My First Sergeant made me break a profile, even after reading it himself, resulting in a trip to the ER. Should he be held liable and how?

2017-07-26T14:04:12-04:00

My First sergeant placed me on a detail that would have me breaking my profile. When i told him as much and said that i needed to call my NCO to have a replacement sent in my stead he said i would do no such thing and since my profile did not set an actual limit as to how much i could handle then i would be doing the detail regardless. The part of the profile we are concerned about goes as follows, "do not do any physical work such as heavy lifting or exercise". As far as why i didn't ignore him as one suggested and not break my profile, my 1st Sergeant was present for the entirety of the detail so I couldn't just ignore him. I am not trying to have my 1st Sergeant relieved or kicked out or anything of the sort i'm just looking for a way to address the issue professionally as i was hurt because of this and i do not wish to have this happen again to myself or another.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2017 2:34 PM

2017-07-26T14:34:53-04:00

What is your profile for and how did he make you break it? Your question is very vague and it gives off the perception you're only goal is to get him in trouble.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2017 2:35 PM

2017-07-26T14:35:05-04:00

What exactly are you not able to do and are able to do and what did your 1SG have you do?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2017 2:41 PM

2017-07-26T14:41:24-04:00

Follow up question: Why did you violate your profile knowing what you can and can't do, regardless of what your 1SG said?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2017 3:24 PM

2017-07-26T15:24:20-04:00

That was not a legal order. Orders to supersede a profile have to come from the unit commander.
A First Sergeant should know this. Do you know whether the 1SG was conveying an order from the CO or if he was acting independently?
As far as accountability goes, people get relieved for this sort of thing. You need to determine how hard you want to go at this. What is your desired outcome, now that the damage has been done?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2017 5:26 PM

2017-07-26T17:26:33-04:00

My understanding is that commanders can no longer unilaterally override a profile. We can only determine deployability for MRC 3 and 4 depending on the DL condition. Commanders cannot ignore the medical restrictions and instructions listed on a profile. If we disagree we can contact the provider and discuss clarification/ recommend modification, but ultimately it is at their discretion. If the command chooses to ignore or overrule a profile, and the Soldier is injured, the command can be held liable.

I don't know the specifics of your situation, so I don't know exactly what occurred. Its a very serious accusation and I would discuss it with your commander.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2017 6:46 PM

2017-07-26T18:46:27-04:00

It seems the comment regarding the details of the encounter was deleted so i will put them here. My First sergeant placed me on a detail that would have me breaking my profile. When i told him as much and said that i needed to call my NCO to have a replacement sent in my stead he said i would do no such thing and since my profile did not set an actual limit as to how much i could handle then i would be doing the detail regardless. The part of the profile we are concerned about goes as follows, "do not do any physical work such as heavy lifting or exercise". As far as why i didn't ignore him as one suggested and not break my profile, my 1st Sergeant was present for the entirety of the detail so I couldn't just ignore him. I am not trying to have my 1st Sergeant relieved or kicked out or anything of the sort i'm just looking for a way to address the issue professionally as i was hurt because of this and i do not wish to have this happen again to myself or another.

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made Jul 27 at 2017 11:15 AM

2017-07-27T11:15:56-04:00

All I can say is ask to speak to your Commander and if you don't get satisfaction go to the IG with their open door policy. As others have said be sure you have all documentation, unfounded accusations or misunderstandings etc will not go in your favor. Have you also contacted the Health Care provider who wrote your profile??

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Jul 27 at 2017 3:35 PM

2017-07-27T15:35:01-04:00

I am guessing things have changed much since my day but I don't remember any 1SG's reaching down and putting specific Soldiers on details. I remember Top telling PSG's I need (This Many) for this detail. Then the PSG would hit each Squad leader for bodies for the determined detail. Profiles were given work to do but always within the profile. I remember vividly troops coming back to the unit with their profiles and the PSG sitting down and looking them over with a fine tooth comb. Good troops were always given the trust they earned because nobody wanted to lose them due to the injury. Shit birds were watched like hawks and given all work within their profile allowance.
As for a 1SG sitting in on a detail all day I find that hard to believe, he/she either has better things to be doing for the company or the NCO's in that company are weak and that's the 1SG's issue.

Response by 1SG John Martin made Jul 27 at 2017 5:43 PM

2017-07-27T17:43:22-04:00

Heavy lifting. Now there's a vague term. I had a guy on "quarters during duty hours". You sound like a profile rider.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Jul 30 at 2017 4:14 PM

2017-07-30T16:14:38-04:00

Seens ridiculous for a First Shirt to risk his career for something so trivial. I don't know much but I'm going to assume he thinks your malingering. If you completed the task then he proved his point I guess, but it's a bit reckless. Takes a lot for a Top to take a ding though, if you really couldn't you shouldn't have your medical covered you.

This stuff is sad, every Sr Nco ive ever had was terriffic, they're job was to help and they did. I suspect that these reports on toxic leaders are bogus, pushed by non hackers who would rather skate than do their job. No real Sr Nco would ever hang someone out to dry that was legit. Just my take on a pretty vague post.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2017 4:36 PM

2017-07-30T16:36:08-04:00

I was about a month from being out on med retirement 1sg had me do a PT test. I was on a dead mans profile. I did miserable on purpose and boy were they not happy.

Response by PFC Cedric Powell made Jul 30 at 2017 5:04 PM

2017-07-30T17:04:10-04:00

This seems a little far fetched to me. When a profile is presented from the lowest level up, I know for a fact 1SG gets a copy, if 1SG has questions, I am 100% sure that there will be a meeting with you and the chain for clarification. If by that point there is still confusion, the provider is contacted.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2017 5:14 PM

2017-07-30T17:14:27-04:00

Your 1SG is garbage.

Your PSG is garbage.

I had several "leaders" who thought they knew better than the doctor did. I'd protest to my ability, and then I'd let someone bigger than me do it. I had to have the Full Bird who did my TWO SPINAL SURGERIES chew my idiot 1SG to pieces, because he wanted me to do shit I was in no way capable of doing. He just didn't care. And yes, I'd tell your damn 1SG myself that he isn't shit.

Response by 1SG Bill Farmerie made Jul 30 at 2017 5:20 PM

2017-07-30T17:20:53-04:00

You should go back and get a properly written profile, with what you can do. "heavy lifting" how much is heavy? For some physical work could be breathing. A profile is supposed to be measurable. like not lift more than x lbs. Have them do a DA 3349 and fill out block 11

Response by 1SG John Martin made Jul 30 at 2017 5:27 PM

2017-07-30T17:27:12-04:00

He has his NCO chain that he didn't use. He has his officer chain, which he didn't use. He has the medical chain, which he didn't use, he has the IG chain, which he didn't use, and he has the congressioanal chain, which he didn't use. He went to social media. That should tell you all you need to know about this story.

Response by CW4 Leonard White made Jul 30 at 2017 5:40 PM

2017-07-30T17:40:22-04:00

I'm shaking my head. In my 30+ year career I have seen Commanders and NCOs burned for not following the intent and "spirit" of a soldier's legitimate profile. My advice to anyone who questions a soldier's profile is check it out...go talk to the medical staff if you are unsure of its limits. Why leaders can't do this (or have a representative do it) is beyond me. Get off your ass and go to clinic or hospital or pick up the phone and call, I found most of the time someone knowledgeable will answer your questions, and being "busy" is no excuse not to do the right thing, it's not a life and death situation if that soldier is not part of a detail or doesn't do PT for a day or two. Why take the chance of physically harming a soldier for the rest of his damn life? The VA has enough business already!

Response by SGT Shawn Sullivan made Jul 30 at 2017 5:43 PM

2017-07-30T17:43:09-04:00

One thing you have not explained, is how you got injured doing this detail. And I agree with the Senior NCOs that have stated that the profiling officer was to vague in your limitations. This should have been corrected immediately. If your NCOs support you in this, then they should be be providing you guidance. We don't know enough about the situation to provide you with the best advice

Response by SPC John Decker made Jul 30 at 2017 6:19 PM

2017-07-30T18:19:23-04:00

Chain of Command

Response by SFC Steve Ouellette made Jul 30 at 2017 7:02 PM

2017-07-30T19:02:05-04:00

Overall your Commander has responsibility of whether te profile is to be followed or not. Does your commander know he is you do something to break profile? He is the only one who can accept the risk of going out of the range fans on your profile. If anything I would have utilized the CO open door policy to address it so your CO and 1SG could have discussed it and made the determination... 98% of the time tie Commander likes his career too much to allow u to break that profile, because if he orders u to and u get hurt, it is his ass....

