Is Water a "Basic Human Right" that should be "Free"?

SSG Gerhard S. — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 08:46:37 -0400

The Detroit area water and sewer department services the entire Metro Detroit area as well as a great number of suburban communities in Wayne, Oakalnd and Macomb Counties. It has been determined that approximately HALF of Detroit City Residents do not pay their water bills, and the City of Highland Park has admitted to not even sending out water bills any more bacause "nobody pays them anyway". Meanwhile the other communities ARE paying their water bills, and are now expected to pick up the slack for those who aren't. Thoughts?

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jul 24 at 2014 8:56 AM

LTC Paul Labrador — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 08:56:18 -0400

Shut their water off to their homes. Make a public access water point in certain locations in the city, and if they don't want to pay for water, they can go to the water point and haul it back to their house.

Response by SSG Stewart Boner made Jul 24 at 2014 9:40 AM

SSG Stewart Boner — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 09:40:02 -0400

To answer your initial question, NO, it's not a basic human right. It's a basic human need. However, I do believe it should be "Free". Not free in the sense that it's delivered directly to you without a cost, but the water itself should be free. The delivery mechanism costs money if you want it run directly into your house.
The biggest issue I see has come from a long chain of events over the course of time in many of these cities. Depending on what city you are being "billed" by, people are not paying for the water itself. They are paying the sewage fee on it based on the total amount of water used. The problem I see is that, as running water has now been shut off, we now have other issues. Human waste, lack of proper food prep., personal hygiene and the list goes on. The simple fact that cities "stopped" sending bills because people don't pay them anyway is insane. And Detroit..........That's all because they cannot use their Bridge card to pay bills......or can they.......Taco Bell takes it.
All in all, it's a pretty sad state of affairs that Detroit has turned into a self-perpetuating spiral of destruction and desolation.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2014 9:57 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 09:57:33 -0400

To answer your question.... Yes it should be free.

The filtration and sterilization costs money though, and that should not be free.

People who choose not to pay their bills should get water piped straight from a river or stream (unfiltered/untreated) and see how long it takes them to start paying their water bill for decent water again.

Some people's priorities in life really make me question how much longer the human race will make it.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2014 12:18 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 12:18:01 -0400

My water bills are more than my utility bills, water is certainly not free here in SoCal. However I do remember living in Virginia and not having to pay for water. It came as a shock to me having grown up in California. For me it is a head scratcher, because if you live where the water is, then it is essentially free if you want to go get it, as has been expressed. However, here there is no water to go get. We have to have water piped in from neighboring states as quite a cost. I do not think any municipality would be able to afford to provide water gratis under those circumstances. I guess I would have to say that free water is a perk for not living in paradise.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2014 12:46 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 12:46:51 -0400

Let’s be clear about the distinction between water and the infrastructure required to get it to your tap. Water is free. Anyone is welcome to go down to the river and fill their buckets. It’s the infrastructure of moving, filtering, and treating it that costs money, just like any other city-supplied service.

Response by SSG John Bacon made Jul 24 at 2014 1:10 PM

SSG John Bacon — Thu, 24 Jul 2014 13:10:30 -0400

That's kind of like asking if Food is a "basic human right" yes it is but you have the option of foraging for it in the forests or going to the supermarket. You pay for convenience. You can grow it yourself, just as you can dig your own well for water.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2014 12:19 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Jul 2014 12:19:04 -0400

I won't get into the argument about whether water is free or not. Obtaining water has been an issue for millenia. Nations have and continue to go to war over it. You may label it whatever you want - the obtaining of water is never free.

The infrastructure of a good water system is expensive to maintain. The cities and towns listed at the start of this thread are providing a service for those who do not deserve it and that should be discontinued.

There are certain things that should be provided for our people - clean air, clean water are two that come to mind immediately. However, that does NOT mean we should pipe the water to the individual homes and have that family not participate in paying for the privilege. Having water/sewage/electricity/cable/telephone delivered to your home is a PRIVILEGE not a right. Townships used to have a common well people would get their water from. Back in the day, if you wanted to participate in the largess of the township (i.e. - use of the well) you had to provide something in return. Such expectations are a part of being part of the community. Those opting to NOT participate in the community were eventually kicked out of the community and left outside the protected area of the township.

