M/F training at PISC is the same now. Is it time for Marine boot camp to have coed companies & series? Please explain why or why not.

MSgt George Cater — Wed, 11 Jan 2017 22:30:56 -0500

Response by SFC George Smith made Jan 11 at 2017 10:48 PM

SFC George Smith — Wed, 11 Jan 2017 22:48:48 -0500

I think the Basic Training aspect is Just That ... Basic Combat Training.
It gets every on the same level and installs the fundamentals of what The Marines are all about and that they need to be able to all do the basics ...and It would help break the stigmatism of the separations in the genders ...
but as most of the Females are going into combat support or service support the remainder of the training will have to be up top standards... in the specific MOS's

Response by Cpl Mark A. Morris made Jan 11 at 2017 10:56 PM

Cpl Mark A. Morris — Wed, 11 Jan 2017 22:56:42 -0500

MSgt,
Are you referring to the gender neutral PFT? Does that extend into 5th phase? Are humps still 10 and 20 Miles?

Where does Force Recon Reaper get their new bodies from if their PFT is still the same? Or, did their tryouts no longer involve runs with sand in the pack and they no longer have swimming under water for G-d knows how long.

How are we going to kick the enemies arse in hand to hand combat, if Marines only have to do 6 pull ups?

Thank you,

M. Morris RVT

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2017 12:26 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Jan 2017 00:26:37 -0500

MSgt George Cater I went through MCRD San Diego in June 1968, and did not see any Women Marine Platoons. I worked with active duty and veteran women during my civilian career. These women impressed me with their dedication to seeing the job done right. I see no reason why it could not work.

Response by MAJ Montgomery Granger made Jan 12 at 2017 3:21 AM

MAJ Montgomery Granger — Thu, 12 Jan 2017 03:21:03 -0500

I think for combat arms, including Special Forces (and I include the USMC as Special Forces), should train and fight separately. From around the ages of 12-13 years old boys and girls are separated in competitive sports. We do this for many reasons, but mainly because men and women are DIFFERENT. Denying basic biological and physiological facts in order to fulfill some politically correct ideal ignores the PURPOSE and FUNCTION of combat arms - to fight and win wars. Mixed teams, which you may see in recreational sports leagues, church leagues and college intramurals, are for fun, not for all the marbles. There is a REASON why there are no women in the NFL, NBA, MLB or NHL. It doesn't mean women can't play football, basketball, baseball or hockey competitively, it means their level of play is not as effective. However, these professional leagues represent less than one percent of male athletes, the very best. The very best female athletes can beat over 90 percent of all men. If a competitive sports team loses a game the consequences could be a bruised ego. In battle, losers die. Women have been successfully integrated into the combat support and combat service support role of Military Police in the Army for over thirty years and have proven themselves effective in combat in these roles, and some, such as SGT Leigh Ann Hester, Silver Star winner from a 2004 action in Iraq, have demonstrated combat skill above and beyond expectations. The best I think we can do is offer combat arms an Special Forces opportunities for women in segregated units. You want to fight with everything on the line, then do it together, just like sports. Women are accustomed to all female competitive activities. The best female teams can beat almost all male teams. Let women design their own uniforms, equipment, supplies and weapons. Keep common ammunition, but let women design and use weapons effective for them. I am sure that over time the best females will rise to the level of an effective and elite fighting force - together.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2017 9:49 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Jan 2017 09:49:15 -0500

Personally I say no, I worked at Ft. Knox before the moved BCT to Benning and it was all male, the standard were much higher than the 2 years I spent at Jackson with coed BCT. It was culture shock to me, plus the head aches were multiplied by 10. Allot of young men and women looking for sex etc at Jackson. When I went to Leonardwood as and engineer basic was segregated by sex. Just saying the problems are just worse.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Jan 12 at 2017 10:52 AM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Thu, 12 Jan 2017 10:52:47 -0500

No. The simple answer is because males and females aren't in a 50/50 split. Imagine splitting 4th Battalion between the 1st 3 male battalions. Now you've got platoons of 50 males and like 2 or 3 females. That is an instant recipe for disaster.

I'm not foolish enough to think sexual assaults/rapes won't happen. You've got young people in the sexual prime of their life in a hormonally charged environment. Things are going to happen.