Response by 1SG Stephen Burgess made Jul 30 at 2017 7:22 PM

2017-07-30T19:22:37-04:00

As a 1SG, I wouldn't even entertain such a poorly worded profile. I can't imagine someone with 10 years of higher education, the Doc, not being able articulate their intent any better than that. I would have immediately called the provider that wrote that crazy profile and demanded they rewrite and be WAY more specific. Otherwise, the provider is forcing me to interpret their meaning and that could have disastrous results for the Soldier. I'd definitely have the commander involved too.
I'd also advise you to never directly challenge a 1SG. Use your commander's open door policy. If that fails, go see your CSM or Battalion CO.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2017 7:57 PM

2017-07-30T19:57:31-04:00

Sounds like your profile was crap or vague to begin with, and the 1SG put you on detail withi n the constraints of said profile. There is no other reason a 1SG would select specific individuals for details in my experience. How often asre you on profile, and are you seeing a military Dr, or just getting vague civilian Dr notes?

Response by SFC Rob Frisk made Jul 30 at 2017 9:38 PM

2017-07-30T21:38:59-04:00

Hard to believe the 1SG was in FLL business- there's some issues in that company.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2017 9:54 AM

2017-07-31T09:54:02-04:00

Use your COC, or go yourself to the Dr. who wrote profile have them clarify what your limitations are. Then present it to the squad leader PLT Sgt up the chain. Then they will get the message loud and clear. This will enlighten those needing clarification and not place you as the BAD SOLDIER, Shirker, Malingerer. Been there myself while attending ANOC. But we had NCO's that were competent. All turn out well for myself.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2017 6:00 PM

2017-07-31T18:00:55-04:00

Why are you handling this on your own? Where TF is your chain? If on of my soldiers went to the ER, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would be in there trying to asses my Soldier. Not just because a good leader needs to know if his /her squad of FMC, but, presumably because of some level of care and concern.

Then, I would consult with my PSG and accompany him to have a talk with the 1SG, and probably the commander about why this situation devolved into this soup sandwich.

This post is 5 days old now, and I assume that after a working week to deal with this, you have taken the good advice given anyway and have some answers.

Since you seem to want or have to take this on yourself, get pet proper documentation and utilize the command team open door policy (through your COC). As a side note, I am a bit surprised (for lack of a better word) about your TBI. I can only assume it was a mild consussion. I am not (human) medical professional. However, my veterinary training does provide enough knowledge to have more than a lay understanding of this. Often, TBI require reassessments on a periodic basis within a relatively short period after the initial injury. It can also result in a permanent 2.

I feel like something is missing here. TBIs are serious enough that I can imagine the senior leadership blowing it off. It's not the same as breaking profile to limp through a sprained ankle, for example.

If you were back in the ER after breaking a profile written about a TBI, there most assuredly was a new assessment done at the hospital. Were you given a new profile?

Response by PFC Jonathan Albano made Aug 1 at 2017 1:51 AM

2017-08-01T01:51:09-04:00

I would have used the open door policy before being sent on the detail in the first place, however, that's neither here nor there at this point. You'll want to talk to your commander and make it clear that you're not looking to get your 1Sg relieved that you just want to raise awareness to the issue. If that doesn't lead to a satisfactory resolution, you will want to talk to IG.

Furthermore, I would schedule an appointment to get your provider to write more specific limitation. Insist on quantifiable verbiage such as "lift no more than x lbs." "pushups at own pace and tolerance" and so on. If preventing this from happening again is part of your goal, ensuring the provider knows to be more specific needs to be part of your battle plan.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2017 1:46 PM

2017-08-02T13:46:31-04:00

Don't buy it. No NCO has the authority to do that. Only a commander (see Captain or higher) has the ability to do that, provided they take all the risks if the soldier is further hurt.

Response by 1SG Clifford Barnes made Aug 6 at 2017 10:13 AM

2017-08-06T10:13:15-04:00

I have never known a 1SG picking a detail. Usual the PSG provides soldiers for details. I think the PSG should have stepped in and handled the situation. I have never seen a 1SG babysit a detail. If the NCO's cannot handle the details then they are replaced. It comes down to a leadership ship problem.. I being a retired 1SG would have replaced the PSG and if they could not do their job. Any squad leader etc who has to be babysitter would be replaced.We don't have time to hold their hands we are soldiers and Leaders period. I have never seen a 1SG deliberately violate a profile and if one did he needs to have a good talking too and counciled.

Response by 1SG Joseph Wilcox made Oct 17 at 2017 9:52 AM

2017-10-17T09:52:41-04:00

When I was the 1sgt I hated profiles such as yours. Nothing against the individual but it sliced into my unit as far as training for war. Your 1sgt was somewhat flaky on who should call whom and having you break your profile.a profile should NEVER be broken nor should it be that the sm was to do it. I told my sms to “respectly decline to perform a duty that involves comprising my profile.” It’s frustrating on both sides of the coin. Good luck and Air Assualt!

Response by SFC Joseph Lumpkins made Dec 18 at 2017 11:15 AM

2017-12-18T11:15:15-05:00

I was a small group leader for ANCOC (1999) and I had undergone a major foot surgery and was on crutches plus a profile and we were getting ready to go to the one day field training that we did in ANCOC and my 1SG said SFC Lumpkins you will be doing this and that while we were in the field. I said 1SG I am on crutches with a non weight bearing cast and I can’t go to the field. His comment was where in your profile does it say you can’t go to the field. I had to go back to the doctor and have him put in my profile that I was not allowed to walk on uneven ground to keep me from going to the field. Sometimes common sense does prevail.

Response by MSG Dale Lee made Dec 18 at 2017 11:57 PM

2017-12-18T23:57:48-05:00

As a former 1sg I don't understand the involvement or supervision personally, and there seems to be a lot missing. A senior NCO knows a profile limits, and they can't be over ridden by him alone. I suggest you use your chain of command for any wrong doings you feel against yourself. Every unit has a procedure for complaints, follow it!

Response by SPC David Willis made Dec 19 at 2017 9:46 AM

2017-12-19T09:46:02-05:00

Cant believe how many people aren't buying this story. First of all a younger soldier is never going to go against his 1sgt... ever. There is absolute authority and in many cases absolute fear of directly challenging a 1SGT. Secondly a soldier doesn't write his own profile, and they also don't often second guess them because guess what... they're written by an officer who young soldiers also aren't too likely to question.

I have no respect for anyone that thinks they know better than doctors. I had a distended testicle from a ruck march and could still do some forms of PT because I asked the doc to go easy on my profile, so basically I could do upper body workouts and some abs. PT test comes around and my SFC says I should do the parts of the test that I can do which makes sense so I pass the PU and SU portion than sit out the run and he fails me and flags me because I started the test and he claimed I broke my profile so I should have passed the run. Took all of my bearing not to fight him there on the track.

Sure there are folks who ride profiles, but there are also good soldiers who get hurt while doing simple things like IDK... training to fight wars and kill people.

Response by MAJ Daniel Flynn made Dec 19 at 2017 10:03 AM

2017-12-19T10:03:38-05:00

And what kind of heavy work does a signals intelligence analyst do, exactly?

Response by SSG Shirley Hudson made Dec 19 at 2017 10:08 AM

2017-12-19T10:08:17-05:00

The doctor wrote it for a reason. I was in the Army for 17 years active duty and never once did a superior or even a subordinate ever tell me that I had to do something or I was required to do something. The profile is there so you do not create more harm to your body than already is.

Response by MSG Izy Veguillacruz made Dec 19 at 2017 10:40 AM

2017-12-19T10:40:42-05:00

One word JAG

Response by SFC Charles Kauffman made Dec 19 at 2017 10:43 AM

2017-12-19T10:43:33-05:00

Sounds like you have a "no butthurting" profile. Maybe you should consider a civilian career in the food service industry.

In every unit I ever served in, troops would fight to get OFF profile.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2017 10:43 AM

2017-12-19T10:43:48-05:00

What was the detail and what was the profile for?

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2017 10:44 AM

2017-12-19T10:44:13-05:00

Only see one side of the tale?

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Dec 19 at 2017 10:52 AM

2017-12-19T10:52:14-05:00

What detail was assigned to you? Your profile doesn't exempt you from everything useless you are bedridden.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Dec 19 at 2017 10:54 AM

2017-12-19T10:54:42-05:00

Get on the Company Commander or CSMs calendar and bring your profile and subsequent treatment sheet with you when you go. It's unusual that "Top" was supervising the entire detail personally.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Dec 19 at 2017 11:07 AM

2017-12-19T11:07:46-05:00

The doctor who saw you in the ER and at any subsequent follow-up appointment needs to modify the profile to state the weight limit you can lift. For example, "such as weights over 14 pounds". This should straighten out the problem for the term of the profile. As far a reporting the 1st Sgt, I recommend the IG. I seldom recommend anybody go to the IG, but this looks like a case of the SNCO ignoring the profile, which should be against Army regulation, resulting in the injury of a Soldier. Make sure you have at least one witness available who can back up your story.

Response by TSgt Rudy Adame made Dec 19 at 2017 11:16 AM

2017-12-19T11:16:37-05:00

Military is military, you have no right. As long as they don't kill you.

