LT's writing NCOERS

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:05:54 -0500

How much training does officers get on NCOERS? I've seen a rise in LT's that have no idea about NCOER's. I have no problem helping them but it seems to me that they dont have the slightest idea.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Jan 28 at 2014 4:16 PM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:16:22 -0500

They aren't supposed to write them... You write it for them and they sign it. If you got a good one, they will ask you why you wrote it the way you did so you don't have to write all of them.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2014 6:57 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 18:57:11 -0500

Seriously? I write it for them??? negative! How is he/she suppose to learn... Ok but that's not what I asked. Thanks for your input.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2014 7:04 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 19:04:06 -0500

NCOER's aren't covered in Officer Training. So much of we actually end up doing isn't. However, your LT should be filling it out to the best of their capability and then getting with a mentor or another senior NCO that they trust to ensure that they are doing a proper job and the right thing for their NCO. If they are not…well no one is going to manage your career but you and then I would go ahead and give them an extremely thorough -1 with continuation sheets of solid bullets that they just have to plug and play. Besides they aren't going to see everything you do on a daily basis so thats just a best practice regardless of rank or position.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2014 7:53 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 19:53:41 -0500

I ask because the battalion I'm in the bn cdr/csm makes the LTs write their psg ncoer and they have no clue where to start. Like I mentioned in the initial post I do help them but I didn't know if they recieved any training or classes about the ncoer. Hell from what I'm seeing is most junior NCOs don't understand the ncoer and some of them are filling psg or sfc positions and these are people that the young LTs need to ask these questions too.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Feb 7 at 2014 2:43 PM

1SG Steven Stankovich — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:43:25 -0500

When I has a Platoon Sergeant, I made sure that my PL counseled me IAW with regulations and also drafted my NCOER. After his draft, we sat down and we talked over each section and each bullet. That was what I like to call professional development for my PL. While my PLs usually had the raw facts there, they needed the education and development to massage those facts into bullet comments for a NCOER. That served a few end states. First and foremost, it ensured that we collaborated on my evaluation to ensure that everything was covered in a quantifiable way. Secondly, I believe that I was providing that development to my PL for when he was a CO CDR rating a 1SG and into the future.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 5:28 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:28:40 -0500

I received very minimal "training" during BOLC (previously OBC) that consisted of an afternoon of powerpoint slides. Like most things, you learn on the job. I did my first one last Fall for for my PSG, it was due to BN in December and I made sure to start working on it in September. I talked to my PSG, other PL's, the XO, the 1SG, and the CDR, to make sure I got their guidance on what bullet points were good to use, and how things needed to be phrased/worded as well as how things are ordered, and what good things to emphasize. I also talked with my PSG's previous platoon leader, to get copies of his previous NCOER's. However, with that you have to be careful that their opinion doesn't influence your own. Your relationship with the rated soldier may not be the same as their previous rater, and they may have developed between rating periods. I used the previous NCOER essentially to grab the Duty Description. Other than that, there are multiple excellent books and websites giving examples of bullet points that are good to work off of (DO NOT COPY WORD FOR WORD - MAKE IT GENUINE). It's a learning experience, but any leader worth their weight in salt will put some time and dedication into developing a good NCOER, your PSG works hard for you, you should damn sure work hard for them.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 5:51 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:51:13 -0500

I had a block of intruction in ROTC, but I had no idea what I was looking at. We didn't even cover it in BOLC. First time I saw an NCOER was when I was senior rater for a Team Leader. And to this day I've only written 2 NCOERs for my PSGs. But, as much as I struggle with them I will also turn to an NCO for help.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 6:28 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 18:28:41 -0500

I really wouldn’t consider what we
did in BOLC as training in regards to NCOERs. We breezed through the topic in BOLC.
The only thing they really emphasized in class was quantifying bullets. I had
no idea what I was doing when I had to counsel my first NCO and write my first
NCOER but fortunately I had great mentors (NCOs) who trained and developed me
in the correct process. With their guidance, I learned what a DA 2166-8-1 (NCO
Counseling and Support Form) was and I also learned the importance of giving
your NCO an initial counseling as well as their quarterly counselings. It also
makes writing NCOERs easier since everything is already on paper.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 10:49 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 22:49:06 -0500

I've done ncoer classed with LTs, and they look at the material like its something they never heard of. Not sure if they get any training at all, or if they do, they don't have that foresight, confidence or courage to truly rate their NCO. But on the other hand, they automatically outrank all NCOs and are ultimately put in charge or in command of their element, so they need to learn.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 10:53 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 22:53:52 -0500

I know what the regulation states, I guess I should've been more clear about whom I was asking this question too, I was directing this to the officers due to the fact that I've seen a lot of 2LT and 1LT who did not have a clue about NCOERS.

Now for the NCO's that say they write the NCOER and give it to the LT you are not doing your duty mentoring your LT and for the comment about the 1SG rating PSG's I'm not sure which DA pam or AR you are reading but I have yet to see where it states in the regulation that the 1SG rates PSG.

The reason I posted this question is for the senior NCOs to see what the responses were from the officers when it come to an evaluation that will effect your career so lets help these officers..