Until they've fully been instilled with our Corps values of Honor, Courage, and Commitment, they don't rate to train together. They're still nasty civilians stuck in their nasty civilian ways.

Response by Cpl D L Parker made Jan 12 at 2017 9:08 PM

Cpl D L Parker — Thu, 12 Jan 2017 21:08:41 -0500

I'll pop my gourd, my soup cooler would be stuck open. If I see women next to men at boot camp. Men/ women act different around each other men more macho women more feminine. The standards for men would be compromised. The logistics of housing would worsting. There is a reason schools keep boys and girls separate.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2017 9:03 AM

LCpl Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Jan 2017 09:03:30 -0500

Distraction ... youthbeing what it is having women training alongside during boot camp would just add a "hormonal" factor into a recruits concentration. My opinion is solely sexual in nature. Do we really need recruits showing off on the Confidence Course or Obstacle Course? Flirting at chow? Speaking only as someone who remembers what its like being an 18 year old male, Could a 18 year old healthy male recruit NOT watch the tight ass of the female recruit in front of him doing side straddle hops, bends and mother f**ker? For those who want to interject that the Army, Navy, Air Force is already doing it I can only say " They're not the Marine Corps". There is always some study going on that someone wants to know why or how to bring their level of training up to Corps level and maybe the Co-ed training is one of the factors. This is not about gender equality, this is about youth and hormones and distraction in an environment that is meant to prepare them for war and not getting killed. .if the training is the same then what is the problem with separating the genders to take away any distractions.

Response by Cpl Don "GUNNY" Miller made Jan 18 at 2017 3:18 PM

Cpl Don "GUNNY" Miller — Wed, 18 Jan 2017 15:18:35 -0500

NO and if I have to explain you wouldn't understand anyway!

Response by SSgt Brad Becker made Jan 18 at 2017 10:44 PM

SSgt Brad Becker — Wed, 18 Jan 2017 22:44:08 -0500

Hell no, we don't need a bunch of Horny 18-27 year olds taking showers in the rest room together. The barracks in the Marine boot camp are open squad bays not like the army has at some bases. You sleep together, bath together, crap together, stand at attention in your underware together. Why the hell would you want men and women in the same room. To sleep and bath! If you had any thing different it would not build platoon comradery. Boot camp could still not be the same if the men and women where in different rooms. The DI's can't be in to places at once. One sex would be tortured more then the other. It still would not be the same. Separate but equal is the best way like it has been since 1941. Each sex can concentrate on making themselves the best Marines they can be. You bring man / woman relationships into it at boot camp there is no way to control that they would concentrate as well as they do now. USMC Retired

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2017 11:46 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Jan 2017 23:46:20 -0500

There is no way that I see this as a good idea. My wife and I are both Marines and both agree on this. Men and women are built very differently both physically, mentally, and emotionally. With men/women training together in boot camp is just a disaster waiting to happen. It is the same in most combat units. Men trying to protect women, women trying to prove they don't need help. compromises the whole mission. Do women need to be combat trained YES. If you haven't noticed the entire sandbox is a combat zone. everyone on the ground needs to be trained in tactics and maneuvers. BUT BOOT CAMP NEEDS TO BE KEPT SEPORATE.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2017 12:29 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Jan 2017 00:29:42 -0500

Let me get this right. You are asking this delicate question for a reason and so far you've gotten everyone either riled up or just confused. But let's just get to the point of no return shall we. Is it time for the United States Marine Corps Boot camps at Paris Island, South Carolina and San Diego, California have COED Companies & Series? Good question and food for thought. I would basically say not at this time in our lifetime. Why? There's many reasons why it shouldn't be but there's also many reasons that it can be. Look, Master Sergeant George Cater, you and I have been in spots where we had Women Marines in areas where they shouldn't have been. But they were there. I've had the privilege and honor to go to MCRD, San Diego for my basic training in 1972 and 14 years later at The Basic School, Warrant Officers Class I-86. We had females in each of our platoons. I believe we had 5 platoons. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. They did everything that we males did except take a shower with us or bedded down with us. Why does it work at TBS, OCS and not at your Basic Training? At TBS, OCS you have people who want to become leaders of Marines. Not just any off the wall LT. But Marine Lieutenants. As for our younger people, they're bright young men and women who would just get in trouble because nature said they can and are willing to take the risks if it means getting kicked out of boot camp. I had Women Marines working for us at every level you could think of, but not in a Combat Arms MOS. It can be done, but what is the fundamental reason for the change? To make everyone equal and political correct. I don't think so. Every Marine is a Rifleman First. Well if this was true then why do we have women being pushed into something that they may not want at all? Maybe we should change our Marine Corps verbiage to Every Marine can be a Rifleman or women if they can cut the blade. I have seen in my 21 years plus in our Corps that some females are a heck of a lot better than our male ones. But to a certain degree. Have ever ask yourself why we don't have a female Commandant or Assistant Commandant of the Marine Corps? You got it. We as in our Corps is not ready to do that nor I personally think that we as in I would not want to see this happening in my lifetime. Call me whatever name you want to, but remember shit always rolls downhill and not up. This Marine Gunner's own opinion. Thank you Master Sergeant Cater for stirring up Hornets nest you Devil Dog!
Semper Fidelis p,
James K.

