Many military personnel have a respect for civilian police yet MPs are possibly the most reviled Soldiers in the military. Why?

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 12:13:28 -0400

Response by MAJ Andrew Ready made May 21 at 2016 12:16 PM

MAJ Andrew Ready — Sat, 21 May 2016 12:16:09 -0400

good question. must be the rank thing. seniors don't like being corrected by juniors. I respect authority so when i'm wrong, i accept it. just my opinion.

Response by AN Monte Pritchett made May 21 at 2016 12:20 PM

AN Monte Pritchett — Sat, 21 May 2016 12:20:37 -0400

Why??? Just another uniform! I'm doing it.

Response by SFC Pete Kain made May 21 at 2016 12:33 PM

SFC Pete Kain — Sat, 21 May 2016 12:33:02 -0400

You have to 21 to be a civilian cop, only 18 to be an MP. Some, not all go off on a power trip. Not knocking the MP's just an observation.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made May 21 at 2016 12:38 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sat, 21 May 2016 12:38:06 -0400

We Didn't have MPs in the Navy when I was in. We had Master at Arms and you had to be an E-5 before applying for this Job Specialty so you already had a small degree of Military Authority so that set them apart from about any other job field. They were usually already experienced Sailors, Boatswains Mates or Gunners Mates were common rates that moved into the Master at Arms Field. Also in the Navy a Master at Arms could be a Collateral Duty (Secondary), In DC my Primary Job was DIVO/DIV Chief/Leading Petty Officer for CNO WWMCCS Tech Control but my Secondary Duty was as Master at Arms to Chief of Staff Commander Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command. (All Flag Officers "Admirals" had a Cook and Master at Arms assigned to them). AS MAA to COMSPAWARSYSCOM my job was mostly Ceremonial to include Presenting the Accused in Article 15 Proceedings.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made May 21 at 2016 1:17 PM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Sat, 21 May 2016 13:17:14 -0400

Sometimes I think it's due to the arrogance some MP's show to others.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 1:32 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 13:32:41 -0400

My opinion is based on the period from Oct 1964-May 1970. If the civilian police issued a ticket for minor infractions of civilian law, my memory is that a soldiers unit was not notified. If an MP made a report of any infraction, the only ones receiving the report were the soldiers unit. This directly affected the individual's promotion potential. Another reason could possibly be that while the authority exercised in the unit by numerous NCO's and OFFICERS was daily, any authority by anyone outside the unit was similar to "authority OVERLOAD". A PFC MP stopping a E-7/E-8 for a traffic violation would be hard to swallow for the offender, so a PFC having ANY AUTHORITY over a senior service member is dicey . Any MP on a power trip is a danger to the whole military community.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made May 21 at 2016 1:33 PM

Capt Seid Waddell — Sat, 21 May 2016 13:33:23 -0400

Because the MPs, SPs, and APs are the ones that enforce the chickens**t rules and regulations that no one else takes seriously.

One example was on the road from the North Gate to our radar site on Eglin AFB; it was a narrow, lightly traveled paved road through the woods with a ridiculous speed limit. One morning the APs set up a speed trap and nailed our Col.

Our FCA Capt. thought that it was a remarkably chicken bust, so he took the FCA vehicle with the directional antennas out and nailed the AP for radiating without a permit.
We all enjoyed that one.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 1:41 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 13:41:59 -0400

1) Because Non-MP Officers / Senior NCOs cant tell us what to do on the Job
2) Because we can and Do Write up or Apprehend said Non-MP Officers and Senior NCOs
3) MP need to think for themselves The Army as a culture does not like getting second guessed or being told they are wrong by a lower ranking Service Member.
4) If we are coming towards them they probably did something wrong.
5) MPs will correct something even when others walk on by.
6) We hold ourselves to a higher standard.
7) We SCARE the crap out of them. For any of the above reasons or others not recounted

Response by Maj John Bell made May 21 at 2016 3:13 PM

Maj John Bell — Sat, 21 May 2016 15:13:15 -0400

I only had one lengthy contact with the MP's. It was at Camp Pendleton. I was a 2ndLT in a Rifle Battalion going through pre-deployment work-ups. My wife and I lived on base at the North end (San Onofre MOQ). The Hospital was at the south end. I was in the field when my wife went into labor.

I don't know how they got involved but when I made it to my quarters the two MP's were there to help. They helped me get her in my POV. The Corporal cautioned me to drive carefully to the Hospital and offered to provide a lights and siren escort. He then took off like a bat out of Hell. I don't think he ever checked his rear view mirror. I lost him before we ever got out of the MOQ area. I drove the speed limit and only saw him as he occasionally crested a hill on Basilone Rd, with lights still going.

22 Hours later, after my daughter was born, I unwisely drove home. At that point I'd been awake about 40 hours. I made it home, but fell asleep in the foyer with my feet sticking out the front door. The same MP's responded. I guess a neighbor thought I was drunk or dead. The two Marines got me to my couch, took off my boots, offered me congratulations and left; closing the door behind them. I think MP's are just peachy.

Response by SFC Marcus Belt made May 21 at 2016 3:20 PM

SFC Marcus Belt — Sat, 21 May 2016 15:20:05 -0400

Because when the cops show up, you're either already having, or about to have, a really bad day.

Because no one really thinks that speed traps are for safety.

Because I've had my car searched at a "DUI Checkpoint" while coming onto post to buy groceries, and AGAIN on my way off post with a ton of refrigerated items.

Because the value they provide is almost entirely unseen, but every negative is RIGHT-FREAKIN'-HERE!!!

