Marine Corps Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Females

CSM Mike Maynard — Tue, 31 Dec 2013 03:36:33 -0500

http://www.stripes.com/marines-delay-changes-to-female-pull-up-rules-1.259871

45% of Females and 1% of Males unable to meet standard, but according to one female Marine Capt, it's not an issue of capability..........

What are you thoughts?

Marines delay changes to female pull-up rules

The Marine Corps has delayed changes to its female pull-up standards after data showed that many potential Marines were unable to meet the new standards.

Response by LTC Jason Bartlett made Dec 31 at 2013 7:00 AM

LTC Jason Bartlett — Tue, 31 Dec 2013 07:00:00 -0500

Not such a great idea after all.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Dec 31 at 2013 9:44 AM

SGM Matthew Quick — Tue, 31 Dec 2013 09:44:53 -0500

Bottom line: This makes the Marine Corps leadership look silly by back-tracking on such a revolutionary change.

I think implementing the pull-ups for females was a irresponsible 'quick' reaction by leaders without being given all the accurate data.

We can't always say, "Hey, that's a good idea (in theory)!" and just implement things without some sort of prolonged data.

I think it's GREAT that women want to serve in combat and be equal to their male counterparts, BUT we don't always get what we want just 'wanting' it. This isn't a knock on women (I know a few that can out-perform me on the APFT), but a knock on the specific training that should have been incorporated prior to implementation.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2013 10:11 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 Dec 2013 10:11:14 -0500

I am not surprised. To say someone can meet the requirements for a snapshot in time is easy. To maintain the level for a career would be near impossible. Many new recruits that are female can pass the APFT on the male standard. Not many can 3 and 5 years down the road. That is why we have two standards.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Dec 31 at 2013 10:15 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Tue, 31 Dec 2013 10:15:29 -0500

It's actually 55% were unable to meet the standard; 45% passed.  I'd also be interested to know the rest of the APFT stats.  What are the pushup percentages and are they the same as males?<div>You want to know why they "delayed" the changes?  Because now they'd be chaptering out over half of all female recruits who come in.  Pretty soon they'd just stop recruiting women at that rate.</div><div>If I know that 9 of 10 men I recruit will pass and only 4 of the 10 women I recruit will, well that's an easy decision.</div>

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2013 10:59 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 Dec 2013 10:59:31 -0500

CSM,

I read this article. My wife and I were discussing this, as she is a National Guard MAJ currently on Active Duty and has been in about 14-15 years.

Both of us agree that if they can't meet the SAME EXACT standards as men, they shouldn't be allowed.

Women want to be treated equally. My God, you can't shove that down people's throats enough these days. Hell you can open a door for a woman and get your butt chewed off for treating her differently sometimes.

If they want equal treatment, they should be held to the SAME EXACT STANDARD.

If you want in combat arms, you should be able to ruck with the 240B and barrels just like PVT Smith has to. When I went to PLDC at Fort Sill (I was artillery at the time) we were all mostly artillery except we had one female CPL in our class who was supply. She couldn't carry the man pack, she couldn't carry the 249 let alone 240, yet she still graduated even though we had to pick up her slack.

All that does is create resentment.

In the Army the PU standard is ridiculous for women. 17 or so? Any woman that works out (yes I understand the physiological differences 100%) should be able to knock out at least 40. My wife does 55 or so, and plenty of females in my unit do as well.

Of course on the opposite end of this, the Army should quit being so lenient on the males as well. They need to GO if you can't pass.

I'll share this story real quick and get off my soap box. I get so sick of people saying that "oh I didn't have enough notice" or "oh boo I just worked out" or some crap. The standards ARE A JOKE!!! I had a private tell me last APFT when I was a grader "well I just took one and you can't make me take one more than once every four months". WRONG. AR 350-1, para 1-24 e. (2) states: Commanders may administer the APFT as often as they wish; however, they must specify beforehand when the

results are for record

So now for the actual story. When I was a newly promoted SGT, I decided to run my mouth within ear shot of my 1SG after recently finishing an APFT where people failed and said "you should be able to pass an APFT EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK!!!" to which my 1SG administered a record APFT to me the next week Monday - Friday, and I passed all five.

Sick and tired of these easy standards and people can't meet them.

