accomplish the tasks that their Officer gives them. This frees up that officer to concentrate on other things.

Honestly as a member of the Old Guards S-1, I rarely saw our officer, unless I had to goto the Command and Staff Briefing or he came downstairs to the S-1 to ask a question, or whenever my PSGT decided he wanted to Article 15 9 of 17 of our soldiers for something stupid that could have been handled in the platoon, that's a road I don't even want to go down. He never did PT with us, never went to the range with us, never did any training with us, he was always out of sight I guess doing "Command Group" things....

Response by 1SG Mark Colomb made May 13 at 2015 12:29 PM

2015-05-13T12:29:06-04:00

SGT Colon, this is a very broad and unsupported statement. Would you care to provide some context for what you heard?

It is not "an officer's" Army any more than it is "an NCO's" Army, or a "Private's" Army. It is the Army of the United States of America. Every person, at every level has duties and responsibilities which either can not or should not be performed by the others.

To my knowledge the UCMJ has not changed in terms of the powers and responsibilities of the NCO. So I would hazard to say it is not "NCO's" generally who have lost power, rather, specific NCO's who either do not want to or do not know how to wield that power.

Response by SGT Robert Schaefer made May 13 at 2015 12:40 PM

2015-05-13T12:40:37-04:00

Yes sadly its true the last unit I was in all the NCO's were micromanaged. We could not punished soldiers that were out of line.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made May 13 at 2015 12:47 PM

2015-05-13T12:47:25-04:00

I always is and will be an officer's force. Enlisted serves as the backbone.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 12:48 PM

2015-05-13T12:48:36-04:00

I have definitely seen a change in the power of NCO'S. I feel like I am more micro managed in my duties instead of being able to lead and develop my troops. I was always taught that NCO'S were to advise their officers with the experience that NCO'S provide.

Response by SSG Brian Kresge made May 13 at 2015 12:58 PM

2015-05-13T12:58:30-04:00

I don't feel this.

We have exactly the authority we are supposed to have, as does our officer corps. But that's just from where I sit.

Sometimes I worry that the decreased age of the average Sergeant or Staff Sergeant works against the NCO corps. There's something to be said for a little more emotional maturity with a role that runs the gamut from babysitting to primary responsibility for training.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 1:11 PM

2015-05-13T13:11:25-04:00

Well of course it is!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 2:01 PM

2015-05-13T14:01:50-04:00

It definitely is but with the addition of ADPs/ADRPs, it'so giving NCOs more insight into the "officer world." I think it's very beneficial for us to get in the new regulations to understand more.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 2:07 PM

2015-05-13T14:07:57-04:00

It's become the bureaucrats' Army. No one has the power to make a decision any more without 100 signatures from every staff officer, commander, support guy, and white tennis shoe wearing civilian signing off on it. And it no longer matters if their expertise of authority has anything to do with the mission or not.

Response by SSG Demetrius Davis made May 13 at 2015 2:13 PM

2015-05-13T14:13:58-04:00

I don't think the original question was asking who has power and who does not. It is not debatable that final decisions are always up to the OIC of anything (except of course if the decision is illegal, immoral, or unsafe). Reading some of the comments (way too many to read all of them), a number of them would be great board answers. Many of them state how things should be as opposed to how things actually are. Being from a unit where the original question was a constant debate, I believe that some units are more officer oriented than others. What I mean by that, and what I think the original question was asking, is that the NCO's opinion didn't count for much. It had nothing to do with an NCO in the unit doing his/her job the right way or standing up for what's right or anything of that nature. In my particular unit, the NCO argued (the true definition of, not yelling and screaming) a point but was shot down by an officer. Problems and/or concerns were brought to commanding officer's attention by an NCO but the final decision was, more often than not, in favor of an officer. I think it is safe to say that in some units, officers control everything and in others duties and responsibilities of the NCO and Officer stay in their perspective lanes.

Response by SGT Douglas Luke made May 13 at 2015 2:19 PM

2015-05-13T14:19:44-04:00

Just to be clear the United States Army has been and always will be the SOLDIER's army. We are ALL soldiers, its about the soldier, and all the other things flow from that. i don't give a shit fuck what your rank is, your a soldier..... ACT LIKE ONE. As leaders we forget this simple fact, getting caught up in who has the power? Officers have legal authorities by virtue of their "commissioning" by an act of congress and enlisted leaders are NON-Commisioned and therefore have no legal authority.

All this aside, if as an officer you think you are leading soldiers day-to-day you are FOS! NOC's are the backbone of the army and lead with command authority by pure virtue of our expertise and leadership traits. A soldier follow an NCO because they want to, they follow an Officer because the have to. End Of Story Nard

Response by CPT Edward Buras made May 13 at 2015 2:46 PM

2015-05-13T14:46:55-04:00

Until a young officer, PLT LDR, has cut his milk teeth, his best mentor is his PLT SGT, working together the officer learns his job and the role of a leader, the PLT SGT will assist that young officer lead his Plt and keep him/her from making mistakes (if the young officer has been instructed in OCS, OBC, or the Academy on the early learning process of Plt management when you've never done it) Officer will always make up the plans, and their NCOs will always make those plans come out as they were intended. Just my humble opinion.

Response by SSG Darren Haynes made May 13 at 2015 2:55 PM

2015-05-13T14:55:57-04:00

Over the past twenty years I think what has happened is NCOs have allowed the Officer Corp to take the power we had. There are a couple of reasons I say this:
1. We did not police ourselves well enough and Officers had lost faith in our abilities as leaders.
2. We gave it back to them because we could not handle the responsibility.
I am sure people will be upset about this post but our actions as a Corp the past 25 years have not been stellar. I do know that there are great NCOs and they have the trust of their officers but the majority do not trust our judgement. As Leaders we must gain their trust and take back the "power" we once had by virtue of the trust we earned back.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 3:08 PM

2015-05-13T15:08:51-04:00

A major I used to work with (note I said "with" and not "for") once made the comment that "Captain's run the Army". My reply to her was "Yes, ma'am, that is true but NCO's make it run". She looked at me kind of funny as I let the words sink in and I repeated it.

"Officers may the formulate the plans and make the decisions. NCO's provide advice, knowledge, and experience. We (NCO's) should always express our opinions -whether they be positive or negative of a decision or plan in private BUT always in the end "salute and execute".

Successful Officer/NCO teams compliment one another. I have been fortunate to work WITH some exceptional Officers that listened to my opinions and advice and before we went out before the troops always ensured we were on the same page and presented a unified front.

If NCO's feel that they are losing ground to Officers or vice versa it is because either side seceded too much of their inherient authority or have not taken the time to develop the working relationship that is needed.

Yes, there is a definite line drawn between what is considered "Officer's business" and what is considered "NCO's businesss" and neither side should cross those lanes. This is where A NCO who is not doing his or her job is just as worthless as an Officer who does not do their job.

NCO's have a huge amount of authority and wield a good bit of influence over Soldiers - not only Enlisted but junior Officers as well. A well respected competent NCO can project authority and confidence as easily as an Officer with the same attributes. When people complain that they have "lost" or had "authority" taken from them they often need to look at themselves first.

Response by SGT Sheldon Bromen made May 13 at 2015 3:13 PM

2015-05-13T15:13:07-04:00

there's been no change in power/responsibility the problems i have seen are from extreme micromanagement and not properly delegating said power or authority. both commissioned and non-commissioned have a vital role to play and both burdens can be to much at times. officers that fail to trust there ncos and micromanage there soldiers are a detriment as well as ncos that need to feel its a pissing contest of power and o's/nco's alike that have a medal chasing hero complex need to be smashed! just my thoughts

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 3:22 PM

2015-05-13T15:22:31-04:00

I don’t think so. I joined as an officer candidate and can tell you the scrutiny they put me thru the 3 times I tried gave me respect for the bar. That being said I am more educated now than I was when I joined. I thought wow, cool I get to be this high ranking officer and I get to be the golden goose to all these soldiers. “Ain’t gonna happen!” Now as an NCO and a better soldier I realize that is the main go to for these troops, I get to be momma, daddy, teacher and student all in one roll. On my deployment the officers were so disconnected from the front line (other than the 1st LT that was prior enlisted and kept wanting to get his hand dirty and had to be reminded he is no longer a Joe). As an officer there is a spotlight gleaming on you and I’ve seen more than a few Cpt. Bumped back to SPC because they couldn’t cut the hash in a war zone or didn’t have the compassion for the enlisted soldiers that makes for a good leader. Now that I’m faster and I know more about the ends and outs of the military and have gone on a deployment sometimes I contemplate going back to OCS. Then I remember I am the lifeline for my troops, I’m there to notice when they are acting a little off, I’m there to talk them thru their family issues and motivate them on a daily basis. That’s my motivation. I have 2 kids that I gave birth to and an endless number that the Army sends to me. That is my pleasure in life. You can find a million things to moan and complain about but in the end it’s your job that is the most important one in the Army and in anything else you do. I’ve never had an issue with a soldier and I’ve never had a soldier not respect my authority because I smile, enjoy what I do and never ask anyone to do something I won’t do. The officers can have the air-conditioning and the paperwork, I as an NCO, am the golden goose to my soldiers.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 3:29 PM

2015-05-13T15:29:58-04:00

Depends on your Chain of Command if they follow through. I told a soldier he wasn't breaking the plain during a PT test. He looked at me and quit. Other soldiers said he did more than I was counting. He failed twice already. I've never failed a PT Test. I even make sure I'm in good shape for AT. I had to stand my ground. He took it again and finally passed. If you sign the contract then you are obligated to mind the rules. Otherwise go back home to your pity party. I'm obligated to make sure you are physically fit for your next task in the Army. Nobody is just give everything to you. You've heard the term "Or Die Trying" Al Qheda must have the same theory. You can't ask Al Queda to let you pass. Please!!.

Response by SGM M Crisp made May 13 at 2015 4:11 PM

2015-05-13T16:11:17-04:00

NCO business is no longer NCO business . The Army has become a micro- managed organization and Officers worry about their OERs and could give two shits about their NCOs. Don't believe me try bucking an officer who wants some dumb shit put into action and you will see how they will trump you. If you are a Senior NCO they will try and get rid of you. So to answer the question yes they do.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 4:56 PM

2015-05-13T16:56:42-04:00

A bit off-topic, but a little funny that the photo chosen for the discussion is one of (former BG, demoted to LTC) Sinclair, whose indiscretions and alleged forcible assault and crimes have done a substantial amount to discredit the appropriate and honorable behaviors an officer should embody.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 5:03 PM

2015-05-13T17:03:47-04:00

I honestly think that NCOs starting from the rank of E-8 should have higher authority than O-1s and tie with O-3s. It is hard to respect the paper pusher, who only joins you at beginnings of mission briefings and at many times only stays at staging point, without joining you on the lines.

Response by SSG Derek Varchulik made May 13 at 2015 5:13 PM

2015-05-13T17:13:00-04:00

NCOs have been castrated in many ways! Yet NCOs are the backbone of the Army, Officers cant do their jobs without us, especially butterbars... behind every good officer is a better NCO.. lol rant over

Response by SGT James Elphick made May 13 at 2015 6:19 PM

2015-05-13T18:19:53-04:00

I would say it is an officer's Army in the fact that we have more officers than are needed. There are nearly as many general officers today as there were during WWII, many of whom are simply in charge of shell commands or are at a level several echelons above the actual elements under them.

Response by LTC Dan McDonald made May 13 at 2015 6:25 PM

2015-05-13T18:25:15-04:00

In 1973 when I was a PVT there was talk of the NCO Corps losing authority to officers. When I got my commission in 1984 there was talk of the NCO Corps losing authority to officers. When I retired in 2012 there was talk of the NCO Corps losing authority to officers. Nothing new here folks. In my experience the vast majority of NCO's fully understand and embrace their role and duties. The vast majority of commissioned officers also understand and embrace their roles and duties. When I took command of my first field artillery battery I asked my First Sergeant if he would sign the property book and take responsibility for the battery. He looked at me like I was on something besides air and made it clear that as the Commander I had 100% responsibility for my battery. The good - the bad - and the ugly. In two years we never had a disagreement about authority or responsibility. We both knew our roles and made a great team.