I missed some, I'm sure.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 3:27 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 15:27:23 -0400

MSG Private RallyPoint Member Ignorance is part of it, I guess. But also the esteem by many military members. I am sure ATC in the tower, weather and Intell may feel they (MPs) are on the lower tiers. To me, the ground-pounders and SP.MPs are the best. This coming from a Meteorologist. We are merely ancilliary members.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 7:03 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 19:03:52 -0400

Show me the polling data.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made May 21 at 2016 7:22 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Sat, 21 May 2016 19:22:09 -0400

I wouldn't say reviled by a long stretch. I will say there was a certain disdain for them back in the day more due to how things played out when we'd pull our ship off the gun line and into Subic or wherever. It was a local MP at the bottom of the gangway that wouldn't let you walk 20 feet to get a cold Coke because you wen't in the uniform of the day. MPs were quickly put into the REMF category. We never saw any MPs forward so it got reinforced.

An irony is at Camp Pendleton they'd take Marines they didn't trust with a weapon and assign them to be game wardens. Surprise, they'd have "issues" doing that as well like you're in the wrong area while holding the map upside down. I was so glad they weren't armed but they were always tepid having to deal with armed hunters.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 8:59 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 20:59:45 -0400

Was the Commo chief for 463rd MP Company and deployed with them to Iraq twice. I have met some great guys and gals who were MPs. But I will say they have an arrogance about themselves that rivals no other. It's like they are thought to be self centered dicks in AIT. And that crap about we hold ourselves to a higher standard only applies at the recruiting station because they can have any law violations or have smoked weed to enlist. After that they are some of the worst soldiers as far as standard and discipline go. But civilian cops have the same attitude problem I don't discriminate.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 11:11 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 23:11:55 -0400

Not to diminish the career field. I believe civilian cops get more respect due to the scope of their job over an MP or AF term SF. A civilian cop deals with more BS than the mil counterpart at home. Civilian cop has to deal with not knowing if the people they encounter will try to kill them. No one on base is out thugging around, robbing the Class 6 at gun point or the BX. Yes I know there have been armed robberies on base, but those are super rare. Ironically, one time it happened when two people tried to rob the BX cash cage at gun point were off duty AF cops.

The most crime on base with some rare exception is a dependent and sometimes a SM shoplifting at the BX or Commissary. Occasionally there are domestic issues in housing. But for the most part the base is pretty safe. When a cop pulls someone over on base they know its most likely a current or former service member.

Take the civilian cop off base who is dealing with thugs, armed robberies, armed disturbances all of the time.

Now having said that I know now a lot of mil cops have gone over seas to OIF/OEF and deal with serious terrorists. I think they garnered a little more respect because of that.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made May 21 at 2016 11:16 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Sat, 21 May 2016 23:16:46 -0400

MSG Private RallyPoint Member Because 'young' members of the military do more stupid things than the average civilian! I always plead Article 31and managed to escape charges!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2016 12:19 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 May 2016 00:19:32 -0400

MP's get driven to the ground when they work the road. working a 15ish hour shift then going in for a PT test, UA or a range will make anyone angry.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2016 12:36 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 May 2016 00:36:44 -0400

Because only an MP will give you a ticket for 26 in a 25.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made May 22 at 2016 9:04 AM

SSG Warren Swan — Sun, 22 May 2016 09:04:46 -0400

Well when you can walk into a room and everyone STFU...you're doing something right
When you respond to a domestic call, and later on you are thanked by one or both from the family you, doing something right
When your unit calls US (NOT the other way around) to come and inspect your barracks with K9's, you're not doing something right. REMEMBER it's YOUR unit calling us.
When you hear "Do you know who I am" or my favorite "do you know who my SM spouse works for"? Ma'am/Sir please sign here so I can give you this ticket.
In Bosnia I carried more weaponry and ammo than the average infantry platoon. Good thing I had a vehicle cuz I'm NOT humping that shit anywhere. The Stan was even worse. More weapons and WAY more ammo.
SM's think that their rank outranks my ticket book....yeah...sucks to be them. Sign here please.
The MP Corps is the ONLY job where you have to interact on a personal and professional level where 90% of the folks are trained killers.
MP's throw the best parties....who are you going to call on em?
We're the ONLY MOS where you pull a woman over for something, and by the time you get to the car, she's crying, yelling, both, or my favorite (when this happened, I called the Patrol Sup to witness this mess), the blouse is suddenly more "open", and the skirt is a little higher. Once we got back to the patrol car, we laughed our asses off, and she STILL got three tickets.
If you ever go to MP AIT and look at the reclasses, you'll notice that A LOT of them were infantry or combat arms. Now if you're broken and cannot hump anymore I get it, but when I went through we had two full platoons of grunts reclassing. They said they wanted a job that would directly transfer into the civilian sector.

Response by Capt Hansel Bumgarner made May 22 at 2016 9:32 AM

Capt Hansel Bumgarner — Sun, 22 May 2016 09:32:38 -0400

I can't ever remember having a bad experience with MPs. My contact with both Marine MPs and Navy SPs was always positive. A roommate of mine got clocked doing about 80 through the ammo dump at Lejuene back in the mid 80s (he was a 1st LT) and the MPs let him go. I personally thought that was pretty generous of them and probably didn't want to hassle with the paperwork.

Response by SPC Brian Mason made May 22 at 2016 2:07 PM

SPC Brian Mason — Sun, 22 May 2016 14:07:48 -0400

I may be wrong, but the MP's jurisdiction only covers on post/base. Like any policeman/woman they patrol and whatever else they do on duty. Since their range is limited then they might be seen as lazy. People get tickets on post, but it's their own fault for speeding or whatever. I don't hate them, they are doing their job, just like I had to do mine. Soldiers coming in to sick call and then getting a profile would often get reamed for it. Our LT wouldn't put someone on one unless he thought they needed it. Sometimes people hate the medics b/c we won't give them profiles or the 'good' pain medications. I'm not going to freely hand out narcotics nor an profile that's not needed.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 9:24 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 09:24:27 -0400

What I find funny is all the "they enforce chickensh**t rules, they set up DUI checkpoints and searched my car or the whole littany of petty BS I come to expect when we talk about Military Police soldiers.

Are there some bad ones out there? Yes! Do some go on powertrips? Yes.