But to bring it full circle - same standards for everyone. 1% of females passing doesn't mean the test is flawed, it means the treat them equally has more ramifications than people think. Same with allowing women into combat arms.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Dec 31 at 2013 11:07 AM

SSG V. Michelle Woods — Tue, 31 Dec 2013 11:07:47 -0500

CSM
This is just fine and dandy for Marines but I would be pissed if the Army tried implementing this! Women want equal opportunity not equal treatment.
Equal opportunity means having the same chance as everyone else to perform the exact same standard.
Equal treatment means everyone gets to wear ASU skirts, shave their heads and see the same docs. Equal treatment is stupid because the two genders are not equal. This whole issue is beyond ridiculous.

Response by SGT Thomas Sullivan made Dec 31 at 2013 4:06 PM

SGT Thomas Sullivan — Tue, 31 Dec 2013 16:06:57 -0500

My overall response to his topic can be summed up in the following statement:<br><br>A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.  <br><br>If you lower the standards, you are lowering the requirements of how strong your weakest link has to be. Thus you put the whole machine/system in jeopardy.<br>

Response by CSM Mike Maynard made Dec 31 at 2013 9:04 PM

CSM Mike Maynard — Tue, 31 Dec 2013 21:04:14 -0500

SFC Jones - you hit upon a great point about "equal treatment" and SGT Woods touches on "equal opportunity". And some great back and forth from SSG Burns.

It can and never will be equal. We all know that "on the average" due to physiological differences, there will always be a performance difference. And as MSG Quick has pointed out, there are always those outliers that do better/worse than the average and against the opposite sex, but that is not the norm.

Now, when a recruit shows up at the MEPS station, do males/females have different options?

I know that it used to be that for males, the first screen that was shown was all combat arms and they really tried to push you to those jobs as that was what the army needed filled. Now, with equal opportunity, will new female recruits be "pushed" into those jobs at the same rate as males? or are we only going to allow those females who "want" to go combat arms do that?

Doesn't sound equal to me if I'm a male, sounds like I will have less diversity or opportunity for jobs than what females will have.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2014 11:53 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Jan 2014 23:53:39 -0500

CSM and RP network, first and foremost my thoughts are exactly that my thoughts expressed in my opinion. I think that it is an issue around the service. This issue I speak of is gender equality. The biggest topic around my branch of service is female joining the ranks as 11B's. I believe that it is imperative to have an equal scale in which to judge physical readiness, in both males and females. Women and men should be held to a physical standard equal to the rigors required in a combat environment. Closing with and destroying the enemy, in any environment. There cannot be a double standard and feeding off that double standard cannot generate equality.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jan 3 at 2014 10:13 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 22:13:32 -0500

They discussed this tonight on Anderson Cooper 360. Attached is the link and there are 2 good videos to go with it. What do you think.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/03/women-marines-and-fitness/

Women, Marines and fitness

The Marine Corps is delaying a new physical fitness mandate after 55% of female recruits failed to do the minimum of three pull-ups in boot camp last year. Some are questioning what this says about wo...

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2014 2:36 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 04 Jan 2014 14:36:22 -0500

My 2 cents; I know Female Marines can meet the requirements to do the pull-ups, and in some cases, max the pull-ups. It's all a matter of time. The problem is the length of Recruit Training. There is not enough time to focus on getting all up-to-speed on pull-ups and finish all the other training requirements IOT become a Marine.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2014 1:23 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jan 2014 01:23:36 -0500

The problem with pull-ups is the phrase "I can't do pull-ups." I believe it should be standard to all physical fitness tests. Everyone works abs, chest, and legs, but the back muscles (lats, traps, lower back muscles) are the muscle groups that help build that balanced physique and athleticism. You can do push-ups for days but can't do five pull-ups. That's a problem. Everytime I conduct muscle failure PT, there are pull-ups. It's the one exercise that, if part of the APFT, would mimic a movement you could have to execute in combat.

Response by Cpl Nikki Reynaga made Feb 27 at 2015 11:52 PM

Cpl Nikki Reynaga — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 23:52:39 -0500

We ALL did pull ups in basic. We figured it was those of higher rank who were having difficulties, causing the delay. The way I saw it: one less excuse for the males to act like I don't pull my own weight. ;)