Let’s Be Real: Is it Hazing or Helping?

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 09:34:42 -0400

I can remember reporting to my very first unit like it happened just yesterday. I was a brand new Private First Class and I had just spent the last month back home doing “hometown recruiting.” I drove all morning, just over eight hours, dressed in my Class A uniform. My 1999 Firebird was stuffed full with everything that I owned...which wasn’t a whole lot. I arrived at Fort Hood, Texas a little later in the afternoon than I had wanted, but I wasn’t worried. What I didn’t know then about the Army was that I wasn’t just going to walk up to my unit and that would be it. Nope. Instead, I would spend almost the entire first week attached to the replacement battalion. Meeting my new unit was going to have to wait.

When I finally did arrive at my new unit, it was a much different experience than I thought it would be. I was so used to the hustle and bustle of basic training that when I was actually treated somewhat like a human being, it caught me slightly off-guard. My unit was actually deployed, and had been for some time, when I arrived. We new guys were immediately thrust into more training in order to get us ready to ship out in the very near future. I was excited. Of course it wasn’t without the usual learning curve, but I made it through the classes and exercises well enough. In two or so months’ time, I was deployed to Iraq to link up with what would be my troop. This is where it all began...

I never had a real problem with hazing. It wasn’t a new concept to me, as we had experienced a level of hazing in high school during JROTC activities. Laugh all you like, but the structure and training of JROTC is actually a great representation of the military in a microcosm-like form. I had learned when I was a freshman in high school that hazing was less about being a dick for the sake of being a dick, and more about putting someone through a crucible. It was a way of allowing the newest members of your unit to prove themselves worthy. I was up for the challenge.

Unlike some of my peers, I had a difficult time earning that worth. I wasn’t nearly as physically fit as the rest of the guys and in my MOS, that was a big no-no. In addition, I was very outspoken. In many areas this may have been a plus, but for anyone who knows the military, being an opinionated and outspoken private is possibly one of the worst things that you could be. I was put on detail after detail; KP for days on end, burning shit both morning and night, and let’s not forget the twelve hour shifts in the TOC. I was kept as an outsider for quite some time. I was also “smoked” my fair share due to my uncontrollable habit to open my big mouth. Even through all of this though, I tried my best to keep my chin up and get through it. This was the military after all and what was I to expect? We were quite literally tasked with keeping one another alive and to shoot the bad guys in the face! That’s a big deal, especially for a little 18 year old kid. Then, after months and months of blood, sweat, and tears, it all changed.

I no longer was the butt of the jokes, the victim of details, or smoked for no apparent reason. We were back in garrison and, although I cannot pin down the exact moment that it ended, I can remember the phase where it all seemed to go away. I wasn’t an outsider any longer! I was still a young PFC, but in between details, classes, etc., I could be found in the smoking area with peers and seniors alike, hanging out and joking, just another member of the group. The amount of pride that I felt to finally be included in this club was of so much that I still can’t even begin to explain. Yes, I was proud when I had graduated high school. Of course, I was ecstatic when I donned my beret at OSUT graduation. Putting on my combat patch for the first time gave me one of the biggest smiles that I have probably ever worn. But to not just be a soldier, but to be accepted by my peers in my chosen profession - the feeling was absolutely indescribable.

Soon, we began to get new guys into the unit. Fresh FNGs (Fucking New Guys) trickled and flowed into our ranks and I watched as they were hazed. They were put through the same crap that, just a little while ago, I had gotten through and I understood. I will not lie, I joined in on it. So did all of the other guys that I had come to the unit with. It wasn’t about just being a prick to some unsuspecting teenager (because not all of them were teenagers). It was a test. The Army has their test to see if you can do the job; that is was basic training and AIT are for (or OSUT for my Combat Arms brethren). But the world has its own test to ensure that I know I can trust you to do what you were trained. So I know that I don’t have to worry about you cracking under the pressure. Because if you are unable to handle a few push-ups, or a few punches to the chest when you get a promotion, or a practical joke here and there - if you are unable to handle these things, what makes me think you can handle the real rigors of this job when it really matters?