But here is the skinny on all of it: If the Military Police were not out there 24/7 365 doing their jobs you guys would be on here cry sacking about how noone enforces the rules or standards. You have absolutely no pity for the Traffic Acccident Investigator who has to go out on a call because some joe's thought it'd be ok drink it up in the B's and then decide to make a beer run and plowed into someone killing themselves or someone's family. Nor do you empathize with any of the Investigators who have to go out to the sexual assaults, child abuses or domestic assault cases.

You guys come on here and bust balls on some private that wrote you a ticket because YOU were the one speeding, do you even know how retarded you sound? Or your mad by proxy because someone you know got a ticket? Really your mad because someone else got a ticket? That blows my mind!

I was an MP for 20 years and I treated everyone with respect. I never wrote a ticket that the person didn't have coming and I never filed a charge on someone who didn't have it coming.

So if you don't like the speed limit on post, don't complain to the MP's, complain to the Post Commander. Feel free to walk right in to his office and tell him his policies are "chickensh*t", chances are you aren't going to do that, but you'll spend 20 minutes trying to chew out a soldier for doing their J-O-B! Jesus people!

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made May 23 at 2016 10:25 AM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Mon, 23 May 2016 10:25:23 -0400

In my opinion, it's because for the most part they are glorified speed traps. No offense to any MPs here, but the only time I've seen them is when they are running radar. Civilian police might be easier to talk out of tickets but I don't think MPs are and I think they also report that stuff to your chain of command.

I don't know from firsthand experience. I've never had any run ins with law enforcement. But this is what I gathered the general impression of MPs to be.

Response by CPL Patrick Brewbaker made May 23 at 2016 2:00 PM

CPL Patrick Brewbaker — Mon, 23 May 2016 14:00:27 -0400

Because they stole our beer.

Response by SGT Greg Gold made May 23 at 2016 2:45 PM

SGT Greg Gold — Mon, 23 May 2016 14:45:13 -0400

I'm gonna chime in here with my perspective. I started my career in 1982 as an 11b, but I was MOSQ as a 95b by early 1986 and never worked as a grunt again. I've done active duty as an MP through the 80's, 90's, (got out in '94), and a little in the 2006-2013 period. Here goes:

1-Everyone who says we are swagger stick toting egocentric pricks with god like delusions is for the most part correct. Most E2-E4 MP's aren't old enough or have enough life experience to do the LE mission well. That's a lot of power wielded by a 20 year ole with no time in life. The same goes for civilian LEO's. It takes time to become seasoned.

2-See above. The Army did this to us because someone has to enforce standards. It's only gotten worse with the dumbing down of the civilian world and the 'everyone gets a trophy' mentality.

3-See #2. For the most part good Soldiers have nothing to fear from us. To bad Soldiers we are like a rash that won't go away. Like to speed? DWI much? You're gonna make friends real fast, just not the ones you want. Back in the day we used to hand out 1407's for 670-1 violations, but that's pretty much fallen by the way side in today's Army.

4-To clarify points #2 & #3 I'll say you have no idea how much scrutiny MP's are under. It's not like being a civilian LEO. On top of the LE aspect you have the military dimension to deal with. I know a E6 who left active duty (ETS'd), because of the way he was treated when he pulled over a O-4. After issuing the well deserved speeding ticket the 0-4 proceeded to berate the E-6 with a profanity laced tirade that broke all kinds of regs. The O-4 then proceeded to the PMO's office to personally lodge a complaint against the E-6. Long story short the E-6 was 100% in the right, and there was no disciplinary action taken. When the E-6 brought up the O-4's conduct, and stated that if he had acted in similar fashion they would have thrown the book at him, he was told to suck it up and drive on.

5-CO commanders don't enforce standards on their troops. This becomes known to at BN, BDE, and finally Division. Higher higher want's something done, now, and we get the details at guard mount. Don't want MP's buzzing around your unit like flies, take care of your own house.

Response by SPC David Glines made May 23 at 2016 2:55 PM

SPC David Glines — Mon, 23 May 2016 14:55:59 -0400

I don't know my two best friends in the Army were an MP and the other was CID and I was Infantry I was always told that MP'S and Infantry don't mix well sorry I couldn't help much

Response by SPC John Decker made May 23 at 2016 3:19 PM

SPC John Decker — Mon, 23 May 2016 15:19:46 -0400

I would imagine that because MPs have a finite area to patrol, and the CID handles investigations, the time pressure is less and therefore they (the MPs) can be more antagonistic. Just my thoughts on the issue. While I was in I never interacted with the MPs.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 3:52 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 15:52:41 -0400

it only takes one to maybe, a few, bad apples to make the whole 'bushel' crappy. There are DECENT MP's, the posts below prove it, but there are others that are far worse and give the MP's, as a whole, a very bad name. Same could be said for ANY MOS in the military. In light of this, 2 MP's pulled out a soldier caught with drugs in his barracks, BY HIS NECK, threw him on the ground, literally STEPPED ON HIS NECK while he was face down on the ground, and hog tied him with cuffs...cuffs around his ankles attached to cuffs on his wrists while behind his back...ok...WHY? I asked, the MP's said he was UN ARMED...............................Now, I've seen videos of the 'regular' civilian police do this, so, yes, I would say THESE 2 MP's gave the lot of the mp's a bad name.

Response by SPC Jeffrey Reese made May 23 at 2016 3:59 PM

SPC Jeffrey Reese — Mon, 23 May 2016 15:59:41 -0400

Here is a good one for you in 1987 Lost any respect for the MP's. I had turned left from my unit and went 2 blocks where it came to a T intersection. In front of the E club where their was an MP sitting I made another left and MP pulled in behind me and pulled me over. The MP came to my window and asked do you know how fast you were doing I said yes I was doing 15 mph he said the speed limit is 10 mph on that road. I told Him I had been stationed there for a year and have never seen a speed limit sign and the post rule is 15 when no sigh is posted. He told me there is a sign it was a block and a half up from where I turned on to the road. I asked him how I am supposed to know the speed limit there if it is posted so far away. He told me ignorance of the law is no excuse and wrote the ticket. My unit would put up sighs at the end of the lot stating the speed limit and the MP's would take them down we saw them do it and would sit in the lot waiting for some one to wright up.

