Is Unit MTOE Dependent on Rank or Number of Personnel?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 06:55:30 -0500

I did some of my own research, but could not find anything in the regulation. Essentially, is the MTOE really based on rank, or just raw number of personnel in a platoon? I'm worried that as a new E-5 (and bringing my platoon now to one more than our MTOE'd E-5 slots) that I will be slotted down instead of come down on orders, reflecting poorly on my NCOER (or so I've heard).

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2020 6:56 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 06:56:48 -0500

To describe it a little better: we have too many E-5s for our MTOE, but we still have the number of raw personnel we need to be at full strength on our MTOE (in terms of bodies only). Is the MTOE based on each rank specifically or only on the total number of Soldiers in a platoon?

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2020 7:30 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 07:30:18 -0500

Both, it's a number of Soldiers by rank, special qualifications, clearance level, etc..
FMSweb.fms.army.mil Log into there and you can view your unit's MTOE and see it all

Response by CSM Chuck Stafford made Nov 18 at 2020 7:45 AM

CSM Chuck Stafford — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 07:45:26 -0500

The MTOE is the combination of both metrics needed to get the organization's mission accomplished. That said, if you are worried about your NCOER, 1) voice your concerns to/through your chain of command; you may get a leadership position, you may convince them to get an inter-division swap 2) start looking for additional duties to develop your leadership skills and set yourself above your peers. 3) Do the best job you can in your current position, the cream rises to the top as they say. Good Luck

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Nov 18 at 2020 9:05 AM

MAJ Javier Rivera — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 09:05:44 -0500

Ok, to answer your original question:

The MTOE is designed to man and equip a unit in a perfect situation. But then reality hits... Req v.s. Auth. v.s. Reality. You get it, right?

Then some organization, for whatever reason, try to farm Soldiers and keep them rather than encourage their professional development by allow them more exposure to different experiences.

Now, I’m the meantime, like other have stated, seek responsibilities within your organization and proof your value to it. As the junior NCO, must likely you might be one of the last to leave (not always the case) so be very diplomatic on your day to day business. And just for reference, take a glimpse to AR 71-32 so you can get a headache on all things MTOE/TDA!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2020 1:21 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 13:21:25 -0500

The MTOE is what a unit can be assigned to do the Mission (soldiers and equipment). It doesn't stop the unit from getting extra or other stuff "not" on the MTOE, but it is surely used to LIMIT what a unit can ask for. If it's not an MTOE approved item or personnel then chances are low.

I would expect you to be double slotted in the grade and MOS for which you are qualified, and not put in a different slot for the sake of filling the slot. To me that indicates someone is focusing too much on matching numbers no one really cares about (because rarely is everything filled with the correct personnel and equipment).

Now, games are played with the UMR, and knowledgeable command staff put their trouble soldiers in double or triple slots if they can, hoping personnel management will move them out to fill vacancies they are qualified for elsewhere.

As far as an NCOER goes, I don't think anyone is auditing your UMR slot against what is documented on your NCOER. In fact, if you wanted, you could probably write your NCOER word for word. Trust me, if you expect your rater to write your NCOER from scratch you're going to get a very generic one at best.

***
You are on the right path with trying to understand the MTOE. If you can get your hands on the UMR and match it against the MTOE then you are cooking with fire.

For example, if you want a certain school or training, and those slots for your MOS require said training, and you see no one on the UMR holds those credentials you can make an argument to your chain of command to send you to such school, and with it being an MTOE requirement chances are good it will get approved and funded.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Nov 18 at 2020 2:57 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:57:48 -0500

The MTOE says exactly How many people by Rank/MOS are needed to operate the unit. Funding is based on the MTOE and OPS environment. Also remember the rule of 2 up, 1down- E5 could be in a E7 slot or an E4 slot or in between. OPS environment also differs between units of same type. Leg IN is at one level, 82 Div IN units and the div, are manned at 110% strength, or were.

