Lower ranking SMs being placed in charge of more senior SMs

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 14 May 2014 23:19:02 -0400

What are your thought on junior ranking individuals being placed in charge of those more senior to them?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2014 12:16 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 May 2014 00:16:09 -0400

I have seen it and I have been that junior officer in charge a few times. I think it has merit and shows extreme confidence in the junior officer. However, it also shows lack of confidence in the senior officers. Does it every show up in their evaluation though? How do we keep getting those officers promoted? It is depressing at times to see these senior officers make promotion lists when you were in charge of them for a period of time.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made May 15 at 2014 1:31 AM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Thu, 15 May 2014 01:31:42 -0400

I'm all-in for the right person for the job, regardless of rank. I've seen (and backed up) a junior Soldier several times if they were the right person for the job. I encourage this development style, and believe it creates healthy competition. If you are senior and don't want to step up and perform, then stand to the left and I will empower a subordinate, AND I will ensure that subordinate is recognized accordingly.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2014 6:40 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 May 2014 06:40:22 -0400

If it is because of the demonstrated leadership potential of that junior leader and the lack thereof from the more senior of the two, then absolutely!

If it is because someone is hooking up their boy, then heck no!

I was a newly promoted SFC when I became a company 1SG. I had two Sergeants First Class that outranked me by at least three years (time in grade) in my company. There was justification in the decision, trust me.

Response by MAJ Dallas D. made May 15 at 2014 7:50 AM

MAJ Dallas D. — Thu, 15 May 2014 07:50:59 -0400

When I was a young SPC (1989) I was selected to be our BN NBC NCO over 3 NCO's (2 SSG's and a SGT). Why they wanted to stay at the company level so they could "sham". The CSM told me if his NCO's didn't want to do their job he would put me in charge of them. It made for some very awkward BN inspections on the Company NBC Rooms. I learned a lot of how to deal with someone who outranked you but you have positional authority over them. It really taught me so much!

Bottom line was we had 3 substandard NCO's who should have been pissed that they didn't get the position instead they were hiding out avoiding it. I later saw one of them and he was still a SSG by that time I was a SSG as well, funny how things happen.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2014 7:58 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 May 2014 07:58:51 -0400

The ability to correctly do the job is the ultimate goal so I have no problem with it. I have put PFC's in charge of teams when a SPC didn't show the leadership required as well as SGT's as Squad Leaders when a SSG couldn't get the job done.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2014 8:47 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 May 2014 08:47:47 -0400

I outranked my Station Commander (another SSG) when I was a recruiter.

Response by SSG John Bacon made May 15 at 2014 8:59 AM

SSG John Bacon — Thu, 15 May 2014 08:59:32 -0400

It's a good way to assess leadership potential. It is also a good indicator of how well your Squad or Platoon works as a group. Shakes things up a little.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2014 9:31 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 May 2014 09:31:29 -0400

Well, rank is not always everything. Experience, skill, and ability make a good leader, not solely being advanced. This problem is very prominent in the Navy, as many are advanced to the next rank because they can take a test well, not necessarily that they are qualified for the added responsibilities. I recently ran into this problem with an E-5 who was advanced this last cycle, and he is not a good leader. There was an incident where his ability to lead the small team, which we had for planning and installing new systems onto boats, was questioned, so I was put in command, as I was the senior E-4, as well as having the greatest technical knowledge.

This E-5 did not like this situation, and I knew I had to tread lightly. Even though he gave me a lot of trouble that day, I gave him a break, as I knew it would be hard, however the next day it continued. Long story short, I had to treat him as one of my other Sailors, while still respecting his rank, and sadly he did not respect me, so certain actions were taken by the Chain of Command.

In summary, I believe that sometimes it is necessary, depending on the type of work that the unit does.

Response by SFC Dave Mccain made May 15 at 2014 10:27 AM

SFC Dave Mccain — Thu, 15 May 2014 10:27:55 -0400

this a delicate but fairly common situation. I have personally been the junior placed in charge several times over my career; as well as placing others in non-orthodox positions. in many of these cases, i had to choose the most competent individual for the job. sometimes it was related to the senior failing, other times it was the junior was the most experienced/ capable to accomplish. 9 times out of 10 I ill task the senior, however (METTC dependent) sometimes you have to do what you have to do. One of my wisest Battalion commanders spoke simply by saying "i will defer to expertise." I have many times stated myself, that "if you are the one who knows what the hell is going on, you are in charge." Many PFCs have trained many SSGs.