Response by SFC William "Bill" Moore made May 23 at 2016 4:12 PM

SFC William "Bill" Moore — Mon, 23 May 2016 16:12:49 -0400

I did seven and a half years as an MP. The one thing I despised was being TOLD that I had to write tickets. That is something you MP beaters hadn't thought about, have you? I prided myself on doing every lawful thing I could to keep other soldiers out of the blotter. 2 tours in Korea, time in Germany and Panama, suffered numerous broken bones and stitches dealing with drunk and high soldiers. Suicides and suicide attempts, homicide or three, beaten, battered and sexually assaulted women and young children. But then that is nothing compared to civilian LE. In the years between 82-89, most of us didn't carry any of the non-lethal equipment like pepper spray, tazers and such. We would stand toe to toe with you, because it was our job. Getting hit was just part of it and I don't think I ever charged anyone with assault on officer. If I was the only one that got hit during an encounter, aside from you, I would more than likely turn you over the CQ. Not that there weren't P.O.S.'s in the ranks, there were, but there were a lot more like me than them.

Response by SSG John Jensen made May 23 at 2016 4:52 PM

SSG John Jensen — Mon, 23 May 2016 16:52:55 -0400

on Bragg the MPs from 18 Abn Corps are ass holes, the MPs from the 82d are nice guys that spend time in the field like the rest of us, and when they are on MP duty will tell you "I want you to drive real careful, drive straight back to the barracks and go to bed" and have a nice night.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 5:56 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 17:56:47 -0400

After recently having the privilage of working with the MPs during ACP guard, the perception I've always had of them being
"they abuse their authority, give tickets unnesseserally, disrespectful to anyone that isn't an MP, think they are part of Law and Order SVU, thinks everyone should now down to them"
only applies to about 10% of them. The majority of them are great Soldiers and I've seen them go out their way to help others in different situation.
Having said that, they are still the sworn enemy of the Infantry.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 8:18 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 20:18:37 -0400

I was in Security Forces as a Law Enforcement Specialist for 15 years. Patrolman, Traffic Accident Investigator, K9 Handler, and Flight Chief. I was trained very well, even by local and state police agencies. I have seen how people use their rank to intimidate because your "junior" to them. I did not enforce "rules", I enforced the UCMJ and Regulations. If you broke the UCMJ or regulations, that is on YOU. YOU should have never put yourself in that position, yet you blame me. Shame on you. Under the UCMJ, I had the AUTHORITY to give lawful orders, to detain you, and apprehend you when you screwed up. I have stopped people for speeding 10 MPH and over, unless it was in HOUSING area with children playing (your kids were safer because of me, your welcome). I stood post in the blazing heat of the day, the freezing cold of night, holidays, and down days to make sure you and your dependents were SAFE. I have responded to a lot of calls, domestics, assaults, suicides, major traffic accidents, and the list goes on. I have been called every name in the book, yet when you need me, I'm there. You hate me when your the suspect, but love me when your the victim. Hypocrites at the finest. In the 15 years, I have ONLY had two people say "THANK YOU". It is a tough and thankless job. We see the good, bad, and ugly of the military members and dependents. Yet, despite your feelings toward us, we will put our lives on the line for you and your dependents.

Response by SPC Donn Sinclair made May 23 at 2016 8:20 PM

SPC Donn Sinclair — Mon, 23 May 2016 20:20:50 -0400

It's been a while, but when I was in there were usually two reasons MP's were actively disliked. One, we did as the Provost Marshall ordered. If he said write up for one MPH over, that's what we did. Go against the PM and you'd wind up as a turn key in the stockade, or transferred to an infantry unit. Second, like everywhere else in life, we had a few guys who got off jerking people around. I used to counsel these guys that the armband and black helmet liner won't keep you from getting your ass whipped. Sometimes they listened, sometimes they didn't.

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 9:25 PM

CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 21:25:18 -0400

It's funny, all of the MPs I've dealt with here on Bragg have been cool (with two exceptions) but most of the civilian cops I've dealt with have been on serious power trips. From experience, I really don't like the boys in blue, but I've learned to give MPs the benefit of the doubt.

Response by SGT C Mendez made May 23 at 2016 9:40 PM

SGT C Mendez — Mon, 23 May 2016 21:40:08 -0400

I have only been stopped by one MP during my career. He was a fellow NCO and treated me with respect. He wasn't smug or anything but in the end, I just think it's about the person. Whether it's civilian or military, law enforcement is all about the respect.

Response by SGT Kyle Johnson made May 23 at 2016 10:48 PM

SGT Kyle Johnson — Mon, 23 May 2016 22:48:38 -0400

Most MPs I dealt with were solid, the newest MPs (Privates) sometimes had to be reminded not to let that badge and gun overload their common sense.. Most amazing thing I saw was an entire SP group relieved, (the entire unit) and replaced by another temporary SP group till an entire unit could be brought in from Commander, 1SG, and SPs. It was ugly, mainly because of the very high sensitivity of the area. The base had been experiencing a high theft rate, cameras were hidden around the base, guess who they caught..

