Leadership: What is the fix to NCOs who don't mentor, teach or train their Soldiers?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 06:40:37 -0500

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 6:49 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 06:49:30 -0500

That is a good question and should be addressed during their quarterly counseling. If they fail to correct it, the NCOER should reflect such.

If the NCO continues to fail at being a leader I would recommend the NCO be administratively reduced for inefficiency.

AR 600-8-19 Chapter 10

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 6:49 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 06:49:33 -0500

If your leaders don't mentor, teach, or train, then you need to take care of those around you. Doing so, you will become the leader to others that you wish you had.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 7:02 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 07:02:07 -0500

From the top down, I would say make it very clear what their job is as an NCO. In the big picture, that is our #1 job. We are Leaders and the primary trainers of Soldiers. We teach Soldiers to be Soldiers. After that we teach them their jobs. As a peer, you should be there to do that very thing to your battle buddies who are lacking. Lead by example, teach them where they may have gone astray. SHow them how it is done. Then as a friend, give them a swift kick in the rear and tell them they are lacking. Sometimes it is hard to see the forest from the trees. Be constructive, be real, but be firm. You don't have to be a bully or mean, but a little nudging in the right direction will help immensely. If that doesn't get the job done. Then maybe ramp up the calling out. Just my two cents.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 23 at 2015 7:11 AM

SGT Jim Z. — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 07:11:28 -0500

I would say it should reflect negatively in the quarterly counseling statements and on their annual NCOER. It is your duty as NCO to train and mentor Soldiers in fact I think I read that somewhere before.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 7:23 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 07:23:43 -0500

I think the fix is to groom Soldiers to become NCO while they are still junior Soldiers. People tend to want to wait until the Soldier is already an NCO to teach them how to be one. Wrong answer in my opinion. Instill it in them early and it will make the transition easier. In turn, it will decrease the knowledge gap of our Junior NCOs

Response by SSG Rob Cline made Feb 23 at 2015 7:59 AM

SSG Rob Cline — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 07:59:23 -0500

SFC Langston Clark had a good response. Good leaders are made from good Soldiers. With that being said, counselings need to be enforced, be it the monthly, quarterly, or punitive. Many senior NCOs while I was still in, neglected to maintain their Soldier's counseling packets. In some cases, when there was a sub-par junior enlisted soldier with TIS and TIG for promotion, they were allowed to go. Not because they were outstanding and deserved it, but because the counseling packet did no reflect any concerns from the leader.
It's a pretty easy fix. If the Soldier is not performing to the level needed for leadership, put it in his/her counselings with methods and challenges that can either have him succeed due to your guidance as a leader.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 9:26 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 09:26:14 -0500

4856 of actions, NCOER, demote. I can not stand a NCO that does not try to get their Soldiers better. I replaced a E-6 previously that kept all his knowledge a secret causing the entire platoon to fail if he was not around.

When I go there I taught them everything I knew and had some really good e-4's and e-5 running FDC by the time I moved on.

Response by MSgt Michelle Mondia made Feb 23 at 2015 9:43 AM

MSgt Michelle Mondia — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 09:43:00 -0500

Mandatory leadership courses should be hands on and not computer based. When you learn from a computer and not in a class room or from scenario based training this is what you get. You get basic training and nothing else. So if you don't absorb the leadership skills from that experience you will find yourself trying to click through that block in some online program. In the Air Force our leadership academy's are computer based although you have the option to go to the courses. The military needs to bring back classroom based training. A computer is not an instructor. And now we have more and more people getting degrees online too. It's alienated people and failed to teach them how to interact within a group.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Feb 23 at 2015 1:54 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 13:54:40 -0500

Corrective counseling, accurate ratings on annual reports, non-selection for reenlistment.

Response by SGT Tyler G. made Feb 23 at 2015 2:03 PM

SGT Tyler G. — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:03:16 -0500

Well, that's what quarterly counselings and NCOERs are supposed to address, but in far too many cases the rater is just checking boxes, not doing the NCO or his soldiers any favors. Beyond that, I suppose you could try to instill your future NCOs with the values of mentoring/teaching/training soldiers. They can then go on and do the same, and eventually hopefully things will change for the better.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 2:41 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:41:35 -0500

I wish I knew. I had a MSgt while I was in that fit into this category. He was grumpy & very unapproachable. He appeared to be terminal in his grade as he had been passed over for promotion a couple of times & was fast approaching 18.

As a new airman in the ICBM fields, I knew I was no where near up to par. This SNCO appeared to take it upon himself to ridicule all newbies. If we asked for advice, we were scoffed at & instructed to "figure it out - don't bother me!" His attitude was so bad that even the temperament of our NCOs (SSgts & TSgts) changed when he was in the room.

To say the least, I was relieved when he went TDY & we had a substitute come in from another flight. This SNCO actually mentored us & attempted to accelerate our abilities. It was a dark day when he went back to his flight & our original SNCO came back.

Unfortunately, I feel that when they've 'fallen' to this level, there is no bringing them back.

Response by SFC Richard M. made Feb 23 at 2015 2:45 PM

SFC Richard M. — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:45:27 -0500

Taking your question at face value, I say thank them for their service and send them on their way.

I do question the situation though. If it's a young SGT/E-5, then he needs to be shown the error of his ways and he himself needs to be supervised in the training of his Soldiers.

Staff Sergeants and above, however get no leeway.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Feb 23 at 2015 2:48 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:48:45 -0500

Are you asking what the Army should do about these NCOs? Or what you can personally do when you encounter them?

Response by Sgt Joshua Anderson made Feb 24 at 2015 1:44 AM

Sgt Joshua Anderson — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 01:44:23 -0500

Well SSG Private RallyPoint Member , I have two possible solutions which have both been mentioned in one way or another.

