Military likely to open most combat jobs to women. Your thoughts?

2015-08-18T19:17:58-04:00

Two women have now passed the Army's grueling Ranger test, and even tougher and more dangerous jobs could lie ahead. The military services are poised to allow women to serve in most front-line combat jobs, including special operations forces, senior officials told The Associated Press.

Based on early talks, officials say the Army, Navy and Air Force likely will not seek exceptions that close any jobs to women. Marine Corps leaders, they say, have expressed concerns about allowing women to serve in infantry jobs and yet may seek an exception.

The services are wrapping up reviews and must make their recommendations to Defense Secretary Ash Carter this fall. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the internal debate.

Read more at ...

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/pentagon/2015/08/18/officials-military-likely--open-most-combat-jobs--women/31945141/

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Officials: Military likely to open most combat jobs to women

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 7:19 PM

2015-08-18T19:19:56-04:00

For those that want to do this it's a great opportunity. Hind site is 20/20 and only time will tell if it is a good decision or not.

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made Aug 18 at 2015 7:21 PM

2015-08-18T19:21:30-04:00

**** RELATED ARTICLE ****

Navy SEALs to open to women, top admiral says ...

The Navy is planning to open its elite SEAL teams to women who can pass the grueling training regimen, the service's top officer said Tuesday in an exclusive interview.

Adm. Jon Greenert said he and the head of Naval Special Warfare Command, Rear Adm. Brian Losey, believe that if women can pass the legendary six-month Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL training, they should be allowed to serve.

"Why shouldn't anybody who can meet these [standards] be accepted? And the answer is, there is no reason," Greenert said Tuesday in an exclusive interview with Navy Times' sister publication Defense News. "So we're on a track to say, 'Hey look, anybody who can meet the gender non-specific standards, then you can become a SEAL.'"

Read more at ...

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/08/18/women-seals-greenert-losey-buds/31943243/

Navy SEALs set to open to women, top admiral says

The high-level push to integrate the storied SEAL brotherhood is coming on the heels of a comprehensive review.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Aug 18 at 2015 8:41 PM

2015-08-18T20:41:01-04:00

I am reminded what Rudyard Kipling wrote about the Afghan Women during the British Occupation a long time ago. It is preferable to take your rifle and blow your brains out over what the women would do to you if they got a hold of you. I am also reminded of the Fierce Fighters that the Women Peshmerga are.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Aug 18 at 2015 9:25 PM

2015-08-18T21:25:46-04:00

GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad I suspected this would happen. (A) I spent my life in the Army (33 years) in a branch that had women when I came in (MP) (minus several years as a Tanker when I was commissioned), so to me, I believe they should be allowed to do what ever they want to... so long as the meet the standards. My only caveat and/or concern is that jobs (MOSs) need job specific physical fitness standards, not gender based standards; two standards. The standards need to be for the job, school, course, specialty, etc. (B) Having spent a long time in the Army, I do not believe there will be a huge wave of interested women. There are many many men who are not interested in these tip of the spear jobs/specialties. (C) I believe if you have the heart (desire), and ability, then you should be have opportunity to try. We need to focus on gender neutral job based standards.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 9:32 PM

2015-08-18T21:32:22-04:00

There is more to it than passing a course.

There are women who want to be on the frontline, they are willing to pay the price of tough times, physical and mental stresses required to attain membership to the group of their choice, hazing, solitary assignments, proving themselves over and over in marksmanship, physical performance, tactics, and technical abilities, until the time comes when the men in their unit will not see their gender but will see a Soldier.

If they are willing to do what it takes then they should be allowed in.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Aug 18 at 2015 10:28 PM

2015-08-18T22:28:15-04:00

I don't see the doors getting beat down. I wish our administration would quit trying to capitalize on this. It doesn't matter what fills the uniform, just pick up your weapon and follow me.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 10:28 PM

2015-08-18T22:28:41-04:00

I think it is more of a matter of "when" rather than "if." If female soldiers are willing to sacrifice, face the same hardships, and meet the same physical standards it will be a reality of the future.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Aug 18 at 2015 10:34 PM

2015-08-18T22:34:05-04:00

GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad, the great experiment continues, but now in earnest. Some will succeed and some will fail, just like men. DOD will ultimately find our where women do well and where they don't, in jobs that heretofore have been closed to women.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 10:55 PM

2015-08-18T22:55:32-04:00

I say, make it so. Just don't adjust the standards to allow it. It is going to happen eventually.