Response by SGT James Skelton made Dec 19 at 2017 11:20 AM

2017-12-19T11:20:47-05:00

Make sure you document everything with names, ranks and times. If there were any witnesses around document them as well. If the injury gets worse make sure you go to sick call and it get annotated in your records!!! When you get out while clearing get a full copy of your medical record. Trust me! it will come in handy when you go to the VA and have to be seen for a service connected injury and when they tell you its not in your records you can give them a copy and say "Oh you mean this!" and then you will be service connected!!

Response by SGT Andrew Howard made Dec 19 at 2017 11:45 AM

2017-12-19T11:45:47-05:00

IG to get clarification on the rules, if thru find something wrong they will reach out to the command and educate the command team

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2017 4:30 PM

2017-12-19T16:30:18-05:00

Hello, I'm actually a medic in the army. If you feel comfortable, I was wondering if I could see a copy of your profile via a private message? I could help you identify if there is actual cause to move higher.

Response by CPL Jerry R Brown made Dec 19 at 2017 4:46 PM

2017-12-19T16:46:28-05:00

Go back to Dr or er let them know

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2017 6:00 PM

2017-12-19T18:00:25-05:00

you are a number this whole perception that they care about u is false... They don't care about you or your health...

Response by SGT Lenny Johnston made Dec 19 at 2017 6:38 PM

2017-12-19T18:38:53-05:00

Why is a 1SGT throwing people in a detail?..this shit needs to be handed down..Plt Sgts...so forth..

Response by SGM Chad Trangsrud made Dec 19 at 2017 6:39 PM

2017-12-19T18:39:54-05:00

I guess the 1sg should have been shown can't see a senior nco not knowing something is not right with the story

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2017 8:46 PM

2017-12-19T20:46:21-05:00

I agree with 1SG Hicks and SFC ( verify to see). You describe your situation very vaguely. Your 1SG would not disregard the limits of your profile and you PSG should have known your limitations. This just doesn't even sound like something a 1SG would do.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2017 9:45 PM

2017-12-19T21:45:51-05:00

Go to IG lol

Response by SSG Mark Bundy made Dec 19 at 2017 9:46 PM

2017-12-19T21:46:39-05:00

Your deatails are too vague to draw any conclusions. I have seen a situation when a pregnant soldier was forced to break profile in my wife’s unit. This particular detail task actually caused a miscarriage. Before the ball really got rolling for IG, these two NCO’s miraculously came down on levy to Korea.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2017 11:46 PM

2017-12-19T23:46:44-05:00

It's the CO who is ultimately responsible. Just saying. 1SG is the mother of troops. But the Officers are the ones who catch the legal beaurocratic bullshit.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2017 11:48 PM

2017-12-19T23:48:22-05:00

And he's a 35 series. Why the fuck are you asking shit on here. Use your brain and dig in the regulations

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2017 1:58 AM

2017-12-20T01:58:43-05:00

IG or CSM

Response by Cpl Crystal Galvan-Casas made Dec 20 at 2017 8:41 AM

2017-12-20T08:41:08-05:00

Profiles???? In the Corps we had no such thing. Of course that was over 40 years ago. We were told to do something by any superior you did what you could to do it. Told to move a 55 gallon oil drum that was full from one side of the shop to another, ( a SGT who didn’t want females in the shop). Since I couldn’t do it manually I stopped a PFC who was passing by with a hi-lo to give me a hand. The SGT did not like that it got done but he was told by the CAPT to deal with it. I got the job done. :).

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2017 10:50 AM

2017-12-20T10:50:46-05:00

If you are not trying to get him relieved, why are you publicly complaining about it?

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2017 10:57 AM

2017-12-20T10:57:55-05:00

Well as a 68W I can tell you profiles are advice your chain of command can ignore it and put you’re little heart havin ass back to work.

Response by CPT Craig Mathison made Dec 20 at 2017 11:12 AM

2017-12-20T11:12:27-05:00

I don’t necessarily believe the person who posted this. Like it was said earlier it sounds like they’re lying when they sos that they’re not trying to get the 1SG I’m trouble. That’s exactly what they’re trying to do. The poster sounds like a high drag troop that doesn’t want to work and creates chaos and drama to get others in trouble when they’re the problem

Response by SGT Mark Halmrast made Dec 20 at 2017 11:23 AM

2017-12-20T11:23:52-05:00

What are those yellow things across your chest? Just curious.

Response by PO2 Alexander Gonzalez made Dec 20 at 2017 11:42 AM

2017-12-20T11:42:35-05:00

When I was a corpsman with the USMC I had a Gunny and a Top from I&I try to get my patient (a marine) off of SIQ and send the devil dog back to the field. I went toe to toe with the Gunny and Top then the next thing we were all before the Colonel. They got spanked and I got liberty. I would raise hell when marines broke pprofil its unsat and undermines the corpsman or medic.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2017 11:58 AM

2017-12-20T11:58:43-05:00

Terribly written. Have no clue what happened.

Response by SPC Robert Conway made Dec 20 at 2017 2:16 PM

2017-12-20T14:16:47-05:00

I love how all of you are tripping over yourselves in an effort to give the 1SG an out and making the soldier a dirtbag.

Here is a thought, get over yourselves and give injured soldiers a real chance to heal. Who gives a crap if someone is malingering, if you cripple a good soldier in the process of not letting a lazy one get over, was it really worth it?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2017 2:39 PM

2017-12-20T14:39:06-05:00

Use the open door policy. Or if you can’t work then leave he army.

Response by MSG Bob Metz made Dec 20 at 2017 4:36 PM

2017-12-20T16:36:54-05:00

What was this 1SG’s reaction to your injury due to participation in the detail? If he did not react in some way that his actions may be responsible for your injury - you should take some action to try to ensure he is more receptive to what a Profile is and that he will takes steps in future not to put another soldier- that he is charged to protect in any danger. Technically a soldier that does not follow their Profile is subject to the USMJ, as is anyone that places the soldier in a position that violates that Profile.

Personally, I feel that some action needs to be take to ensure this does not happen again. Your reticence is understandable, but there are was to try to solve this at the lowest level possible without negative action on your 1st Shirt. Request to speak with him 1 on 1. Discuss your injury with him and how working the detail exacerbated your injury. Take with you any medical documentation that supports you. If this does resolve the issue to your satisfaction then you can do the same thing by requesting to speak with the Commander. If you still feel no satisfaction you can the file a complaint with the IG. You can also request to confer with a JAG officer to see what your alternatives are.

But I would like to remind you of one more thing. Regardless of who is telling to do something you feel is in violation of your medical Profile, they do not have the authority to supersede the Doctor’s authority and the limits he/she placed on you. The last thing the Doc wants is for their work to go for naught...believe me I have been read the riot act on a number of occasions trying to please the bosses and adhere to a Profile... The costs of exceeding a Profile can be high in terms of monies and time lost. The higher costs are to you in terms of permanent injuries and physical limitations you may incur may result in your separation from the service and disability pay will never make up for that. Good luck...

Response by CPL David Stevens made Dec 20 at 2017 5:51 PM

2017-12-20T17:51:12-05:00

From what I remember, if you went to the ER because you have broken your profile, it should have gotten back to your command already. These kind of incidents are not taken lightly because no leader wants command of non deployable individuals. It has to be addressed. If you follow your chain of command and open door policy and be tactiful in what you do, then maybe this won't happen again at least in your unit.

Response by SGT Tj Casiano made Dec 20 at 2017 6:00 PM

2017-12-20T18:00:12-05:00

I was only on profile once, and that was while I was deployed to Afghanistan and the only reason I went on profile was because I had a sprained ankle. Other than that I wouldn't even tell my leadership that I was hurt. Once in awhile I would get a detail from my 1SG, but that only happened during field problems. Other than that, my unit was pretty good about honoring profiles.