Response by SPC Marcus DeMatos made May 24 at 2016 7:22 AM

SPC Marcus DeMatos — Tue, 24 May 2016 07:22:01 -0400

I've got a good friend who just made SGT in the MPs now, so I have hope that they might have improved a little. But while I was on active duty I had two run ins with MPs... the first was prior to a parade at Ft Hood. My unit was directly across from 1CD HQ and they filmed everything so everyone had to be out of sight 15 minutes prior. I had a Class VIII pass and a Brigade pass to take a humvee up on to the sidewalk to deliver my shipment of med supplies to my aid station (which was out of sight on the opposite side of the building from the parade). I was 30 minutes prior and was intent on parking out of sight, unloading out of sight, during the duration of the parade. The E2 MP refused to let me drive 50' to complete my delivery... instead I had to sit in Texas Spring heat for 90 minutes with my supplies that included a cooler of vaccines. When my prior-DS Platoon Sergeant found out he was livid, because he though I'd gotten into an accident and couldn't leave to find out. The second time was when I was bringing some stuff back from the motorpool to our aid station (we were doing chest inventory), so I had a Brigade pass again. But for some reason there was this E3 MP on foot patrol who stopped me as I was about to drive the previously mentioned 50' from our Company building to the barracks building where the aid station was. I was polite and showed him the pass and pointed out the heavy crates in the back. He in turn said "I don't give f**k". Now I maintained my bearing but after getting a hand shuttle squad together and unloading the humvee, I went to my Platoon Sergeant and told him how I felt about the lack of professionalism. He asked me what I would do to correct it... and giving it a couple of moments thought I told him I would like to take a 30 minute break, go for a walk to the other end of the quad, and if I happened to be walking by the MP Company I might give a verbal report to the 1SG. He said that sounded okay by him. Needless to say I executed, showing superior military bearing in my report to the 1SG, and he personally walked me from the area and shook my hand for helping him identify the issue. I think the MP is still guarding an empty port-a-potty in the impact area of west Ft Hood.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 9:58 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 09:58:11 -0400

Do you all know that MP's don't charge you with anything? They merely report. The command has the authority to charge people.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 3:24 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 15:24:28 -0400

MSG Private RallyPoint Member, Honestly, I wasn't aware there is a problem with the MP's. When I was on CQ at Fort Campbell and Fort Bragg, and a soldier, or soldiers were taken in, I was called by the MP at the police station and told where they are and what they did. Should they spend the night in jail or be released to me? I always had them released to me and wrote them up, and let their unit CO handle it. Back then, most of them were Vietnam vets blowing off steam.
My original MOS was 95-B10, so I was close to being one of those scumbags. LOL (-:

Response by SSgt Isidro Galguera made May 24 at 2016 7:35 PM

SSgt Isidro Galguera — Tue, 24 May 2016 19:35:07 -0400

Sometimes the problem with MPs is that a lot of them are young and need to mature in order to have better discretion. On the other hand the service members they contact are also young and their initial behavior and response might not be the best. I just retired after 26 years as a police officer in a very busy SO. California city. We don't have the respect or the benefit of the doubt we used to have in the 80s and up to the mid to late 90s. People call you names to your face and everything you do is because you are a racist. I enjoyed my career until my last 2 years,,times had definitely changed for civilian law enforcement across our nation. Semper Fi...stay safe.

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made May 24 at 2016 9:10 PM

MAJ Keira Brennan — Tue, 24 May 2016 21:10:16 -0400

Because you can't spell WIMP without MP LOLOLOL.

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 25 at 2016 12:30 AM

COL Charles Williams — Wed, 25 May 2016 00:30:13 -0400

Who knew we were reviled... MSG Private RallyPoint Member. That kinda depends on who you ask. The Army thinks we are kinda of big deal, based on the number of MPs and MP units expanded/created since 1941, and especially 911. No one likes MPs, or police for that matter, until you need us.... Then, we can't get there fast enough. Of the Troops, and for the troops. Who knew.

Response by MAJ Michael Pauling made May 25 at 2016 7:21 AM

MAJ Michael Pauling — Wed, 25 May 2016 07:21:35 -0400

In my experience it all boils down to personal interactions and communication. Having been a Civilian Police Officer and MP Officer, I have to say the MP has a rougher road to plow. Primarily because interactions with MPs can have consequence with ones' Chain of Command that will have adverse impact on Career. Service members can't simple blame MPs for their situation but the know MPs can ensure documentation on things people would rather not be in Public or Known Forum. Sadly, MPs are mandated to document and report or they might find them selves on the wrong side of the Bench.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 25 at 2016 1:42 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Wed, 25 May 2016 13:42:38 -0400

Most people, civilians and SMs like are unaware to what MPs can and can not do.

Response by MAJ David Parr made May 25 at 2016 4:34 PM

MAJ David Parr — Wed, 25 May 2016 16:34:26 -0400

Military Law Enforcement was my primary MOS, and throughout my 29 plus years of military service, I have found that the Army, unlike the other services, have never treated MP soldiers as 'real' Law Enforcement. For many years Army MP's fought to have badges issued and to be treated like 'real' Law Enforcement. Finally, the Army created and issued badges. Then, a few years later, the MP Corps got a new commanding general who promptly took back all the badges, and I have not seen one since. Where did they go?! There are some Korean knock-offs around, but they are not the real badge as originally issued. I am retired, and would like one of the 'original issue' badges for my collection. The Army has always treated its MP soldiers as combat support, and only good for such things as convoy security, painting fire hydrants, picking up trash, etc. It needs to change! Maybe now, with all the terrorist threats, the Army can be convinced to properly educate, train and use Army MP's as 'real' Law Enforcement, and thus give them the respect that the so truly deserve. Just my personal opinion.

Response by SSG Roderick Smith made May 26 at 2016 1:27 AM

SSG Roderick Smith — Thu, 26 May 2016 01:27:26 -0400

Because society, that's why. Just because we are in the military, doesn't mean the mindset changes. Police officers IN GENERAL aren't well liked. It's the nature of the job. While our primary function is to assist, protect, and defend, the reality is that 90% of the time, we are there to handle business because someone couldn't be a decent human being. Generally, Soldiers have a problem with MPs for a couple different reasons. We're reviled because we are pegged as untrained, sloppy-looking nerds that were bullied in high school, and are now taking out our frustrations on the cool jock kids. While those people may exist, I can say that if you sat in on every shift for a month, you'd start to wonder where those hard-charging, out-to-get-you types are. Trust me, they're not as prevalent as you think.

