Military Drill: Does the theory and purpose still hold true?

SPC David S. — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:40:45 -0500

While Drill itself doesn't provide any visible useful function on the battlefield, it is thought to instill public confidence in a nation's military forces as well instill discipline in the troops. So does it hold true that drill and ceremony still has a a purpose and place within the military or is this all a waste of time and money. - Column from the left on the left...

Response by 1LT Aaron Barr made Jan 19 at 2016 1:47 PM

1LT Aaron Barr — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:47:15 -0500

I'm somewhat biased on this as I was Pershing Rifleman in college but I would say that D&C has a number of useful functions. First, it instills discipline and teamwork within a group of people who often have never interacted with each other from all walks of life throughout the country in basic training. It also serves a number of ceremonial functions that I think we'd really miss were they to go away.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jan 19 at 2016 1:55 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:55:16 -0500

From the Marine Drill & Ceremonies Manual: MARINE CORPS ORDER P5060.20

"The object of close order drill is to teach Marines by exercise to obey orders and to do so immediately in the correct way. Close order drill is one foundation of discipline and esprit de corps. Additionally, it is still one of the finest methods for developing confidence and troop leading abilities in our subordinate leaders. "

Additionally, drill teaches A LOT of fundamentals which are "scalable" with and without weapons. It's the basics of ground based maneuver combat.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2016 2:19 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 14:19:20 -0500

If nothing else it connects us to our heritage. And that is reason enough to learn it, and look good doing it.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2016 2:27 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 14:27:30 -0500

If these guys can perform these movements silently on the parade field, can you imagine what they can do on the battlefield? I would pay to see that.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2016 2:47 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 14:47:54 -0500

Drill and ceremony is the bedrock or discipline, order, attention to detail, espree de corps, etc. The more it gets pushed aside today the worse all those others fair and are practiced and respected by soldiers. Just look around these days and try and refute the correlation.

Response by TSgt Terry Hudson made Jan 19 at 2016 3:26 PM

TSgt Terry Hudson — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 15:26:31 -0500

While in the AF, unless you're Honor Guard, in ALS or an MTI, you don't see drill to often, I think it's still important. I for one love drill! That's why I will try my best to stay in Honor Guard. But I do think it serves it's purpose. And the AF on my opinion needs more of it. I conduct uniform inspections on my troops while at home station. ABU's and blues. We have a full on open ranks. They hate it but they'll be alright. If you're my troop not only will you perform you job to the best of your ability but you will look good doing it! Lol

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2016 3:28 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 15:28:59 -0500

I felt like NTC-RTC Boot Camp in 1970 was singularly about preparing us to march in our graduation and nothing else. That emphasis has definitely changed, but I strongly believe parade drill is still a very valid part of discipline, both mental and physical.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2016 4:40 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:40:40 -0500

A lot of D&C is heritage, all the way back to Baron Von Stuben and the Blue Book at Valley Forge. Then, it was about keeping ranks, volume of fire, and discipline while on the march.
Some of those legacy items still have a purpose. For example, a quick-time march is 120 steps per minute. When combined with the standard 30 inch step, a commander in a remote location and out of communication can accurately estimate a distant element's progress, noting that a disciplined formation will march exactly 100 yards per minute, or 3.4 miles per hour.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Jan 19 at 2016 4:42 PM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:42:59 -0500

It teaches discipline, teamwork, moving as one unit versus individuals, listening to one command voice. Nothing like the best leadership lab in the world when you are leading a formation.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jan 19 at 2016 4:46 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:46:26 -0500

Although I am in favor of D&C, you will have to read a bit to find out why. To be fair, D&C formations and movements are almost indistinguishable from those used to move troops into line on early battlefields and mass them for volley fire. To be equally fair, I doubt if audiences would be impressed watching troops portray modern battlefield tactics of individual riflemen digging pits or maneuvering and firing. Still, D&C does have its purposes. I agree with the quotation from the Marine D&C Manual provided below. It does have its uses...

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2016 5:57 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 17:57:42 -0500

While the primary focus of D&C was to instill a sense of discipline that equated to adherence to orders without slightest disregard is way outdated. (1700's armies won by their ability to stay together during a fight, units that waivered were easy prey for Calvary charges, today's fights are won by the individuals commitment, and intelligence; following blind orders will loose every battle in today's world.) D&C is still very appropriate for supervising a significant number of personnel with minimal oversight which makes it ideal for basic training. It is also very appropriate for formal occasions. The amount of time spent on D&C is so low that even the most basic ceremonies require advanced rehearsals. So in my estimate the Army at least has done a great job adhering to the traditions while not limiting its potential.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2016 7:55 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 19:55:03 -0500