Maybe it's time we consider going back to basics........

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made Jul 25 at 2014 12:23 PM

CMDCM Gene Treants — Fri, 25 Jul 2014 12:23:46 -0400

Even though I have a well and get "free" water, I had to pay for the drilling, plumbing, and the electricity to run the pump.

TANSTASFL! (There Ain't No Such Thing As a Free Lunch - Heinlein - no plagiarism - correctly attributed. LOL In case you are following that thread.)

Response by COL Eric Holmes made Jul 25 at 2014 2:11 PM

COL Eric Holmes — Fri, 25 Jul 2014 14:11:46 -0400

Rights as defined by our constitution are based on idea that the government can't take these away from anyone. If water is a right then the government can take water away from you. So if you had a well then the government couldn't shut it down. However, our Constitution doesn't define water as a right. What it does define as a right is that the government can't take from you without due process. So if people think water or healthcare or anything else is a right, then this "right" violates the real rights of people whose money is taken from them.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2014 6:35 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Jul 2014 18:35:46 -0400

I hate to say this, and will probably be down-voted, but the concept of "human rights", in practice, doesn't exist.
In order for the term "right" to apply, we have to acknowledge that someone, somewhere must allow for it, or else we wouldn't need the term at all.
We humans don't have the right to exist at all. We just...are. We can appeal to the consciences of other humans, but if those other humans choose to say, murder us, we cease to exist. A "right" is something that is granted to us by other people who have the power to take it away.
I didn't mean to be philosophical, but every time I see the terms "human rights" it bothers me. It bothers me because it's an illusion.
Should people receive free water? Maybe. However, they do not necessarily have a "right" to water, simply because they are human. Unless the majority of people grant them this free water, I have to say that they are owed nothing. Sorry.

Response by SFC Douglas Eshenbaugh made Jul 27 at 2014 2:30 AM

SFC Douglas Eshenbaugh — Sun, 27 Jul 2014 02:30:26 -0400

Sewer is about the only thing I say should be free-ish (understanding that nothing in life is free). Water can be delivered either by pipe like we do primary in the US or by truck like they do where I am currently. If you turn off water that comes in by pipe there is no way to stop them from trucking in their own water. However that water has to go somewhere once consumed. If you turn off the sewer (which would be a nightmare given that most sewer systems are gravity based until the first lift station) then you will create an environmental disaster area. So for the greater good of the community you need to leave the sewer available.

Response by SSgt Shannon Hoxie made Jul 30 at 2014 2:18 PM

SSgt Shannon Hoxie — Wed, 30 Jul 2014 14:18:26 -0400

Water is in itself is a basic right. Without water all life will come to an end. Same as air. To have it "delivered" to you is something else. After all you have the option to turn your water on and off (the service that is) at any time.

The United States unlike most countries does not have public fountains where you can go and get your water. If this was the case I wonder how many people (obviously the poor would) would utilize public fountains.

Another thing to consider about water is that we use water to remove waste from our dwellings. Everything from human waste to non-human waste. And again the United States does not provide public restrooms in quantity like other nations do.

In regards to human waste that brings up a completely different and potentially dangerous situation when water is not available.

Unfortunately in order to make water a basic right in this country would mean a new tax and more regulation. Im not for that.

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Aug 23 at 2014 9:12 AM

MAJ Javier Rivera — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 09:12:54 -0400

Water is free, if you go and get it by the buckets. In the other hand, if you want it delivered to your home, then it has a cost. And that is not counting the cost of making it potable!

Response by SGT Richard H. made Sep 2 at 2014 12:58 PM

SGT Richard H. — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 12:58:00 -0400

Water probably IS a basic human right. HOWEVER, having someone acquire it, treat it to make it potable, and pump it to your house is NOT.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2014 5:20 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:20:50 -0500

I grew up in the country. I've drunk water from a spring behind the house, I've drunk water from a hand pounded sand point. Now I live in town. It really does rub my fur the wrong way to PAY for water. However that's a choice I've made. A city has to have public infrastructure or it's just a slum, and somebody has to pay for it. Either the residents do, or they bum it off on the rest of us.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Dec 20 at 2014 11:52 AM

SSG Tim Everett — Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:52:04 -0500

We pay for the infrastructure, not the water itself. I have a house in the low-country area of SC, and I do mean country. It has two wells on it (I paid to have a second one dug). The main one is hooked up to the house. The second one, the older one, I've now reconfigured with a manual pump. Yeah, like on Little House on the Prairie. Reason being: if the power goes out during hurricane season, I've got water.