Response by 1SG Kenneth Talkington Sr made May 13 at 2015 7:19 PM

2015-05-13T19:19:17-04:00

There are some worthwhile comments in responses to this question. In my experience when NCO's start asking these type questions there is a breakdown in trust between officers and NCO's.
This normally happens when an officer has had a bad experience with an NCO and because of this he feels he cannot trust any NCO. NCO's work for the officers. The Platoon Leader and his Platoon Sergeant and Squad Leaders should be joined at the hip. This applies to the Company Commander and First Sergeant and on up through the through the Chain of Command. The officers should command and expect the NCO's to carry out their orders. The NCO's have to held accountable for any failure to follow through as directed. Officers must also realize that mistakes will be made. These mistakes should be the bases for corrective training. NCO's have to given the latitude to learn from their mistakes. The Platoon Sergeant should be assisting the Platoon Leader prepare his training schedule and mission orders. The Platoon Leader then leads. The Platoon Sergeant assists him by pointing out both good and bad things he observes in the performance of both the Platoon Leader's and Squad Leader's performance. Then they should reinforce the things they did well and train harder on the things they did wrong. You have to train as if you're going to war tomorrow. Last but probably most important is that I have during my career seen Squad Leaders and Platoon Sergeants fail to give proper respect and courtesy to their Platoon Leader. For instance I have seen new Lieutenants come to formation looking like they got their uniforms out of a grab bag. Rather than helping the Lieutenant prepare his uniform as it should be worn they ignore his appearance and let him be embarrassed by being chewed out by the Company Commander. As a rule this young officers have a whole lot of book learning but very little practical experience. It behooves the Company Commander and First Sergeant to insure that the Platoon NCO's take care of their Platoon Leader. We have to get them started on the right foot.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 7:45 PM

2015-05-13T19:45:25-04:00

The relevance of NCOs is up to those very NCOs. If NCOs act professionally and stay current on doctrine and world events, as well as remain tactically and technically proficient, the Officer corps will take them seriously. If NCOs let their power slip away through shortcomings in any of the above areas, they will lose their relevance. Obviously, some command climates are more supportive of NCOs than others, but it's ultimately up to the NCOs to prove their worth and relevance and that starts with the senior grades.

Response by 1SG Joseph Franklin made May 13 at 2015 7:47 PM

2015-05-13T19:47:34-04:00

I would just love to see the day when an officer felt there was no need for NCOs. The NCOs do not have the power they once had and it shows.

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made May 13 at 2015 7:53 PM

2015-05-13T19:53:27-04:00

When generals get slaps on the wrist for things I would be put under the prison for.... not only is it an Officer's Army.. it is a corrupt, tyrannical, and amoral Army at that whose values aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

Response by SFC Christopher Perry made May 13 at 2015 8:05 PM

2015-05-13T20:05:46-04:00

Nope, if you are an NCO who feels you have lost any ground in today's Army, you need to look in the mirror not at the officers.

Response by SFC Jack Bennett made May 13 at 2015 8:07 PM

2015-05-13T20:07:40-04:00

My generation said the same thing. What we have to remember officers are in command. NCO are not, they carry out the wishes of thee Commander

Response by SGT James Hammons made May 13 at 2015 8:21 PM

2015-05-13T20:21:57-04:00

There is a different leadership role for Officers and NCOs. Respect is the key. A NCO is the first Line supervisor directly responsible for the soldiers assigned them. Office do have a slightly different more administrative role. There should be a balance in leadership and NCOs need to work well with officers. But I do believe that there is a need to accept that experience also counts and that Officers can show respect for the years of service of their senior NCOs. Great Leaders always lead from the front. If you are and Officer or a NCO the actions of your troops reflects you leadership ability.

Response by SGT William Wolfe made May 13 at 2015 8:23 PM

2015-05-13T20:23:34-04:00

Yes yes yes!!!! Nco is now the ass crack of the army. No longer are they the back bone. I miss hearing a SFC or SSG tell a Lt to
SitDown and shut up. Your
Job is beans and bullets mine is to purpose and direction. You do that today and your facing Article 15. Army soft should be the motto.

Response by SFC Tressa Lackey made May 13 at 2015 8:31 PM

2015-05-13T20:31:34-04:00

Definitely and the lack of respect for an NCO experience and ability to influence our soldiers is one of reasons I left. We have Bachelor's degrees, Masters, multiple Leadership advancement schools, more field experience and no power or voice. There are still ol' school O's that know the value of their (exceptional) NCOs. However, political BS of officers and higher ranking NCOs has trickled down and become the norm for promotion determinations.

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 13 at 2015 8:43 PM

2015-05-13T20:43:27-04:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member You may want another photo here. That Officer is the BG from Bragg who was court martialed, reduced and retired for sexually harassing women.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 8:46 PM

2015-05-13T20:46:15-04:00

Hey, SGT:

This question could be taken a few different ways; however, let me see if I can suggest something in the line of an answer. "Today's Army" is most likely the same as it has always been, albeit the additional scrutiny in the way of alleged transparency.

I began my career enlisted, then transferred to the dark side, after making E5. I would disagree in the way that I had more control (or power) as a team leader. I say this as my actions had a greater affects on my subordinates; both professionally and emotionally. As an officer, I am constantly reminded that the NCO lane is not the O-Country lane. I now make the plans, pitch the plans to higher and receive the inevitable guidance that "this is no longer in the budget."

My only power is now used to provide everything that I can to my soldiers to ensure they are mission ready. Rather as ready as my limited resources can make them. NCOs still hold the ultimate power to cause the very real political movements, within the ranks, that move troops slower or move troops faster. The power is still where it was likely to have always been.

Respectfully,

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 9:50 PM

2015-05-13T21:50:44-04:00

I don't think NCOs have lost "power." Over twelve years in service I have seen a dramatic shift in work ethic and some weakness in their ranks.

I'm sure this will infuriate some but I'm sure many can agree the NCO corps isn't what it used to be.

Response by LTC Peter Hartman made May 13 at 2015 10:02 PM

2015-05-13T22:02:27-04:00

I have served as both an NCO and officer on active and reserve status. NCOs have a lot of power where the rubber meets the road. Officers "manage" (I hate that word within the military) and are accountable for results. Good officers identify and trust their quality NCOs. It is all about teamwork.

Response by 1SG Cameron M. Wesson made May 13 at 2015 10:02 PM

2015-05-13T22:02:02-04:00

I'll probably be one of a few people that responds negative.

The Army... God Bless It... is much as it has always been.

It is a amalgamation... or a combination... of all the cohorts. It takes all the cohorts to be successful! Officers, Warrant Officers, NCOs, Enlisted, Civilians, and yes... even contractors. We do not function well without any of the cohorts.

Before anyone gets upset and on a high horse... check the truth of what I say. Read about the history and the formations of the Romans, the British Army, the Mongols, the Persians, the Colonial Army, the Blue and the Grey, etc... pick the Army. Then read a little more!

Do the officers get the attention (both good and bad)? Hell yes! That's what they get paid for! As the responsibilities increase... so does the rectal pain... and the glory. My opinion. It seems the rectal pain beats out the glory most times. Why? It is the nature of the beast.

I hope this is not an "Officer vs NCO" debate.... this debate is a fallacy. Again, it takes the Cohort!

It has always been "One Team, One Fight, Mission First, Soldiers Always!"

Let's keep this thought forefront in our mind and Charlie Mike (Continue the Mission)

my 2 cents

Response by SGT Anthony Wynn made May 13 at 2015 10:46 PM

2015-05-13T22:46:53-04:00

It's not about how "enlisted" or "officers" feel, or the amount of $$$ they make. It is about the mission, the Oath we took to the Constitution and our Country.

It parallels our Government, which isn't broken, yet full of people wanting more for themselves than their constituents ( what to I need to say to be re-elected. )

I had the privileged to meet the CSM of the Army, and he said that NCO's (e-5 to e- infinity) didst trust their fellow, albeit, lesser ranking NCO's, and was hindering our mission capability.

Guys, Brothers and Sisters, get your head out of your ass and do your job. Do more PT. Take all the schools you can. Then do more PT, because somewhere in America, there is a family depending on you to protect them.

HALF RIGHT, FACE!
Wynn

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 11:13 PM

2015-05-13T23:13:56-04:00

An NCO only has a % of the total reach of the officer that is appointed over them...so this question makes no sense. I would argue that we are not in an "officer's army" though...we are in a "politician's army".

Response by PFC Harold Best made May 13 at 2015 11:20 PM

2015-05-13T23:20:39-04:00

I have been out since before the purges of the senior NCO and line combat command Officers corps (thank God). But, if you will think about it , it fits in with the Soviet/Communist model preferred by the group currently in power. The Officer corps in the Soviet era was run entirely by Officers, Politically appointed for Political reliability, and virtually no NCO authority. This is because in a Totalitarian/Elitist/Elitist society the "Proles", "Serfs", "Peasants" or whatever you might choose to call them can't be trusted by the ruling class, as the designs and intents of the two classes are at odds. The destruction of the middle class in the United States has now put us in that position. This is all detailed in the Communist Manifesto. READ IT. What Officers remain in Combat commands were chosen for "Political Reliability".

Response by SSG Jocephus Duckworth made May 13 at 2015 11:21 PM

2015-05-13T23:21:27-04:00

Let me say this NCO is the back bone of the Army and always remember you can't spell Lost with out the LT.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 11:29 PM

2015-05-13T23:29:06-04:00

Today's Army remains the only one in the world that delegates and grants power to the Enlisted ranks. Others do it, but not near the level we do. We have given more and more power to NCOs over the years but over recent years all ranks have had some power taken always due to the times we live in mainly. I understand complaining about the executive in charge of the warehouse when you are working on the line, but if you want to be an executive then do so. Some people draw there desire and purpose in different ways. If I had stayed enlisted, I would have hopefully one day been a CSM, and I would have been just as proud to have held that rank and honored for the opportunity. I spent my 1st 7 1/2 years enlisted and in the beginning I complained like every else. Then I realized that I had a desire to become an officer, not because of the power, but because I wanted to continue to do my best and have an opportunity to influence, mentor and develop subordinates. I become an officer to ensure that I would have a great chance to ensure the climate was healthy, the mission was accomplished, the Soldiers were care for and no one's time was wasted for no reason if I had any say in the matter

Response by SPC Michael Locke made May 13 at 2015 11:39 PM

2015-05-13T23:39:15-04:00

I don't like it NCO r the ones with the troop s more they shouldn be in control and usually have more exp

Response by SSG Chris Deck made May 13 at 2015 11:54 PM

2015-05-13T23:54:11-04:00

Officers job is administration its the nco who plans and trains his soldiers battle drills and current ttps

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 11:59 PM

2015-05-13T23:59:19-04:00

I was lucky enough to participate in an NCOPD the other day where this discussion was had. I think the final concensus was that the NCOs used to have a much larger influence on the commissioned officers than they do today. I believe this is in most part due to the fact that the Army was spread thin due to the conflicts we were engaged in. Since then we have pulled many troops back from those theaters and the commissioned officers have seen the shortcomings of many NCOs and have assumed that all NCOs must have these same faults. What the NCOs need to do is prove their value to the officers to get back in the high esteem we once we're but until then we will be kept on a much shorter leash than we used to. NCOs constantly tell the officers to stay in their own lane but in reality as a team it is their lane as well. We just need to control that lane better to have the influence we would like.

Response by CW4 John Karl T. made May 14 at 2015 12:04 AM

2015-05-14T00:04:56-04:00

NCO's have never had power. They had responsibility. If officer's usurp the responsibility from the NCO the officer fails in at least two regards. The officer is assuming authority and team cohesion that is not conducive to building mission effectiveness. Secondly, the officer is not properly utilizing subordinates to assure goal accomplishment. If the NCO allows this to happen, he/she is not effectively utilizing the training and responsibility vested in them as individuals and leaders.
Officers who find themselves or colleagues in this position need to evaluate their relationship with subordinates and step back into their proper roles. NCOs in this position need to step up, educate their officers, and assume the responsibility that is their charge. Oh, if you are an NCO in this situation and need resolution assistance, seek out a gray haired CWO or Sargent Major. They have been there and can help.
The entire leadership team must plan and work together. They must utilize the training and expertise of each and every team member. Officers must get to know their NCOs and NCOs must get to know their officers. Learn how they think. Know the plan. This 'marriage' is more critical the your marriage to your spouse if you want to have the best chance of mission accomplishment and returning home.