Like a lot of people are saying on here, it's a way of instilling discipline and teaching how to follow and give orders.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2016 9:20 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 21:20:05 -0500

I'm pretty sure the Army is developing an online D & C course....
In all seriousness though I feel it is still an important part of developing as a leader and Soldier. If you can't march a team/squad from A to B then how are you or your supervisor going to have confidence that you can lead them in a battle drill exercise. Sure D & C doesn't give you a warm-tingly feeling like a well executed squad attack live-fire range but it builds the base level of confidence between leaders and followers. It also aids in presenting the military as a professional organization. How would a formation or ceremony look if everyone just gaggled? D & C gets a bad rap because it often gets used as a time filler instead of training it deliberately. Soldiers don't see any value in being told to go march around because we don't have anything else for you right now.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Jan 19 at 2016 11:59 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 23:59:04 -0500

SPC David S. Files from the right, column right, said the sergeant!

If it was good enough for Old King Cole, it should fit the U S Army!

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jan 20 at 2016 1:43 AM

COL Charles Williams — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 01:43:35 -0500

Yes

Response by PO3 David Fries made Jan 20 at 2016 6:43 AM

PO3 David Fries — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 06:43:30 -0500

I was Navy, and we did D&C in boot camp. I loved it. I loved doing it again when I ended up with the Marines. It was a matter of great pride to me that I was decent at it.

The fact that a conversation about the "value" of something of this is even being had saddens me. Even if we assume that it has no combat value, to say that it has no value at all when it can add to unit cohesion and esprit de corps should give it enough value to keep.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Jan 20 at 2016 12:15 PM

LTC Stephen F. — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 12:15:42 -0500

One of the primary purposes of Drill and Ceremony is to instill discipline SPC David S.. While the ceremony can be more dog and pony at times, repetitive unit drill helps individual service members develop as part of a well-functioning team. We respond in crisis based on our training in large part. Drill from weapons drill through close order drill helps individuals and units function better as a team.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Jan 20 at 2016 4:03 PM

Capt Mark Strobl — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 16:03:57 -0500

Drill is also a basic form of transportation --getting a large group from point A to point B in an orderly fashion. I wouldn't trust a young NCO who couldn't get his platoon from the motor pool to the chow hall via the Converse Cadillac!

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jan 20 at 2016 10:23 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 20 Jan 2016 22:23:15 -0500

I would rather err on the side of killing skills.

Response by SPC James Harsh made Jan 21 at 2016 3:41 PM

SPC James Harsh — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:41:09 -0500

If you're a POG, you don't need D&C sure!

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2016 10:08 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 10:08:17 -0500

Yes ... Navy do drill too ....

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2016 1:57 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 13:57:56 -0500

It will always have a place. It's the very basics of how we do things

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2016 3:54 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 15:54:05 -0500

On the other hand, since this is the basis, could you imagine any formation, like a ship fleet, or aircraft all scattered, and not know how to coordinate maneuvers or anything among themselves?

Response by 1SG Jack Crutcher made Jan 24 at 2016 4:08 PM

1SG Jack Crutcher — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 16:08:06 -0500

I say no, it's been a pride, time honored tradition for many years. There have already been too many changes in the military. Military and Americans has already cut out or overlooked too many custom, values and traditions like respect, family reunions and raising your kids to cheat, steal, and take without consequences or giving back to community or Country.

Response by SPC Matt Davidson made Jan 24 at 2016 6:59 PM

SPC Matt Davidson — Sun, 24 Jan 2016 18:59:59 -0500

while Drill and ceremony is supposed to instill discipline, obedience to orders, moving as one etc.... if you can't do that without D&C there's something wrong.

Response by SSG Carl Keene made Jan 25 at 2016 12:15 PM

SSG Carl Keene — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:15:28 -0500

The short answer your looking for is found in your questiom: "It is thought to instill public confidence in a nation's military forces as well instill discipline in the troops." Without D&C discipline is comprimised.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2016 12:18 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:18:44 -0500

have to agree with sgt kennedy on this one.

Response by PO3 David Fries made Jan 25 at 2016 12:56 PM

PO3 David Fries — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:56:47 -0500

I have to ask this question of those that are against D&C; are you also against a things like the Blue Angels, fly overs, air shows, and other non combat related things like that? If you aren't against them, what is the primary difference?

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2016 11:57 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Jan 2016 23:57:01 -0500

Drill and ceremony are very important elements of the military. It instills discipline and Espirit De Corps within the unit. It is still worth the time and money spent on the drill field.