Response by MSgt Keith Hebert made Aug 18 at 2015 11:14 PM

2015-08-18T23:14:01-04:00

As said in earlier comment I do not think women will be knocking down the doors.
1. The ranger tab looks great on the SRB
2. I do believe more women officers will take the plunge into combat arms due to command opportunities
3. Most enlisted personnel( men and women) already know how hard combat arms is on the mind and body
( the following is in caps for emphasis) DO NOT CALL SHARPS WHEN YOU GET YOU GET YOUR FEELINGS HURT.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2015 11:51 PM

2015-08-18T23:51:52-04:00

My thoughts. Do it right. The problem is that I don't know what right is, and I don't feel that many others do either. Most of those against, have been arguing that females can't do the job. Most of those for say, "oh, yes give females a chance, they'll be able to do fine." Both of these arguments are beside the point from my point of view. I've served with some piece of work male soldiers, who I'd be happy to replace with any female regardless of her physical stamina as long as she had a soldier's heart
I can't speak for special operations, as that's outside my league, but I can say that what we do, (light engineers) there are many women who could, and would do fine. I believe that for many of us in combat arms, saying "women can't hack it," is just a way to avoid talking about the hard subjects.

Combat arms is one of the few places left a man can be a man and not worry. We're afraid that women will ruin it. I don't worry about the jokes I tell or hear. I don't worry about who's watching while I scratch my nuts. If I want to drop my britches and moon one of my buddies while he's still crawling out of his fart sack in the morning I do. Don't worry about who's around or what they'll say. If I need to take a crap, and decide to make my buddies watch me by walking out in front of their fighting position and digging a cat hole: well I will. That's the start, but you get the idea.

The next issue is sex. Most male only units don't recall the last time or if ever they had an EO complaint, Sharp complaint or sexual assault. The guys get the same mandatory briefings everybody else gets, and say, "boy I'm glad we don't have to worry about that." I've said it, and heard it many times myself. We're worried that we'll have to start worrying. The Army hasn't solved the sex assault and sexual harassment issue by any means yet, and we were pretty much exempt till now.

We're worried that women will ruin the esprit de corp. I know this sounds awful, but if you haven't been in combat arms, I don't think you can understand. I've served in an integrated unit, and I don't believe it was the women who ruined it at all, but it sure wasn't the same. And there were those 12bravos who were convinced it was the females. I believe that some of this could be alleviated by the Army changing the way it treats females, and I'll try to elaborate on that more in the following paragraphs.

I've listed a few worries, and tried to get you into the mindset of a 12b. To follow are a few solutions that I believe the Army should implement to help ease the integration of females.
For background, I deployed to Afghanistan with a vertical engineer unit, which is integrated. Each squad was given a B-hut, but the females were segregated into their own hootches. Most of the deployment the females complained that they were left out. It was only a natural result of the segregation. Nobody would consider it okay if soldiers of various ethnicities were hootched separately, but called equal. When our squad leader needed a task done, he'd tell a couple joes in our hootch to make it happen. When we played a game of cards, we'd ask the guys in the bhut. Of course the females got left out. It wasn't ever right, but it's the natural result of the Army protecting females from their comrades. Which brings me to my next point.
I understand protecting soldiers from the predators in our midst. But do they need to be protected from all of us? No. I honestly believe that although many of us are a little rough around the edges, female troops would be much better served by being integrated into the squad and made part of the team rather than being set apart as "the females." Have unisex latrines. Set male shower hours and female shower hours. Put up a couple ponchos at one end of the Bhut to give the females needed physical privacy, but don't separate them. Drop the crap about same gender battle buddy pairs. Are you kidding me? I can't be trusted not to harm a female troop on the way to the chow hall?
Set and enforce equal standards. I'm not just talking about PT, but about rifle quals, and soldier tasks. I have watched female troops get walked through crap that I'm quite sure a male would have gotten destroyed for. Why? Because a male NCO didn't have the balls to do what was right!
The Army needs to also decide what to do about sex. Either enforce current rules, or decide that they're stupid and scrap them. But either way, saying one thing and doing another is an open invitation to drama. Anybody who's deployed in an integrated environment should understand this.
I rambled on enough. Maybe I should turn this into an essay. Problem is, I don't care enough, about proper writing, so it'll stay an online rant.
I'm personally and honestly not excited about women integrating into the combat engineer MOS. I do not doubt that it's going to happen, or that we'll make it work. I also promise if you're reading this as a female, and you reclass to 12b, and our paths cross, I WILL treat you with respect and fairness, and as an equal, because that's where the path to success starts going forward.
I hope this helps somebody understand combat arms a little, I hope I didn't piss anybody off too bad, and if you actually read this far, Thank you.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made Aug 19 at 2015 12:39 AM

2015-08-19T00:39:37-04:00

I like the idea of combat field openning to female, It better if we work together.