Response by SPC Michelle Nelson - Thompson made Dec 20 at 2017 6:19 PM

2017-12-20T18:19:52-05:00

Short response, if someone orders you to do something that breaks you're profile, and it results in an aggravation in your injury, they can face UCMJ action. They can also go a step further and garnish wages in the amount that additional medical care that it costs. Now that being said, it doesn't happen offen. The Drills I worked with knew if I gave a profile, that soldier really needs it. They took my profiles as law. Each DS that came in got the talk about the TMC and the different medics and profiles. I was a pretty laid back medic. Trainees would ask for me because they knew I knew my job. Profile riders wouldn't. There was one incident with a DS, this man was the epitome of a self righteous dick. He was fairly new and had been warned multiple times by the other DS's. I put a trainee on profile for a femoral stress fracture. It was a very restrictive. The DS made him break the profile, made it well known he was doing it on purpose. The kid's femur snapped, permanently crippling him. They could not surgically fix it to were he was fit for duty. He was charged, reduced in rank and eventually kicked out. All related to the incident.
It also happened to my rear detachment "commander." The ER doctor was so pissed off at him he literally put on me profile, "sit and breath at own pace." This happened after several profiles had been broken which started with me pulling guard duty in the motorpool, (against profile) I was on meds that knocked me unconscious. It happened to be the night the unit was called to go to Bosnia. They couldn't wake me and ended up cutting the chain to get in. Top started chewing me, I was so out of it I just handed him my profile. He then went and chewed the WO out. That last profile was from when he made me buff the floor overnight, while pulling company duty overnight. We were the only Co pulling overnight duty. There was an EAC for dependants to call. I slipped and fell. I was on the floor until the next morning. I was transferred to the hospital by ambulance. The WO was discharged. That was part of the proceeding, along with the cocaine and downers he was using. I was medevaced to WRAMC. Buds at my unit let me know he was kicked out and given a hefty medical bill to pay back. Again, it only happens in extreme circumstances. This was also the mid 1990's. At the very least UCMJ and court martial is a possibility. Being someone who frequently tried to speed my healing up, creating my own setbacks. I know how that feels. You went to the 1st Sgt and he ignored it. Use your Chain of Command. Go to the Commander. Also be sure it is notated in your medical records, and be sure you have a copy. Then inform the Co. Commander it's been documented. The next soldier may not be as lucky. Also, the rank of who gave you the profile has nothing to do with it. Profiles given by medics are the same as those given by doctors.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2017 6:22 PM

2017-12-20T18:22:00-05:00

Clearly from what I read and taking it with a grain of salt. Missing information is as such. Did 1SG directly tell you to carry heavy objects at once causing you to break your profile? Or did you not think about watching yourself and adhere to your own profile and carry what you felt you could at a time? Or did you fail to try and obtain a piece of equipment that would allow yourself and possibly others the ability to move such equipment? Soldiers are always quick on the draw to get someone else in trouble for lack on common sense and actually thinking of a way to accomplish the task. We all agree that the military has 2 types of Soldiers SMART and STRONG.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2017 8:05 PM

2017-12-20T20:05:02-05:00

Stop being a fucking pussy if your profile limits you to do nothing get out. Its beneficial to you and the army

Response by SFC Michael Robison made Dec 20 at 2017 8:32 PM

2017-12-20T20:32:29-05:00

I’m sorry, but in my time in the Army I saw a lot of shitty NCO’s and micro managing 1st SGT’s. Especially those running support companies. As for making a situation worse for you, because people above you get in trouble... then you need to use the “Open Door Policy” and file a formal complaint. If your complaint holds water or there are ANY reprisals, then a Commander Inquiry needs to be initiated. Maybe EVERY single E-8/E-9 on here was an outstanding leader. However, sadly the current Army is not that way!

1.What I want to know is what was the detail?
2.What did you do that violated your profile?
3.Did you start the detail as a road guard, and were removed from your post?
4.what was your profile for?
5.How was the ER visit a direct result of the detail.

These are things that should be part of the post in order for anyone to give you solid advice.

I am retired, and my wife is active duty. Her and I had a baby, and we had to elevate an issue with her Chain of Command all the way to Brigade, Division, and HRC to get it fixed. All because an E-7 made some mistakes in her reenlistment and pregnancy memos.

Response by SFC Craig Starr made Dec 20 at 2017 8:36 PM

2017-12-20T20:36:26-05:00

The problem is your profile, its vague and interpretive. The person you need to see is your medical provider. A temp profile is only valid for short amounts of time to reduce normal your expect soldiers duties. A profile is only valid if signed by both your division surgeon and command.

If I was your 1SG, I would have done the same thing.

You will be ok, get your ailment re-assessed and treatment plan outlined and profile clearified.

Been to the emergency many times over my career. You'll be OK buttercup.

Response by Cpl Daniel Lee made Dec 20 at 2017 11:17 PM

2017-12-20T23:17:41-05:00

It amazes me to see how many of you are quick to get so incensed about a soldier asking for advice on how to go about his situation calling him a shitbag and what not... It's quite disgusting and very unbecoming of those of you who are NCOs and SNCOs to do so!!! Like what some have mentioned previously, if the doc wrote the profile, chances are it's for a good damn reason!!!! It shouldn't matter how vague it is or how elaborately written it is, the fact is that the profile had been written for a fucking reason and it your job as NCOs and SNCOs to ensure that the soldier doesn't injure him/herself to the point where nothing else can be done to recover!!! Again, it's a god damn shame to see some of you NCOs and SNCOs quickly label the soldier as a shitbag when he is legitimately asking for help... Do your damn jobs and look out for the soldiers rather than flame them!!!

Response by Cadet 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2017 2:31 AM

2017-12-21T02:31:40-05:00

I know when I had a profile I had my doctor right the exact number on how much I can lift. My advice is to make your profile as detailed as possible that way there is no confusion. I’m sorry this happened to you, but I would suggest maybe talking to someone at the unit instead of putting it online. You said you didn’t want to get him in trouble, but you may if certain people were to see this.

Response by 1LT Michael Jay made Dec 21 at 2017 6:02 AM

2017-12-21T06:02:20-05:00

If this situation is accurate fromantic just your side. Then someone should look into it. However, with that being said. If your profile states that you can't do anything...then why are you still in the Military! ? I would assume that you are nondeployable. You are just take up a slot and collecting a check, and putting more stress on other families and service members.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2017 9:45 AM

2017-12-21T09:45:57-05:00

Talk to IG, they can point you in the right direction... and my old 1sg used to do the same thing. He just didn't care, probably because he was retiring.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2017 11:26 AM

2017-12-21T11:26:03-05:00

I'm medically retired now and it happened to me on more than one occasion even having me take a PT test while on a severe profile

Response by SPC Bobby Morton made Dec 21 at 2017 12:12 PM

2017-12-21T12:12:19-05:00

Whatever you do, keep a copy of (or the original if available) your profiles, & obtain a copy of your ENTIRE MEDICAL RECORD before you finish your enlistment! This will reduce the wait time should you need to file a disability claim after your enlistment.

Response by SPC Shane Jacobson made Dec 21 at 2017 12:16 PM

2017-12-21T12:16:16-05:00

As a former medic we always put in clear and defined terms exactly what is and is not allowed. As in can not lift over x amount of weight, but without seeing the actual profile in question I can not give any help or advice on this.

Response by SPC Dennis Gurevitz made Dec 21 at 2017 12:34 PM

2017-12-21T12:34:52-05:00

Can talk to your Army Doctor or Chaplain, the Doctor is best. Dealing with a senior NCO as a top Sgt can be very intimidating. And a soldiers sense of good order and discipline also makes us to respond hurtfully to ourselves. Years ago while in Vietnam I had a First Sgt who was a bigot and antisemitic give me a hard time. I don’t normally put up with that stuff and nip it in the bud, but I was a PFC, he was a E-8. When I had all I could take from that pos, I respectfully and bluntly told him his terms he uses against me are going to stop or I am reporting him to the Chaplin. He did not say a word just reassigned me to a Construction platoon and my dealings with him shut down. Always be respectful but right to the point so they know you mean business and do not mis-read your intentions.

Response by SPC Dennis Gurevitz made Dec 21 at 2017 12:39 PM

2017-12-21T12:39:09-05:00

I never typed in specialist yet it shows up here. Lol I am a old coot been out of the Army for 50 years. Just a Joe Blow civilian,

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2017 12:46 PM

2017-12-21T12:46:34-05:00

Y'all act like you never seen a petty 1sg before that's gunning for a specific soldier, also yes sometimes NCOs in a unit are weak. Soldiers as re getting auto promoted still to e5 and e6 in certain Mom's. In this case you should have went to the commander and explained your situation and if that didn't work go to IG these people don't care about your life after the Army and will use you up till you can't give anymore.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2017 1:04 PM

2017-12-21T13:04:10-05:00

Talk to medical. Medical can handle and clarify any questions or duties you may or may not be limited to. Let them handle it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2017 1:15 PM

2017-12-21T13:15:57-05:00

Kind of the same deal as your situation. Soldier had a profile and knew their limitations and was put on a detail kind of in the same manner as yours. Leadership was aware of said profile and pushed it anyway. Troop got hurt, both were found liable. Leadership because they knew and pushed them anyway, and the troop because they knew their limitations and performed detail anyway resulting in their injury. Was a jacked up situation. Nothing really came of it besides some good ass chewing and a new annual brief for me and the rest of BTRY.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2017 1:27 PM

2017-12-21T13:27:52-05:00

Profiles have to be accepted from your chain of command. If the 1SG and CO feel it isn't bad enough to threaten your life they have the right to ignore it.

