Is War really Hell, or is it worse?

CW2 Joseph Evans — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 20:54:54 -0400

M*A*S*H was one of those TV series that did a fabulous job of keeping America's interest for many years. There were a lot of really great concepts that have come out of the series through its wit and writing.

My thought for the day revolves around the loss of innocence in war. There are UAV pilots responsible for Battle Damage Assessments after the drone strikes that are suffering PTSD from the realization that many of their missions resulted in the deaths of children. There are families that are broken forever, fathers, husbands, sons, mothers, daughters, wives, that will not be coming home and many that will never be the person that left.

What are your thoughts?
Is a victory worth the victims?

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 21 at 2015 12:42 AM

COL Charles Williams — Sat, 21 Mar 2015 00:42:02 -0400

I have been to war, too many times, and I have not been to hell, so I can't really opine.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Mar 21 at 2015 2:16 AM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Sat, 21 Mar 2015 02:16:23 -0400

I fought alongside many of our countries greatest Soldiers and Marines that lost their lives way too early in combat operations. Many of the survivors remained right there in the fight even though we had left the "hostile fire" area....several have committed suicide which I believe is because they could no longer deal with the painful memories and thoughts of those combat operations.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2015 2:54 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Mar 2015 02:54:21 -0400

It takes a very unique human being to walk away from war mentally unscathed. It is likely that uniqueness was present long before they went to war. It is the next biggest price we pay next to death for our country/beliefs. Majority of Soldiers fail to understand exactly what their job entails until they deploy and actually do it, call it de-sensitizing or whatever you like but, it is a reality hidden with promises of college money, skill training, "adventure" and travel.

As far as hell goes, I will answer that when I get there.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 21 at 2015 7:35 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Sat, 21 Mar 2015 07:35:47 -0400

So long as we continue our practice of categorizing ourselves by race, creed, religion, country, nationality, etc... there will always be war. It's much easier to attack "other" for resources than it is to attack someone you consider family/friends/partners. Until humanity ignores all the imaginary and meaningless labels and works together, war is easier than partnership...

Response by COL Ted Mc made Mar 21 at 2015 1:34 PM

COL Ted Mc — Sat, 21 Mar 2015 13:34:59 -0400

I'm sorry but the question is meaningless.

Or, at least not one to which a real answer can be formulated since both "war" and "hell" are highly individualized.

From a theological perspective, if I go to Hell I stand a chance of going to War but no chance of going to Heaven. However, if I go to War I stand a chance of going to Hell AND a chance of going to Heaven. THEREFORE, from a theological perspective "War" is preferable to "Hell".

From a personal perspective, never having been to Hell I can't compare it to War just as never having been pregnant I can't compare it to being a parent.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Mar 21 at 2015 3:24 PM

LCpl Mark Lefler — Sat, 21 Mar 2015 15:24:39 -0400

I'm not a combat vet so I'm not answering with any thought that I know what I'm talking about, but the logic of the MASH quote seems pretty sound to me.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2015 12:29 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 12:29:03 -0400

Death is said oneside we kill our enemy and I like think they deserve it. However I truly feel sad that some has too die. I never celebrate the death of another. The death of Saddam and Bin Laden weren't a call for celebration. Some may argue weather their death was warranted but that is not what I am saying. I would have shot them if ROE said I could and if I had the chance. As for celebrating their death I would not have. The matter of guilt is justice but death in all case is a said fact of life and in some cases absolutely necessary. War is where we come face to face with this necessity, combined with the fact good people will die war sucks.

However, I felt a desire to fight and will do so at the drop of a hate. I am no longer afraid of death but I love life. I am filled with an internal conflict that is between justice and death. I see it as burden of service. War is a paradox. But one thing is clear if someone tries to kill me or my comrades, I will move through proceeded by aweful death and destruction and I will love every minute of it. Strange and I will never be "normal" but maybe I never was.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2015 12:13 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Mar 2015 00:13:45 -0400

In many ways I identify with Hawkeye. I feel the collateral damage to our soldiers and their families and the families of the innocent. As a Meteorologist I was not on the front lines of any conflict but the conflict for us was the Cold War. We were close at Ramstein a couple of times of being in the theatre of armageddon, with nukes, nerve agents and terrorist attacks. It saddens me of the German families East and West that were separated from loved ones and how the breaking of the wall was and is a tangible reminder of what can be and what was.