Response by SFC Stephen Carden made May 15 at 2014 11:14 AM

SFC Stephen Carden — Thu, 15 May 2014 11:14:52 -0400

Feelings don't count in the Army, only mission accomplishment. If the junior is more qualified to execute or supervise something than the senior, then the junior should do it. The junior should, of course, remember his military courtesy and be tactful. I was the beneficiary of one of these decisions, and because of my demonstrated leadership ability I was able to occupy an SFC position for 2 years as an SSG (the third year, I was promoted to the correct rank for the position). Meanwhile, several SFCs rotated into the company, and I expected to be fired and replaced, but the 1SG told me that I was doing an excellent job and that if it wasn't broken, he wasn't going to "fix" it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2014 11:16 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 May 2014 11:16:29 -0400

I personally, have used this as a teaching technique - but not in the manner you are thinking.

No matter what you do in life, there are Soldiers who know more about a subject than you do. These Soldiers are SMEs (Subject Matter Experts) in these particular subjects, and I use a SME like this to teach me how to do something I may not have been exposed to.

An example of this would be a Soldier who I have attached to my detachment as a Medic. If I saw the Medic knows more than I do about medical, especially emergency medical situations, I told them: "If we have someone go down, YOU are in charge of the situation and the scene. YOU tell ME what you need me to do and I'll do it."

I also had a MAJ, in the middle of two different combat situations, during each, look at me and tell me "SFC Wayman, you're in charge." I said "Roger Sir" and I took charge. In that case, the MAJ wasn't a very tactically knowledgeable person, but he knew I was - so he put the best man in charge of himself and the other personnel. It wasn't, as it almost sounds, as if he were shirking his responsibility - he wasn't - he stayed right there and did as I told him to, and we got out of the situations just fine. Had he been in charge? We probably still would have gotten out of each one, but he didn't have the knowledge to know 100% what he was doing was the right thing, and rather than dick around with trying to figure it out, made the decision to defer to the most tactically proficient Soldier there.

When YOU know YOUR own weaknesses, and know when to step down and put the better man (or woman) in charge, that is leadership. If it turns out that they are screwing up, you can always step in and either temporarily re-take charge, guide them a little, or take complete control again if need be.

Response by CSM Dwayne Perry made May 16 at 2014 1:08 PM

CSM Dwayne Perry — Fri, 16 May 2014 13:08:24 -0400

Sir no matter what the capability of the individual the chain of command and the NCO support channel should be adhered to. If an individual shows competence and capability grow the individual under a competent NCO and get him promoted. To disrupt the NCO support channel grows unrest and will lose their loyalty to you over time. Suppose we place NCOs over 2LTs? or colonels over general officers?

Response by CSM Dwayne Perry made May 16 at 2014 1:13 PM

CSM Dwayne Perry — Fri, 16 May 2014 13:13:17 -0400

If you want to assess leadership theyre other ways ...be creative. Once in Graf our battalion was given an exeval.....they called endex and brought all the leadership (senior NCOs and Officers) together for the AAR. Only thing was it wasn't endex and they attacked the battalion to see how well the unit performed in combat.....without its established leadership

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2014 1:48 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 May 2014 13:48:54 -0400

Sometimes your senior SM's need that extra "push" for them to remove their brain protector from the effluent discharge facility and realize they are deficient in certain aspects either professionally or militarily.

I was on an extended cruise (fellow nav types will understand that one) and came up on a situation - my boat engineer (a fellow 2nd class) was not up to par in so many ways and it was taking up a lot of my time as the division LPO. I relieved him and put a lowly fireman-duece (E-2 for you non-navy types) in charge of the small boats as engineer without any notification to anyone but the two individuals. Now any of you old-timers can see the huge holes in that thought pattern - but it worked.

My division officer didn't find out / discover this "fact" for almost 2 months. The Div-O had been TAD for a while, we were waiting for BUPERS for find a Chief to send our way, the First Class had just retired and we were still waiting on his relief - which basically put a 2nd class in charge of the Division. Looks good on paper, but trust me, the Chief's mess didn't take it well at all. Cheng, however was happy, XO was Gung-ho and the CO didn't care unless I screwed up. So when the relieved 2nd class complained that his pay had been cut (lost out on the extra pay for boat engineer) and at the same time the returning Div-O received the paperwork from personnel for signature that I had submitted to put the FA in for a spot promotion to 3rd Class there were a few moments of angst.

But two things came out of this scenario. The 2nd class learned that being senior did NOT mean he couldn't be replaced/relieved and a young FA learned that being competent, capable, willing and able combined with an outstanding attitude will get you far.