Response by SFC Fred Youngs made May 14 at 2015 1:07 AM

2015-05-14T01:07:51-04:00

If this has happened it is the NCO Corps fault. How did this happen? The last 13 14 years we have been at War the Army promoted NCO's and Officers very quickly. The Army needs to get back to the Leadership Training as we go up the Ranks. That goes for Officers as well as the NCO. Also MOS Training.
Our job as an NCO is to advise the Leadership be it a Lt., Cpt., or Col. as long as your management doesn't cause the loss of life, limb, or damage to soldiers and government property! We the NCO must Train the Troops under us.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2015 1:13 AM

2015-05-14T01:13:00-04:00

Kind of an odd question, and I don't mean that disrespectfully. But NCOs and Officers have different missions. NCO is there to train the troops, take care of the troops, and execute the mission. The officer shares some of that responsibility, but their focus is, and should be, on the mission, and on administrative issues. I've known good officers and bad officers, but I've also known NCOs who were without question experts in their field, but on the other hand I've known some who didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. An officer can learn, and should learn from his NCOs, but an NCO who believes an officer couldn't possibly have anything to teach him isn't worth the thread it took to sew on his rank.

Response by SGT(P) Anthony Nestor made May 14 at 2015 1:58 AM

2015-05-14T01:58:07-04:00

I understand that i'am just a PFC; however, i think the issue is trust between officers and NCOs. It always has been and forever will be officers direct we (enlisted) enable and strive TOGETHER towards one common goal regardless of the mission. I have observed between officer and enlisted there can be distaste. Also, just to caveat poor leadership reflects the overall morale of the soldiers regardless of rank.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2015 2:02 AM

2015-05-14T02:02:02-04:00

As a new 1SG, I can say that my NCOs and I have a ton of power. I believe that it is a culture within a unit and some units are different. My NCOs have the power to train their soldiers on the skills required within the guidelines of our metl tasks. I involve my ncos in the process to develop our yearly training plans side by side with my officers. That being said, the final say still belongs to my commander, always has, always will.

Response by CW2 Eric Scott made May 14 at 2015 2:42 AM

2015-05-14T02:42:52-04:00

I feel this post is very much generated from someone who has had a bad experience with officers somewhere in their career (and who hasn't). Before becoming a Warrant Officer I was an E-6, and though I never held a command position I was privy to enough to both sides of the house to see how each operates. This is my opinion on the topic:

- The Officer / NCO core roles and responsibilities have not changed since the Army has been around. AR 600-20 and other publications outline this. Commissioned officers command, Non-commissioned officers execute orders and lead soldiers, and Warrant Officers are awesome at everything. Yes you do have Officers that cross the line and NCOs that do the same.

- The reason why this post is even a topic is because as a 2nd order effect from 2 wars many, many seasoned NCOs left the Army. As such The Army does what it does when it can' draft people and that is to lower standards. I think everyone who reads this will know what I mean. With that said you get NCOs that either don't know how to make time for sergeants time or don't know how to feel like they have power.

- The mission, whether that be taking the hill or doing motor pool 4 more times, is because it is command policy and it's up for debate. It isn't your lack of power. The how is. NCO are the craft of all ranks and instead of being in the motor pool doing nothing but bitch the whole time (in my example) about how the command is fucked up and how you're getting out, use that time to teach your Joes something that they can use. Even if it isn't combat related.

Maybe I'm old and old Warrants don't have power anymore. ;-)

-

Response by SSG Lloyd Becker BSBA-HCM, MBA made May 14 at 2015 3:46 AM

2015-05-14T03:46:14-04:00

Let me reflect back to 1978 and 1979. During that time, officers were in process of taking away the responsibilities of the NCO by circumventing the chain of command to the lower enlisted.

Privates and others were telling the NCOs that they did not have to listen to us. These officers were telling our subordinates to do something without informing the NCOs and we were catching flak because the work was not getting done.

If you understand the Greek meaning of Sergeant, it means servant. We are servants of the officers in order to get the mission accomplished. We are not their butler, or hand-maids, but Non-commissioned officers. Our duties are much more than just taking order from the officers. We train, we wipe their noses and do alot of baby sitting to ensure our enlisted personnel are ready for combat. This means ensuring section equipment is in a state of repair, our troops are healthy, they are fed, their clothes and rifle are clean and serviceable.

While the officers, by way of Congress has been bestowed the title of officer, starting at 2LT, we NCOs fall under the same Congressional cap. We are required to command troops when there are no officers present, or available.

I particularly know what the officers go through. I also know what I went through. Both sides were tough. I am glad the NCO is back in their responsibilities. When things need to get done; we make it happen!

Response by SFC Robert Becker made May 14 at 2015 4:06 AM

2015-05-14T04:06:49-04:00

Yes, The NCO core has died. Back when i when i was in officers know where there place was, and it wasn't in a NCO's business. They let you know what needed to happen and we made it happen. Now days they have to ask there officer approve what they do. I have seen this first hand working as a contractor over seas.

Response by SFC Carlton Crider made May 14 at 2015 7:03 AM

2015-05-14T07:03:14-04:00

Officers have always been in the way and thinking they can lead. They are lazy and sit on their asses running their mouths and getting promoted on the back of NCOs. I met few officers while active duty who was worth their weight in gold, most were sniveling little spoiled brats who mommy and daddy got them to college. Most only joined to pay back student loans, and you could tell that all they were waiting for was their 6 year contract to end. If the army is screwed up in any way it is the way they bring in the junior officer off the street to be in charge of the NCO with 10 plus years active. Today’s officers should be taken from the enlisted ranks after about 4 plus years so they can see what real work is.

Response by SFC Alfonso Moore made May 14 at 2015 7:10 AM

2015-05-14T07:10:27-04:00

I really think so 35 years ago when i was a young private E7,s were like god. i left in 2001 and since then it only got worse NCO;S cant even make a decison by them self . As a army cillivan i just shake my head when i see what goes on.

Response by SFC Pete Meyer made May 14 at 2015 8:42 AM

2015-05-14T08:42:05-04:00

That's because we have a whole new generation of YES boys..

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made May 14 at 2015 8:43 AM

2015-05-14T08:43:38-04:00

If some NCOs have lost their authority, not power, it is because they let themselves lose it.

Response by SFC Pete Meyer made May 14 at 2015 8:44 AM

2015-05-14T08:44:36-04:00

It's always been the NCOs job to make sure that officer gets the right information so we can make the right decision...

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2015 8:59 AM

2015-05-14T08:59:10-04:00

I completely disagree with this. If an NCO believes that this is an "Officers Army" then they're doing something wrong. Every soldier's first steps in the any branch of the service are first molded by 1st class NCO's, from basic training all the way to AIT, OCS, WLC, CCC, ect...

The most sage & sound advice I receive is from my PSG, TOP & my training NCO....while I might have the power on paper, its the NCO's that get the job done & accomplish the mission.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2015 9:49 AM

2015-05-14T09:49:58-04:00

This is hilarious. NCO's are more empowered today than they have been in history. If you've heard some comments about today's Army being an officer's Army, it's probably from relatively young NCO's who joined after 2003 and are comparing their levels of responsibility with what they have seen in combat. You can't compare a combat experience with a training experience. The two levels of responsibility and requirements will NEVER equal out and they never have. Look back at Vietnam and the requirements there for an NCO to the requirements after Vietnam in the training of the late 70's through the 90's which created the best Army in the world after a horrible performance overall in the 60's and 70's. The things NCO's do today in a peace-time Army are more inclusive and empowered than they EVER have been...without a doubt. It's a GD fact. Ask CSM's who were privates in 1990 and SGT's in 1995. They will be able to tell the difference. Don't ask a SSG who was a private in 2007 and a SGT in 2011.

Response by MSG Reid Zohfeld made May 14 at 2015 10:25 AM

2015-05-14T10:25:12-04:00

Officers are officers, a good NCO can make or break a officer. Rules and regulation are a NCOs best friend. During my time I have seen a less trained Officer's. Being a old dog MSG O1 to O4 would not usually tangle with me.
Please do not get me wrong I had some very fine Officer's as leaders from O2 on up.
A good Officer will take advise from the NCO,s.

Response by SSG Charles Oliver made May 14 at 2015 10:45 AM

2015-05-14T10:45:11-04:00

Over many diffrantunits lve seen when the NCOs snap to and show their sefves to get people to accomplish the orders as given to them be there before your troops and your officers know your mission and mos and know the regs. Take care of your people and see to it that your officer has little to do or nothing. You receive a mission from that officer the less he has to do the more time he has to plan the better it is for both. You squad leaders train your men so the plt Sgt can supply you train sgts and advise the plt leader and run interference. All this gives the top Sgt to ck NCO training and advise and protect his commander. No officer wants to do your job but if you don't he thinks he has to when that happens it messes up that is for his net unit and makes NCOs not relevant and is bad for everyone.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2015 10:59 AM

2015-05-14T10:59:23-04:00

I have the power to make things happen. I watched as I moved up in rank as other NCOs used their power to make things happen. I also see Officers make things happen. I have talked an Officer into my way of doing things and I have been talked into doing things their way and I have been ordered to basically shut up and do it this way by an Officer.

If as an NCO your are either scared to disagree with an Officer or you do not have the ability to change and Officers mind about a plan then you need to voluntarily demote. Part of being an NCO is working with Officers to put forth the best plan. That means you need the ability to think and project possible outcomes. My new Commander started having endless planning meetings that all NCOs must attend. He encourages us to give our opinion and many times we have discussions about the best way to accomplish the mission. Ultimately he chooses the way we do things but many times he takes our advice or our plan and uses it. I have never known it to work any other way then this, Officers and NCOs working together. (I have seen it tried other ways and it always failed.) These endless meetings are having a fantastic effect on the troops and the training. Things are going smoother and faster. But my point is I and my fellow NCOs have power and we have influence.

Response by SSG John Jensen made May 14 at 2015 1:34 PM

2015-05-14T13:34:40-04:00

part is the history of the whole thing - once upon a time the officers were the only ones that could officially read and write, that's why when I get my promotion orders I can't pin myself, technically the officer has to read it to me - increases in education have reduced that need - NCOs can do way more than they used to do - Yes, I know officers plan and NCOs accomplish, but my time in this was in the support side of things and there are so many things in the individual little support offices where NCOs can do the job without the officers, and so the officers double down on their power in those offices. There were a few years where my plt sgt was the acting bn med officer, during one of which is when i ran the plt as the senior SP4 for loading the equipment for the FTX, that the running of that led to my promotion board.

Response by LTC John Walker made May 14 at 2015 2:38 PM

2015-05-14T14:38:30-04:00

There I was...a shiny, brand new second lieutenant straight out of college ROTC and OBC reporting to my first unit, a basic training company! I knew next to nothing about the Army and how to be an officer despite the training I had received. Thank God for my Senior Drill Sergeant, SFC Rogue, a Vietnam vet, one of only three guys in the brigade with a right shoulder patch at the time. He and the other NCOs in the company took the LT under their wing and taught me what I needed to know. I learned a valuable lesson about the relationship between officers and non-commissioned from those men. It took me a while, but I slowly earned their respect, a respect that was more than just an acknowledgement of the gold bar on my collar. Those NCOs had a power and an influence on the basic training Soldiers that I didn't understand at the time. That initiation influenced the relationship I had with my NCOs for my entire career. Twenty eight years later, the NCOs I served with in Iraq and elsewhere, had the same power, respect, and influence over the Army as those NCOs who taught me my first real lessons about the real Army way back in 1985. I shudder to imagine what the Army would be like without a professional NCO corps.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2015 3:26 PM

2015-05-14T15:26:36-04:00

Let's correct the record first. NCOs are a type of "officer" too, just as we have other categories of officer with or without Appointments/Commissions. NCOs have authority derived from Congress to maintain order and to correct detrimental conditions, which we hope they accept as a sacred trust rather than a "power". Attitude is everything because it affects example. The authority and responsibility of an NCO has not changed except to become greater; perhaps our understanding of general military authority and command authority needs a refresher.

Response by MSG Martin C. made May 14 at 2015 4:15 PM

2015-05-14T16:15:25-04:00

It always has. The NCO is nothing more than the mid level management, we are like the foreman on a construction site. We do have an impact obviously on everything that happens on the daily operations but at the end of the day it all lays on the commander. There are initiatives to further develop the NCOS, like the strategic broadening seminar, unfortunately some of the requirements to attend are kind of difficult to meet. I know for a fact I meet the criteria to attend any of those within the Milper message exept I did not have a General Officer (not retired) to write me a letter.
The way I see it if we want to have a bigger impact we have the option to attend OCS, and warrant school but as long as we stay enlisted we are constricted to be nothing more than operational management.