So this war now is against for the large part invisible foes with no regard for collateral damage (theirs and ours) so that kind of war threatens the world and sadly crazy generals can get fat off of young men's blood. I cannot answer this question because of the complexity of the question and some of the points by Hawkeye.

As Air Force we would go to the day room and watch this show together, kind of like a family with a common objective in a time when we were treated as lowlifes. That kind of mindset permeated the forces with politicians and liberals were the best and the brightest and I scoff at that inanity. Hyperbole has replaced pride in our nation. I for one am sick of it. Sick of battles across the world, sick of people dying needlessly and sad that millions of Jews died while the world played politics. vis-a-vis, The White Papers. Honor does matter and war may be a kind of hell and the rest semantics.

Response by SGT Tyler G. made Mar 23 at 2015 2:54 AM

SGT Tyler G. — Mon, 23 Mar 2015 02:54:46 -0400

How about all of the above? War is one of the worst concepts ever conceived of, hell doesn't exist, war shouldn't exist, and we definitely need to do a better job of assessing what is worth the loss of innocence.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2015 3:20 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Mar 2015 03:20:00 -0400

It's a sad, sad world we live in, torn by extremists, ignoranuses, and misleads. Yes, the quote in the picture is great. If we could only mass-distribute it around the world, especially into the hands of extremist groups.

The biggest challenges however are tracking and targeting them, and unfortunately there are too many of them scattered all around the world with high concentrations in the Middle East and Northern Africa. But our job as peace seeking Americans is NEVER STOP OR GIVE UP. We might not get them all, but surely many innocent victims out there appreciate our efforts in not giving up on them.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Mar 23 at 2015 8:27 AM

Capt Richard I P. — Mon, 23 Mar 2015 08:27:54 -0400

Great quote.

War is a pretty good example of the Trilema wrongly attributed to Epicurus (and actually appearing in writing first in a work by Sextus Empiricus):

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Mar 23 at 2015 9:56 AM

SGT Ben Keen — Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:56:47 -0400

I think the writers on M*A*S*H had a great skill in coming up with interesting ways to showcase of the issues Service Members face while at war. Think of the characters they used. People back home could easily relate to them. The in bodied some of the very same characteristics that we still see today. The Officer coming up on retirement, the gun-ho Officer trying to advance their career, someone from a long line of successful family members, a young scared kid trying to become a man while still holding on to his teddy bear and someone trying by all means possible to get out only to realize some of the good that the military did for him and ended up staying in the one place he spent years trying to get out of. Then there's Hawkeye. Hawkeye was often what I would consider "the voice of the public thought". He was the one that said what probably a lot of people were thinking.

The Korean War has gone down in history as the "Forgotten War"; sandwiched between the heroic victory over Europe and Asia and the insanity of Vietnam. Yet, the actions taken over there on those frozen hill tops where many of us have been to are nothing more than just as heroic as D-Day.

Is War Hell or is it worse than Hell? That's a hard question to answer. Does the impact on the civilian population hurt, sure does. Do we go in specifically targeting women and children? In my time in combat we didn't. But look back throughout all of history. From when the first rock was thrown in anger to laser guided bombs that can be sent through a window, innocents have always been a factor. Daily, we see on the news bodies lined up. Women, children, the elderly are the ones the News features their bodies flooding the TVs of those of us not there.

Should war exist? No it should but it will. War is one of those things that humans seem to not live without for better or for worse.