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made Aug 19 at 2015 4:15 AM

2015-08-19T04:15:14-04:00

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Seven years ago at age 35, SSG Sonia Buchanan joined the Wisconsin Army National Guard with her sights set on personal and professional growth. She’s shattered that goal ever since, breaking one glass ceiling after another.

The shattering part begins in 2010, when the Army put out a memo that it was looking for the very first female volunteers to deploy with the Army Rangers and Special Forces to Afghanistan as part of a Cultural Support Team. SSG Buchanan immediately recognized the chance to serve alongside two of the most respected units in the military.

Read more at ...

http://jobs.nationalguard.com/ngb/blog/pushing-the-boundaries-every-chance-she-gets/

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Pushing the Boundaries Every Chance She Gets | National Guard Jobs: On Your Guard

Staff Sgt. Sonia Buchanan, a Wisconsin Army National Guard Soldier who has already deployed with Special Forces in Afghanistan, is now one of the first female Soldiers in the 1st Squadron, 105th Cavalry Regiment. (Wisconsin National Guard photo by Capt. Joe Trovato)

Response by CSM(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2015 8:22 AM

2015-08-19T08:22:23-04:00

I welcome women into every single corner of the military, no matter what job, specialty, or special skill criteria that may require. As long as each individual is held to one single standard, not separate standards for male and females, then everyone and anyone deserves the opportunity to test their individual metal. If you can nut up, dig deep, and do the job at the same level (or beyond) as your peers, then you should be allowed to go wherever your career and opportunity can take you. Gender should not limit a person's options to excel. Not every male Soldier can be, wants to be, or will be a ranger. The same can be said for females. When assessing to be a Ranger, there is one standard, and that is the Ranger Standard. There is not a standard for male rangers and one for female rangers. When assessing for Special Forces, Navy Seals, or any other SOF skill set, there should be one standard and that should be the present standard required to achieve that goal or title when is striving for. If standards are lowered in any way, to there by facilitate integration and numbers, then the high quality of service members in that particular community will fall, and ultimately, it will cost lives in the end.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 19 at 2015 11:22 AM

2015-08-19T11:22:51-04:00

I don't worry about them being shot, injured, but worry about them being captured.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2015 11:44 AM

2015-08-19T11:44:26-04:00

1985 the Air Force opened combat jobs to women, with the exception of special operations career fields. With that in mind, integrating other combat jobs in other branches of the military will not suddenly cause the world to end.
*Break Break* Unless the military does away with separate PT standards there will continue to be issues. The current lower PT standards are a safety concern for everyone. When a troop can max out their PT score but can't carry their own gear...When everyone has cleared the kill zone, except for the female who can't keep up...When you have to pick the female up because she can't get off the ground in her gear...When the female can't get out of the vehicle because the door is too heavy...When you can't focus on the mission because you have to make sure someone is helping the female...All that makes women as a whole look bad; because there are women who don't fall behind, who can carry their weight, women who will beat you to cover, women who are more pissed off at the one falling behind then you could ever be.

The problem is not women in combat, the problem is lower physical standards for women.
In combat Murphy don't care about your gender!

Response by SFC Stephen King made Aug 19 at 2015 12:41 PM

2015-08-19T12:41:55-04:00

My thoughts are regardless of gender if you can ruck up or do the job go for it!

Response by SFC Timothy Dutcher made Aug 19 at 2015 2:14 PM

2015-08-19T14:14:43-04:00

I don't have a problem opening up every MOS to anyone regardless of gender. The problem I have is there are currently some men who can't handle being in combat arms. Every MOS selection should be contingent on a physical standard requirement following basic training and before AIT. There should be a non-gender MOS specific physical standard test to continue into chosen MOS or immediately reclassify. It will be too expensive to keep allowing men and women to sign up for infantry, for example, and then be chaptered because they are unable to meet unit standards. I was light infantry and we had somewhere in the neighborhood of 30% attrition in the first year of our duty station due to the inability to physically keep up. If a woman can do it, more power to her and I see no problem in affording that opportunity, but at what cost? Develop a minimum physical requirement for each MOS, a suitable test to determine if a soldier meets that requirement, and if they fail then reclassify into a MOS where they can best serve the military. Make this a mandatory requirement for everyone between Basic and AIT where this type of intervention would best serve the military. If a soldier wants to reclassify at a later time, again they have to meet MOS specific physical requirements. It is time for the PT tests to reflect MOS requirements, not gender or age, and utilized as a entry requirement into those MOS fields.

Response by SPC James Butler made Aug 19 at 2015 4:36 PM

2015-08-19T16:36:33-04:00

I don't see an issue with opening up all positions. It's a matter of offering an opportunity. What I am against is the politics behind it all. Don't pick and choose who you want to see in the ranks. This is an all-volunteer military and it should be just that; a person on their free will signs up for IET, then schools, etc.

