Marine gets other than honorable discharge for anti-Obama Facebook postings

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 01:26:51 -0500

Think the content of online posts is harmless?

Is the Marine Corps right to discharge this Marine for his anti-Obama Facebook posts?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/marine-sgt-gary-stein-honorable-discharge-anti-obama/story?id=16216279

Marine to be Discharged Over Anti-Obama Facebook Comment

A conservative Marine who started an armed forces tea party Web page has been given an "other than honorable" discharge for misconduct after declaring on Facebook, "Screw Obama. I will not follow all orders from him."

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 6:24 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 06:24:48 -0500

This is a prime example of the modern age where we are accountable for what we put on line. Although I don't know if an OTH was the way to go, calling out POTUS on line should have been dealt with in some manner. Knowing he is not the first service member to do this, but he is probably the first prosecuted and hopefully it will help others better understand how social media can affect your career.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 7:08 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 07:08:19 -0500

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I could be thinking about a different event - but wasn't this guy told by his command to stop posting this type of stuff and he refused? I thought that that is what escalated it, not the comments themselves.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 7:56 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 07:56:13 -0500

That's an eye opener, MAJ Private RallyPoint Member. Thanks for sharing that with the community.

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Nov 23 at 2014 8:25 AM

PO2 Corey Ferretti — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 08:25:13 -0500

I think they were right in discharging him but i think other than honorable was a stretch. We all know we were not allowed to be outwardly critical of the President. And im pretty sure it was not a single post that did him in. He was more then likely told to take it down.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 8:37 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 08:37:36 -0500

I'm certain his COC, at multiple levels, provided him with guidance on what needed to happen and he failed to comply. The OTH normally is a result of multiple failures to comply, so I don't think it's a stretch for the Marine Corps to do this at all.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Nov 23 at 2014 9:22 AM

Capt Richard I P. — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 09:22:42 -0500

Article 88, some users here would be wise to heed the example.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 9:47 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 09:47:34 -0500

No matter your political beliefs, it is unwise to criticize your Commander In Chief in times of war. Its against good Order and discipline, be responsible for your actions. If you dont like the consequences then dont do it! Now i am not saying stand besides a President on everything but until one acts blatently in an illegal manner and/or goes against our constitution/Oath, we must maintain order. In the most tyrannical example, we would never organize a coup anyway...it would be the chiefs and the Ghost of Chesty Puller and Audie Murphy combining their powers forming a Magazord that the great warlord in history would bow down to but yeah....Get your DD214 first lol

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 10:16 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:16:20 -0500

Let's be clear. First, this is an old story. Second, this is NOT a matter of curtailed free speech. I read some of the crap he posted when it happened. He said that he would never follow any of the President's orders, "none!" He referred to him as "Jackass-in-Chief." Could he post these same remarks about his company commander or platoon sergeant without repercussions? No. Could a civilian get away with making such posts about the president of their company without being disciplined and fired? Not a chance.

People need to figure out the difference between:
1) A reasoned, researched argument/point/opinion that will elevate the discourse, make people think, and move toward solutions - regardless of political slant
2) Straw-man dichotomies, name-calling, grandstanding, and party-line parroted talking points from your favorite political blow-hole that only serve to anger, insult, and divide.

This guy was 100% the second. His freedom of speech was not impacted. He can continue to make these remarks all day...but never again as a Marine. I fully support the OTH discharge because his actions were specifically a violation of his oath and intended to incite a lack of order and discipline.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Nov 23 at 2014 4:15 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:15:58 -0500

Well, what he said had no discernable ambiguity in it. :-) It was posted on a questionable page and the aye, aye, ayes pretty much have it that this is not a 1st amendment argument. PO1 Private RallyPoint Member hits it right on the head that this young lad had to have received both guidance and discipline prior to this going OTH discharge.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 4:43 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:43:34 -0500

What's Facebook?