Response by CSM William Payne made Jan 22 at 2017 9:16 PM

CSM William Payne — Sun, 22 Jan 2017 21:16:19 -0500

As one that has been involved in both the first failed attempt and the eventual "success" of integrated basic training in the United States Army, I have some insite into this issue.

The original intent of the policy was that in Combat Support and Combat Service Support units, both males and females would be assigned to and work together, so putting them in an integrated environment in basic combat training (BCT) would assist in expediting this transition.

In the integrated BCT environment males and females do not share sleeping and hygiene facilities. In the company area they are separated at night and all of the females sleep in the same Bay Area, which is off limits to the males and then are integrated back into the platoons for training day. When going through CIF, the males and females are separated for clothing issue nor do they share the same areas for physical exams.

In the original concept, there were three platoons of males and one platoon of females that were never integrated at the platoon level. This was a complete failure. The physical limitations of the females always dictated that road marches and similar physical training the females were always being left behind. During most other types of training the disparity lessened and in some cases the females excelled over the men. But because they remained separated throughout training, this never truely accomplished the mission of "integrating" the Soldiers. This first attempt at training "together but separately" was deemed a failure and was discontinued.

The second iteration which has been pretty much in use since, the females are truly integrated within the platoon concept with the males with the exception of the above noted sleeping and and hygiene areas at night.

Of course there are and will always be advantages and disadvantages to this training. There will always be exceptions but for the most part the males are more physically capable than the females in basic. As mentioned before, the road marches have to be adjusted for the average shorter heights of the females which may not challenge many of the males to the extent they need to be. On the plus side I have seen many female trainees make excellent peer instructors in other areas of training where a need for a higher degree of patience and concentration are required. In the field environment, the males and females which have been paired into Buddy teams with same sex Soldiers, the environment is adopted to ensure as much privacy as the environment will allow. Different sexes don't share tents: latrines, showers and the like are either male or female or are to be used by one sex or the other but not simultaneously.

And in all cases training together basic does expedite that integration of both sexes to the military environment that they will find themselves in the AIT, when assigned to their first duty assignments and beyond.

Integrated Combat Arms units are a whole other area of discussion.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2017 3:06 PM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:06:24 -0500

Absolutely NOT, Not now not ever. They need to keep it separate. I do not agree to allowing women in combat units. So there. I said it. Combat units need to be Male. Support units yes, training the same, Yes. But infantry units NO.

Response by LCpl Michael Cappello made May 30 at 2018 12:04 PM

LCpl Michael Cappello — Wed, 30 May 2018 12:04:50 -0400

Are you freaking kidding me??? Let's just take a bunch of young people, who are all full of hormones, and force them into a coed situation. Boot camp is hard enough and stressful enough without the added temptation of sex. Standing on line for showers should be an eye opener. Early morning Rose Garden parties as well. These young recruits do not need a system that is designed for them to fail.

Response by 1SG John Millan made Feb 23 at 2024 12:48 PM

1SG John Millan — Fri, 23 Feb 2024 12:48:21 -0500

The Marine Corps has self inflicted so many wounds and so damaged itself, it’s a moot point: lowered TBS standards coed boot camp, no opposition to cross dressers, no snipers, no armor, no engineers. It’s basically USMC light or Army plus. SMH