I have heard a lot of people defend the idea that hazing is horrible, that it is a crime and people that conduct this fowl activity should be punished. I have only this to say to those people: The military does not care about your feelings. The military is in the business of killing people. If you cannot handle a little hazing, you shouldn’t have put on a uniform in the first place. Go back to your safe space and let the real men and women do real work.

Response by SPC Margaret Higgins made Aug 3 at 2017 9:37 AM

SPC Margaret Higgins — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 09:37:56 -0400

SGT Joseph Gunderson: It's Hazing.
Best Regards to You This Morning, Sergeant-
Margaret

Response by SGT Edward Wilcox made Aug 3 at 2017 9:46 AM

SGT Edward Wilcox — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 09:46:45 -0400

Hazing is wrong, no matter how you try to justify it. Sometimes it is harmless, "go get a box of grid squares", "go to commo and get a can of squelch for the radio", etc. Most times it is not, such as endless dirty details and getting smoked for "no reason". It is not worth ones' career if the hazing goes wrong. Best not to do it at all. Unit cohesion can be built in better ways.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2017 9:46 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 09:46:52 -0400

First off, hazing can certainly be taken too far. When people get hurt in a way that weakens the unit, it's bad. We've seen this before but more often than not, it never gets that far. But what you described, by your own admission, seems more like your unit was trying to teach the FNG that can't keep his big mouth shut a lesson on what his role in the unit was. KP and TOC duty is not hazing. Those are things that have to happen. Smoke sessions can be taken too far but aren't bad in and of themselves. I'm guessing that in the end you were accepted by you peers not because you made it through some crucible, but because you kept your chin up and did what you were told and after a while they saw that this is a good guy. Big mouth and all. Had you resisted all the extra duty and become a pain in everyone's rear, you wouldn't have found yourself smoking and joking with the rest of the guys.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2017 10:01 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 10:01:33 -0400

An action taken become hazing because of the intent behind it. If there is no intent, it is hazing if it doesn't help anyone, it is hazing.
So I think it is better to still correct someone by making sure the punishment meets the crime.
Some people think being shouting at someone is part of being a great leader.
Au contraire, being a leader means you know when to use the tools at your disposition and not just because.

Response by SSG DavId Murphy made Aug 3 at 2017 11:49 AM

SSG DavId Murphy — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 11:49:41 -0400

Well said SGT Gunderson!!!

Response by SGT David T. made Aug 3 at 2017 12:09 PM

SGT David T. — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 12:09:42 -0400

My first unit was much the same sort of thing. I also have a bad habit of thinking for myself and being opinionated which are two traits that did not serve me well as a Private. However, it was a valuable learning experience for me. It turned out to be a great example of what not to do when I donned my stripes. I made it a point not to do that with my subordinates. I had this crazy notion that I should treat adults as adults. Shocking I know. I never used physical exercise as discipline tool (except in instances of APFT failures). I preferred the talking to people as an adult method and it worked well for the most part.

Many so called leaders always talk about being professional, but in nine years most I ran across were anything but. Of course there were some exceptions to that and I had a few great leaders as well. However, many lacked any modicum of people skills and demanded respect without earning it. Some screamed, cussed at, smoked for no reason, and berated their troops. I pity them because when they get out they will not be able to function in the civilian world.

Response by SFC Kelly Fuerhoff made Aug 3 at 2017 12:32 PM

SFC Kelly Fuerhoff — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 12:32:42 -0400

We are in the business of protecting US interests - that's it. Sometimes that means we kill people. Not always. The purpose of the US military is to protect America and its interests. That's it. That's doctrine.

Yeah the military doesn't care about feelings BUT if you're treating your workforce like sub-humans how far do you think you will get in your mission? How much success will your unit have if you have a bunch of toxic leaders who treat everyone below them like pieces of trash? Certain duties are not hazing. Making someone do a few pushups or run a little isn't hazing. But there are incidents of extreme hazing that go too far and people end up dead or seriously injured and that is bullshit and should not be tolerated.

Response by SP5 Norman McGill made Aug 3 at 2017 1:40 PM

SP5 Norman McGill — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 13:40:02 -0400

I'd say it was helping. It's a natural thing to check out the people around you to see who's ass you can beat or who can beat your ass. Happens everyday all over the world. No matter what happens you have to know if you can count on the guy next to you if and when you need it. The only way to find that out is to test him or her to find their reactions. Only then will you know if you can count on this person. They also have to know they can count on you too.