Response by PO1 Steven Kuhn made Nov 23 at 2014 4:53 PM

PO1 Steven Kuhn — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 16:53:46 -0500

Unfortunately we are sworn to obey the orders (if they are lawful) of all officers appointed over us and the President of the United States whether or not he is eligible to hold the office or not. I do understand the Marine's consternation because of all the negative things going on in America, but the office of the President needs to be respected even if the President does not always warrant the respect. One day (hopefully soon) we will get elected officials who represent our country in a manner that will evoke loyalty from Americans that serve.
Respectfully,

Steve

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 5:05 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 17:05:46 -0500

People these days do not seem to realize that we still have on the books (since John Adams and the Anti-sedition Act) laws affecting government civilians and military personnel about "disloyal" statements about the President/Commander in Chief. Rules affecting civilians involve while in a gov building; rules involving military involve UCMJ regarding "disparaging remarks" and a whole array of actions "contrary to good order and discipline" or that may "bring discredit to the service" and so on.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 11:23 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 23:23:59 -0500

I get that Facebook is a place people vent... But sometimes just something's you don't post

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2014 2:00 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Nov 2014 02:00:04 -0500

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/supreme-court-case-tests-the-limits-of-free-speech-on-facebook-and-other-social-media/2014/11/23/9e54dbd8-6f67-11e4-ad12-3734c461eab6_story.html

Perhaps a related development; a Supreme Court ruling that speech on social media is less weighty than other speech could shape discussions such as the ones we've been having on the OTH discharged Marine. I agree with the many of you who have noted that the Marine's issue wasn't necessarily one of free speech; yet, the Supreme Court's ruling on this case will set precedent. Could a ruling that items posted on social media not have any actual value open the flood gates to military members no longer being constrained by the UCMJ in social media?

Were Anthony Elonis’s Facebook postings harmless rants or real threats? The Supreme Court must...

In a groundbreaking case, the Supreme Court will consider whether an estranged husband’s Facebook postings constituted a “true threat” against his wife.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2014 2:29 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Nov 2014 02:29:04 -0500

I think this dirt bag got what he deserved. I don't condone this type of thing whether its him doing it to the current POTUS or the Marine in Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 who criticized Bush. We went into this knowing full well that the civilian president makes policies that effect us. Whether we like it or not we know that the administration changes and that policy decisions change. We gave an oath to follow the orders of the POTUS and if he did not want to do that. It is simple no one forced him to join.

Response by PV2 Evan Murray made Nov 24 at 2014 2:42 AM

PV2 Evan Murray — Mon, 24 Nov 2014 02:42:35 -0500

I think he missed the part of the oath that says "I will obey the orders of the President of the United States of America". So that being said, I think it was very necessary to discipline him.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Nov 24 at 2014 3:10 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Mon, 24 Nov 2014 03:10:11 -0500

Would you call what he did honorable? I think that about sums it up.

Response by SPC Richard White made Nov 24 at 2014 3:47 AM

SPC Richard White — Mon, 24 Nov 2014 03:47:19 -0500

You are not to do or say anything negative towards the Commander and chief in the military and I feel the correct action was taken here.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2014 6:35 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Nov 2014 06:35:24 -0500

Good, jacka## personally think what you want but it's our job to follow the guidance of the officers over us even if we don't agree of personally like it

Response by 1SG Mark Colomb made Nov 25 at 2014 11:44 AM

1SG Mark Colomb — Tue, 25 Nov 2014 11:44:30 -0500

You make your bed, you sleep in it. The Marine acknowledged his mistake in wording (probably posted in the heat of the moment). That said, I will almost guarantee we are not seeing the whole picture here. This seems to be awfully slim evidence to justify an OTH. Wonder what his counseling packet looked like.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Nov 25 at 2014 11:47 AM

1SG Michael Blount — Tue, 25 Nov 2014 11:47:34 -0500

Somebody apparently forgot that, while we work and fight for a democracy (republic, actually), We members of the uniformed services do NOT have the same rights as private citizens. We would all do well to be mindful of that small fact.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Nov 25 at 2014 11:52 AM

CPT Jack Durish — Tue, 25 Nov 2014 11:52:03 -0500

I too would have a hard time obeying the orders of this President. Fortunately, I am not compelled to. My oath of enlistment and commissioning lapsed long before Obama came to office. However, I still consider myself obligated to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Is President Obama an enemy of the Constitution? Possibly. He has not declared himself such but has frequently railed against it as an imperfect document in need of change and unilaterally chosen to ignore portions that did not suit his purpose.