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made May 14 at 2015 4:23 PM

2015-05-14T16:23:00-04:00

Let us hope not. While there will always be a need for the paper-pusher and administrator, true leadership and management comes from the sergeants and the lower-enlisted do the tasks. The Army should never be an officer's Army.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2015 8:36 PM

2015-05-14T20:36:08-04:00

In the era of certain people going out and filing injunctions against their command, I'd say it's more the era of the civilian influence upon the army more than anything else.

Response by SSG James Pease made May 15 at 2015 6:47 AM

2015-05-15T06:47:57-04:00

NCOs are there to lead soldiers, to train and teach them. Officers have always had the power. NCOs take their orders and carry them out. In the CEOs are and always will be the backbone of the Army.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made May 15 at 2015 12:07 PM

2015-05-15T12:07:46-04:00

@SGT Felipe J.

Today's Army, Yesterday's Army and Tomorrows Army are/have been and always will be an Army of Officers (Commissioned), Officers (Warrant), Non Commissioned Officers, and Junior enlisted. Officers have always had the power, those who are successful know that the NCO's and enlisted can have ideas about what would help and will listen when approached.

Sadly though, I have come across officers Commissioned and Warrant who would not listen to the suggestions of their "servants" and blow them off. Those were the officers that I had problems with. Working together is not that difficult, keeping the lines of communication open up and down the line is where the problems can start. As a lower enlisted/junior NCO you are expected to listen, and with some people in authority positions, remain silent.

The idea of seniors listening to juniors is something that is not new, but has not happened often enough unless it is the officer who realizes that the enlisted knows what he/she is talking about. However, as junior enlisted, you also need to understand that you do not know all and can benefit from the experience of the NCO, the Warrant Officer, and the Commissioned Officer.

In today's Army there are many officers, both commissioned and warrant who used to be among the enlisted, whether or not they remember where they came from is another story. To officers serving today I say thank you, but remember that without the soldiers under you you would still be out in the woods trying to find your way back inside the wire.

Pro Patria

Response by CPT Jack Durish made May 15 at 2015 2:59 PM

2015-05-15T14:59:59-04:00

Is this a grip or a question? Sure there are bad officers: commissioned, warrant, and non-commissioned. The good ones listen. That being said, there's a time for listening and a time for making decisions. Once decisions are made, it's time to act. If an officer fails to listen or listens only to the bad ideas and advice, it's up to them to take responsibility for the outcome. Ultimately, that is my litmus test for all leaders. Who is willing to take responsibility?

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made May 15 at 2015 3:14 PM

2015-05-15T15:14:20-04:00

Today's Army is OUR Army. It is not an Officer Army, or a NCO Army, or a WO Army, or a Junior Enlisted Army. It is a fighting force comprised of all ranks who have specified and implied roles within the organizational structure that ensure its success in peacetime and in war. It is imperative that we all understand our role, assist others with theirs, and move OUR Army to the next level. We owe that to our Nation, ourselves, and to those who have served before us.

Response by SSG VNicia Young made May 15 at 2015 8:26 PM

2015-05-15T20:26:30-04:00

I heard that and it makes me feel like that some days now. I am currently deployed and in my company we have 4 junior enlisted and about 10 NCOs the rest is nothing but officers and our company has about 50 out here

Response by SSG VNicia Young made May 15 at 2015 8:26 PM

2015-05-15T20:26:11-04:00

we have officers that smoke our NCOs so lets see... HUMMMMM (lost in thought)

Response by CH (LTC) Jim Howard made May 16 at 2015 9:01 AM

2015-05-16T09:01:45-04:00

Officers and NCOs function at different levels. Company grade officers rely on NCOs to execute the mission and insure that soldiers meet the standards that are required of them. A young officer who ignores his NCOs does so at his own peril. Officers can't function without good NCOs. I have been out of the Army for a very long time now, but I believe that one thing is always true, without good NCOs no Army can succeed.

Response by COL Ted Mc made May 16 at 2015 12:12 PM

2015-05-16T12:12:48-04:00

I believe that the first time this sentiment was expressed it was expressed by some Decanus in the XLVII Legion.

The statement is now hoary with tradition.

Response by CSM Frank Graham made May 18 at 2015 12:52 PM

2015-05-18T12:52:51-04:00

It has always been an Officer´s Army. Bottom line up front. NCOs you all have duties and responsibilities as NCOs. It is laid out in ARs and FMs. If you are doing what you are suppose to then there is no problem between you and your commanding Officer. Sometimes you will have Officers who are micro managers. It is your job NCOs to remind your Officer´s what their roles are from what your roles are. If you are doing your job you shouldn´t have a problem with your Officer. In serving 32 Years in the Infantry i had a problem with one Platoon Leader. He was quickly filtered out the Army. He helped himself out by being stupid and not listening to his NCOS or his Company Commander. When i became a 1SG i had no problems with my Commanders because i made sure my NCOs were taking care of business and my Commanders knew the deal. As a Operations SGM at Brigade level again no problems with my BDE S-3 except one and i had set him in the right direction. He is a General now. He listened after a few rough battles with me. Especially when i know i was right i always spoke my mind. My officers sometimes may have been pissed but they listened. The outcome was always good. Quite a few are general officers today. As a Bn CSM i worked only two Commanders and they both put out in their first meetings. When my CSM speaks you better listen and when he speaks i am speaking. As a BDE CSM i was fully supported by my Commander who is now a three star. No problems between us. When he put out his guidance i would enforce them. When somebody would decide not listen to what i said and it was brought to his attention he took care of them Officers mainly. But there was only a few cases. Finally on my way out i was a training center CSM. Both Commanders i had gave me 100% support and i gave them and my Soldiers 100% everyday i opened my eyes. I had no problem. NCOs who fail to do their jobs or speak up when needed will have problems and feel the way this question is asked. When you know you are 100% right speak up. No Officer will take action against you when you are right. Stand up for your Soldiers and yourself when need be. No one has to be a yes man. I pissed off a lot of officers in my time. Later on they learned that i was right. I was not perfect and may have made a few mistakes in my time. Most times i was spot on. The Army is getting better with NCO´s getting some of the things Officers has always gotten better, education and schooling. Assignments are getting alittle better also for senior NCO´s. It is improving. NCOs speak up and remember always be respectful and use Tact. It is what it is and what you make of it reference the subject here.

Response by CH (MAJ) William Beaver made May 20 at 2015 5:20 AM

2015-05-20T05:20:57-04:00

I will tell you this SGT. If it weren't for my 56M on my UMT, I would probably fail at my mission. If it weren't for the many NCOs along the way, I would have never become a SOLDIER. If it weren't for my favorite CSM, I would not have seen firsthand that squared away NCOs are truly the Army's backbone. Long live the NCOs!

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2015 2:00 PM

2015-05-22T14:00:37-04:00

After reading all these posts, the one thing that I see missing from this argument is the overall leadership from Senior NCOs down to junior NCOs. that fundamental issue is where we as NCOs are missing the mark. I can look back to my time as a Platoon Sergeant and remember the first time I walked into the COF and said to my NCOs. go get your counseling packets for review. they were incomplete and inaccurate, just one example. Young leaders are not getting the right amount of influence from what we are suppose to be to them, key word "mentors".

If we want to change how the senior leaders view NCOs it starts with us as leaders. some get it some don't, the ones that don't just need a little more attention and they to can grow and become great leaders in the Army. NCOs are leaders we lead from the front, lead by example and always maintain the standard. I challenge you, if you have a NCO that you believe is not up to the standard, then sit him down and counsel him, we own that as leaders and that is our charge, Officer or NCO.

Response by Col Kyle Taylor made May 26 at 2015 6:52 PM

2015-05-26T18:52:50-04:00

I would suggest that all levels of "power" or better said, authority for decisions has been moved up a few notches. Though high level leadership wants us to take ownership and to make changes to better what and how we do things, the bureaucracy (congress and law) doesn't allow decisions at that leve so leaders take over lower levels of decisions and so on. We are a top heavy military that needs to be trimmed down to allow proper decisions to be made at the proper level, otherwise we are just making people into decision and idea pushers as opposed to quality decision makers.

Response by SFC Mark Bailey made May 28 at 2015 2:25 PM

2015-05-28T14:25:12-04:00

I enlisted in the early 1980's and it was "The Army", not an NCO Army or a Officer Army.

Officers gave orders to the NCO's and the NCO's carried out those orders in a day-to-day, hour-by-hour drumbeat. Officers did not have to descend into the foxholes with their men unless they were Platoon Leaders, and even then not all the time. OP Orders were sometimes "I need you to get to this ridgeline by 0300 following this basic route to avoid friendly fire". I never EVER saw an OP order that read "call me every 5 minutes and I'll tell you if you can fire or not" or "Call me before you cross this line and I'll direct you on which turns to make in the road."

We were in Germany facing an enemy that we fully expected to wipe us out by their sheer weight of numbers. It was expected of us to carry on that mission regardless of the rank structure left after the VX gas and the Tac nukes hit us. Everyone was reminded daily of Normandy Beach and the phrase "Follow Me"

In the 1990's, during the Clinton drawdown, something odd happened;
50% of the E-4's and below were mustered out
20% of the E-5 to E-8's and O-1 to O-3's were mustered out
5% of the rest were mustered out

This left us with an extremely top heavy organization that had the most senior ranking fighting over the coveted "Command Positions". Whereas a BN TOC was filled with perhaps two dozen soldiers, it was now filled with dozens of "Power Point Rangers" all hoping to be given a Platoon or Company XO position. Where in 1988 a PL was there for 18 months or more, by 1995 they were in place for a mere 6-8 months "to make way for more 2LT's to be trained".

NCO's do NOT have the power, the respect, nor the leeway to get things done that they once had, and it is the reason why at 20 years I retired. In my unit back then we were actually told "NCO's don't train troops...2LT's do while the NCO's watch, listen, and learn".

The day that a 2LT can train troops better than an heavily-experienced, well-trained, properly motivated SGT or SSG can.... that will be a sad day in the US Army.

Do not tell me what an Officer can do, I know full well what one can do, should do, and should let his Chain of Concern handle. My last few years in teh US Army was spent training both Officers and Non-commissioned Officers in what the AR's and FM's said they should do. "Power" is not in who issues the commands or the directives, it lies in the people who DO the things that those commands and directives are all about.

Stop trying to say that because of a paycheck or a rank insignia you have mor or less power...start acting like a cohesive force that relies on good judgement from the highest ranks and good motivation from those following those in charge to get the job and get everyone home again safe and sound.

If you feel threatened by this message, then I have to suspect that somewhere in your background you are not comfortable with your skills, your training, or the concern for the welfare of your soldiers.... and if that is the case, then get your head out of your fourth point of contact because your feelings are not worthy of discussion when compared o the lives of your soldiers..... period...end-of-report...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2015 7:28 PM

2015-05-28T19:28:01-04:00

I believe that NCO business is NCO business. As long as we do our job and lead from the front rather than taking a back seat Officers that work side by side with us allow us to do our job. The problem that I see is that some NCOs are willing to take a back seat and allow the Officers to do our job which is unacceptable.

Response by CW2 Martin Brannan made May 28 at 2015 7:55 PM

2015-05-28T19:55:11-04:00

We had a saying in the 80s and 90s, the Army ain't what it used to be and it never was. People have a tendency to marry the good and bury the bad. In other words, we try to get over the bad times and concentrate on the good times. This leads to a belief that things in the past were necessarily better than they are now because, unlike the past, we cannot ignore the things that presently confront us that we don't like. Chances are not a lot has changed.

Response by Cpl Nicholas Coulter made May 29 at 2015 6:35 AM

2015-05-29T06:35:40-04:00

I feel this is true for all branches. I am a former Marine NCO as is my father. When he was in NCOs had the power to do whatever was necessary to get their jobs done. Now with all the movements going on and Mothers of America crying because their kids were "mistreated" in training the entire military has gone softer to appease them. Today's military is an officer's military. They are now the only ones with any power and they rarely use it as they should be able to because they're more politicians than service members now. Our military is on a downward spiral in my opinion.