Response by SSgt Charles Edwards made Aug 20 at 2015 12:08 PM

2015-08-20T12:08:35-04:00

I'll leave my opinion in the form of the old saying, "Hell hath no fury than a woman's scorn!" I'll embrace the idea of female combat troops with open arms.

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Aug 20 at 2015 7:31 PM

2015-08-20T19:31:42-04:00

Give them the stick (aviation)(done), clacker (engineer), lanyard (artillery), rifle (infantry), or tank (armor), hold the standards, and see if they can do it. It they can, their in.

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made Aug 21 at 2015 3:03 AM

2015-08-21T03:03:36-04:00

Marines' decision on women in combat expected in weeks ...

The Marine Corps is just weeks away from a decision on whether to open all combat jobs to women or ask for exceptions, a spokesman for Commandant Gen. Joseph Dunford said Thursday.

Dunford awaits a comprehensive report containing data on the feasibility of women entering ground combat jobs. The report will lean heavily on findings derived from a nine-month infantry experiment that monitored male and female volunteers in a simulated ground combat unit as they worked together to complete infantry tasks. The task force wrapped up its assessments earlier this summer and disbanded last month.

The report will also include data from other Marine Corps integration experiments dating from late 2012, when the service temporarily opened its infantry officer training to female volunteers. The following year, the Corps opened its enlisted infantry training to women. In all, 122 enlisted women graduated from Infantry Training Battalion for a pass rate of 34 percent; none of the 27 female officers who attempted the Infantry Officer Course within the testing period graduated.

Read more at ...

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/08/20/marines-decision-women-combat-expected-weeks/32065377/

Marines' decision on women in combat expected in weeks

Dunford awaits a comprehensive report containing data on the feasibility of women entering ground combat jobs.

Response by PO3 David Fries made Aug 21 at 2015 5:52 AM

2015-08-21T05:52:13-04:00

As long as they can do the job, I could care less if it's male, female, black, white, purple, or dogapuss!

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Aug 21 at 2015 9:25 AM

2015-08-21T09:25:51-04:00

Well got a question. If the women are going to be in the Infantry, means that there will be female medics. I can remember carrying 180 lbs of gear for me and the team. Medic's carry an extra 60lbs (give or take) medic bag. That 200 lbs or so. I have know good male medics crumble under that weight. Are the females going to be able to physically do this. I know that there are a lot that can. Not saying that they can't. Are they going to search the different female medics and say you can but you can't? Wouldn't that be discrimination? Is there any medics or female medics that want to chime in. Just a question.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2015 2:26 PM

2015-08-31T14:26:31-04:00

I don't think this is a good idea, for several reasons. Without getting into the physical differences between men and women to say nothing of the way men and women think differently and respond to stress differently, and the fact remains entry level training is by no means the most demanding thing you will do in an infantry unit. Integrating a one or even a couple women into an infantry unit creates problems with no benefit to the unit that I can see. I'm certainly open to any input in regards to how integrating women into combat arms, specifically infantry, will make the unit more combat effective, I just don't see it.
Best case, you get the 1 in 100 females who can hack it, physically, mentally and emotionally, she checks into F Co 2nd Bn 2nd Marines, with a barracks at 89% capacity, now you have to find a place for her to live, and since she's the only female, must have her own room. Which means she takes up 2-3 rack spaces. Something this small can create animosity within a platoon.
After 14 years in the grunts, I just don't think the juice is worth the squeeze.

Response by BG Keith Gallagher, FACHE made Dec 4 at 2015 9:09 AM

2015-12-04T09:09:23-05:00

The military has been the "petri dish" of experimental social interventions over the past century. Women will do great in combat and already part of the military culture and heritage. They will perform just as our male counterparts. We have had women KIA, POW, and injured so the asymmetrical combat zone has already had them in firefights. Welcome them. Demand they meet the high standards. And, let them do the job.

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Dec 12 at 2015 9:48 PM

2015-12-12T21:48:45-05:00

There's a common sense reason for this.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/04/vast-majority-of-special-ops-dont-want-women-in-their-units/

71 Percent Of Special Forces Operators Don’t Want Women In Their Unit

A survey conducted by the RAND Corporation has found incredible opposition among special operators to integrating women into special forces occupations. These occupations have previously been male-

Response by Matt McCormick made Dec 18 at 2015 10:16 AM

2015-12-18T10:16:22-05:00

I think it is a good idea

Response by PO1 Kerry French made Mar 4 at 2017 11:28 PM

2017-03-04T23:28:06-05:00

If they can pass the test without standards being lowered for them - go for it.