That being said, this Marine acted improperly in declaring that he would not obey the President's orders. In that case, he does not belong in the Marines. He may better serve in a militia where grousing is more acceptable.

All of us who have served or are serving should understand this. Military discipline requires that we leave a substantial portion of our rights at home with our civies while we serve. No, we are not required to serve blindly. Indeed, as the trials at Nuremberg proved, we may be called to judgment and held personally responsible if we obey unlawful orders. Thus, had this Marine said that he would not follow the unlawful orders of the President, he would have been merely stating a fact. However, that does not seem to be the case that got him dismissed.

Ultimately, he should feel relieved to have been discharged. Now he can come home and help his fellow citizens stand against the growing tyranny of political correctness, progressive incursions into our individual God-given rights and liberties, and real threats to our communities, all without restraint. He can also share the lessons he learned in the Marine Corp with his fellow citizens who were not honored to have served. They may need those skills and discipline...

Response by SCPO Larry Knight Sr. made Nov 26 at 2014 10:12 AM

SCPO Larry Knight Sr. — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 10:12:01 -0500

Unfortunately a young career is ended and all because "Letting your alligator mouth override that your hummingbird ass" in the wrong arena ! Social media isn't the place to vent, all that is done off line period. Was the Marine Corp to harsh well we don't have all the facts, presented in front of us and again not a social media venue. It's a shame to see this young man lose his opportunity to continue to serve, but this is what happens when you communicate things out of frustration and anger????

Hey hope the young man has the ability to go too college and become a part of the solution, for we need young blood in the right places not in the all bar hotel network........

Response by PO1 Steven Kuhn made Nov 27 at 2014 12:19 PM

PO1 Steven Kuhn — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 12:19:37 -0500

The marine stated according to this post I will not follow all orders from him (President Obama). Every order needs to be evaluated to determine if it is a lawful order or not. If the President ordered you or any other active duty military member to open fire on American civilians that were protesting any of his many questionable activities, would YOU obey that order? The people sodomized and murdered in Benghazi may have been running guns illegally to the Syrian rebels, we still have no answers. They were following orders. The Navy Seals that ran towards the gunfire were following a code of Honor and were expecting aid that never came. Instead of condemning a marine for posting what is on his heart (unless he posted plans to overthrow the government illegally or assassinate someone) why don't we try and hold EVERYONE regardless of their political position accountable for their actions? Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I disagree with amnesty for illegal aliens, sending money that Americans desperately need to radical Islam, Common Core teaching (brainwashing) our youth into thinking Islam is the one true religion and all they have ever done is acted peacefully or protected themselves when threatened (what about that separation of Church and State I am always getting slammed with? - Oh, wait, I am a Christian so it is okay to boycott my religion but endorse atheism [Darwinism-unproven is taught in school], Satanism and Wiccan [Halloween decorations of the devil and witches], but call a Christmas Tree anything but a holiday tree and you have idiots screaming out of the woodworks.). Bottom line is that while we join the military we still have freedom of speech as long as we do not disclose classified information or try to weaken the chain of command. If all this marine posted was that he would not obey all orders of Obama it may be due to the fact that he questions Obama's true purpose along with over 70% of the population. Again, let us hold all persons accountable for their actions.....and the higher they are in the food chain respectively the more we need to hold their feet to the fire Elected officials are supposed to be the models of American society and not above the law. If you want to look at a group that has the highest percentage of disobeying the law (insider trading, child and regular prostitution, drug and alcohol abuse) then look no farther than our government. Power should not keep you out of trouble. Power should make you an example for others to emulate.
r/
Steve

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 10:26 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 22:26:52 -0500

This is all so very common and still occurs people sit in deface bad mouthing the President and calling him names. But I tell that I feel as a service member you should refrain from those actions because the president is still in the chain of command , highest ranking officer in the military, so therefore we should show respect even if we don't believe in some of his choices. I actually deleted someone off my FB for this very recently he was a former soldier.