Response by MSgt Abraham Negron made Jun 5 at 2015 7:32 PM

2015-06-05T19:32:13-04:00

I was not in the Army; however, I think the right word is influence. As a Marine for 21 years, I learned and followed the servant leadership model, up and down my chain of command. As a seasoned E-8, I always treated junior officers with the utmost respect. I looked at it as an opportunity to mentor, coach and inspire them so there was never a need for power. The respect was always there.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2015 7:42 PM

2015-06-05T19:42:25-04:00

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2015 8:15 PM

2015-06-05T20:15:07-04:00

Since the onset of OFI I it has been the NCO that has kept this ship afloat. Think about it who went into a combat zone unprepared for combat whether it was equipment or strategy and who were the ones that didn't prepare us adequately enough. Despite that it was the NCO that improvised and made it happened taking responsibility acting as plt sgts and leader. I find hard to believe anyone would underestimate the power of the NCO. The only problem we have had is that our civilian leadership allowed us to build a force in which anyone could surve, just to get more boots on the ground. So today the Army?TRADOC has created doctrine about you with out giving you credit.

Soldier 2020 is the U.S. Army's effort to capitalize on the last 13 years of combat lessons and advancements in the Army Profession. This effort will better match today's Soldiers - both men and women - with the demands of specific military occupational specialties. There writing about you understand the true power that you yield as an NCO.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2015 8:21 PM

2015-06-05T20:21:35-04:00

In my experience, it has become an Officer's Army because NCOs either don't know what their job is, or they just refuse to do it, then they get upset when I show them up. If they do their job a problem would not exist.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2015 4:31 PM

2015-06-06T16:31:03-04:00

I must agree for the most part with 1LT Rosa on this one. Everyone makes a valid point though. We must remember that we signed and took an oath that we would support and defend the constitution and obey the order of the potus and officers appointed over us. Guys. Look. I feel your pain. We have had those new LTs that just want to micro manage everything. We have to remember though. It is our job as a noncommissioned officer to take care of our soldiers and our officers. We must keep in mind that we make things happen. It is our influence that breeds the next generation of soldier. Don't ever forget that. When we are given the orders we execute them and ensure they are done properly which means that your officer trusts you as a leader to do the right thing. We all have power. General military authority is just an example. Cohesive power is another. Read AR600-20 if you want to know more. The army is built this way for a reason because at the end of the day if something fails it falls on the officer. Don't get me wrong. I believe we should just be given our task list and we execute how we see fit since we are the ones who know our soldiers better than anyone else but that's not always the case. When it's all said and done we work together. They support our decisions and we support theirs. That's how this thing has stayed together for 240+ years men. No matter the issues at the end of the day we are still the most lethal killing machine on the lamer that is a force not to be tampered with. And still the champions of two world wars. Enough said.

Response by CPT Carl Ford made Jun 9 at 2015 12:29 PM

2015-06-09T12:29:45-04:00

If this is true, we are in real trouble.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2015 11:42 AM

2015-06-11T11:42:33-04:00

I think that the first mistake you are making is talking about this as power. There is a relationship between officers and NCO's that is clearly defined. With out going into regs this is my view on it. First you must understand that as Commissioned officers, officers have a legal responsibility for their equipment and soldiers. So at the end of the day everything leads back to that officer. At a command level you develop into a command team, this is where the commander and the Senior NCO develop a relationship and discus how the unit is going to operate, it is through this relationship that CSM, 1SG and PSG derive their authority to act on behalf of the commander. In my command team I take care of the soldiers, this includes everything (training, moral, discipline..... On and on). The bottom line it is my responsibility with in all Army regulations to ensure that all soldier's with in the command I work for are prepared to conduct the mission when the commander is ready to lead the mission. So if you as an NCO feel like you don't have "Power" then you need to start developing a better and stronger relationship with the officer(s) that you work with and for.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2015 10:37 AM

2015-08-17T10:37:09-04:00

This varies by unit and the overall leadership and environment. Good officers utilize the NCO Corps as they should. They are the backbone of the Army and mission cannot be accomplished without them. I have seen great leaders and poor leaders on both sides of the coin but leading in today's Army IMO has been getting more challenging with everything you must be concerned about. The days of NCO's and Officers giving a good butt chewing or smoke session is all but gone, which I think is detrimental and has led to a more entitled-feeling Army on both sides. Two things good leaders should always keep in mind is that you can delegate Authority but never responsibility, and if you are explaining, you're losing.

Response by MSG Robert Mills made Nov 18 at 2015 1:00 AM

2015-11-18T01:00:19-05:00

You better believe it is true. Disheartened, disappointed, betrayed, ummm yea Officers Army alright. They need to do a top down cleaning starting at the ranks of COL, and LTC over 20 years to save money. If you would like a list I'd be happy to provide one.

Response by 1SG Nick Baker made Nov 18 at 2015 4:17 AM

2015-11-18T04:17:28-05:00

I do not think the statement or question is understood. The rate of senior officers getting relieved for conduct is a sure sign that something is wrong in the officer core. SGT Colon, explain your comment.

Response by Capt Walter Miller made Nov 19 at 2015 11:31 AM

2015-11-19T11:31:06-05:00

Wasn't that guy in the picture tossed for sexual abuse?

Walt

Response by MSgt Rick Hovik made Nov 19 at 2015 12:05 PM

2015-11-19T12:05:46-05:00

I think a few disgruntled folks have too much time on there hands.

Response by MAJ David Vermillion made Nov 28 at 2015 6:16 PM

2015-11-28T18:16:13-05:00

I have always relied on NCOs to lead the way. Yes, you officers have the command and control but never forget the experience of NCOs and what they bring to the table. A General can't lead without troops.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2016 3:55 PM

2016-02-04T15:55:02-05:00

Power? Do you mean authority? No matter what you mean those who have lost it likely did so because they failed in their basic responsibilities. I've seen it happen. You have to earn those stripes every day.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2016 7:39 AM

2016-02-12T07:39:57-05:00

The "power/authority" that NCO's "had" is still there. If you are looking at it in the past tense then you've probably allowed your authority to be taken from you. Our authority to act as NCO's is granted to us from the Officer Corps. It is our duty to execute their decisions; to advise them on matters; and to present a unified front with them in front of Soldiers. The best command teams (Officer/NCO) are those that complement each other - and in doing so recognize the roles and responsibilities that each have. I am very fortunate to have an excellent working relationship with the battalion commander I work for. I may only physically see him two days a month but we communicate frequently during the work week and he enables me to do my job and represent him.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2016 9:16 PM

2016-02-15T21:16:01-05:00

Not really, I wouldn't get anything done without my warrants and NCOs.

We are mostly paper shufflers and planners. All the "doing" is done by the enlisted corps.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2016 3:27 PM

2016-02-18T15:27:00-05:00

It all depends on what type on unit, post, division that you are assigned to

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2016 7:38 PM

2016-07-16T19:38:19-04:00

If you fell powerless as an NCO CORE then perhaps this is due to a lack of confidence in yourself, because im sure that the overall NCO CORE DOES NOT FEEL THIS WAY. ALSO THIS TYPE OF THINKING BREEDS TOXICITY WITHIN THE NCO CORE, IT MAKES YOU AND OTHER SOLDIERS WHO THINK THIS WAY LOOK AT THE OFFICER CORE AS THEM AGAINST US, AND THIS SHOULD NEVER BE ASSERTED. WE ARE STRONGER TOGETHER THAN WE ARE SEPERATELY, WE ALL HAVE AN IMPORTANT JOB TO DO AS SOLDIERS AND REMEMBER WE ALL TAKE OUR ORDERS FROM THE CONGRESS AS WELL AS THE PENTAGON ON DOWN TO THE MILITARY OFFICERS TO THE ENLISTED NCO'S. SO YEA, WE ARE EQUALLY POWERFUL. MSG. BATTLES 14Z RETIRED

Response by SFC Bill Snyder made Jul 25 at 2016 6:47 AM

2016-07-25T06:47:16-04:00

That started back in the '70s when NCOs below E8 were treated like overpaid Privates.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2016 1:50 PM

2016-07-28T13:50:35-04:00

Sad to say but this is the truth. I remember when the Army was NCO Lead (1984-90) and Officers were figureheads that signed what we said sign and we were trusted to get the job done. An Officer lead Army is what caused the crumble of the Japanese Army and now they swear by the greatness of their NCO's.
I had hoped that this was just a phase but no such luck. AND, the bigger problem is the lack of trust between Officers and NCO's also the lack of respect from JR Officers toward SR NCO's. You cannot learn from somebody that you have been taught to not trust. This need major repair.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2016 2:02 PM

2016-07-28T14:02:11-04:00

I'm an officer and a former NCO. I disagree whole heartedly. Officers are planners and managers, NCOs train and lead. Together we enjoy mission success. Officers may be the highest ranking leader in the unit, but it comes down to the day to day leadership and example of NCOs that makes our Army great.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Jul 28 at 2016 3:23 PM

2016-07-28T15:23:22-04:00

Officer's gave the responsibilities, NCO's have power. NCO's execute, if they execute poorly, the Officer takes the brunt of it. I told Officers when I was a SFC, my job is to make you look good, I will do that if you trust me, violate that trust, I can make you look bad

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2016 4:33 PM

2016-07-28T16:33:42-04:00

I would say tge power NCOs had was due to an overall weakness in the Officer ranks at low levels. And now that a purge has begun at the NCO level there is a lack of quality enlisted leadership. I knew alot of good NCOs that left because of the bullshit. Never knew one officer that left for reasons other than promotions.

Response by CSM William Payne made Jul 28 at 2016 8:37 PM

2016-07-28T20:37:29-04:00

That the NCO is the backbone of the Army is more than just a catch phrase, it's a fact that NCOs must endeavor to live up to.

I spent 40 years in uniform, 17 as a Command Sergeant Major, 9 at the nominative level, including a year in a multi/national, joint forces billet in Iraq.

I can say without any reservation that the NCO in the American military in general and in the Army specifically, carry more responsibility, are recognized and more respected than NCOs serving in any other military in the world.

One of the hardest responsibilities I had in Iraq was selling their military in the value of a strong NCO Corps.

In my 40 years I ran into a couple of officers that either didn't know the difference between NCO business or didn't care. The ones that didn't know needed to be educated and the ones that just wanted to get down in the weeds with you, you would just do your job in spite of them.

I always sat down early with my raters and learned exactly what was expected of me, I learned the commander's intent and volunteered what skills I had that could help them succeed in their position.

If you don't do your job, many officers will try to step in and do it for you. So it's up to you not to abdicate your responsibilities.

Lead by example, maintain the standards, for them and yourself, detect and correct, train your subordinates, treat them with respect, never expect them to do something you would never do yourself, get to know them, take care of them and their families, lead by walking around, listen to them, be even handed in your praise, awards, rewards, your discipline and remember that not all counseling is bad. Know what's in your lane and what to do if it's not.

Make it a big deal when your subordinates become NCO's and subsequent promotions.

Learn the NCO Creed and endeavor to live it everyday.

Response by SFC Don Ward made Jul 28 at 2016 10:24 PM

2016-07-28T22:24:35-04:00

Hate to break it to you, but the Defense of the Nation, which means the entirety of the Military, has always been led by Civillians. POTUS (CinC) is a civillian, SECDEF and all of the Branch Chiefs=Civilians. Of course, the next step in the chain are Officers, followed by the NCO. Officers have always been admin types, NCO's are the action fellows. Take any Lieutenant, and $3.00, and you can buy a cup of coffee almost anywhere

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2016 11:11 PM

2016-07-28T23:11:04-04:00

Great Officers are those who seek opinions and advise of their Senior Enlisted counterparts. Don't have to always agree but, to have that open communication between the two, will make a difference between a successful or unsuccessful career for an Officer. College and military schooling, no matter how much they tell you different, will never be better then the experience of an NCO. Like I said, Officers don't have to agree with the advise, but better to approach a decision a little more calculatedly, though SNCO advise, then making decisions on their own. In the end, they are the Officer and have final say. Just know, that your textbook decisions affect the lives of all the troops and their families under you.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2016 11:17 PM

2016-07-28T23:17:43-04:00

Aren't many of the posts simply pointing out that no one works in a vacuum?
If you are leading a charge and no one follows you, then it's you...
When we put too much emphasis on one end of the equation, things don't go so well.
Physics tells us there is no movement without support. What is supporting cannot move and what is moving cannot provide support. It's a relationship where one depends on the other.