When I was a wee lad, I remember the water quality in my hometown of Mt. Pleasant being so bad that people were encouraged to take water jugs and fill it up at a local station. So that's what we did, periodically.

Now I also have a house in the city, in Atlanta. I pay my water bill because A.) I can afford to, and B.) I agree with paying for the infrastructure. Having said all that, once every few months I haul a trailer full of empty milk jugs out to Cave Springs GA, NW of the city, and I spend a few hours filling up jugs from a fresh-water source right out of the ground. I haul it all back to my garage and use that any time I want to cook, make coffee, drink water, etc. And if we lose power, I've got a gas stove that will heat it right up.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2014 3:49 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Dec 2014 15:49:44 -0500

Ridiculous, this is infrastructure. Infrastructure costs money to run, repair and Maintain, while I do not think it should be massively profitable, there is a cost. Nobody rides for free. Freedom isn't free, why should water be.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 10:39 AM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 10:39:20 -0500

Wow! This news is coming in right on time for me. I'm relocating to the McComb area the beginning of March. I haven't found a home yet, but if this affects my water bill I may be looking for a house somewhere out of that area. Thanks so much for sharing!

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 4:56 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 16:56:48 -0500

If anyone has every walked through a water treatment facility then they would change their mind. Your not paying for the water you are paying for the cleaning treatment of the water. They should let those residents go with out clean water and just recycle the water that they are using. I bet they will change their tune. Furthermore, treatment of water creates jobs. People just don't think beyond themselves sometimes.

Response by LTC Joseph Gross made Dec 22 at 2014 4:44 AM

LTC Joseph Gross — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 04:44:22 -0500

If we may return to the meaning of the word "right". If you must take from one person in order to give to another person then you are not talking about a right, you are talking about an entitlement. So this question is flawed. If you look at the Bill of Rights you will see that none of them require anything from the government. You have a right to bear arms. That doesn't mean anyone has to give you a weapon, it simply means the government can't restrict your carry. You have the right to free speech. No one has to buy you a soap box but no one can shut you up. These are rights. Healthcare is not a right. It costs money and that means you have to take from one to give to another. The same with water.

We're in the middle of a bailout for Detroit. That means the rest of the country is paying so Detroit can exist and have water. Not my problem.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 5:35 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 17:35:18 -0500

I believe that it's something that should be attainable by anyone especially for people with children. I understand it takes money to make these things work but it's work having empathy towards the vulnerable.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2015 11:08 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 11:08:43 -0500

No one can have a right to a material good. Someone has to provide that good, which is labor. Claiming that good as a right, is to also claim the labor to provide it. Claiming the labor of another is slavery.

Response by CSM David Heidke made Jan 2 at 2015 11:32 AM

CSM David Heidke — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 11:32:45 -0500

Water is free... delivery is not.

Shut them off and tell them where the spigot is, they can carry buckets home to flush their BS.

Response by SGT Charles Vernier made Jan 2 at 2015 11:49 AM

SGT Charles Vernier — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 11:49:53 -0500

"... that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Yes life can be taken away, along with liberty, and you can perhaps be deprived of the pursuit of happiness. These rights don't necessarily come from the government. A public utility such as a water system is usually operated by the local government for the benefit of the community. You pay a bill, which funds the operation, upkeep, and future improvements of the system. There is a cost associated with operating the system, and if costs aren't met then the whole system could eventually collapse from lack of upkeep. Based on that knowledge municipal water isn't a "right" but rather a privilege of living in an area with a community water system. As for those on wells and springs you know that you have your own costs and or labor associated with providing your own water.

Response by SPC Christopher Morehouse made Jan 2 at 2015 1:36 PM

SPC Christopher Morehouse — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 13:36:36 -0500

Nothing in this world is free. Nothing.