Response by Bill Kim made Jan 26 at 2016 12:42 AM

Bill Kim — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 00:42:27 -0500

Even as a single term airman from the U.S. Chair Force, I understand the idea behind drill. The derp who does not is the derp who is jockeying a desk and clearly the rearest of the rear echelon mother fuckers. I saw some inflammatory response on Faceyspace somewhere from some dumb fuck who said it had no place in the military. That was some idiot who got a trophy for participation. Whoever said drill had no place in the military should just pack his shit and get the fuck out. For us it was working together as a team, following order without being dumb, holding integrity as a unit. I hate how these kids are these days and how they just expect to be handed shit without learning or doing shit. Fucknuts.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Jan 26 at 2016 3:16 AM

1stSgt Eugene Harless — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 03:16:22 -0500

It's a good tool to teach discipline and to ensure orderly administrative movement of a unit from one place to another. On the other hand I've seen Senior NCOs in FMF units get completely wrapped around the axle on the subject. At one time Drill served a purpose in combat for tactically deploying units and massing fire with muskets. I prefered to spend more time during gun drills than COD.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2016 1:12 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Feb 2016 13:12:55 -0500

so im in the old guard which is the army's ceremonial and drill unit. i think it serves a big purpose in the military still for a few reason. such as uniform maitainence, leadership, the ability to not crack under strenious conditions. plus it also shows if a soldier can be the face of the army by paying attention to detail .

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2016 3:57 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 17 Feb 2016 15:57:07 -0500

Absolutely.

Response by LCpl Johnny Carroll made Mar 21 at 2017 8:52 PM

LCpl Johnny Carroll — Tue, 21 Mar 2017 20:52:14 -0400

teaches you to work as one

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Sep 10 at 2017 2:42 PM

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 14:42:10 -0400

If you give up D&C, you give up discipline, and from what I've heard, it is severely needed

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2017 4:59 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 16:59:11 -0400

Which of the following do we no longer have a need for? Excerpts from MCO P5060.20 Marine Corps Drill & Ceremonies Manual.

Purpose of Drill. Commanders use drill to:

a. Move units from one place to another in a standard, orderly manner.

b. Provide simple formations from which combat formations may be readily assumed.

c. Teach discipline by instilling habits of precision and automatic response to orders.

d. Increase the confidence of junior officers and noncommissioned officers through the exercise of command, by the giving of proper commands, and by the control of drilling troops.

e. Give troops an opportunity to handle individual weapons.

Response by PFC Sheila Harrison made Sep 10 at 2017 5:10 PM

PFC Sheila Harrison — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 17:10:23 -0400

The bottom option to vote speaks VOLUMES!!!!!

Response by PFC Sheila Harrison made Sep 10 at 2017 5:10 PM

PFC Sheila Harrison — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 17:10:52 -0400

The point of drill and ceremony is to teach precision, unison and discipline. If you can't Handel that get the hell out of the military

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2017 5:35 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 17:35:58 -0400

Drill was useful when we formed lines of battle in the days before modern warfare. Nowadays, it's only good for looking pretty during a pass in review. All it does is annoy Marines who have jobs to do in the real Corps, rather than instill discipline like it did in boot camp. Wanna instill discipline in the fleet? Try being an effective leader instead of wasting time practicing getting in step. One can use the "warfighting's roots are in drill" argument, but if you think marching around in a column of fours is relevant to warfare today, you're asking for mass casualties, putting emphasis on such an obsolete method of tactical movement.

Botton line: save drill for those high profile ceremonies and stop wasting time when there are more pressing things to attend to, like training for today's wars, regardless of which role you play in it.

Response by TSgt Marco McDowell made Sep 10 at 2017 6:15 PM

TSgt Marco McDowell — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 18:15:15 -0400

A year later and I'm still laughing at this post. I'm pretty certain being a windup doll helped create this country (thanks to Baron von Steuben!), besides to see a mass of troops performing in unison is awesome. But guess this guy doesn't realize his "warfighters" and their maneuver tactics are based off of simple close order formations.

Response by Maj John Bell made Sep 10 at 2017 7:14 PM

Maj John Bell — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 19:14:19 -0400

Their is such a thing as tactical formations. Column, wedge, vee, echelon left, echelon right, online. Each and every one of these formations has a distinct purpose assigning sectors of observation and the distribution of fires.

For instructional purposes, assume that a rifle company is conducting a tactical foot march; advancing on the enemy, position and disposition unknown. The Company Commander may order the Company to travel in a company wedge. (Terrain, vegetation, etc. etc. could make any other formation the best choice.)