Response by 1SG Michael Farrell made Jul 29 at 2016 12:20 AM

2016-07-29T00:20:58-04:00

I have some issues with this one. The Army is a soldier's army, and the jobs of NCOs and Officers are different. Good officers let good NCOs take care of everything they can, because the officers have an exceptionally large amount of bullshit to pay attention to. But, a potentially great officer can be ruined by a weak or cowardly or stupid Sergeant faster than by a speeding bullet. And what is left is an officer who knows only one thing about NCOs..."they're sly and lazy and bear considerable watching." This argument surfaces every few years, usually when the Army is going through some uncomfortable transition that has nothing to do with the Army and more to do with national politics.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2016 11:09 AM

2016-07-29T11:09:32-04:00

There is a role for everyone. Find your happy place and get there. Dividing the ranks by status is counter-productive to the mission. One team, one fight.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2017 12:46 PM

2017-09-03T12:46:10-04:00

It requires all of the Officers, NCO and soldiers to accomplish the mission which we all know comes from CIC down to the generals to formulate overall plan which rolls down hill. Thanks for all those on active duty for my freedom and working together for the USA.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Sep 3 at 2017 2:19 PM

2017-09-03T14:19:42-04:00

Absolutely, there is no up in the chain of command, only down. There are enough Officers involved in every decision to guarantee he will be wrong. I could never have tolerated the nit picking in todays Army

Response by PFC Donald De Paola made Sep 3 at 2017 2:28 PM

2017-09-03T14:28:39-04:00

Could have fooled me.

Response by PFC Cedric Powell made Sep 3 at 2017 2:42 PM

2017-09-03T14:42:15-04:00

I heard so many times that NCO's have had a lot of authority taken from them. To me when it is said like that, the words power and authority are interchangeable. Honestly speaking, if I were an NCO, I refuse to get into a power struggle with anyone. If the commander/platoon leader wants it a certain way, so be it. There's a caveat though, it won't be at the expense of losing a soldier's life over it.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2017 2:47 PM

2017-09-03T14:47:13-04:00

When I assumed command of an Artillery Battalion, the comments across the board from our evaluators the summer camp before pointed out that the Officers were not using the NCO's well. My first task was to find a new SGM and ensure that he and I knew that we all had to pull our weight. He and I would meet to discuss where we were and go our separate ways. I am very proud that He and I as a team took our Battalion through a successful ARTEP and it seemed to be easy once everyone worked on their tasks. Every officer should have a SGM that knows what to do and get it done.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2017 3:22 PM

2017-09-03T15:22:31-04:00

If you're in this business for the power, you need to retire/resign/ETS...

Response by 1SG Dale Cantrell made Sep 3 at 2017 4:11 PM

2017-09-03T16:11:37-04:00

NCOs are the doers and performers , Officers sign for and are responsible for the doers and performers , both have the same goals

Response by SSG Brent Reck made Sep 3 at 2017 5:12 PM

2017-09-03T17:12:33-04:00

Speaking as a veteran NCO, most of us took a lot of pride in leading by example. I'd hope active duty feels the same way today

Response by SFC Oddie Brown made Sep 3 at 2017 7:52 PM

2017-09-03T19:52:08-04:00

You're either a leader or a follower. It starts at birth. Rank has nothing to do with it. If you're a weak NCO don't blame officers. Look in the mirror. Officers should expect NCOs to lead by example, not by excuse.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 5 at 2017 10:57 PM

2017-09-05T22:57:29-04:00

You cant move a HMMWV without wheels, Fly the plane without the wings, or move the ship without a propeller......guess what i'm getting at is without support leadership is grounded and that's what NCOs do support leadership.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2018 3:12 AM

2018-01-20T03:12:31-05:00

E-5s and under does all the work anyway while the offices plan and corrdinates events for the future. It’s the NCOs responsibility to make sure all the preparations are done in accordance to the training schedule. While the NCOs take charge and command their team to make sure this happens, the soldiers that are actually doing the work are the E-5s and below. But if I had to choose then it would be the NCOs of course. Just a personal opinion

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2018 2:37 PM

2018-01-24T14:37:18-05:00

Yeah, I was always more afraid of the Comand Sargent Majors, and Sargent Majors then any officer. They may not truly have the power, but in the eyes of us shit kickers. They are the ultimate power. Why else would E-5 and below scatter when they come walking up with storm clouds billowing up behind them hahaha.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2018 3:07 PM

2018-01-24T15:07:21-05:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member I think that if you want NCOs to have power that they used to the CSMs need to stop doing the lip service of back to the basics and actually develop their 1SGs and they their PLT SGTs all the way done. That is the backbone of the Army. Without the professional development and discipline within the ranks they lose their power by giving it up and not doing their job.

With that said there were some great NCOs out there doing a great job at their job. But people focus on the negative and magnify that and make it seem like a larger problem than it may be. It really depends on the unit.

Response by CW4 Chad Balwanz made Jan 24 at 2018 6:54 PM

2018-01-24T18:54:53-05:00

Show me a good officer and I will show you scores of NCO's who mentored and provided sound council. The good officers listen and learn. Officers are only as good as the NCO's they grew up with.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Jan 24 at 2018 8:54 PM

2018-01-24T20:54:14-05:00

Top heavy as it can be, Officers doing jobs once done by enlisted men. I doesn't seem too bad at 0-1 through o-4 but above that

Response by LTC Rick Winn made Jan 27 at 2018 1:09 AM

2018-01-27T01:09:10-05:00

i don't know was a maverick. every success was due to an NCO

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2018 11:06 AM

2018-01-27T11:06:26-05:00

This has been some of the downfall of the Army lately. New officer's are being fed this 1830s crap how they are better than the enlisted and should look down on them, and even that they don't need to listen to their NCOs. I was told by an O5 that Officer's run the Army. No, NCOs run the Army, officers make decisions and write policy, but the NCOs get stuff done. This has become so bad that many NCOs have lost their power and might as well be SPC 5,6 and even 7s. It began with not letting us smoke soldiers and just coddling them and counseling for every..single..thing, when a good 15 min of time with the 50 cal barrel would correct it no problem. Officer's have removed SGTs time training and NCO business from vocabulary.
Go back and hide in the office, do some MDMP, if there's a war blow your whistle and the NCOs will come help you.

Response by SFC Greg Bruorton made Jan 31 at 2018 6:06 PM

2018-01-31T18:06:37-05:00

The officer sporting the 82nd combat patch looks a lot like Colonel Williams here on RP. Right or wrong?

Response by SFC William Ewing made Aug 14 at 2019 2:32 AM

2019-08-14T02:32:23-04:00

Isn't it a team effort. We learn and teach each other every rank from private to President has a brain and should contribute to the mission. You never know where the winning idea will come from. Hedgerows Normandy is a example.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2019 10:12 AM

2019-08-14T10:12:54-04:00

Officers are in charge, they always have been. However, we have the strongest NCO corps in the world. The responsibilities our NCOs carry are equivalent or greater than the junior officers of many countries. It is in recognition of that, that officers are always paired with NCOs, to not only advise but to assist in their development, being that NCOs typically have a greater depth of experience.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2019 6:48 AM

2019-08-15T06:48:06-04:00

I never bieved in, nor fed into, the officers vs NCOs BS, which is what it is.
Officers have their roles, and NCOs have theirs.
Anyone who sees it as some power struggle doesn't deserve to be either, nor will they be successful until they do see the different roles.
There are plenty of NCOs who elected to remain NCOs because they enjoyed that role.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Aug 15 at 2019 7:47 AM

2019-08-15T07:47:21-04:00

There are regulations which dictate both roles and authorities. Nothing has changed for decades and nothing should. Our Military is the envy of almost every other on the planet.

This photo may not have been the best in depicting from either front, unless it was intentional then the premise of the feed is tainted. Thank you for your service.

Response by SPC Ruben Marin made Aug 15 at 2019 5:00 PM

2019-08-15T17:00:25-04:00

There's the backbone (NCO) and there is the brain (officers) without the other the human body could not function properly, or at all. Each plays its own role. While the NCO carries out the orders, the officer plans it and gives it. Ultimately the officer is responsible, but both officer and NCO work together to accomplish what is needed. It's the NCO experience and wisdom that guides the troops and helps the officer make decisions. It's the officers smarts and leadership skills that keeps the until functioning. You need both and both lead in their own way.

Response by SGT Donald Croswhite made Aug 15 at 2019 7:12 PM

2019-08-15T19:12:28-04:00

Any time in Garrison is an officers world.

Response by SPC Brian Romine made Aug 16 at 2019 10:23 AM

2019-08-16T10:23:55-04:00

Let's be honest, the e4 mafia really runs the show. The officers put out the orders, the nco passes it down, and the e4 makes sure the private does it while he drinks coffee and supervises.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2019 12:44 PM

2019-08-16T12:44:34-04:00

Its true, im at Bliss, and the NCO’s have NO power, I never thought that I would ever see the Army, go this way, 22 years and NCO’s are not the in charge anymore... we are not allowed to even think of solutions and when we do, its apparent that its not good enough, and the officers put up a plan, and when it does not work, then they back track and ask us for help...22 years versus someone with 1 to 3 years of experience... hmmmm

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2019 3:07 PM

2019-08-16T15:07:09-04:00

In many ways the officers have less power than they've ever had historically.

NCO's don't have the same unchecked **delegated** authority they may have had in the days of the draft and for about 20 years after, but the structure of the Army is such that only Commanders have authority. Everyone else has the authority delegated to them by the Commander.

Response by MSG John Melville made Aug 16 at 2019 4:17 PM

2019-08-16T16:17:46-04:00

I hate to break it to you but NCOs run the army and always have. Officers command and NCOs lead, mentor and develop Soldiers. At the old 7th NCOA in Germany, we were told that the army could run without officers but that officers could not run the army without NCOs. It is what it is.

Response by CPL Shayne Sanchez made Aug 16 at 2019 4:34 PM

2019-08-16T16:34:11-04:00

Well let's just say I pulled a Plugger out of the hands of a butter bar because he had us doing circles at NTC for 3 hours......That was as a Specialist . If I was a Corporal I would have wrote him a counseling statement.....lol

Response by SGT Geoffrey Keahey made Aug 16 at 2019 4:54 PM

2019-08-16T16:54:03-04:00

The officers decide what to do. The NCOs see that it gets done.

Response by SSG Mike Fannings made Aug 16 at 2019 6:47 PM

2019-08-16T18:47:48-04:00

While it is true that officers command. Most successful officers were TRAINED and guided and nurtured by a PLATOON SGT. Who made suggestions, and basically kept that young 2nd LT out of trouble.

Response by SFC Carmelo Echevarria made Aug 16 at 2019 8:58 PM

2019-08-16T20:58:21-04:00

Sergeants are officers, just not commissioned. And I think that's pretty cool.

Response by SFC K Haggins made Aug 16 at 2019 9:37 PM

2019-08-16T21:37:02-04:00

I am a retired SFC of the Army and Maryland army national guard from Desert storm to Enduring freedom.
Officers by rank are ultimately in charge of the military in its self planning today and tomorrow’s path!
NCO train all who serve and advise those same officer by there sheer time in grade as subject matter experts.
Enlisted execute that plan with the training there given by NCO they one day want to replace!
It is a symbiotic relationship if everyone knows their role
OFFICERS PLAN
NCO IMPLEMENT THATS PLAN
ENLISTED SOLIDER EXCUTE SAID PLAN
Whooaaa

Response by Neal Chamberlain made Aug 16 at 2019 9:58 PM

2019-08-16T21:58:16-04:00

My daughter (now a major) went from enlisted to officer. The first thing she did at her new post was to find the oldest sergeant on post and make friends. This was vital to her success since she was in command of the unit (National Guard) as a 2Lt.

Response by CPT Robert Holden made Aug 16 at 2019 10:23 PM

2019-08-16T22:23:59-04:00

How can it be an officers army when officers are the smallest group in the army ?

Response by SFC Keith Bailey made Aug 16 at 2019 11:03 PM

2019-08-16T23:03:40-04:00

I served from 1976 till 1998, Some amazing units. Some poor units. I never felt that any Officer ever stepped over my authorized duties. Not power , duty. I served with some of the finest officers ever . What is your problem with " Power " ?