Response by PVT Dominique Stewart made Jan 19 at 2015 8:51 AM

PVT Dominique Stewart — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 08:51:57 -0500

Yes. It should be free

Response by CW5 Jim Steddum made Jan 19 at 2015 1:31 PM

CW5 Jim Steddum — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 13:31:10 -0500

I live near Fort Rucker and forgot to pay a water bill one month... they shut it off and then charged a $29 reconnection fee the next day for a $30 bill.

I feel for the folks that live there, but, if it really came down to it I would find a way to either pay the bill or collect my own water (unless that is illegal nowadays).

But, no... it should not be free... and if it is, it will be collected in taxes. Someone has to pay for the infrastructure and manpower.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2015 2:46 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 14:46:21 -0500

The most frustrating thing to hear as a water chemist is that water is cheap. Clean water is no cheap, the current value of water is believed to be low because of pricing based on politics. Water is not a right, movement and treatment of water has a high cost.

Response by SGT Steve Oakes made Jan 19 at 2015 6:58 PM

SGT Steve Oakes — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 18:58:39 -0500

I think it should be covered in property taxes. I realize that will make my taxes go up and I am OK with that. As long as the increase is not a lot more than the water bill I am currently paying.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Jan 19 at 2015 7:11 PM

SPC(P) Jay Heenan — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 19:11:26 -0500

Hmmm, if they are receiving government assistance, take the amount out of their checks. If they are not, then I would say that LTC Paul Labrador listed the best idea.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 8:51 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 08:51:42 -0500

lived in Detroit (7 mile and Van Dyke) for over 12 years, here are my 2 cents. There are many PPl that have gone through a rough patch especially with the dying automotive industry in the area. I personally dont think water should be free or consider it basic human entitlement. For one, how will it measured? what's to stop the free loaders from taking 45 minute showers? 2, who will pick up the tab? there are enough ppl on assistance living better than those doing the right thing because they have under the table jobs and side hustles.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 11:50 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 11:50:48 -0500

Water and access to clean drinking water should be a "human right" but it shouldn't e free. As everything in this world costs. Be it maintaining pipeline infrastructure to the actual water plant. So to have access to that everyone should pay so the facilities can be maintained. I'm pretty sure it's about that simple.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Jan 20 at 2015 11:46 PM

Sgt Packy Flickinger — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 23:46:08 -0500

Water is a basic human right. It is free! However, having it purified and delivered to your home is NOT. You want free water, grab some buckets and head to the lake.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Jan 20 at 2015 11:48 PM

Sgt Packy Flickinger — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 23:48:58 -0500

Key word, "Detroit". Need we say more!!

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2015 9:33 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Jan 2015 09:33:52 -0500

While water itself is free, unless the people not paying the bills are maintaining the systems to get the water cleaned and pumped to their home they need to pay. Otherwise they can get their water turned off. While this sounds sort of harsh, the fact that clean water is always available at your home is the result of a lot of hard work by a lot of people. Those people need to get paid to live and the best way to do that is for the people receiving the service to provide the money.

Response by SGT Marvin "Dave" Bigham made Jan 21 at 2015 12:46 PM

SGT Marvin "Dave" Bigham — Wed, 21 Jan 2015 12:46:18 -0500

While I can't stomach misuse of social systems, some folks cannot pay all the bills they have to live as they were just a few years ago. HOWEVER, there are profit margins built into the infrastructure of any business or operation. Unless they apply and are APPROVED for utility assistance, shut off the pipes that bring the cleaned and processed "free" water to their house. Those getting their water without paying (or getting) a bill probably have cell phones, other "extras", and spinners on over-priced wheels they don't need to get to the job (if applicable) where they earn the funds to feed themselves and family (again... if applicable).
I have compassion and realize many folks cannot afford much and should easily qualify for utility forgiveness. BUT, we ALL know there are MANY who will simply "work the system".
Laters, folks.... I'm off to find a new job before my water bill is due!

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Jan 21 at 2015 10:03 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Wed, 21 Jan 2015 22:03:38 -0500

Water is always free. Infrastructure never is. Pay your taxes if you want to enjoy the benefits of society; same applies for driving on the roads.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2015 3:50 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 03:50:12 -0500

Access to clean water should be free, worldwide, bottom line.