AIRBORNE ATW!!!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 11:00 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 23:00:20 -0500

From commission through the Career Course the OES provides Officers a few hours of discussion and 2 practical exercises on NCOERs and writing them. MSG Bailey and MSG Stankovich provided you the correct answer that it is the 1SG and CSM that review NCOERs and not write them. If these Senior NCOs are writing NCOERs we are effectively removing the Check and Balance from the rating system.
I was fortunate that I also had PLDC, BNCOC, and ANCOC along with some strong Senior NCOs that helped me learn to write NCOERs. As for my technique as an Officer I would have the rated NCO and myself draft bullets at the same time based on the counselings throughout the period and the Support Form. This provides the NCO training on crafting bullets and it allows us to come together and discuss and craft quantifiable bullets. My Senior NCOs and I rarely had NCOERs coming back for correction once submitted.
As for teaching my Officers how to write NCOERs it happened in review. I would check their counseling packets of their PSG just as I expected the 1SG and PSGs to be checking Squad Leader's counseling packets. I expected them to keep a draft NCOER at all times with goals and achievements. This allowed me to educate my Officers and allow them to craft discussions with their Senior NCO.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 2:00 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 02:00:49 -0500

You are 100% correct they don't get trained in writing NCOERs - that is our job as senior NCOs. I just sat both of my Platoon Leaders down and we went through the counseling procedure for their Platoon Sergeants. I took a 2166-8-1 and filled it up about 75% with areas I know they need to be focusing on. I left room in each section for them to add their own goals.

I forced them to see how the counseling should go, what the focus should be and as we work through the process they will get trained on proper counseling and writing a good strong NCOER.

Response by MSG Cameron Davis made Feb 8 at 2014 4:28 AM

MSG Cameron Davis — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 04:28:03 -0500

I have always followed the philosophy the LTs are PVTs with shinny things.  Sorry LTs but what I am trying to say is that, in the same way it is an NCOs job to train JR Soldiers, it is the Senior NCOs job to train the JR Officers.  As a Platoon Sergeant, I always took personal responsibility to keep my LT on the right path.  This includes counseling and NCOERs. I also believe that how a Platoon Sergeant trains his LT (same for his Soldiers) at their first duty station molds what kind of Office (Soldier) he or she will be in the future.  That said SFC Ward, if the LTs you have come into contact with recently have no idea about NCOER, I am sad to say that I think it is a direct reflection of our NCO corps.  Please take them under you wing and show them the light!  

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 10:29 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 10:29:15 -0500

Unfortunately next to none, and even worse they are expected to show up and write evaluations for their counterparts? Nothing scares me more but a good development tool I use for both the officer and senior NCO is for both to write the evaluation and then bring them in to discuss with me what each one came up with. It provides honest feed back to the rated and always gives the Rater an opportunity to better understand how writing evaluations for NCOs works. I have spent countless hours providing mentorship to officers on writing evaluations and have even assisted them in completing the final draft when dealing with a less than productive NCO. I truly wish the officer basic course would spend more time in this arena it would pay dividends to our NCOs futures and careers.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2014 8:22 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 08:22:45 -0500

I would say that it truly all depends on your BOLC and your instructors within that class. I was fortunate to have a very strong Platoon trainer and Platoon Sergeant in IBOLC that made it a point to give a strong class on the topic (yes it was only one day of classes). In addition to a strong class they provided us with products from their own initial counseling with each other as well as NCOER's they had worked on together. While we only had one day of training on the topic in IBOLC my instructors attempted to make sure we got the most out of that one day as possible.

Outside of IBOLC the rest of my training on the subject has been "OJT". I was very lucky to have 1SG Rink as my first 1SG and like he said above he saw it as part of his duty to help the young LT's learn what right looks like when counseling a PSG and writing NCO evaluations.

Unfortunately BOLC is forced to put priorities on so much different training that it is difficult to spend the neccessary amount of time on over 90% of the admin functions required of you as a young officer. IBOLC is 16 weeks long without a second of down time (minus your weekends) and I still felt like a fish out of water when I took my first platoon. Property accountability, counseling, evaluations, awards, and UCMJ/Silly soldier issues are just a few of things that we barely breezed over but consume a majority of your time. I agree that it would be great to have learned some of the nuances of these things in depth, but I also understand the time constraint the cadre face to develop capable officers within their branch.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2014 2:17 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Oct 2014 14:17:30 -0400

While LTs need to learn such skills, just as any Sergeant, in my opinion, they should only give letter input until they have more experience; for example as a Captain or a Staff Sergeant.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2014 2:24 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Oct 2014 14:24:24 -0400

SFC Ward...I also think there is too much emphasis on narratives unless the intent of the report card is a historical record for future generations. Otherwise you are either a Keeper or Catch and Release... I'd rather rate people:
1. Is physically fit according to standards
2. Meets or exceeds all other military standards,/technically and tactically proficient.
3. Is (OK) (Outstanding) (Beyond Expectations) in the _____ specialty.
4. a. Discharge/Retire. b. Retain. c. Promote d. Promote ahead of peers
5. Justification (no more than five lines) .
a. This soldier is the proverbial Beetle Bailey, with no future potential. DX now.
b. This soldier has potential; not ready for prime time.
c. This soldier is a leader now. Send to school/training.
d. This soldier deserves greater opportunities beyond schooling; the Army needs him/her now.