Response by Cpl Daniel Rogers made Aug 16 at 2019 11:15 PM

2019-08-16T23:15:13-04:00

What this translates to is that NCO’s are upset that they can’t punish troops like in the old days...no more tree line or IT...granted I’ve been out for about 8 years but that being said there is more then one way to skin a cat

Response by LTC James Washington made Aug 17 at 2019 8:25 AM

2019-08-17T08:25:48-04:00

Our NCO corps has ebbed and flows. As the COL in the first post says if a CSM, 1SG, PSG said it you could be assured it came from the commander. At one of the ebb periods in the late 1970s an ADA Officer friend was in an exercise in Holland. There was a meeting and when it broke the American LTs started scurrying around prepping to move there units to the next day’s locations. The Brit LTC can out with map in hand, called “Sergeant Major” who immediately reported - he then pointed to the map and said, “Sergeant Major” (appropriate accent, of course) “We are here. Tomorrow morning at 0500 I want to be here(another point) prepared to engage the enemy.” SGM, “Aye-Aye, suh!” That was two things - a perfect example of a Mission Order and the difference between a NCO run and a junior officer run army. I’ve been out 27 years but still work with the Army. My impression is that NCOs are doing what NCOs do much more widely than 45 years ago.

Response by SPC Christopher Anderson made Aug 17 at 2019 9:31 AM

2019-08-17T09:31:25-04:00

Power in the US Army should be a discussion in regards to firepower, torque, HP, or Gen Set capacity. All "power" comes from doctrine, policy, and according laws and regulations. To even discuss who has greater power is akin to asking who has a bigger dick. It's just stupid. Officers state the mission the NCO's make it happen it's that simple. As far as power in leadership, be an actual leader and your soldiers will empower you beyond what you knew possible....

Response by CW3 Doyle Frost made Aug 17 at 2019 10:35 AM

2019-08-17T10:35:39-04:00

Officers plan, NCO's do. It's a two headed coin. One does not accomplish the mission without the other. That simple.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2019 5:36 PM

2019-08-17T17:36:21-04:00

You all are wrong. The E4 Mafia runs the Army. The officers make up paper work, the NCOs regurgitate what's on the paperwork and the the E4 mafia makes and executes the real plan while at dental.

Response by SPC(P) Warren Soriano made Aug 17 at 2019 6:52 PM

2019-08-17T18:52:39-04:00

I always thought of it as O's are strategic thinkers (planning, support, budgets, etc.), NCO's are tactical (training, fitness, equipment, etc). Each corps has a distinct role - both vital to the accomplishment of the mission. I have not experienced either wanting to take-over the other's role.

Response by SGT Tim Finnell made Aug 17 at 2019 10:10 PM

2019-08-17T22:10:06-04:00

At the end of the day experience wins. Going from an nco to corporate america. Any business can suffice without a ruler but no business can survive without a worker. College degrees can be bought but work ethic cannot.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2019 10:30 PM

2019-08-17T22:30:33-04:00

Officers have the power but in my 18 years, they are lead by strong NCOs to assist in planning and executing the intent. As a current First Sergeant, I do my best to get the commander in a position to be promoted, with the intent of taking care of the next commander the same way.

Response by SMSgt Ed Turney made Aug 18 at 2019 7:27 PM

2019-08-18T19:27:54-04:00

Ask an E-9.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2019 9:02 AM

2019-08-19T09:02:23-04:00

Like many of us here on Rally Point, I've been junior enlisted, NCO, and officer. I've even been that shadowy semi-warrant know as the Spec. 6. I'm not sure if those are qualifications to comment, but having been on the internet all day I do know that qualifications have little to do with comments in general (I have not been a general). First of all, "power" is a nebulous term. The only power anyone in the U.S. Army has is granted by government mandate, regulation, or permission of a superior. This is usually based on rank and position. Officers have specific duties and responsibilities that NCOs don't . Likewise, NCOs perform and oversee functions that officers may direct but do not need to get personally involved with. Things can go wrong for a variety of reasons that we don't have the space to discuss. Now, it took me a minute to get comfortable with officer business. I still thought like an NCO, "Do it like this." "Let me show you how that works." . Through some good guidance and self-realization, I began to understand that officers are more mission-oriented. This is not to say that they do not care about anything else, but the mission must be the primary focus of an officer. That's what they are commissioned to do. Officers must PLAN. They work out the logistics, manpower, scheduling, and training requirements of achieving an desired end-state. Whether the end-state is garrison-simple or combat-complex does not matter, it is the officer's responsibility to make sure that the NCO has everything he or she needs to EXECUTE the plan and that the end-state is achieved. If NCOs have been promoted to soon, if they have shown that they cannot effectively execute (and it isn't because they are commanded by a buffoon), if they do not have the strength of will and character to lead, then the officer may have to step in. Officers do not usually get do-overs, and this makes some of them very nervous. Your really good NCOs have a knack for giving their officers a warm fuzzy feeling about how things are going. I agree that in recent times, officers have had to get in the weeds too much, but the why is that? Do we promote the best leaders to NCO ranks, or anyone who checks the blocks? Do officers have people that can be trusted to execute? Would we get better results if officers would just let the NCOs run with the plan, only providing guidance when needed to stay on track? Maybe. Thing is, it's not an "officer's Army" exactly. It's the U.S. Army, and everyone has a role and certain responsibilities. Serve with pride and try to be the best at what you do. You might be surprised at how much power that gives you.

Response by CPT Henry Bassman made Aug 19 at 2019 12:00 PM

2019-08-19T12:00:46-04:00

This is the same complaint I heard frequently when I was on active duty more than 50 years ago. I can't respond to the situation today but I can say that when I was in command, I relied on my NCOs for accomplishing the missions and objectives I received from my commander and passed along to them. In those cases where I had to make a command decision, I always asked for advice or confirmation from the relevant NCOs. They had the specific knowledge of the situation, technology and people that I lacked. If that approach has changed it is to the detriment of the Army.

Response by CMSgt George Barrett made Aug 19 at 2019 1:08 PM

2019-08-19T13:08:35-04:00

I'm not Army, but in the Air Force we have what we call "keeper officers". These are the ones who listen to the NCOs and who do not let a degree negate common sense. Ask any CMSgt how many General Officers they helped get their career on the right track. As we are often stationed with the Army I have noticed the same thing with your senior NCOs.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2019 2:33 PM

2019-08-19T14:33:17-04:00

Officers make the decisions that get the rest of us killed so yeah, they have the power.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2019 2:46 PM

2019-08-19T14:46:39-04:00

Love this photo. The junior officers in this picture are amazing. Dave did great things for the army and Mike is still kicking ass. Can’t say the same for LTC Sinclair

Response by SFC Tony Longoria made Aug 19 at 2019 8:07 PM

2019-08-19T20:07:29-04:00

I beg to differ

Response by LTC Gene Moser made Aug 19 at 2019 10:36 PM

2019-08-19T22:36:19-04:00

I've been told that when Napoleon wrote out an order he would find a literate corporal and ask him to explain his order - which might be for the entire Grande Armee.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Aug 20 at 2019 4:49 AM

2019-08-20T04:49:28-04:00

The army has shifted to a degree. NCO's still are the backbone of the army. Air force should bring back warrants. All the air force NCO's are complaining

Response by SFC Michael D. made Aug 20 at 2019 10:17 AM

2019-08-20T10:17:00-04:00

That's an age old question even when I was getting out in 1997.

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Aug 20 at 2019 10:49 AM

2019-08-20T10:49:03-04:00

They may have been marginalized based on today's culture in the Military! Where officers are more fixed in working more closely with soldiers!

Response by CPT Earl George made Sep 6 at 2019 7:29 AM

2019-09-06T07:29:28-04:00

When you enter a unit as an officer, It is nice to see a full compliment of NCO's (if you are fortunate enough to be at full strength). I had a 4.2" mortar platoon for about 3 months in Germany in the 70's that did not have any NCO's(authorized 10). My platoon sergeant was a SP4. There were 31 in the platoon counting myself. I had 9 SP4's. It's a whole new ball game without NCO's. By the way my platoon sergeant was a draftee.

Response by SPC Michael Pellegrino made Oct 16 at 2019 9:10 PM

2019-10-16T21:10:28-04:00

In my time in the Army we always thought the NCO'S were the go to people

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2019 10:43 PM

2019-11-04T22:43:07-05:00

Officers have authority, based on level of responsibility. Perhaps this is what many perceive as power.

Response by MAJ Doug Mattox made Feb 23 at 2020 3:31 PM

2020-02-23T15:31:32-05:00

I can only speak about the time I was in and what I saw. This was right after the fall of the Soviet Union and the military was having huge cuts in personnel and money. The competition was tight for the higher ranks. I observed micromanagement become the order of the day. I saw BN commanders getting involved in tank crew business. The problem becomes when you start doing someone else's job they are soon going to quit doing their job, and why not? Someone is doing it for them. I understand a commander is responsible for what happens in his command but you have to train your NCOs to do NCO business and not do NCO business yourself. I have seen it here on Rally Point. I witnessed a conversation about what an officer should do about a certain situation (cleaning of a barracks). It was clearly NCO business but you had officers talking about how they would get involved.
I am not saying NCOs do not have the power they used to have but I am saying in my time I have seen Officers getting bogged down in NCO business. Maybe I was spoiled by having great NCOs in my command I don't know. Maybe I see it a little differently because my Dad was a Sergeant Major. He preached to me, let the NCOs do their work and if you have one that won't do it, get rid of them. I have been out for 10 years now. I have no idea if it is better or worse.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2020 11:02 AM

2020-02-25T11:02:35-05:00

I wouldn't use power, but would use authority (as many have already pointed out.) Command consists of authority and responsibility. Commander's are responsible for everything their unit does or fails to do, but the larger the unit, the more the commander has to delegate authority. Subordinate officers and NCOs only have as much authority as the commander allows/delegates. I learned a long time ago that when an NCO tells an officer, "Sir, this is NCO business." that this statement was really shorthand for, "Sir, the commander has normally delegated authority for this type of situation to NCOs - so, if you let me handle it, I will and let you know how things turn out."

Response by SSG Roland Shelton made Feb 25 at 2020 2:20 PM

2020-02-25T14:20:20-05:00

As a young, but very good 2nd Lt once told me, "the army can survive without officers but it cannot survive without ncos.

Response by PO2 Jeff King made Feb 25 at 2020 6:09 PM

2020-02-25T18:09:01-05:00

In the Navy, it's the Chiefs who get things done.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2020 6:10 PM

2020-02-25T18:10:18-05:00

What's your definition of power? Authority or something a little less legal? Truth is it doesn't matter the branch. Officers have all the legal authority in the world. Should the certain NCO's, or Petty Officers in the more naval branch simply decide to start their own program there is a lot they can get away with.

Unit CO says workday lasts between these times. The crafty NCO will find ways around it, and will likely take large portions of his subordinates with him. As every NCO learned before they got stripes, the boss can't be everywhere at once, and as they moved up they learned that there are fewer bosses.

Col Williams made it sound poetic. Truth is the strips are where the rubber meets the road. You loose enough of your Non-Comms they'll run things without you, and they will do it their way, and it'll be a devil to get everyone on the same page again.

Response by MSG James Frost made Feb 25 at 2020 6:36 PM

2020-02-25T18:36:49-05:00

Many years ago I had the pleasure of escorting the Chief of Staff of the Ukrainian Army and the Commandant of their military academy. We went to several locations but the one that held their interest the most was the NCO Academy at Ft Bragg. Why? Because in their army and the Russian Army there is commissioned officer where we have a platoon sergeant. He micro manages everything they do, even when he is young and inexperienced. No one else is cross trained or has leadership experience. If something were to happen to that commissioned officer, everything would come to a halt. They were avid fans of the the great NCO corps of the US Army and asked many questions, planning to take that information home and implement a similar NCO program. The NCOs at all levels make the Army run.

Response by SFC Greg Rhoads made Feb 25 at 2020 7:57 PM

2020-02-25T19:57:40-05:00

Retired in ‘95 and was an NCO’s Army. So couldn’t say about the past 25 years.

Response by SGT Kyle Bickley made Feb 25 at 2020 8:56 PM

2020-02-25T20:56:41-05:00

Officers have always been in command! NCO's follow and excited the orders. The main difference is we are the enlisted teachers, trainers, first line of discipline. We accomplish the mission by all means necessary!

Response by CW5 Roger Jacobs made Feb 25 at 2020 10:38 PM

2020-02-25T22:38:39-05:00

A good NCO is worth his weight in gold. An NCO who feels entitled because of his rank is worthless. Same for officers.