The left most rifle platoon leader has now been tasked with observation and fire primarily to the front and left. Once gain terrain and vegetation make dictate and permutation of formations. Assume the terrain is close heavily vegetated. It may make sense to place this plat0on in a column, with the lead squad in an echelon left. Similar decisions are being made at the squad and fire team level. The center and rightmost platoons are also making similar decisions, heavily influenced by terrain and vegetation. During the course of the movement every leader at every level must constantly evaluate if he is in the best possible formation based on his mission, his unit's place in the overall formation, terrain, vegetation, cover concealment, and anticipated enemy contact. That calls for change. There are proper ways to move from one formation to another while maintaining observation, unmasked fields of fire. This is not parade close order drill, but the principles of maintain interval, orientation, rate of movement, etc. etc. are learned on the battalion parade deck. Otherwise its just a bunch of guys with guns going on a nature walk, with a high expectation of "friendly" firefights.

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Sep 10 at 2017 8:43 PM

Sgt Wayne Wood — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 20:43:52 -0400

Teaches unit cohesion... also differentiates Marines from the rest of the thundering herd ( "... hippity hop, mob stop ..." )

Response by MGySgt Rick Tyrrell made Sep 10 at 2017 8:59 PM

MGySgt Rick Tyrrell — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 20:59:06 -0400

Of course drill and ceremony have a place to truly instill discipline and obedience to orders in training and in battle. The problem is since our recent past conflicts our leadership is young and lacks garrison leadership and never understood the basic foundations of how we function without a conflict. If they only knew drill would be a great starting block backed by formations which is also gone due to cellphones.

Response by 1LT Tom Wilson made Sep 11 at 2017 7:35 AM

1LT Tom Wilson — Mon, 11 Sep 2017 07:35:10 -0400

Drill and Ceremony is a form of ballet and ballet is the absolute essence of personal peak performance and high performing team dynamics. The Drill and Ceremony gathered in FM 22-5 has conveyed from Baron General von Steubin's contribution to the Continental Army's cohesion and battlefield efficacy beginning at Valley Forge. If team work is vital on the battlefield, the esquisite interdependence of the military honor guard and the simple efficiency of file from the right is hardly a waste of time or money.

Response by PVT Raymond Lopez made Sep 11 at 2017 9:53 AM

PVT Raymond Lopez — Mon, 11 Sep 2017 09:53:38 -0400

When I read “Military Drill: Does the theory and purpose still hold true?” I confess that I started laughing so hard that I had to visit the head or befoul myself. When that question is asked I wonder if the several service academies teach military history anymore. Some years ago there was a scandal in Afghanistan concerning “ghost soldiers” and since I am a Pennsylvania boy I know all about “ghost employees” those are political appointees who are paid by the state and never show up to work. I will try to explain in the simplest terms possible “Once upon a time when colonels raised, equipped and paid their own Regiments the King’s Commissioners (paymasters) would visit and inspect the troops the neat and orderly rank made it easier to count them!! See what was forgotten in Afghanistan!

Response by BG Edward Burley made Oct 18 at 2018 1:40 PM

BG Edward Burley — Thu, 18 Oct 2018 13:40:17 -0400

Close-quarter drill was vital to military operations from the time of the Greek Phalanx through the American Civil War. It trained troops to move as a unit and to keep close to maximize the effectiveness of their weaponry, whether spears with shields or massed musket volleys. So, why do modern militaries continue to do it despite its lack of useful battlefield function?
First, drill instills discipline and a sense of teamwork in troops – a common purpose, obeying orders, and the importance of everyone acting as part of a unit. Drill breaks down the differences between people: you are no longer from a city or farm, white or black, poor or rich – you are now part of an Army, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard team. In this team, if just one person is off-step or doesn’t follow instructions, the whole formation fails the maneuver. Second, drill provides an efficient framework for personnel accountability (morning and evening formations) and a way to quickly move people from one location to another (to classes, work, motor pools). Third, drill provides an opportunity to train junior troops to become leaders: to give commands, take accountability, inspect. Fourth, in the big picture drill in the forms of parades instill public confidence in the Nation’s military forces.

Response by SGT Philip Roncari made Apr 3 at 2019 6:34 PM

SGT Philip Roncari — Wed, 03 Apr 2019 18:34:45 -0400

I do remember countless hour on the quadrangle learning basic drill and ceremony,funny how a bunch of never be a civilian again guys found out they really didn’t know their right from their left,from these seemingly simple movements and directions we learned discipline and unit integrity that stood us in good stead for further extensive training,on a personal level the memories of a certain SFC’s screams “Roncari you are goddamn bouncing “ still resonates.

Response by Maj John Bell made Apr 3 at 2019 10:25 PM

Maj John Bell — Wed, 03 Apr 2019 22:25:56 -0400

Maintaining interval, alignment, and understanding how to transition from one formation to the next, and weapons orientation are part and parcel of tactical movement.