Response by PFC Randy Harrington made Dec 21 at 2017 2:07 PM

2017-12-21T14:07:09-05:00

I’d say you are full of shit . Sorry but according to the UCMJ you have a legal obligation to ignore them report an illegal order . And any order that contraband’s a medical order unless given by a competent and authorized medical person is illegal .
He was not in violation of the order however if the restriction wasn’t stated as a limit . If I say no hard work that can be construed in many ways . What the docs should have did was put you on a medical hold . Basically stating you could do admin or things such as firewatch but nothing which requires more physical exertion than basic siting standing and walking and a limit to the amount of those activities such as duration of each at any specific time and accumulate time within a 12 hr period

Response by SSG Ken Fritsch made Dec 21 at 2017 3:00 PM

2017-12-21T15:00:09-05:00

Wow! Here's a suggestion for you. Listen carefully. If you feel that you have been made to perform a duty that you should not have, inform your chain of command that you're going to IG and having it addressed there.

The fact that you're using this platform to seek out some sort of social mediation is ridiculous. Go air your grievances the appropriate way.

That's the first thing.

Secondly, after your enlistment is up, get out of the Military, period!

This is not Obamas Military anymore. This isn't a military that has to second guess itself and force hesitation down the throats of its troops.

Your comment is vague, undiscriptive and completely one sided. Your laughible attempt to save face at the end of this thread stating you don't want to get your 1SG relieved or kicked out is asinine.

If you knew you weren't supposed to do something, man the fuck up and tell them you can not perform that task. Clearly you had documentation to show in the event of any sort of reprisal taken against you for failing to obey an order.

Get out of the military!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2017 3:57 PM

2017-12-21T15:57:34-05:00

Oh hell no nail his ass to the wall. I good leader doenst force you to break profile

Response by TSgt David Costa made Dec 21 at 2017 4:02 PM

2017-12-21T16:02:30-05:00

Fist you don’t ignore a lawful command. You follow through than request to speak with th CO at that point you register your complaint. A lot depends on your profile was there injury to your back, arms leg,etc. You just can’t ignore a command what do you think would happen to your team mates in combat if you ignored a command.

Response by 1SG Michael Foote made Dec 21 at 2017 4:28 PM

2017-12-21T16:28:13-05:00

What do you consider heavy lifting. Government and military says 35 pounds is heavy lifting (since at that weight itbecomes a 2 man lift) your dr. Never specified a heavy lifting.

Response by PO3 Emmanuel Rodriguez made Dec 21 at 2017 5:36 PM

2017-12-21T17:36:47-05:00

So if your limited profile states “no physical activity or exercise” you and he needed to abide by it. Only the Medical Officer can say otherwise. My take is that 1SGT believes you’re malingering. If he caught you doing the exercises effectively then You’re in trouble.

Response by SGT Jake Miller made Dec 21 at 2017 6:07 PM

2017-12-21T18:07:50-05:00

As someone who was on a profile for a while with a back injury. There's nothing the 1st Sargent could do as long as you have a copy of the profile on you at all times. By you doing the detail you are technically disobeying a direct order from someone who out ranks the 1st Sargent

Response by SGT Randall Smith made Dec 21 at 2017 7:17 PM

2017-12-21T19:17:55-05:00

Something doesn't ring right here. A 1st Sgt usually tells a platoon Sgt or squad leader what he wants done and expects it done. This sounds like a whiner.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2017 7:22 PM

2017-12-21T19:22:39-05:00

Might want to bring this to legal assistance, or perhaps the IG.

Response by SFC Charles Kauffman made Dec 21 at 2017 9:24 PM

2017-12-21T21:24:57-05:00

A few people have been butt hurt by my response to this, so allow me to retort.
The SM in question said that his profile said not to do any " physical work or exercise like heavy lifting....".

AR 40-501 clearly states the SPECIFIC limitations are to be stated, such as SPECIFIC weight limits, activities, etc.

He also stated that the areas in his profile that "WE are concerned about are..". That suguests to me that he's listening to a shithouse lawyer.

He also states that he told his 1SG to talk to his NCO, which in MY days as a soldier would have been tantamount to a death sentence. His 1SG would more than likely been fully aware of any profile.

Just because he ended up in the ER, doesn't mean he NEEDED TO BE in the ER.

These are all classic signs of malingering and a search for sympathy to the trained eye.

This troop has left out too many details. If he feels that he is truly in the right, he is free to consult the IG.

Response by SGT Eric Forrest made Dec 21 at 2017 9:45 PM

2017-12-21T21:45:41-05:00

I'm from the infantry train of thought... toughen up, buttercup. But I've never seen CoC supervise a detail and for that matter require someone to break profile.

Response by MSgt Jim Lorenzo made Dec 21 at 2017 10:35 PM

2017-12-21T22:35:53-05:00

All profiles need to be specific. Reps, lbs, time, etc...Use this as a learning tool for yourself and your peers. Make sure in the future before leaving the clinic with your profile, your PCM has writtten specific orders pertaining to your do’s and cant’s.

Response by CW2 Thomas Herrlich made Dec 21 at 2017 11:17 PM

2017-12-21T23:17:50-05:00

Bullying

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2017 11:49 PM

2017-12-21T23:49:15-05:00

I do believe your 1SG has some blame for using his rank to intimidate you. But as a soldier you have to learn to stand firm on what's right. You can NEVER be punished for not breaking your profile.

Response by SGT Adrian Leyva made Dec 22 at 2017 12:44 AM

2017-12-22T00:44:42-05:00

Must be a POG

Response by SGT Chris Swann made Dec 22 at 2017 9:07 AM

2017-12-22T09:07:09-05:00

First off, your 1stSgt is not going to get kicked out. He more than likely won’t even get in trouble. I am sure however if you pursue this, it will be you who regrets it. What’s done is done so I would advise you leave this alone. You belong to the Army now. You are no longer a civilian. Seriously, leave this alone

Response by PFC Aarion Ojeda made Dec 22 at 2017 9:24 AM

2017-12-22T09:24:53-05:00

Yeah bring it up to your Battalion Command team. If they don’t care, go brigade. So on and so forth. The army doesn’t need NCOs with no concern for their soldiers.

Response by SFC Joseph Lumpkins made Dec 22 at 2017 10:25 AM

2017-12-22T10:25:44-05:00

As a MI senior NCO, I have always enjoyed the challenges from young specialists like you. you complain about the 1SG making you break your profile and from what I have read your profile was poorly written. Instead of blasting your 1SG on this page why didn’t you get with your platoon SGT and come up with a solution based on your particular situation? BTW do you think that your 1SG wouldn’t see your discussion on RP and rember that the next time that you came down on the DA Form 6 for a particular duty.

Response by SSG John Mitchell made Dec 22 at 2017 12:09 PM

2017-12-22T12:09:49-05:00

Interesting. I did 8 years with a P3 but I spent most of that time in a very unique position. I worked directly for 1SG & CO. I ran the Offices so we didn't take away Healthy NCOs, yes it was supposed to an NCO position. I was a SPC, from the Company. Most of my 1SGs used me as the NCOIC or the "power" to assign the Mission, ie:detail, because part of my Job was to file our daily reports with Battalion. Which meant I knew who, what & where about everything. Profiles, Duty, Equipment. If it had any effect on the Company, I knew it. I was the Fixxer so the Command could do their Job. The ONLY time Top would stay & oversee any Detail was if The CSM specifically demanded it but that usually only happened with a new CSM. Not to say Top wouldn't check the work afterwards but it usually fell to me because I knew what Top expected & I earned their trust. If you're 1SG is micro-managing to that extent, something is broken somewhere. Even when my Company was the "Redheaded Step-Child" for the Battalion, which we were for 3 1SG, CO combos, Top still didn't stick around & oversee a detail. Even if it was a "Hey you". I'm loath to say use IG because that causes nothing but headache, for you, but you are ultimately responsible for your health. Yes your CoC should be aware of your limitations because part of their JOB is taking care of Soldiers, BUT in the long run you should be aware of your responsibility to the Mission. If I can recall the Regs. for the application of Commands discretion when it comes to arbitrary disregard of a Profile to para-phrase. "Mission Critical" I believe is how it's stated.

Response by SrA Fred Packard made Dec 22 at 2017 12:33 PM

2017-12-22T12:33:05-05:00

Make sure it is documented..... It could mean a VA disability when you ets....

Response by MSG Moises Maldonado made Dec 22 at 2017 12:47 PM

2017-12-22T12:47:25-05:00

You don't Say How Much Heavy Lifting is Actually Heavy... Exercise? You Mean, Like PUSH UP's and the Sorts..? What? Are you just IDLE all the Time?.. or Just After Retreat(Last Formation) you Go to CLUBS, Swimming, PARK... Ride a Bike, The GYM , Walk to the PX, Change a Flat Tire.. RUN /Walk fast When Your Sweetheart tries to Beat you Up... etc... All that requires Physical Activity.. Sounds to me You are Just MALINGERING... That uses Profiles to Avoid Duty.... Question: What are you Doing in The Armed Forces.....???.. The 1SG knows Better, Obviously He Saw right through it.. and saw proper..to use you...( in the Detail..) QuitCha'Bellyaching!.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2017 2:42 PM

2017-12-22T14:42:01-05:00

Never heard of a 1sg supervising a detail. If he’s in trouble, it should be crappy micromanaging leadership. The Platoon Sgt. should know what you can & cannot do.