If you would like access to this free and clean water then you will need to come to one of any number of water filling stations to get it, otherwise we should have non-potable disinfected water for bathing pumped to homes so that you can boil your own water as well as have a normal 20th/21st century life.

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Jan 22 at 2015 6:28 AM

SPC James Mcneil — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 06:28:06 -0500

When people are paying their water bills, they are not paying for the water. That's readily accessible. What they're paying for is the ready access to safe drinking water, and that's not always readily accessible. So, first I have to answer the title of this thread. Is water a basic human right that should be free? In an ideal world, I could say yes. But since we do not live in an ideal world, it is not water that is needed but safe drinking water, so the answer would have to be no.

And if people aren't paying their bills, they should be cut off from the service. It is a service that has a cost, and they're not paying it. Also to force others to pay more because of their lack of payment will end badly. Mark my words on this one.

Response by PO2 Stephen Brinkley (Scott) made Jan 22 at 2015 9:18 AM

PO2 Stephen Brinkley (Scott) — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 09:18:29 -0500

In my town, if you don't pay for your water the city will shut it off. Fair or not, because of the way our city is setup, it's how it's going to be.

Response by Cpl Peter Martuneac made Jan 22 at 2015 10:10 AM

Cpl Peter Martuneac — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 10:10:02 -0500

People are working to get the water into their homes. Those people need to be compensated for their labor in the form of monetary payment. Every service has a price, even water delivery. Don't wanna pay? Go get your own damn water, no one will stop you.

Response by SPC Stephen Bartlett made Jan 22 at 2015 7:41 PM

SPC Stephen Bartlett — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 19:41:28 -0500

I get thirsty I pay for my water. If they get thirsty they will too

Response by SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA made Jan 28 at 2015 4:02 AM

SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 04:02:26 -0500

Darn right it should be! We used to drink out of the hose in the garden, now we need to go out and search for water in grocery stores, travel miles like our caveman forefathers! It is a money making racket, considering water is MORE EXPENSIVE than oil, and oil is more scarce, it makes only sense to see that this is a racket.
It will not change however.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 2:01 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 14:01:48 -0400

RUNNING WATER is NOT a basic human right. However, it IS a basic human right to be able to harvest water for free. The reason I think this, is because running water is a service that someone must provide. If you deem running water a basic right, then you are enslaving those who provide it to you. Sure you can pay them to keep up appearances, but ultimately, if it's a "right" that you have running water, then it would be someone's duty to provide it to you for whether or not they are paid for it.

But the nature of rights are negative, not positive. A negative right requires that something not be taken from you, or demanded of you. A positive "right" would be laying claim to something/someone, and is effectively an institution of slavery. I could get into the weeds as to why this is my opinion, but I think I can leave it at that for now, pending any questions or challenges.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Apr 20 at 2015 4:09 PM

SrA Edward Vong — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 16:09:28 -0400

Water is, but the loophole is clean filtered water. We can all go to a well or a river and fetch water for ourselves if we want.

Response by SrA Jonathan Carbonaro made Apr 20 at 2015 4:31 PM

SrA Jonathan Carbonaro — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 16:31:04 -0400

Yes Water is a Basic Human Right.

NO it should not be free, nothing in this world is free.

Response by Sgt Cody Dumont made May 7 at 2015 2:29 PM

Sgt Cody Dumont — Thu, 07 May 2015 14:29:31 -0400

Water is a basic human right, the infrastructure to get the water the the house and processing to clean the water is a service provided by the city. So the citizen has a choice. Either walk to a river and collect untreated water or pay the bill. If the citizen does not pay TURN THE WATER OFF!!!!!!!

Response by PFC Stephen Eric Serati made May 7 at 2015 3:22 PM

PFC Stephen Eric Serati — Thu, 07 May 2015 15:22:46 -0400

Food,water,shelter,electricity,and freedom should be guaranteed to all in any Constitution.Solution,take away tax exemptions cross the board except for poverty stricken.Churches,sports,wealthiest,corporations.Cut our military budget down by 1/3rd by making it more efficient,by use of technology,and more transparent,not to the degree of sacrificing security,but misuse or paying to much for a service that could be done just as good by a lower bidder,more oversight.With that coming back into the over all budget and distributed wisely,infrastructure could be paid for and millions of Americans could be lifted out of poverty.Just a thought.