Response by SGT Eric Knutson made Aug 4 at 2017 6:38 AM

SGT Eric Knutson — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 06:38:46 -0400

I will agree that hazing can be taken too far, and when it endangers a person, that is it. But "blood wings or stripes" to me (and many who have earned them) they are the final rite of passage, if you are airborne you know that our skill is a dangerous one that can get you killed almost any time you are near the equipment, most of us bled at least a little in training, so no big deal, yes, I had been awarded my wings, but I wanted to be accepted as well. Well the blackhats were around the corner of the building where you could, if you chose, get your blood wings as well, My Commander from the reserves happened to make himself available at FT Benning and gave me my blood, and THAT was the proudest moment in my life up to that point and I would do it again.
As for the sending people around looking for the snipe hunt things, (grid squares, prop wash, PRC E8, etc) generally in my experiance 2 fold reason, get them out of your hair for a few minutes (lessor reason) or to teach them to PAY ATTENTION to what is said (Primary reason) every single thing, if you think about it for a minute, will make sense that it is a bogus item, I was taught that if I did not understand something, to ASK better questions. Many of us have heard that the devil is in the details. Of course the funniest time I remember was an 11B20 being sent from the arms room, looking for a M-203 Blank adapter.

Response by PO1 Timothy Organ made Aug 4 at 2017 12:56 PM

PO1 Timothy Organ — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 12:56:34 -0400

Sounds like you got some good guidance. That's where it begins... You come in new, learn the ropes, and then if you allow it to mold you in the right way, then you're in, otherwise you still need guidance. That's what you got there. Unless there is another story here we're not getting.

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made Aug 4 at 2017 1:06 PM

CSM Thomas McGarry — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 13:06:11 -0400

I have an especial problem with hazing when it is used by those in charge as a tool to vent their internal prejudices against those in their charge such as what happened in the Marines at Parris Island.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2017 7:27 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 19:27:59 -0400

The life of the brand new lower enlisted Soldier is going to be hard, but it shouldn't involve mistreatment for the sake of mistreatment. However, I remember younger Soldiers that were initially a bit lackadaisical with regard to being where they were supposed to be when they were supposed to be there and having their gear ready to do whatever we were going to do. They simply could not be relied upon to do what was assigned to them without direct supervision. That resulted in lots pushups, grass-drills, and corrective training on weekends or in the evenings. They fairly quickly got with the program and began to experience the same exasperation as the rest of us dealing the next wave new guys. I think some of them might have remembered some of the hard days as hazing, but I think they would mistaken in that interpretation. We really needed them to grow up. They did.

At the same time, I've read and heard of serious hazing in the form of mistreatment that apparently had no point other than sadism or the feeling of empowerment for people with psychological failings. There is no place for that in a professional army. I don't mean punches on promotion. I mean treatment that drives young Soldiers to go UA or AWOL, or to harm themselves, or to ETS in disgust after only a single term of service. The Army should not tolerate that.

But for yet another angle, I've also encountered young lower enlisted personnel who cried upon being directed to sweep and mop a floor because they felt that there was a credit or debit out of whack in the great imagined accounting books of which lower enlisted Soldier has been assigned which details most frequently. There is no such ledger. The floor's dirty, it's publicly visible in a prominent common area, I need it cleaned up, and there's a couple of E-3s nearby not doing anything. I could have done without the soap opera that sometimes accompanied that. Always liked grunt units better.

Response by PO3 Mitchell Haynie made Aug 10 at 2017 3:56 PM

PO3 Mitchell Haynie — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 15:56:53 -0400

Perhaps this is an issue of semantics, being an "Old Guy" what you describe would have been considered "correction", "coaching", and "training" unit style. With us it began in boot with disciplining our own within the company, such as a "shower party" when someone just "couldn't get right"! I remember things like "Short Tours" and "Marching Parties" as forms of punishment/correction that I am sure would be outside PC today.
As to what we considered "Hazing" which in my mind is like an indoctrination or "ceremony" to be a part of some unique or exclusive crew, event, etc. In my day it was the Shellback or line crossing party which was two fun filled days of misery and and at some points, disgust which was in an unspoken manner, mandatory! I survived it, wouldn't ever want to do it again, it got me a title and a certificate I lost years ago which tells you how much it meant to me!