Response by SSG Brian Carpeneter made Dec 22 at 2017 3:22 PM

2017-12-22T15:22:02-05:00

SSG ret.

Unless this 1SG is a total sack job himself I just don't see this happening none of my tops would even chance ruining there career over someone who has a prize that extreme. If working made you go to the ER why did your Squad Leader or Platoon Sgt even agree to send you. Most likely your a POS that rides profiles and they are used to you shamming. If not well best advice I can give you is talk to your chaplain because commanders generally support their 1SG

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2017 3:33 PM

2017-12-22T15:33:21-05:00

Much apologies I do believe I was hacked. As a NCO I would recommend utilizing your chain of command ie team leader section leader etc. If your leadership is not present or have failed you then your co should have a open door policy I would try to let your chain of command take care of the issue after all it is there for a reason.

Response by PO2 Frank Ushler made Dec 22 at 2017 4:27 PM

2017-12-22T16:27:18-05:00

You should have been confined to barracks or sickbay If your with the company than you have a problem.

Response by PO2 Frank Ushler made Dec 22 at 2017 4:32 PM

2017-12-22T16:32:25-05:00

Man things have really changed since I was in boot camp.a what happened to suck it up .what the he'll is a profile.

Response by CSM Tony Blair made Dec 22 at 2017 5:26 PM

2017-12-22T17:26:24-05:00

Two things here,
What were you on profile for, what was your issue, be honest if you can without being to personal.
Two it’s hard to believe he would do that, knowing the repercussion of his actions, now not to say it has not happened, just hard to think a seasoned NCO would do such a thing, the inspector general is the best way to go on this I think, if the facts are as you stated.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2017 6:17 PM

2017-12-22T18:17:45-05:00

Make a point go through the motions then pull out and drop charges after you talk to csgm and tell him you don't want to see him hurt too that you just wanted command to know this was happening.... Or just go to command sergeant major and tell him what happened they're super cool most of the time and it's easy to say something major I don't want him to get in trouble I just want him to understand that I was hurt off of this... But another point you should just do it because if you got hurt off of that you're not going to get paid unless you say something

Response by SSgt Tony Willen made Dec 22 at 2017 6:45 PM

2017-12-22T18:45:46-05:00

Turn him in. If you dont he will do it again and you or someone will get hurt.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2017 8:12 PM

2017-12-22T20:12:18-05:00

My husband retired as a 1SG so this is from him. First and fore most, any order given by an Commissioned or Noncommissioned Officer that violates your profile is and will be considered as an Unlawful Order. No one in your chain of command / chain of concern can order you to violate your profile regardless how they "feel about it". Your 1SG needs to have additional training apparently. You need to first use your Open Door Policy and talk to your Company Commander about this. If you do not want others including the 1SG know about the reason of why you want use the Open Door Policy, you have a right to decline any comment pertaining to your request to use the Open Door Policy. Depending upon your commanders response, if you are not satisfied with that discussion, then you can utilize the Open Door Policy all the way up your chain of command. You do not feel comfortable using the Open Door Policy; bring this attention to your BN Aid Station PA or use the IG. There are various avenues to approach this and educate your 1SG about profiles.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2017 8:56 PM

2017-12-22T20:56:58-05:00

SPC Private RallyPoint Member The word "I" is always capitalized. Hold the SHIFT key while pressing the key for the letter "I" and it will eliminate this error in your writing.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2017 9:04 PM

2017-12-22T21:04:43-05:00

SPC Private RallyPoint Member Can the 1SG be held "liable"? NO. Can the 1SG be held "responsible" and be disciplined? YES. You have the right to refuse an unlawful order right to the 1SG's face for as long as he wants to stand there yelling at you. A profile is essentially a doctor's professional recommendation to your commander to limit your physical activity to prevent further injury. Your commander has the authority to disregard that doctor's professional opinion (aka your profile) but the 1SG alone does not. If the 1SG indeed violated your profile, then you need to take advantage of the open door policy to go talk to your 1SG/CSM/CDR/CH/PL/(pick one) to resolve the issue. If needed, you might need a doctor to better clarify your physical restrictions and duty limitations on your profile so there is no doubt or room for interpretation.

Response by SGT Kaye Fiorello made Dec 22 at 2017 9:25 PM

2017-12-22T21:25:16-05:00

if you have a profile that says "do not do any physical work such as heavy lifting or exercise".
you need to get out.

Response by CPL Kevin Corbin made Dec 22 at 2017 9:40 PM

2017-12-22T21:40:36-05:00

Old war horse that is short on time left!

Response by SSG Ken Potts made Dec 22 at 2017 9:41 PM

2017-12-22T21:41:42-05:00

As a former medic, I will tell you this is bullshit. No profile is ever written like that. They always state your exact limitations.

Response by CSM Larry Cross (Retired) made Dec 22 at 2017 9:45 PM

2017-12-22T21:45:44-05:00

Contact the MEDCOM Ombudsman on your Installation or if you do not have one call 24/7 Wounded Soldier and Family Hotline [login to see] We’re Here For You!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2017 9:45 PM

2017-12-22T21:45:50-05:00

Long time active duty medical officer here. Still in the Army. Couple of thoughts. Some profiles are poorly and sloppily written by medical officers. I cringe when I see them and usually try to correct them. In the M.O. defense, (and believe it or not) medical officers get NO formal training about how to write a profile. There is an "art" to writing profiles that a M.O. learns as institutional knowledge after several years on the job. It's not taught in school. On the other hand, I've seen leaders treat even well written profiles like puzzles to be cracked IOT punish Soldier's who are "leadership challenges". I empathize with leaders when dealing with these Soldiers. But when in doubt, send the Soldier back to the medical officer and ask for a better written profile.

Also it is totally false and Army lore that commander's have had some sort of discretion in ignoring profiling recommendations. There is no regulation that says commander's or their representatives can ignore profiles, and to my knowledge that has never been true. AR 40-501 Standards of Medical Fitness. "In all cases, the role of the commander is to ensure Soldiers do not violate their profiles and are assigned duties that they can perform without undue risk to health and safety." Commanders or their reps who selectively ignore profiling restrictions are ignoring a medical order and do so at their peril.

Response by SGT Jeff Hurlburt made Dec 22 at 2017 10:44 PM

2017-12-22T22:44:44-05:00

Aware that this is old, but after reading several pages of this discussion I want to kick in a few observations and my 2 cents....

Retired Medic, was the Senior Medical NCO for my last BN, and spent hours reading and explaining profiles to my command. A profile is a recommendation from a doctor, said profile is then reviewed by CDR at which point the CDR either signs the profile (making it a lawful order) or disregards it (making it moot).

There are too many variables to give a solid answer as to how the 1SG will be dealt with, but I can say this... If the SM was sent to the ER, it requires a CCIR (commander's critical incident report). This will ensure that senior leaders know the circumstances and all responsible parties are held accountable as well.

The other thing to be considered is that there is absolutely ZERO reason for a Junior soldier to know the details of his 1SG being punished. In all likelihood, the issue has been dealt with, and the young troop doesn't have a clue because it is none of his damned business!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2017 12:06 AM

2017-12-23T00:06:19-05:00

Lol all the ncos here will always find it hard to believe. That a fellow nco is also trash.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2017 12:08 AM

2017-12-23T00:08:22-05:00

Soooo can a CO supersede a profile given to a Soldier? Or is it set in stone that a signed profile is actually an order from the doctor? We have all kinds of regulations, so if someone could point it in black and white that would be great. I’ve always heard this and everyone says different things. I’d like to use this info for my tool box if I ever come across this situation with any of Soldiers.

Response by Sgt Brian Fountaine made Dec 23 at 2017 6:16 AM

2017-12-23T06:16:16-05:00

Suck it up you, Nancy! (Marines rule, n u drool.)

Response by SGT Leroy Brown made Dec 23 at 2017 6:34 AM

2017-12-23T06:34:37-05:00

Breaking a profile was so normal to me. At times, soldiers would break profiles to finish whatever task was passed down to them, just to get it done fast! Your not the first and certainly not the last. I’ll share a brief story with you. It has nothing to do with this but rather the mindset of some or most NCO’S. We were in the field and two team leaders and one private we’re having their first born children. It was gunnery and 1SG told all three of these soldiers, “This is really important that we complete this and it can’t be done if you guys are gone.” They left the t.o.c. Probably pissed off but wouldn’t say anything. However, After they left, I overheard the 1SG say to another NCO, “Shit, I’ve got 3 kids & missed each one of thier births, so why should these guys get to see their kids.” My point is the mindset of soldiers that have had things done to them trickles down because it’s what they know or what’s been done to them. All in all, unless you can play the game well, get promoted, go SF, or just suck it up. In my opinion, keep your mouth shut, do your time & do not re-enlist. I’m proud to have served but, I had some shitty leadership in the Army. Which left a bad taste in my mouth. Good luck!