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made Mar 23 at 2015 11:33 AM

PO3 Steven Sherrill — Mon, 23 Mar 2015 11:33:20 -0400

The problem with the question is that it is subjective on both sides of the question. What is the individual's view of war, and what is the individual's concept of Hel? I have never been to war so I do not know first hand about the horror of war. I have seen the aftermath in the PTSD related issues that many veterans face upon their return home.
What I think is more worrisome is the circumstances under which a politician is willing to send people to fight in a war. It is sad that throughout history, religion is the largest killer of people. It is supposed to be the sanctuary that keeps our spirit guided, not the catalyst for slaughtering our fellow man.
Wars have been fought over resources since time began. From wars over farmland to wars over oil, it is all about you have it, I want it, let's fight for it.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Mar 23 at 2015 9:54 PM

Cpl Jeff N. — Mon, 23 Mar 2015 21:54:29 -0400

War is war, hell is hell. I suspect eternal torment with the beast might be more than most of us would want to endure. War is ugly but temporal and like all other things of this world can be overcome. If not here, then eternally. Eternal damnation never ends. I would try to avoid that.

Is a victory worth the victims? It depends on how you define victory and victims I guess. You could reverse the question and ask Is a loss worth the victims? What would the price of losing be? Would we want to bear it?

Response by TSgt Tim (lj) Littlejohn made Mar 23 at 2015 9:57 PM

TSgt Tim (lj) Littlejohn — Mon, 23 Mar 2015 21:57:02 -0400

Hell is worse than war, I pray none of us go there to find out!

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2015 7:50 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 07:50:45 -0400

By true definition, war as we know it is nothing compared to hell. Speaking as a Christian and not a soldier, i will take war anyday! :)

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Mar 25 at 2015 2:30 PM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Wed, 25 Mar 2015 14:30:11 -0400

Clearly there are things that are worse than war. As I mentioned on another post, there are people in this medium who have been taken captive, tortured and worse. Consider the case of the guy who held three women captive in his house for decades. That wasn't war, but it sure was hell.

It is interesting to see that UAV pilots have PTSD from doing BDA. That is not something I would have thought of, but I can see it.

War certainly takes away innocence. Further, the more times one is deployed down range, and the more violence one experiences, the more acclimated to it. We can see folks with one tour suffering far worse PTSD than folks with 8 tours.

Every human responds differently to the stimuli from the hormones created in the pituitary and other endocrine organs. At a biological level, this informs the emotional responses people have. As noted by Charles Hoge (Col MC USA Ret) in his book Once a Warrior Always a Warrior, http://amzn.to/1LYUp7I the same adrenaline responses that keep you alive in combat cause you to become sick on returning home.

The human mind has a great capacity for good and a great capacity for evil. In Jewish theology this battle between the "good inclination" and the "evil inclination" keeps us alive. Without the evil inclination, our tradition teaches that we wouldn't start a business, have children, etc.

What makes us human, in the end, then, is our ability to harness our evil inclination and use it for good. Sadly, far too many people in history have not learned how to do that.

Jewish tradition teaches "Who is a mighty person? One who conquers his/her evil inclination."

I wish everyone on this planet success towards that goal...

Once a Warrior--Always a Warrior: Navigating The Transition From Combat To Home--Including Combat...

Once a Warrior--Always a Warrior: Navigating The Transition From Combat To Home--Including Combat Stress, Ptsd, And Mtbi [Charles Hoge] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The essential handbook for anyone who has ever returned from a war zone

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2015 2:57 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Mar 2015 14:57:06 -0400

And since MASH was brought up, listen to the words for the theme song and you can probably see the connection between the Servicemember and suicide. It may be the way that some of us deal with the hell that comes from war.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 22 at 2015 2:47 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 14:47:26 -0400

There is hell on earth. Mankind is capable of conducting horrific torture and killings.

Response by LCpl Daniel Mcenespy made Feb 3 at 2017 12:52 AM

LCpl Daniel Mcenespy — Fri, 03 Feb 2017 00:52:57 -0500

Never thought on it much. Training takes over immediately. That's also why we drill constantly. If you have ever come under fire......You know,and it finally becomes clear. And your thankful.

Response by LTC Stephan Porter made Jun 17 at 2018 9:48 AM

LTC Stephan Porter — Sun, 17 Jun 2018 09:48:01 -0400

I agree with Hawkeye (in many things...lots of wisdom in that show)