The second reason is because while the supercharged nerd-avenger types are few, they are the ones that make contact with you a lot of the time. And I mean the ones that pull you over, but do things like sneer, make idiotic comments, and cite you without a clear reason. Those guys (and gals) suck.

The third reason is that our training is straight up severely lacking in it's potency. We are so far behind our civilian counterparts, its disgusting. We HAVE made great strides in the right directions, but it's hard to get where you need to be, if the people at the top haven't been there yet, or if they just suck at that kind of thing.

And the last reason... is YOU. Yes, you. The one that rolls that stop sign and gets mad when you get caught. The one over there with the lead foot. And you over there, getting stopped at that DUI checkpoint. Yes, I know, you only had 2 beers. I get it. If those Soldiers would just take a little tiny bit of responsibility for their actions, they wouldn't be in the squad office on Monday dishing out a biased version of events to their buddies. They would take their licks and learn from their mistakes, instead of attempting to fight the system or whatever.

I've worked on both sides, as an MP and a civilian LEO. I enjoy the job. And like it or not, we are necessary. Trust me... you can't police yourselves.

Response by SGT Ken R made May 26 at 2016 2:08 AM

SGT Ken R — Thu, 26 May 2016 02:08:53 -0400

Spent a hitch with an mp company in Germany 89-91. To this day have never seen so much sex and drugs in the workplace. A few good folks there, but overall, was a very poisonous atmosphere.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made May 26 at 2016 11:35 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Thu, 26 May 2016 11:35:49 -0400

The reasons are many, and often is perception not reality.

My reality is based on my perception.
It takes experience to make judgment calls.
It takes Experience and knowledge of the joby to use common sense.
Many (most?) of teh MPs working the road ar not senior folks with list of experience and indepth knowledge and that limits thier ability to make good, sensible judgment calls and common sense decisions. Its all black and white to them.
My reality is based on my experience and perception.
Enforcement is designed to modify behavior.. NOT PUNISH .. Anything (legal, moral, ethical) the MP can do to efficiently modify behavior is a win.

I have been stopped twice by MP's in 28 years.. both times as senior NCO.
1: 20 min after I accepted the guidon for my 1st company I got a call.. drunk/ high out of control SM in the ER.. ER doc wanted a unit leader there NOW. I jumped in my car and off I went.. 30 MPH in a 30...accept a short section of road about 300 feet was dropped to 25 the week prior, I was distracted, I made a mistake.. there was no other traffic, no pedestrians to speak of.. I explained why and where I was going .. please hurry as possible. That MP COULD HAVE used some common sense and judgment, took in the totality of the situation, understood in this case no one was harmed or placed in additional danger by the 5MPH over the newly posted limit. the MP could have considered the reason for my distraction and made a judgment call. by Modified my behavior with a warning, and then made a positive influence on my perception by leading me safely to the ER. He chose the black and white solution.
2: Stopped by a young E4 MP, for an alleged traffic violation, improper left hand turn. I explained to her , that her understanding of the law was inaccurate, i offered her a look at the law which clearly supported my position and that turning from the left most lane into any available lane was legal. I asked if she would contact a supervisor and confirm her position before she wrote the citation. She refused to accept she could be wrong, call a supervisor, the attitude was Im not wrong but if I am, deal with it.
She was wrong, the federal court prosecutor dropped the charge.. though it took 4 hours of waiting in line to get there. I went to see the unit 1SG, he was receptive, acknowledged the mistake and promised retraining for his MP's.. Which he stated "are just too green to know what to do" HIS WORDS.
Additionally, besides the MIL MP to Soldier relationship,, where else do you have a civilian offcier commonly , as in everyday, subjected to "authority" and force of law from the people you pull over and cite????
That PFC, SPC, SGT has authority to cite based on black and white text and a personal understanding of what it means.....Often the citation happens, when the behaviour could have been modified effective on another manner.
I accept my perception could be wrong....however based on my personal experience and the like stories I have heard from others.. MPs on the road are set up for general failure.

DUI, domestic, unruly children, all have to a lesser degree a need for that common sense and judgment call... so I think the junior MP does much better at them... those type of calls often garner back up meaning more thinkers to make a group decision.
I don't blame the junior enlisted MP for the system that leaves them underprepared to do the job well.. But the fact in my opinion is, they are not able in many cases to do the job well.

Response by PFC Dalton Rupert made May 26 at 2016 2:33 PM

PFC Dalton Rupert — Thu, 26 May 2016 14:33:34 -0400

Honestly for me I know a few MPs' and the few I have had to deal with personally (I like to speed) would be respectful, I treated them like a person called them sir or ma'am respectively and most of the times I got off free with a verbal warning due to I would admit it was my mistake but I wouldn't cause a huge issue over it, like it was previously stated in the thread there are good MP's and bad ones yes some are power hungry just like there are some power hungry NCOs' or Officers' who are they have the power now they want to show boat it. but I have felt treat them with respect and 9 out of 10 times they will do the same and be a lot more understanding or forgiving depending on the circumstance.

Response by SSG Michael LeGrand made May 30 at 2016 8:52 PM

SSG Michael LeGrand — Mon, 30 May 2016 20:52:08 -0400

I think part of it is a "learned" behavior past down from the old days..... When i came in in 2000 some of my best friend's were Infantry and Scouts. Over the course of time their leadership says not to hang out with MPs and even my leadership would tell me at times that scouts and Infantry were bad to hang out with.... Obviously it depends on the person but this was stuff that was past down to me when i first came in..