1. The CRB, or Competency Review Board. Now, if they're good at their job, this might be a more difficult route to pursue. Basically, are they a competent NCO and are they competent at what they do. If they flat out aren't ready to be an NCO, it'll show loud and clear here. Long story short, if things don't go well, it's one way to have a SM administratively reduced, not because they DID something bad but precisely because they DIDN'T or CAN'T do something good and beneficial. Make sense? (Sometimes I have trouble articulating thoughts at 0130...)

2. My personal route would be to avoid paperwork. I know firsthand how that can ruin the career of someone who just needs a good firm kick in the ass. I was one of them. I believe it would fall upon me in this situation to pick up the leadership slack for that NCO. Not because you're giving them a break, but because some tough love is about to come down the pipeline at them. Because, not only do you now have to do YOUR job, but you also have (basically) one more junior Marine/Soldier on your hands. Obviously they aren't ready to lead, mentor, teach, train so now someone has to do it in their place. You're looking out for the actual juniors here. However, you must also continue to aid in the personal and professional development of that NCO, no matter how green or salty they may be. Every day is a learning experience at every stage in life and in your career. Pull them aside, get down their neck a little bit, and I hate to micromanage anyone, but if they need to have their leadership scrutinized, devote a few extra minutes a day following them around making sure they're on their toes and aiding in the personal and professional development of their juniors. There's a switch that needs to be flipped when you are promoted to NCO. They need to 'take a sip of the kool-aid' as it were and really take their NCO creed for what it is: a leadership tool. Daily motivation. A constant reminder of what it is to really be an NCO. Maybe they need to be forced to come to you every morning, recite the NCO creed and give specific examples of how they will perform the tasks of an NCO and benefit the platoon and individuals under him every day for a certain amount of time until he 'gets it'.

/end rant

Sorry, stuff like this gets me fired up.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 25 at 2015 2:54 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 14:54:39 -0400

Counseling and NCOERs.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Oct 25 at 2015 6:44 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 18:44:15 -0400

Separation.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2015 7:01 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 19:01:52 -0400

The fix is simple.

Like we do for APFT, HW, countless others. The NCOs should be corrected in writing. Outlining their short comings and faults and given guidance to correct themselves. We then give them a set amount of time to correct the error. If they do that good. They then enter a probation period of a year where at any point in time if they slip back on old habits. Serration.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Oct 25 at 2015 7:56 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 19:56:39 -0400

You have to start with the fact that we have a generation of NCOs that came AFTER 9/11 that have an uneven set of tools and experiences. Those of us senior have to teach them what right looked like. We fought the first years of OEF/OIF off the hard earned legacy of the experienced NCO Corps. It is not just NCOs, there is an officer version of this too. Now we struggle with mentoring, leading, NCO led training, maintenance, supply accountability, EDREs, roll outs, load plans, mobility preparation etc. these were "the basics" that made us strong. We need to find our way back.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2015 8:22 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:22:02 -0400

I'm a firm believer in taking matters into my own hands. When I get a new leader or arrive to a new unit, I ask for the counseling and ask what is expected of me.

Response by MSgt Curtis Ellis made Oct 25 at 2015 9:36 PM

MSgt Curtis Ellis — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 21:36:50 -0400

I would first look at the programs and training currently in place for NCO's/JrNCO's to continue learning and improving these skills and whether Sr Leadership endorses it. Begin there before punishing or accusing as it will keep you from having to "back track" as well as aid you in specifically identifying "broke" and give you direct insight for fixing it (Don't just tell them what's wrong, have options to fix it), as often is the case. Then proceed with the correct/indicated course of action from there. Old school, but still sound...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2015 11:24 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 23:24:01 -0400

That is a great question. I have seen something like this once. A squad leader took it upon himself to develop a PLT's SGT Time Program. It was a very well planned and set up program. By doing that the Platoon pretty much just fell into it and by doing the SGT Time program it started to put some of the soldiers back on track. Some didn't care for it. But something has to be done.

Response by SFC Toby Reid made Oct 26 at 2015 10:24 AM

SFC Toby Reid — Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:24:40 -0400

The fix is to mentor, teach and train NCOs. NCOs do what they have been taught to do. The days of "strong and wrong" style leadership needs to end from all levels of leadership. And most can see that this mentality is widely evident. This problem is deep rooted and will take work, not a simple demote and separate strategy. Because that would still be more of the same "strong and wrong" strategy. If you don't have an active NCO mentor, find one even if you have to look outside your immediate chain of command, I have. Take care of yourselves and each other.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 26 at 2015 6:53 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:53:19 -0400

Maybe your CO and 1SG need fixing?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2015 11:51 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Oct 2015 23:51:17 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member,

If I were a Senior NCO, I would spend a few weeks mentoring those junior Soldiers myself and having the buck SGT sit in on my mentoring sessions, so s/he would know what right looks like.

Then, I would have the SGT write out his own, personal top 10 leadership maxims and reflect on them each day to see if his actions that day matched his maxims.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 29 at 2015 6:06 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 18:06:09 -0400

If the CO and 1SG cant perceive this, what does it say about them?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 6 at 2015 12:25 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 12:25:35 -0500

What are the CO and 1SG like at work?

Response by SSG George Holtje made Feb 28 at 2020 10:53 PM

SSG George Holtje — Fri, 28 Feb 2020 22:53:56 -0500

Stop giving them 1/1 for being a Good Ole Boy and running really fast.

‘How many did you take with you SGT fast track?’

Do your soldiers know how to march, shoot, communicate, do their jobs?

NCOs need to be evaluated by the led, not by Higher buddy system