Response by SGT Herbert Bollum made Nov 18 at 2020 7:56 PM

SGT Herbert Bollum — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:56:53 -0500

I returned from Korea as an E-5 and was slated to go to DS / GS shop. I called my old unit and they pulled some strings to get me reassigned so that I would be their repairman and they slotted me (I am sure) as the section SGT. Only called for an E-4 for repairman but I filled both positions.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2020 9:14 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 21:14:26 -0500

Fmsweb.army.mil and see for yourself. MTOE is how many and what kind of psx tje Army thinks is necessary for the unit to accomplish their METLs. Therefore MTOE is raw numbers and rank. Sure, a rifle plt needs 39 pax, but it doesnt need 39 SFCs. MTOEs also dictate what skills those personnel should have in the form of ASIs and SQIs.
In reference to NCOERs your duty title and duty MOS should be from whatever paragraph and line number you are slotted against in MTOE. You can work down one skill level but it is not preferred. Your leadership should be trying to find you another PLT with a SGT shortage. Back in the day all new SGTs moved PLTs, SSGs/Company, and SFC/Battalions.

Response by MSG Randall Rankin made Nov 20 at 2020 7:24 AM

MSG Randall Rankin — Fri, 20 Nov 2020 07:24:11 -0500

Other way around, the MTOE states the positions and grades. You can look all that up on FMSWeb.

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Jun 27 at 2022 5:58 PM

MSG Thomas Currie — Mon, 27 Jun 2022 17:58:03 -0400

The question was posted a bit over a year ago, so I'm sure SGT George already has his problem solved, but I'll address the question because I'm sure someone else has a similar problem or will have a similar problem soon...

The MTOE isn't "dependent" on anything in the unit -- it is the source document that says what personnel and equipment a unit needs to perform its mission and what personnel and equipment the unit is authorized to have.

There are policies about how the MTOE is developed but NO ONE understands those policies without years of working with them (and by the time anyone understands the rules, someone at the top who also doesn't understand the rules will decide to change those rules). So far as you are concerned, the MTOE is carved in stone and handed down from on high.

What you are concerned about isn't the MTOE but how the unit slots you within its authorized positions. IF you are being promoted or were just promoted, and the unit doesn't have an authorized position for your new rank, there are several possibilities:
1. The unit can leave you in your current E4 slot which will result in the Unit Manning Report having a "Grade Unequal" notation (1SGs and PSNCOs both hate any of those remarks on the UMR, so this is not a popular choice, and will almost always result someone finding a valid slot for you before the MACOM personnel office steps in to reassign you).
2. The unit can report you as Excess, in which case each layer above your unit will be looking for a valid slot for you.
3. The unit can slot you OR ANY OTHER E5 into another slot to open an E5 position for you. The most common approach would be to slot a more senior E5 into some E6 slot. (Which might involve a domino effect if they don't have a vacancy at the E5 or E6 level)

Overall it is rare for any unit to have all its slots filled. The standard is normally that you can be slotted "two up or one down" -- which is to say that an E5 ought to be carried against a slot calling for an E5, or E6, or E7, or E4.

If you are slotted below your actual grade, every personnel office above your unit will be looking at you as being available to fill whatever vacancy they have at your grade. I can guarantee you that if the Army just promoted you to E5, there is a vacant E5 slot in your MOS available somewhere, and I would be very surprised if there isn't a valid E5 vacancy in your MOS somewhere in your unit, or the next level above, etc. This rarely happens within the main MOS for a unit, but can happen for one of the specialty fields where there is only one or two slots in that MOS in a Battalion or Brigade.

The kind of situation you described sometimes occurs because a unit is reporting a senior NCO slot as "Vacant" while using some junior NCO to perform the duties without getting credit for it. This largely occurs because units don't understand the personnel system and want to keep the senior NCO slot vacant thinking that the need to keep the slot open to get anyone to fill the slot. What happens is that a unit will have an E7 vacancy with some E6 actually doing the job without getting credit for it. That keeps the E6 slot filled by the E6 even though some E5 is actually doing the E6 job without getting credit for it.