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 6:17 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 May 2016 06:17:48 -0400

The Old Times are here. In "64" I was assigned to those "bad-ass XVIII Corp MP's. In "65" we were in the Dominican Republic and damned if we didn't forget to take our radar with us. Instead, we had a Provost Marshall who was gonna save all the Dominicans as well as the US Troops from frequenting those NUMEROUS houses of ill repute. That was actually part of the briefing we got. Today in the Island of Hispanola, that dastardly profession of prostitution has moved up in the counrty side and city alike. It appears that most men like sex.....
In " 66 " I had returned from the Dom Rep and was a patrolman on Bragg. I was sitting at the entrance to post at Butner and Hwy 87 when a soldier ran a red light. No one had a wreck, but I stopped him and noticed 3 children standing up on the back seat. When I ask for his license and ID card, he gave them to me with $30.00 between his license and ID card. 3 $10.00 bills. I ask him " as bad ass MP" if he thought the lives of his children would be spared for $30.00 elsewhere. I then ask him why he was crying. He said, " I didnt think about my kids. I said I noticed that. Just remember the bad ass MP that let you go when he could have charged you with attempted bribery. I said, I'm glad I stopped you then, I'll bet you don't run another red light.
In "68" I even braved the 2 Batt 173rd when we got a call that a gernade had exploded near the 1st Sgt hooch. Long story short, one of those fine upstanding rifleman had rigged a booby trap that pulled the pin when the 1st Sgt opened the 2 X 4 railing around his desk. Fortunately, the gernade was under his desk and went off before he even got close.
2 fine upstanding young soldiers, set a claymore outside the Mess Sgt's hooch and blew it off as he was getting up for breakfast. Blew his right leg off. When we picked the two choir boys up and ask them why. They said, he had mistreated them while they were on KP. Damn bad ass MP's

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2016 11:37 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 23:37:08 -0400

Because of the power they are given

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2016 11:55 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 23:55:28 -0400

I never got this impression with the Marine MP's. I like them way better than civilian cops. I think the fact that they wear the same uniform as the people they are policing has a mellowing effect on them. The civilian base cops are huge douchers, though They'll write you a ticket for speeding and tack on a "Driving unsafe for conditions" if it even looks like it might rain. One of those guys wrote me a ticket for parking too close to a fire hydrant when there was no yellow line on the curb. I was, like, 6 inches too close.

Response by Sgt Billy Ritch made Dec 15 at 2016 1:16 AM

Sgt Billy Ritch — Thu, 15 Dec 2016 01:16:46 -0500

In military rank, It is difficult for a Marine to take orders from a junior. And I have seen PFCs and LCPLs take an attitude of "You will do as I say Sgt". But I have also witness some very good MP's also. I agree that to be an MP you should at least be an E-4 CPL.

Response by SFC J Fullerton made Dec 15 at 2016 2:27 PM

SFC J Fullerton — Thu, 15 Dec 2016 14:27:51 -0500

They are not the most reviled Soldiers in the military. Recruiters are.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Apr 12 at 2017 5:43 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 17:43:39 -0400

They are not certified Police Officers. I was hired by the Federal Government because I was certified in two states. I have never been an MP. Most civilized States require certification

Response by MSgt Carl Stokes made Apr 21 at 2017 10:01 PM

MSgt Carl Stokes — Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:01:59 -0400

I always told my troops if you wanted to be loved you should have been a fireman. The MP tower rats of the cold war had the worst jobs in the Army and no one said shit, but as soon as trooper gets a car everyones an expert on what they SHOULD be doing. Just do what your paid to do and you wont have to ever worry about what an MP or SP does.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2017 10:40 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:40:28 -0400

BLUF: nobody likes the hall monitor. It's not much a lack of respect as MPs are the rule enforcers. We know it's their job but, people don't like getting caught breaking the rules.
Also, a lot of civilians don't like the civilian police. This is just the military reflecting civilian society.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Apr 22 at 2017 11:04 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Sat, 22 Apr 2017 11:04:01 -0400

The old saying goes, "If you want to be loved, be a firefighter; if you want to be respected, be a cop."

Air Force Security Forces personnel have some of the most difficult and thankless jobs I've ever seen. They are about as close as AF people get to combat arms troops. (Yes, the PJs are special forces types, but there's very few of them.) They have law enforcement and security duties that most AF members wouldn't want. When they have to use their authority to enforce laws and regulations, they are seldom thanked. Their security duties (gate guards and flight line security for example) are often boring, but require professionalism. They all deserve our support and respect.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2017 5:28 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Apr 2017 17:28:59 -0400

How did you come by the information you used to make that statement?

Response by MSG James Hughs made Apr 23 at 2017 10:29 PM

MSG James Hughs — Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:29:30 -0400

Not sure but the following might lend some insight...
A senior sergeant attended a company barbecue.... he had a little too much to drink and knew he should not drive.....there was no one left sober to drive him home and no taxi.....SO....he crawled in the back seat to sober up.....about 2 in the morning he was freezing his...... so he slipped into the front seat and started the engine to get some heat.... he never attempted to drive just get warm..... MP's wrote him up for drunk driving....
I worked as a bouncer in the NCO club.....I do not drink..... at 2 in the morning I got into my car to drive home..... the MPs were waiting at the club exit.....they followed me...... after a few miles they pulled me over..... I asked them what infraction did I commit....the response was " You were driving too good !!!"
Just two of dozens of MP encounters that might account for the hostility..... not to mention a civilian citation does not necessarily destroy your career

Response by MAJ David Parr made Apr 24 at 2017 8:27 PM

MAJ David Parr — Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:27:52 -0400

Most military basses enforce state and local laws where the installation is located. It is covered under the assimilated crimes act...

Response by SSG Howard Dennard made May 25 at 2017 8:13 AM

SSG Howard Dennard — Thu, 25 May 2017 08:13:05 -0400

NCO's and Officers do not like to be corrected by junior enlisted, they somehow feel degraded for a PFC to correct their behavior. And face it, a lot of non-combat Arms Officers do not feel enlisted members have much intelligence, or they would be officers. The combat capabilities of the MP Corps are not well known by the rest of the military, therefore the MP is not considered to be a "true soldier".

