What is your rationale for the continuation of teaching manual gunnery?

SSG George Keck — Wed, 01 May 2024 21:35:20 -0400

My rationale for the continuation of teaching manual gunnery is so that a "skilled" FDC person could still determine "reasonably accurate" (HE/Q only) firing data if all electronic means is in the toilet. This is never a complete solution, however an FA unit with guns that don't go boom, is merely a massive target-to-be. Do you agree with this rationale?

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made May 2 at 2024 12:20 AM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Thu, 02 May 2024 00:20:03 -0400

It has been my experience, the fancier and more complicated a piece of electronics is the more likely it will fail the very moment you need it the most! Knowing how to do something "old school" is not a bad ace to have in the hole.

Response by SPC James Neidig made May 2 at 2024 1:54 AM

SPC James Neidig — Thu, 02 May 2024 01:54:59 -0400

The Modern Military Relies Too Much On Electronic Devices !!!
If An Enemy Uses An Electromagnetic Device And Wipes Out Our Electronics We Have To Be Able To Continue The Fight.
How Many Of Our Soldiers Will Know How To Fight Without Using Electronic Devices,
No GPS, No Radios, No Computers And No Motor Vehicles.
They Need To Teach How To Fight Without The Use Of Electronic Devices.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made May 2 at 2024 8:13 AM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Thu, 02 May 2024 08:13:40 -0400

Yes. I was in during the very start of GPS for navigation. I still carried a compass.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made May 2 at 2024 10:28 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Thu, 02 May 2024 10:28:57 -0400

Example: 2003 I was the V Corps Rear G3 SGM. The G3 section had gone electronic with all the maps and tracking. Before deploying we had put together maps of the AO. When setting up I told my OPS NCOIC even though they were tracking electronic, I wanted the maps kept current every 12 hrs, but only to BDE level and above. War kicks off, temps get so hot all the electronics crash. The CoS comes to me, telling me the Rear CG can't follow the battle. I calmly tell him I got a map, the CoS does a double take asks where the map is, I say in the back room, kept current every 12 hrs to BDE level and above. I got the map up front, the CG was happy, the CoS had his ass back and everyone was happy because I had my plan B. You always have a plan "B" because electronics can fail.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made May 2 at 2024 10:31 AM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Thu, 02 May 2024 10:31:17 -0400

Back in the 80s when I was a HHB CO in 8 inch Bn. The new FDC soldiers came back from Sill with only TAC fire training. We had to give them training with sticks and charts

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 2 at 2024 12:46 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Thu, 02 May 2024 12:46:55 -0400

And do fools actually think that computers/etc. won't be 1st legitimate targets. Can see it now- "Oh Sorry, Fire request denied- we are having technical issues".

Response by SSG Dale London made May 2 at 2024 1:45 PM

SSG Dale London — Thu, 02 May 2024 13:45:01 -0400

My response is three simple letters: E M P
However hardened your system is supposed to be against EMP, there is no guarantee that it will survive one. If it doesn't and you have mastered manual gunnery, you are still combat effective. If you haven't, then you become a liability to the mission.
Technology can fail. The enemy is not going to stop just because your fancy electronics give up the ghost or your batteries die.

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made May 2 at 2024 1:50 PM

MSG Thomas Currie — Thu, 02 May 2024 13:50:59 -0400

Yours is the main reason to keep teaching manual gunnery as a required basic skill.

My own thinking is about teaching it as a higher skill. In many MOS there are things that computers do for us -- the computers do those things faster and more accurately -- as you point out, if you don't know the basic process you are always "at the mercy of a single fuse" but another significant issue is that if something goes wrong and you don't understand the process you can't even tell someone what is wrong beyond a neanderthal-level "it's busted" and you are completely useless at troubleshooting

One more reason for understanding the process is that we need to constantly improve the system. No one expects any artilleryman to design the next better fire control system or a tanker to design the next better tank fire control system, but where do you think the USEFUL ideas for a better system are going to come from? The computer programmers have no idea what we need, we have to tell them "what" so they can work on the "how" but if we don't understand the process we won't know what to ask for or how to describe the issue we are asking them to solve.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2024 7:31 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Jun 2024 19:31:14 -0400

20 plus years in. Multiple MOSQ. To this day, I still goto the field with a compass, map, protractor, and pair of binoculars. More than once doing warrior tasks and drills our GPS, BFT, or Comms have gone down while out in the middle of nowhere. One occasion pulled out my Binoculars to find landmarks and Had to pull out the old analog "sticks and stones" to figure out not only were we were but how to get to point B. My troops just looked at my like I was mad till I pointed to my map and said we are here. Had a remedial land nav course when we got back to camp by their request.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 9 at 2024 8:22 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Jul 2024 08:22:05 -0400

With all my years of being FA, I've been on M102, M198, and M777, manual gunnery is a lost art. We still teach it and use it. It is still apart of our FA tables. I have seen mission computers on the howitzers fail, AFATADS, and CENTURS take a crap. You have to have a back up. We had a real world scenario this year during an ODT mission in Poland where we did get jammed by Russia assets. We went back to charts and darts. Electronics will fail or be completely wrong. People will forget equipment regardless of rank. Manual gunnery will always be needed.