Response by GySgt Ken Norwood made Aug 22 at 2017 3:57 PM

GySgt Ken Norwood — Tue, 22 Aug 2017 15:57:46 -0400

Sorry to bust your bubble, but this was not hazing. You were put on work details that every other junior rank had been doing before you ever got there. Now it was your turn in the barrel. As far as being a big mouth, well, the professional Soldiers in your unit have no time for that garbage. I will assume you have cut out the big mouth crap as you matured into a more professional Soldier. As far as "being smoked" goes I believe your leaders were trying to get your attention and teach you some professionalism rather than send you in to the old man for an article 15... Just one old Gunny's opinion...

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2017 8:52 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Aug 2017 20:52:40 -0400

Everyday at 1530 my nco would tell me to close the office door and get in front lean and rest. She would always ask what did I do wrong today? And what did I learn? Im a better soldier for it. Im not a whiny stereotype. I take pride in the fact I am a strong, confident Soldier before strong, confident woman.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2017 5:40 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Aug 2017 17:40:21 -0400

Hazing in all forms is bad! Should not be done. If you find yourself in a position of gaining personal satisfaction for the demise of another, YOU ARE WRONG. Now what you described as "Hazing" is nothing close to that descriptive. Shitters need to be burned and you probably fell in as low man or close enough to that title to be in the running for shitter NCOIC or private. KP, you eat, you can clean.

Now rites of passage in my mind should be just that; a rite of passage that does not cause substantial harm to one and not done in a drunken state. Properly supervised to ensure that in case of an unforeseen injury occurrence; immediate and proper care can be facilitated. Rite of passage have been known to strengthen unit morale and comradeship within a unit. If it has long traditions and it is something that is required by all, then it should take place. I have been a part of many that I absolutely believe made me and the men I shared the experience with a more cohesive unit. I have seen units that do not participate in a rite of passage event, but uphold the Army values; they too were cohesive units.

Hazing to be a bully/punk is just that. It is the act of cowards using bully tactics that most likely they never were subjected too and has zero tradition to fall back on.

Be, Know, Do in all things and carry the Army values with you in all things and more times than not, you and your unit will be better for it.

Response by Ginny Hovland made Sep 18 at 2017 3:41 PM

Ginny Hovland — Mon, 18 Sep 2017 15:41:10 -0400

After being an Army Brat, and Now An Army spouse 31 almost 32 years I have seen so much change. Yes some was for the better, and some was not. My honest opinion is the Army has gotten Soft. Most new recruits can get away with anything. Tell them do 50 push ups and they cry wolf. I say suck it up butter cup, and stop being a TWAT Waffle. The Army isn't for the weak. Hence Army Strong.

Response by Chef Benson K Saenger made Sep 29 at 2017 1:52 PM

Chef Benson K Saenger — Fri, 29 Sep 2017 13:52:13 -0400

Its is both. Must earning respect. It cannot be handed to you. Train and prepare for the worst. Hazing is essential to character building and overall ethical growth. Politcal correctness has turned our future millenials into cry babies and nipple suckers.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2017 1:22 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Oct 2017 01:22:12 -0400

Sergeant, I'm going to disagree with you. You say that we should not have put on this uniform if we can't handle hazing - but the fact of the matter is, we probably all can. We survived basic, we survived high school, and personally, I have survived extraneous college fraternity hazing. Maybe your hazing isn't as vicious, dangerous, or stupid as the hazing I had to go through. However, I disagree anyways. Hazing is a disgrace to this uniform. When you put on that uniform, you best put it on with pride and honor. Pride and honor that many have given their lives and underwent absolutely horrific and terrible deaths to build. Yeah, we get it, the military prepares you for a terrible experience, as war preparation should be. But it can be done without hazing. By all means, smoke me for hours. Get up in my face, chew me out. Keep me in the forward leaning rest for two hours. Make me go through extreme confidence courses. But there's one thing that no one can deny. Hazing is a disgrace to this uniform, and those who died wearing it would be rolling over in their graves knowing that it was being defended and accepted in our Army.