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Sep 21 at 2017 4:45 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Thu, 21 Sep 2017 16:45:00 -0400

When I was active duty many years ago, My LT and I had to go to a base to pick up two person crypto. Once we pick it up we have to beat feet to get back to our detachment and acknowledge the crypto made it back to where it was supposed to go. Before we left post, we were pulled over by an mp for doing 17 MPH in a 15 MPH zone. Suffice to say my LT was nice at first, showed the MP both of our Currier Orders (actual multi language orders instruction both military and civilian police to let us pass as we had classified documents on board). Homeboy didn't think they were real and calls for the duty NCO to show up. Now my LT was a guy I really liked, very even keeled, this was the one time I thought he was going to put a Darth Vadar choke hold on someone.
The NCO shows up looks at the orders, apologizes to the LT, and commences to berate the MP for being an idiot. He also points out, "in case you didn't notice, their firearms are loaded, and yours isn't, would someone BSing carry around live fire arms?" I don't think the kid sat down for a week when his NCO got through with him.

Response by SFC Greg Bruorton made Jan 17 at 2018 5:11 PM

SFC Greg Bruorton — Wed, 17 Jan 2018 17:11:39 -0500

In my line of work as a Special Security Officer, I held all Military Police members in high regard as they were constantly called upon to keep our SCIFs (Special Compartmented Intelligence Facilities) physically secure--both in tactical and fixed configurations.

Not once did I have concerns over their shift changes in respect to our physical security. In fact, one large MP had greeted a 2LT in our SCIF one day as the lieutenant had failed to deactivate the alarm system upon entering. When the MP rang the outside bell and the officer opened the door he was greeted with a locked and loaded .45 in his face. I had warned the butter bar how important it was to activate or deactivate the building alarms, but it took only one corrective action to resolve the issue with him.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Jan 17 at 2018 7:37 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Wed, 17 Jan 2018 19:37:44 -0500

MPs are NOT Police. If they completed a POST Certified Course like the Federal Course at Glenco Ga. they would have an argument

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Jan 22 at 2018 1:34 PM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Mon, 22 Jan 2018 13:34:46 -0500

The Police both civilian and Military run into people with attitudes and its usually because they got caught doing something wrong. I've preformed both Military Police and civilian Police duties for over 40 years. When You respond to violent domestic disturbances, rapes, assaults, robberies, murders, child molestation, fatal traffic accidents, You name it You get first hand experience with a society not at its best. Those that haven't a respect for the Police seems to resent anyone with Authority. Of Course Your, NCO's, Your Officers and Commander screwed You over also. Maybe if people learned to Police themselves and their off springs Law Enforcement wouldn't have to do the job You should have done to prevent this. It seems many people refuse to own up to their own shortcoming and blame someone else.

Having said all that I have found at times, some Senior officers that have and attitude of being better than the MP's and the rules don't apply to them. I found a few Myself, One an Army Brigadier General I stopped for speeding (more than double the speed limit) displayed that attitude, I kept the word Sir but nicely reminded Him, not only was He not on an Army Base and maybe He could have that attitude with the Army MPs but it will not be tolerated here. I also said, It would be a shame to See You taken to jail for Your conduct" He changed His attitude quickly and I issued Him the DD Form 1408, Armed Forces Traffic Ticket. I may add within our organization we had a Commander and OIC of Law Enforcement as well that would come right there and place that General in hand cuffs and take Him in. I found often the Army didn't back up their MPs when dealing esp with people of rank and that itself made them effective only against junior Officers and enlisted. Be it Military or the Civilian Community in both cases that breaks down effectiveness and respect for the Police. I was fortunate having had Base Commanders that did back up the Base Police and made it clear to disobey the Security Police, who represent Me and carry out My orders as one said, I regard as direct disobedience to my orders and You will pay for it. He also kept His word and made it very clear of His support for the USAF Security Police. There also is also a purpose for motor Vehicle enforcement and that is safety. I've investigated enough fatal accident to know the results of excessive alcohol use, speed, operating a motor Vehicle to endanger. Perhaps If You were able to observe these same things You might understand the purpose a lot better !

Response by SPC David Willis made Jan 22 at 2018 1:50 PM

SPC David Willis — Mon, 22 Jan 2018 13:50:02 -0500

MPs aren't like civilian cops. In my mind the most apt analogy is civilian police hate Internal Affairs because they are cops that target cops. The military hates MPs because they're service members who target service members.

Response by A1C Joseph Waleski made Feb 15 at 2018 4:09 PM

A1C Joseph Waleski — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 16:09:55 -0500

They have to do the nasty work. Some love to use the pencil as a way to get back at people. I can never forget the day I was stationed at the Motor Pool to write up airman with dirty clothes. I kept telling them to use the other gate and most did. There are always the ones who believe - you can't tell me which gate to use. So when they came out of the MP I asked for their ID and wrote them up for having a dirty uniform. I didn't like doing that but their OIC wanted it. You get a few jobs like that and people tend to "revile" you. I didn't know a single mechanic that spent more than 10 minutes polishing their shoes and we spent hours. If you can't wear a clean uniform because you got filthy working on an Oshkosh, I understand. Listen to me when I tell you to go out the other gate and don't cop an attitude.

Does that give you an idea why ?

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Feb 15 at 2018 9:53 PM

MSG John Duchesneau — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 21:53:57 -0500

Anybody who tells you that you can't smoke pot, get drunk or drive your car fast is bound to get some crap for it.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2022 9:15 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2022 21:15:52 -0400

The problem a lot of people have with MPs is that most people who interact with them have been driving in the civilian world for years before and after joining the military, and have had little to zero negative or punitive interactions with law enforcement. After driving on places like military posts where MPs have authority though, all of a sudden they're constantly in trouble with the law and are confused as to why most of the time. What I've noticed a lot of the time is civilian police are more interested in hearts and minds, along with making sure people actually learn from their mistakes