Response by CW4 Tim Leival made Feb 26 at 2020 6:32 AM

2020-02-26T06:32:33-05:00

Before this devolves into a debate into the difference between "power" and "authority", I recommend we define our terms. I submit the following for consideration. "Authority" is what we are given under the Constitution, laws and regulations to legally pursue mission accomplishment. It comes with great responsibility in the form of legal jeopardy. "Power" is what we build with our character, communications and will. It is morally neutral: it can be used for good or evil depending on individual motivation. It comes with even greater responsibility in that its use is judged by all, including your perception of the divine, and it's use in extremity becomes your character and reputation forever.

Under this definition, Officers wield all authority under law. NCOs build power within the framework of authority using the tools of character and will. Both groups can and often do use the authority they have to build power, and also both groups can and occasionally do misuse both power and authority.

By the way, under these definitions, Warrant Officers simply rock the world.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2020 8:52 AM

2020-02-26T08:52:38-05:00

Guess what happens when the NCOs decide an officer is full of shit and shouldn’t be trusted? Either minimal effort or active sabotage.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2020 8:54 AM

2020-02-26T08:54:16-05:00

Officers make the over arching plan and we die for them

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Feb 26 at 2020 9:41 AM

2020-02-26T09:41:13-05:00

Wow, I thought since Valley Forge our Army knew the roles of officers, NCOs and the individual soldier. Go back and read what Von Steuben wrote on the role of First Sergeants. Officers are responsible for the collective and NCOs are responsible for the individual needs of their units. Yes, officers have the power of command and the law, plus responsibility. NCO are granted authority and are
Accountable to their officers.

Response by SGT James LaCombe made Feb 26 at 2020 10:02 AM

2020-02-26T10:02:28-05:00

It’s not any ranks Army.I saw it go from NCOs worked independently,When in Honduras I went and did things without an officer anywhere near.When I got back to Ft Bragg after about 3 months ,soldiers screwing up,all of a sudden we had to have a Lt. bring us to a signal sight ,field,Even though we new exactly where we had to go,so much we left ground rods in the ground because we new we would be there,if not me then tell the NCO where it was.At first didn’t like it but I realized that new crops of Lt and NCOs have to learn and experience at peace before real world missions.As far as power NO rank has power.Case in point,Cpt. Wants to be controlling or as E4 mafia says asshole,has Company doing shit just to prove he is the one in control he is god.When the lower enlisted get together with a few sprinkled E5 that command will be short lived.Ltc might relieve Cpt but what will you get next what will you be doing next what shit hole job or site will you be at?Could Be Why they are called a unit.

Response by SFC William Brown made Feb 26 at 2020 10:13 AM

2020-02-26T10:13:46-05:00

Officers lead and command. NCOs lead and manage. Effective NCOs are trusted and respected by their officers. Ineffective NCOs, not so much. This argument is relative. An NCOs authority is inherent, so that isn’t the issue. The issue is do you as an individual NCO have the sacred trust of your officers? Are they impressed with your ability to effectively lead, train, and take care of Soldiers with their best interests in mind? Are you confident that your officers sleep well at night knowing that you have their back as well as the soldiers under their command? Do your officers seek your wisdom and value your opinions? Lastly, officers have eyes and ears so they know what your Soldiers think of you and how you interact with them. If your one of those NCOs whom everyone (officers, NCOs, and Soldiers alike) knows your name and actively engages with you on some level based on real trust and supreme admiration, then have no worries because your authority is right where it’s supposed to be. If your one of those who doesn’t meet the criteria outlined above, then you are not living up to your end of the bargain. NCO authority isn’t the issue. Authority is inherent.

Response by SFC William Brown made Feb 26 at 2020 10:54 AM

2020-02-26T10:54:02-05:00

This isn’t true in any real sense. Our Army has the finest NCO corps in the world. Hands down, and it ain’t even close. There are very, very few armies in the world that are organized as our army is in that if our officer(s) go down, the mission doesn’t stop until the mission is complete. There’s a reason why we have NCO academies. There’s a reason why we have “command teams” from the PL and PSG level all the way up to the Chief of Staff and the SMA. It’s proven, it works, and it’s genius. And it’s one of the reasons why we kick ass everywhere we go. It’s not us (NCOs) and them (officers), it’s just us. ALL of us together kicking ass.

Response by 1SG Dale Cantrell made Feb 26 at 2020 11:31 AM

2020-02-26T11:31:41-05:00

PSG runs the troops and ARMY

Response by CPO Toby Carwile made Feb 26 at 2020 12:19 PM

2020-02-26T12:19:22-05:00

Officers run the Navy, Chiefs make the Navy run. That’s our take on the power. Our senior people are generally considered as CPO, SCPO and MCPO. Warships are unique and we do things that make a lot of officers cringe.

Response by PFC Ray Aquila made Feb 26 at 2020 4:05 PM

2020-02-26T16:05:02-05:00

Having been out of the Army 50+ years I believe things have changed. My recalculation in Nam. If a newbie officer made decisions contrary to the plan in question. Sergeant Major, E-7-E 9 would step in. After all Top has the experience. In our unit as in others. Sergeant Majors had at the very least been in WWll or Korea or both. The newbie officers were just coming out of 4-5 weeks of training in OCS. Not one ounce of experience. Our lives depended on experience. Not a bar, double bar, bronze cluster, etc. Regulations during a combat situation be damn. Thanks an awful lot, and thank God for all Sergeant Majors during the Nam conflict.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Feb 26 at 2020 6:34 PM

2020-02-26T18:34:14-05:00

Who told you this miserable opinion and why?

Response by CSM Danny S. made Feb 27 at 2020 11:18 AM

2020-02-27T11:18:00-05:00

This topic is like click bait, everyone has an opinion on it so they have to chime in. With that being said, we are talking about command positions not just officers. A staff officer doesn't have the same level of responsibility as a commander does. The Army has always had commanders and some form of NCO. All command positions have a Sr NCO with it. This isn't about power it is about influence. A good Sr NCO will ask for approval and then run with it. However if you don't have the commander or PLTLDR's respect you will never get anywhere. Commanders are responsible for everything the unit succeeds or fails at. So when a commander empowers his/her junior officers and NCOs it truly increases the chances of unit success. Strong NCOs take the approvals, works within his/her sphere of influence, and then put their spin on it. That is the part soldiers see. That is were respect is earned and then contributes to their sphere of influence. It isn't about who can give you an article 15 it's about doing your job, earning respect, and that may have the illusion of power to the soldiers on the outside looking in. So when soldiers see NCOs not doing their job and that leads to them getting less and less tasks. Then trying to get the job done with no respect leads to way more problems. Just my 2 cents.

Response by SFC Edward Bell made Feb 27 at 2020 11:27 AM

2020-02-27T11:27:05-05:00

The chain of command’s strongest link is E6/E7......

Response by CPT Robert Holden made Feb 27 at 2020 3:02 PM

2020-02-27T15:02:07-05:00

While officers will always have power. The NCOs will always be the backbone. None of us would be where we are without NCOs. Obviously I’m somewhat biased because I was an NCO before I went to OCS.

Response by 1SG Michael Hargis made Feb 28 at 2020 9:14 AM

2020-02-28T09:14:22-05:00

Let’s be honest here. We all know that it’s the senior SPC that runs alllll the behind the scenes stuff. LOL

Response by SPC(P) Brandon Jenkins made Feb 28 at 2020 1:36 PM

2020-02-28T13:36:33-05:00

Not sure any one soldier can answer that, because it's a very macro question. I would say that there are such things as officers' units, but the whole army? I don't know.

Response by LTC Lee Bouchard made Feb 29 at 2020 3:06 AM

2020-02-29T03:06:10-05:00

I agree with everyone who has responded to this post. I will add CSM's do not command anything but are the second most powerful right arm to the commander. They have tremendous influence over the NCO corps within the unit.

Another thought. Non-Commissioned (Officer) is just that!
Comments any one?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2020 10:09 AM

2020-03-22T10:09:16-04:00

Comments like that will come from Barack's lawyers, and empty barrels.
In today's era, it will come also from international agents with their own agenda and who are trying to stir up things up. I don't know what Army you're referring to and what you really mean by "power". The U.S. Army I enlisted back in 2001 was the same organized U.S. Army dated back 14 June 1775 with adaption to a new era. It is the same Army today. Nothing changed.
In other words, Enlisted Soldiers (NCOs) follow the Officers' orders. Enlisted (NCOs) never had a "power" per se to do anything else than follow lawful orders from an Officer. If you're referring to "NCO does whatever they want" as power; then, you're thinking of a "unorganized militia".
NCOs never had a "power" in term of acting in a particular way or influence, and so the Officers.
Since the beginning of time, Officers hold position of authority. They are responsible for tasks such as planning, developing, system to build and sustain combat readiness. That' is not power, but responsibilities (burden), and tasks. This is more likely another reason we have Army Regulation that sets responsibilities and policies; delegates authority and prescribe mandated procedures.
Senior Enlisted Leaders represent their officers, communicating the commander's intent and direction for the command to the enlisted workforce, while simultaneously representing the enlisted personnel's views and concerns to the commander.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made May 25 at 2020 1:24 AM

2020-05-25T01:24:23-04:00

The NCO is the Army.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Nov 7 at 2020 2:32 PM

2020-11-07T14:32:45-05:00

The military is run by its Sr NCOs, our LT could have played with a little spinner wheel all day and read comic books. Top ran the unit, and the Company Gunny ran the zoo, his word was law, screw up you went to Gunny not the LT. All our Sr NCOs were all Nam Combat Vets, the Officers not at all at least to the company level, above that I haven’t a clue. They were admin only for the most part, the functionality came from the enlisted ranks, we had E3 E4 Combat Vets, so they knew their shit.

Response by LTC Dan McDonald made Nov 18 at 2020 9:40 AM

2020-11-18T09:40:13-05:00

Thank you Col Wilson. Well said. I served from 1973 to 2012. This so called issue has been around for as long as we have had an army. NCO.s make it all happen. Officers get relieved and ruin there career chances when it doesn't. Been on both sides of the issue. It really is a no brainer. Something for each generation to deal with and accept. Steel on Target

Response by LTC Dan McDonald made Nov 18 at 2020 9:41 AM

2020-11-18T09:41:16-05:00

Sorry Col Williams. Got your name wrong

Response by CPT Jose A “Tony” Fernandez made Nov 18 at 2020 11:19 PM

2020-11-18T23:19:25-05:00

Enlisted men and woman are the backbone of the ARMY. That will always be the case. I learned about leadership while I was an Enlisted Soldier. What an honor! For one cannot be a good leader unless you have been a good follower! It is not sustainable for a force where everyone is the chief. Some responsible body must be the follower whom will take tomorrow’s leadership roles.

Response by PO1 John Crafton made Oct 29 at 2021 4:46 PM

2021-10-29T16:46:48-04:00

Power? What kind of power are you talking about? Senior officers have their own power over their own area of responsibility. Junior officers also have power over their own. And yes, NCOs have power as well.

Junior officers can, should, and do defer to senior NCOs when appropriate. This hasn't changed, from what I've heard.

Yes, it's frustrating when an NCO doesn't seem to have much affect on decision-making - especially when those decision affect unit readiness and cohesion; however, that kind of "power" is cultivated within a given command. If the NCO's mess is strong as a unit, the officers will gladly utilize their expertise and experience when appropriate.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Oct 29 at 2021 5:05 PM

2021-10-29T17:05:21-04:00

another line from that poem:
An' last, a Colour Sergeant, as such to be obeyed,
'E schools 'is men at cricket, 'e tells 'em on parade;
They sees 'I'm quick an' 'andy, uncommon set 'an smart,
An' so 'e talks to orficers which 'ave the Core at 'eart.

Response by LTC Lane Altenbaumer made Oct 30 at 2021 8:33 AM

2021-10-30T08:33:28-04:00

In 1981 at Fort Lewis, right before I went to OCS, 2nd Bat had a battalion inspection and the Sargent Major told a Captain that he needed a haircut. The Captain replied that when that star jumps out of his stripes and lands on his shoulder, he can tell him he needed a haircut. That was an 0700 inspection and the Captain was gone by 1400.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 18 at 2024 5:16 PM

2024-03-18T17:16:27-04:00

I realize this is old, but wow, whoever wrote it sure picked the wrong guy to illustrate the point.

As for the statement, hell no, NCOs have not lost anything. Individual NCOs give up there personal power no one userps it. Can Officers restrict some authorities provided by the commanding officer, yup, I have seen the attempt I never witnessed a positive outcome for the Officer. How in the hell do three officers manage a Company-Battery of over 100, that's too damn funny.