Response by SGT Josh Lee made Oct 24 at 2017 8:52 PM

SGT Josh Lee — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 20:52:10 -0400

Agreed.

Response by SGT Josh Lee made Oct 24 at 2017 8:54 PM

SGT Josh Lee — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 20:54:51 -0400

Everyone has to say something smart, huh? The type soldiers are like "awww fuck here he goes about to speech us to death". Good read Bro.

Response by SPC Justin Turner made Nov 15 at 2017 11:54 AM

SPC Justin Turner — Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:54:03 -0500

I think ever swinging dick and pair of tits who is about to join should read this first! This is exactly what you need to expect as a newbie and you need to grind your teeth and suck it up and earn your place. All these whinny ass millennial snowflakes need to sack up and realize just because youve finished basic training you aint done shit YET!

Response by SPC David Willis made Nov 16 at 2017 12:25 PM

SPC David Willis — Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:25:07 -0500

Like many have pointed out hazing can go too far. The minute the paddles and broom sticks come out you know you crossed the line. However I disagree with others that say its simply "corrective action" no its not, it is hazing, when Im standing in a hall way Im doing nothing that needs correction but Im still gonna be doing pushups until theres a puddle of sweat for me to mop up. The military (especially combat arms) isn't an organization that can just welcome you as a member with a day long orientation/training period. Im no shrink or professor but somehow my several month long initiation period in my first unit leading up to our deployment made it to where we would do anything for each other no matter what.

Response by SPC David Harrington made Nov 21 at 2017 11:14 PM

SPC David Harrington — Tue, 21 Nov 2017 23:14:07 -0500

Smoking young soldiers is not hazing. On the spot corrections are not hazing. Hazing is abuse. A young college student can choose to leave the frat if the hazing gets too bad, but a young soldier signed a contract. That feeling of being trapped in an abusive situation can get people killed. I've seen it happen downrange.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2017 3:48 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Nov 2017 15:48:49 -0500

Fucking Outstanding!!!!

Response by SFC Greg Bruorton made Nov 25 at 2017 3:58 PM

SFC Greg Bruorton — Sat, 25 Nov 2017 15:58:57 -0500

Joseph, that is a great write-up on your experiences through training and the ultimate reward of acceptance among your peers and superiors. I'm happy you stuck through all the hazing, as unnecessary as it seemed at the time, but you've proved your mettle and willingness to get the job done. Now that you are a bonafide sergeant all is "a go" in your career.
Greg

Response by CW4 Brian Haas made Dec 22 at 2017 5:25 PM

CW4 Brian Haas — Fri, 22 Dec 2017 17:25:56 -0500

When not done overboard, hazing is very valuable. It’s a shame that we have snowflakes that have upended it totally...it bonds people together.

Response by Sgt Michael Caldwell made Dec 26 at 2017 8:40 PM

Sgt Michael Caldwell — Tue, 26 Dec 2017 20:40:00 -0500

I laugh at this, this is welcoming New Marines into our small unit in 74..

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2018 4:19 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Jun 2018 16:19:52 -0400

Much like any other social concept, Hazing (in any of it's names; e.g. orientation, tradition, initiation) is a practice that must be prohibited because of the difficulty in semantics. While cases can certainly be made where the is a minimal harm/benefit ratio, without clear lines, such a practice can be taken to far. Thus you end up with a situation where a family must be told that their child suffered not through a US enemy, but their own peers, in something that could have been avoided. No leader want's to go through that for any number of reasons. So while some traditions may have actually build unit morale and cohesion, all it takes is one person who punches a little to hard or someone with a sensitive GI system to reconsider a practice as a whole. Considering how much is invested into any particular Soldier and the fallout an issue from hazing can cause, in is only utilitarian to prohibit it.

Response by SGT John Ball made Feb 27 at 2022 5:38 PM

SGT John Ball — Sun, 27 Feb 2022 17:38:24 -0500

Old post, I know, but this caught my attention. So, I have to say my peace on this subject. I enlisted in the '80s and hazing was pretty common in those days. Some leaders did take it too far though and did result in physical injuries. I was hazed back then and I never took it wrong because I wasn't one of the guys then and felt I had to earn my place. I took it all in stride without any whining or complaints.

Response by Amn Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2022 12:52 AM

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