Response by MSgt Kevin Willoughby made Nov 29 at 2014 11:42 PM

MSgt Kevin Willoughby — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 23:42:26 -0500

I do not know the full depth of what was said/written, or what was done to the Marine prior to his discharge. Reading the responses here, it seems he may have been reprimanded of sorts and ordered to stop by his Command.

Having said that, I highly doubt that any service has changed since I joined the Air Force in 1986. We were instructed on Good Order and Discipline, self control, and about how the President is our Commander in Chief. Any service member should have enough self respect, dignity, and good moral character to know that bad-mouthing the President is wrong, disrespectful, and be ready to accept the punishnment handed to him/her for their actions. Actions that require disciplinary action to be taken.

Everyone has personal opinions. Everyone, or most individuals, join a political party. When you join the military, you give up the right to bad-mouth your supervision. You do not have rights in regard to bringing discredit upon your service, or this great nation.

Personally, I wish all Presidents were of the character of Ronald Reagan, and led this country and military as he did. Sadly, not everyone believes that, and not all Presidents lead the same. As members of the military, we give up the righ to publicly complain about them. Professionally speaking, it makes us look bad as individuals to publicly speak against our leaders, from our Flight, Squadron, Command, or even our President.

I am sure that whatever actions were taken to reprimand this individual for his comments on Facebook were taken in accordance with Command guidance. If he was verbally reprimanded or brought before his Commander for a formal hearing, and he continued to do so, he got what he deserved. If he did do all that, it is not very honorable of him to do so, and the type of discharge should have possibly been a dishonorable discharge. As it is, he should be able to appeal it for a change to honorable in the alotted number of years. That to me is wrong, but that is my opinion....

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Nov 30 at 2014 4:42 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sun, 30 Nov 2014 04:42:18 -0500

Well, he earned it. I can't feel sorry for him. I am sure he was aware about the rules. I know he did not merely state facts.

Response by CW3 Chuck Huddleston made Nov 30 at 2014 12:03 PM

CW3 Chuck Huddleston — Sun, 30 Nov 2014 12:03:47 -0500

But....But....Obama IS a jackass! He just told the truth! The military does not want "puppets" that have no feelings or thoughts, the only problem I see here is the guy put it on Facebook. That was wrong and brought it to his being discharged only because Obuma is the CIC.

Response by SGT Frank Leonardo made Nov 30 at 2014 4:42 PM

SGT Frank Leonardo — Sun, 30 Nov 2014 16:42:44 -0500

well here is the deal when you serve you cant bad mouth your commander and chief no matter how bad or good a leader they are in your eyes you have to keep your mouth shut if it is negative.

Response by SGT Timothy Updike made Dec 7 at 2014 10:25 AM

SGT Timothy Updike — Sun, 07 Dec 2014 10:25:49 -0500

He is the CIC whether you like him or not! Just saying

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jun 2 at 2018 12:16 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sat, 02 Jun 2018 12:16:08 -0400

Don't know but it is against regulation to say, act, write dis-respective fully to superior officers and the POTUS.

Response by SPC Michael Duricko, Ph.D made Nov 10 at 2021 10:00 AM

SPC Michael Duricko, Ph.D — Wed, 10 Nov 2021 10:00:38 -0500

If that's the case what does Joe get for a disastrous exit from Afghanistan, leaving Americans behind and responsible for the lives of our troops when they could have been alive today?