Response by PFC Christian Contreras made Dec 23 at 2017 9:06 AM

2017-12-23T09:06:35-05:00

Do as ordered first, complain afterwards.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2017 1:04 PM

2017-12-23T13:04:51-05:00

For those of you who think a 1SG will not make a Soldier break their profile, you must have been in only hospitals. It happened to me in the good old 82nd. My 1SG made me conduct an airborne operation because the PA who wrote my profile wrote " no jumping" instead of "no airborne ops". That 1SG was a medic in a medical company. I jumped and went back and got the profile amended. This was after I suffered a bruised bone in my knee on a previous jump. I witnessed this happen to other Soldiers a lot. He only cared about the company getting to 100% airborne proficiency. Before I get why didn't you go to the Commander, that Command team will be considered toxic leaders today.

Response by CPL Gary Rainville made Dec 23 at 2017 2:02 PM

2017-12-23T14:02:01-05:00

He needs to be held responsible.

Response by MSG Loren Tomblin made Dec 23 at 2017 3:17 PM

2017-12-23T15:17:05-05:00

The Chaplain has a punch for your TS Card. Get enough TS punches and he will issue you a box of crayons, a coloring book, and a nice room at the Chapel or Mosque, or whatever religion you prefer. Otherwise apply for a whole man concept nd get a medical DD214. I know soldiers that were in bad shape but stayed the course.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2017 3:24 PM

2017-12-23T15:24:28-05:00

Well first of all your First line supervisor failed you. If it was a detail, your first line was to address it properly to your platoon sergeant. So that you will be able to have a replacement. And for as the break of your profile, you should have stayed within the restrictictions. If issues may had occur, the first person to inform is your first line supervisor. So overall your NCO failed you, and as a soldier breaking a profile is a result of an Article 15 violation. Disobeying a direct order of a Doctor/commissioned officer.

Response by SPC Thomas Moosey made Dec 23 at 2017 3:33 PM

2017-12-23T15:33:35-05:00

I hope your 1SG isn't on this forum, just saying

Response by SSG Brian Lovins made Jan 14 at 2018 4:11 PM

2018-01-14T16:11:50-05:00

I don't know why RP send these old posts to my email but what the heck, I will throw in my 2 cents.
If you were my soldier, and I have had to fight this fight before, I would go to the 1SG myself and talk to him, I have never met a 1SG that wasn't willing to discuss an issue with another NCO. If I thought you were in the right or his reasoning was BS we would get the commander involved. If I thought you were full of crap I would still do the same but I may try to reason with you before we escalate it, Either way I would definitely walk you through the procedures and point you to the Regs that cover profiles and medical standards. It was my job as an NCO to give guidance and train Soldiers regardless of my opinion of the Soldier.

What did your FLL and PSG say when you brought it to their attention?

Response by SGT Felicia King made Jan 15 at 2018 8:38 AM

2018-01-15T08:38:17-05:00

I’d have to see the ER visit medical files to determine. It always depends on the case. Some soldiers make up lies just to go to the ER and get phony profiles because they’re lazy. Without knowing you I have no idea if you’re like those I described.

Response by Sgt Tee Organ made Jan 17 at 2018 9:20 AM

2018-01-17T09:20:20-05:00

Man Im getting old I guess, what is this profile business and how does it translate to you failing to follow the First Sergeant's orders?

Response by CPT Stephanie Lincoln made Jan 17 at 2018 9:56 AM

2018-01-17T09:56:06-05:00

I worked in the Military Medical Corps for 7 years. Regulation states that a Commander DOES HAVE THE ABILITY TO BREAK A PROFILE. With that said, they should have documented in writing the reason for such and also should have made an effort to consult a military medical professional first before doing so (if the situation and time allowed). But if it were an emergency situation (lets say a mortar attack and you are on a "no run profile" but you need to run to get to safety, then an order like this is a no brainer. But in a garrison environment, best practice is to send the Soldier to sick call to get a reevaluation of the profile limitations (or clarification of such). There really is no penalty other than the fact that your military medical provider could make a formal notification to your commander concerning the breech of profile and subsequent injury. And your 1SGT may or may not hear about it from the Commander. But as far as bottom line regulation is concerned, yes your higher chain of command can make you break profile and it is well within regulation. Is it the smart thing to do? ...No of course not. They will have filed an LOD concerning your re-injury, so just make sure to get copies of all of your LODs for in the future when you leave the service, you will need to be considered for a medical disability rating.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2018 6:43 PM

2018-01-19T18:43:50-05:00

This is a no-whining zone. If you want to whine, join the Air Force or the Antifa. Sorry, dude.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Jan 19 at 2018 7:38 PM

2018-01-19T19:38:19-05:00

Good luck with that one, should he be turned into his Chain of Command? Most likely.

Response by 1stSgt Mack Housman made Jan 21 at 2018 7:57 PM

2018-01-21T19:57:03-05:00

Doesn't sound normal to me. I always asked for volunteers. I always had more volunteers than I needed. Sure there's more to the story!?

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made Jan 22 at 2018 2:28 PM

2018-01-22T14:28:10-05:00

I have a question? Wow your profile may state that you are not to do any heavy lifting Or physical exercise While on the job. Can you say with a straight face, That on the weekends you are not lifting a 24 pack of beer? Or running around like a Spring chicken with your friends bar hopping or partying Like it's 1999 ? Your situation reminds me of something King David saying in the book of Psalms. The eyes of the Lord are everywhere beholding the good and the evil. Maybe your 1st sergeant seen you after hours conducting yourself as if nothing was wrong with you. Baby scene you carrying heavy bags of groceries or beer or alcohol out of the liquor store? Or maybe 1of your fellow soldiers ratted you out. If I were you you should tread very carefully On this issue. Because if you push it and they have A NJP hearing, And that 1st sergeant bring someone in at witness you behaving as if nothing was wrong and they can prove it ! your career is toast You will be brand it As a sick lame and lazy. I hope you get well and just move on.

Response by SGT Robert Mcelvany made Feb 2 at 2018 10:18 AM

2018-02-02T10:18:07-05:00

Sounds to me like you pansy ass is trying get out of working suck it up buttercup.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2018 2:51 PM

2018-02-02T14:51:33-05:00

Having served in the United States Army from 1984 to 1992. As a Old School Light Infantry Grunt. Also being a firm believer in going the Extra Mile.
During my tenure in my beloved Army, I have seen Profiles and I have seen Profiles!
I am not saying this is the case, what so ever, but this is my experience speaking. Top is what we use to call our First Sergeant. Top was responsible for the whole Company's health and welfare.
Our Top was a seasoned combat veteran who taught us to be men and leaders.
As to the Profiles their were Soldiers who had Profiles and were singled out for extra duty, because they were not full duty! Also being in the Army required you to work, and train in your MOS daily!
Full Duty, for a Grunt may be waking up at 0500 Hrs. First call at 0530 in PT gear and then on to PT.
Start off with Calistitics then after the warm up run 10 Miles.
Come back to the unit, clean up shower and chow.
Then after that Training. Operations etc..
Profiles obviously, are left in the rear with the gear. Or sent on shit details!
Just stating a fact.
I have never seen a 1st. Sergeant, watch a detail in all of my 10 years of Service throughout the World. That's what Top had his Junior NCO's for. Or Delegated his authority to the senior or most squared away soldier going to said detail.
But, I guess things have changed?
If you are on the Black Ball list I can see you being treated differently! Maybe even pushed beyond your physical limitations. But there is a limit!
As far as getting you hurt, I would speak to my Chain of Command and work my way up. But everything has a price in life.
If you are a squared away soldier you are good to go! If you are not and have ridden profiles before be cautious of the path you take!
I say this because I have seen certain Profiles get their Profiles just to get out of going to the Field because it is Winter Cold, Wet, and Miserable, out there.
But to me that is the Life of a Grunt! No one forced me to sign, I signed the dotted line!
I was taught by my NCO's to be the head, not the tail! To lead by example! The more I train in Peace time the less I bleed in War.
Going the Extra Mile was just doing what is normal for us! Carrying my battle buddies gear because he was wounded is just the way we did things.
Wanting to be Infantry Unit in the World is what we all wanted, so what if I had shin splits, that why we carried 100 mile tape!
I carried pliers to rip out my chronic in grown to nails, sheets of mole skin, oxygen peroxide and dressing for the clean up.
Top knew we were hurting after 25 mile hump through the mountains in full combat gear to reach our objective. Then we had to go do our mission.
I had the Honor of being trained by the best NCO'S and Officers in the World!
Duty and Honor!

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2018 10:03 AM

2018-02-04T10:03:54-05:00

First of all medical profiles are written by doctors doctors in the army and all of the branches of service our officers. So basically your first sergeant for you by giving you a direct order to disobey a lawful order of an officer. If I am not mistaken that constitutes charges such as. Come a court-martial offense so basically your first sergeant disobeyed a direct order of an officer you need to follow instructions from your first line supervisor as to how to proceed with that also you need to notify your medical doctor not a captain a major whatever his rank is in inform him of the situation otherwise next time you go to see him he could bring you up on charges.