Seniority has it's place...but seniority is NOT the only answer.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2014 5:28 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 May 2014 17:28:43 -0400

This happens in recruiting frequently...at one point I was a 5 in charge of a 6 & 7. It can become a tricky situation if everyone involved doesn't behave as an adult. The lower ranking still needs to be respectful of the senior ranking and at the same time the senior ranking need to accept that the junior ranking is in that position for a reason. Once someone lets either rank or position go to their head the chance for productivity go down.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2014 11:45 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 17 May 2014 11:45:36 -0400

I think that if the junior ranking SM has more knowledge and/or experience with the job, then they should certainly be put in charge of a senior ranking SM. The right guy for the job to get results that are needed to complete the mission.

Response by PO1 Floyd Clark made May 17 at 2014 11:56 AM

PO1 Floyd Clark — Sat, 17 May 2014 11:56:13 -0400

I am and always have been of the mind of letting junior personnel take the reins if they knew their shit. Everyone needs to learn and sometimes that can mean the senior ranks. As long as the junior person respects the uniform of the senior then they have it. Besides are we not supposed to be training our replacements, sometimes even in a "leadership" role?

Response by CPT Brandon Christensen made May 19 at 2014 10:25 AM

CPT Brandon Christensen — Mon, 19 May 2014 10:25:29 -0400

I experienced this when I was on BN staff in the SPO section in our BSB. The 3 CPT's on my team didn't care about drills and our jobs (or were just that uneducated about logistics), but after talking with the SPO (rarely showed up to drills, excused)he gave me the "authority" to run the SPO section in his absence.

So as a freshly 1LT, I was leading 3 CPT's and the whole SPO section for a BSB. Lucky for me, they didn't have a problem, and stepped aside and let me do what needed to be done. Now when I had a task that needed to be done, I was respectful when assigning it to them and they didn't have an issue with it.

Like what CSM Uhlig said, there shouldn't be an issue as long as the person is right for the position regardless of their rank. And these 3 CPT's saw it and didn't want to prevent me from showing my full potential.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2014 2:01 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 May 2014 02:01:23 -0400

In a perfect Army, the rank structure that we have in place would allow us identify the best leaders for a job by adhering to that structure. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

As a senior NCO, I always gave my higher ranking subordinates the first shot at a job, but if they were unsuccessful because of their own downfalls or shortcomings (laziness, lack of professionalism, lack of effort, etc...), then I had no problem replacing then with Soldiers that were junior to them. This was not always a popular decision, but if you are able to justify your decision, then it's unlikely that anyone will give you a hard time about it.

Good luck.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 7 at 2014 6:47 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Jul 2014 18:47:08 -0400

What's the regulatory reference/authority for this type of scenario?

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 7 at 2014 6:47 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Jul 2014 18:47:16 -0400

What's the regulatory reference/authority for this type of scenario?

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 2:12 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 14:12:39 -0500

Happens all the time in my line of work. I'm constantly instructing people senior to me, with administrative control of their schedule and whereabouts.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2015 4:55 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Feb 2015 04:55:13 -0500

If the Lower ranking has what it takes to do the job and nobody else wants to do it. I am all for it. But then I would question why they out rank the lower SM if they are not wanting the responsibility of leading.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2015 10:06 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Aug 2015 22:06:50 -0400

Nope...I've been in an office where this happened and it's just awkward and difficult. It would have been better to just move the higher ranking individual to another position (and not into a position that looks like a promotion).

Response by SGT Jimmy Russo made Apr 11 at 2019 5:48 PM

SGT Jimmy Russo — Thu, 11 Apr 2019 17:48:33 -0400

i see this is a older post, why it popped up I dont know . But I was stationed with a maintenance unit 3rd Shop , there had been some real problems with our tech inspection department not only were they are issues with our shop but from our customer support units as well , I was a Sp4 at the time an My CO came to me an put me in charge of the department , There was E-7 that was the NCOIC , an E-6 an 2 E-5, They were all reassigned to a different department with in the company , An another E6 was added , The CO made it very clear That I was to run the Department , which made for a pretty hostile work environment , I was suppose to file all the daily reports , attend department meetings with other Senior NCO , as by allocation there was supposed to be an E-7 in charge , an there was alot of grumbling by the other senior NCOs the first few months , however during Inspections an such I had to fall in behind The E-6 , which kinda just kinda complicated things as well , but I filled the role of an E-7 for a year an half till I earned my SGT Stripes , by the end of the 2nd year a New Incoming E-7 took over after I had to train him , An I was returned to the main shop as there was a shortage of team leaders there , But it was kinda funny when someone came in to the Dept with a question on Procedures in the E-6 would turn an point need to talk to the specialist Russo , I had streamlined procedures on getting vehicles in and out of the shop and assuring proper maintenance had been performed and necessary paperwork completed to document it , basically the staff Sergeant was my clerk , took about 6 months an he finally made the job more bearable ,