Response by SPC Pete Robinson made Feb 6 at 2018 2:49 PM

2018-02-06T14:49:07-05:00

This may have something to do with not having your written profile on your person, whether your sergeant, at any level, actually knew of the profile, and/or if you were a known slacker or not!

Response by SP5 Geoffrey Vannerson made Feb 8 at 2018 1:47 PM

2018-02-08T13:47:57-05:00

If you were to do it again I have just 4 words for you: Medical Discharge and Disability Pension! At times !st Sergeants get a little too full of themselves. As soon as your were done you should have reported to your company commander and then to the Dr who wrote the profile. Think back to basic training when you had 2 drill sergeants screaming in each ear. That's what would have happened to good o'l TOP for damaging Government property! You are a "piece of equipment" and a damaged piece of equipment is useless in battle. Not only did he risk your health and well being but he risked that of the others around you. Repremand comes to mind for TOP! Good luck.

Response by MGySgt Billy Dial made Feb 9 at 2018 10:02 AM

2018-02-09T10:02:35-05:00

First and foremost, it is the responsibility of senior leadership to know the status of their personnel. If you truly were injured, you should have had a light duty document from medical personnel outlining your physical limitations. While your medical team didn't annotate every possible scenario that your condition prohibited, as one on a light duty status, you should not have been assigned. As a former senior leader, I would have requested a replacement in your stead. Additionally, I would question the junior leadership as well- those that work very closely with you on a daily basis should have been even more aware of your injury and medical status.

Response by COL Robert Davies made Feb 17 at 2018 9:21 PM

2018-02-17T21:21:06-05:00

How long ago? You have the ER paperwork? Request an LOD! If there is any rehab, PT, or surgery document it. It will if nothing else help when you retire. It was a legal order but he made himself or command liable. I had a Bn commander relieved and SERB'ed for mine.

Response by MSG Louis Alexander made Feb 19 at 2018 12:26 PM

2018-02-19T12:26:08-05:00

And to think I drudged through the murky jungles with blood in my boots from a thigh wound and cuts across my body from endless blades of elephant grass to fight a war, and today we have profiles, how quaint! Suppose when your life depends upon a paper profile everything else is second.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Feb 25 at 2018 9:30 AM

2018-02-25T09:30:26-05:00

I'm An old Soldier so I got only one comment until you release more information. This stinks of B.S. need the whole story. I will continue when you went to the emergency room what did that MO tell you did he/she rewrite the profile? Was he/she concerned about the profile violation? Did you see a Military ER or did you run down town? Did you notify the 1SGT of your new injury causing a ER visit? Enough Said with out more information this is unanswerable.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Mar 4 at 2018 11:35 PM

2018-03-04T23:35:03-05:00

You should have a talk with your unit IG.

Response by SSG Kelly Knoten made Mar 6 at 2018 9:41 AM

2018-03-06T09:41:19-05:00

Retired SSG Knoten, I've seen this kind of Leadership throughout my 23 years. It happens, if you think it doesn't then you have blinders on or you just choose to ignore the facts or what you have seen. If you are a good Non-commissioned Officer, and have soldiers underneath you. Protect your soldiers from themselves, uninformed decisions and bad leadership. Be the NCO Creed and have the backbone.

Response by SP5 Dan D made Mar 7 at 2018 12:19 AM

2018-03-07T00:19:14-05:00

1SGT made an unlawful order. He needed to clarify the profile. You need to go back and have your profile be more specific in your limitations.

Response by SPC William Pearce made Mar 11 at 2018 6:37 PM

2018-03-11T18:37:08-04:00

Suck it up.

Response by SPC William Pearce made Mar 11 at 2018 6:38 PM

2018-03-11T18:38:35-04:00

Get over it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2018 2:38 AM

2018-05-07T02:38:39-04:00

A profile is a guide or a limitation that a medic (with in limits) or a licensed Medical Provider gives a Soldier to allow him or her to heal from an injury or illness. The Commander can over ride the profile but will have to answer, to the provider, questions if the SM is incapacitated longer. That being said you the person who received the profile can not do anything that violates it voluntarily. I personally have never seen a 1SG ever tell soldiers to go do a detail it is usually bledt up to the PSG and if the profile is to vague you the SM is responsible to get it clarified.

Response by SSG Omar Ruiz-Canales made Jan 30 at 2019 2:29 PM

2019-01-30T14:29:20-05:00

Open door policy??

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Jan 31 at 2019 8:54 AM

2019-01-31T08:54:16-05:00

Okay now that this is over a year old and from what I can see on this thread. Has the questions been answered? Have any steps been taken to fix it? Inquiring minds want to know. Was the 1sgt out of line? Was all this started because of a Other than Military DR. ? what is the out come.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2019 1:44 PM

2019-06-10T13:44:34-04:00

As a 1LT, I had the BN CO force me to go on an FTX. It didn't violate any profile since I didn't have one at the time. I had injured my knee on an EMR and the TMC told me it was too swollen to evaluate, put me in a hip to ankle brace, gave me some killer pain meds and an appointment for the following monday (this was thursday). LTC said he didn't give two shits that I was injured, I was going on FTX anyway and I could get my knee checked out when we got back. His exact words were "I don't care if you were shot, I'd expect you to keep doing your job until you bled out". So I spent 2 weeks sitting in a tent, high as a kite on pain meds. And then he had the nerve to complain about how I "wasn't focused" and did a poor job.

Response by SFC Phillip Allen made Jun 29 at 2019 11:41 AM

2019-06-29T11:41:43-04:00

A profile is a recommendation made by a medical professional, the 1SG is not a medical professional. Rather than doing something that would further exacerbate a condition, you should’ve called the PA/medical provider or gone to higher authority immediately. The 1SG cannot deny you the option to seek guidance when clarification is needed.

Response by SPC David Porter made Jun 29 at 2019 12:05 PM

2019-06-29T12:05:21-04:00

My son had a profile for shin splints, and his command made sure he didn't do any running or road marches. He leaves for Special Forces Selection pretty soon, and they made sure he was able to go. I was in back in 89-93, and with the exception of one, all of my Top Dog's were solid guys. It's my understanding that after the last drawdown, there were a lot of guys promoted just to fill slots. We've all seen them, and apparently you've gotten stuck with one of them. Hang in there brother. If you went to the ER did you tell the Dr that you have a profile? I'm surprised shit hasn't hit the fan already.

Response by SSG Mark Matteson made Jun 29 at 2019 12:47 PM

2019-06-29T12:47:10-04:00

1sg should be in hot water about now.

Response by COL William Oseles made Jun 29 at 2019 1:09 PM

2019-06-29T13:09:21-04:00

The first sergeant should be relieved for cause and lacknofvalthebability to understand the word "any"

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2019 2:48 PM

2019-06-29T14:48:40-04:00

Has it really come down to this? I served in the Marine Corps and the Army. I never met anyone on profile until I was in the Army. And sad to say a lot of Marines are permanently injured because they were scared to ask for help. Do you really want to ruin a mans career? It is the armed forces, not summer camp. I’d tell you just to drive on and maybe the military is not for you. We are taught to drive on and carry on the mission, and sometimes you won’t be in top physical condition, but it is what it is. Don’t be that guy, please. Let it go. And I cannot in good conscience not tell you what you could do, there is a formal complaint policy Army wide, figure out what that is and you’re a problem is solved.

Response by PO2 Sean Baker made Jun 29 at 2019 4:02 PM

2019-06-29T16:02:51-04:00

You'll have to wait and bitch about it to the VA when you get out.

Response by SSG Darrell Peters made Jun 29 at 2019 10:59 PM

2019-06-29T22:59:11-04:00

As a former 68W. All profiles are now generated online. A profile is a medical guideline for the chain of command to follow. Early in my career, I have seen soldiers forced to break their profile which led to Med Boards. I had one officer BG Robert Cutting MD Eisenhower Army Medical Center who wrote several profiles but only signed them as Dr. Robert Cutting MD. When his patients reported back incidents that occurred the $hit hit the fan. especially when one of his patients was med boarded.
Bottom line any question about a profile should be directed toward the medical provider who wrote it. One soldier who was ordered to break his profile requested to go on Emergency Sick Call. Dr. Cutting wrote the profile, it was a big shock to the Company commander, 1SGT to discover Doctor Cutting was Brigadier General Cunning MD the Hospital Commander. Dr. Cutting gave them an informative talk explaining that when a profile is ordered to be broken it could cost the Army a lot of money after a med board and the officer or NCO ordering it to be broken could be held liable under the UCMJ.

Response by 1SG Ron Schlatter made Jul 13 at 2019 12:59 AM

2019-07-13T00:59:19-04:00

Your explanation is to vague to give you advice on how to proceed. As a 1SG if I had a detail I would have a NCO supervise it.