Navy LT considered resigning commission to attend Dartmouth?

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 04:34:21 -0400

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2015/08/31/top-junior-officers-picked-new-grad-school-program/71314798/

I read this article today while launching birds to the USS Ronald Reagan, and the beginning sounded like satire from The Duffel Blog/Onion. How can someone get a $400,000 scholarship to the Naval Academy, become a Pilot, then consider resigning at the five year mark to pursue Grad School? After which, the Navy agrees to continue to pay them and send them to Dartmouth full time?

I work 90 hours a week to finish my Masters Degree as an Enlisted Sailor, and this article was completely infuriating. Does it require over a half million dollars in government sponsored education at two of the top universities in the world to become a successful pilot? I kicked this question up to some control grade pilots today and got some hilarious responses. What say you Rally Point?

Top junior officers picked for new grad school program

Hollis is now one of the first three officers accepted for a plum new program: Going to an elite graduate school on the Navy's dime while still getting their Navy pay.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2015 5:05 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 05:05:04 -0400

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member,

Agreed. Find some intelligent enlisted individuals and send them instead.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Sep 2 at 2015 6:26 AM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 06:26:56 -0400

Damn I guess Dartmouth is "All That" If the Navy is picking up the tab for this. Like all things Gov't and Military if you know the proper channels and can submit the correct paperwork anything is possible. The Navy actually does this quite frequently pays for advance school and training although we are more accustomed to them attending the War College if is a special and unique training or school and the military can be convinced of a requirement they will send you outside the normal systems.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Sep 2 at 2015 7:42 AM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 07:42:52 -0400

There's more to it than the cover story because DoD doesn't spend a dime where it doesn't have to. Selecting "certain officers" for the program and not making this an open program to all ranks smells of horse hockey to me. I'll bet if you dig, these Os are connected high up in the food chain somewhere as things like this just don't happen out of thin air.

Response by LTC Jason Strickland made Sep 2 at 2015 7:43 AM

LTC Jason Strickland — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 07:43:11 -0400

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member, I understand your frustration. The article does mention that these officers must agree to an additional 3-year commitment in order to attend graduate school. That's consistent with tuition assistance programs in other services. I received tuition assistance back in 2000 to attend the University of South Florida (** Go Bulls!) and had to give back three years after my schooling was complete. Like you, I went to school at night while still serving full time.
I believe the services need to ask for more that three years in return for officers (or enlisted) receiving an advanced degree. We must look at this from a cost/benefit perspective.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Sep 2 at 2015 7:44 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 07:44:30 -0400

This is complicated.

First, when he joined the Naval Academy, he takes on an obligation time frame just like an enlisted does. In this case it appears to be 5 years.

Second, we all have goals. One of his primary goals was to get a Masters Degree. An opportunity presented where he could get one at a "top tier" school. That put him into a position where his primary goal was in direct conflict with his Naval Career.

It did not however place him in conflict with his obligation time frame. He had already paid back the time he owed. So he's stuck in the choice of choosing between himself and the Navy. What do you do? The Navy will not always be there for you. He pursued his primary goal with the better long term payout. And I can't blame him for that.

Now, his CoC actually asked him what was going on. Good on them. They found out he didn't actually want to get out, but he had an opportunity which was too good to pass up, and there was a case of "who you know" which made things work.

Sec Mabus & Sec Carter have been talking about how we are losing too many people because of these conflicts for about a year. They're right. We have. I had to make a similar decision 13 years ago. I don't regret it, but I do wonder what might have been, and if I got a phone call today, I'd be wearing a uniform tomorrow, regardless the number of stripes on my sleeves.

So, what we really have here, is the Navy holding onto an "investment" they already made. As you said, they already spent half a million dollars on him. He's going to walk out the door. And there's nothing they can do about it... or... they can. They can "make all his dreams come true." And in 2 years when he finishes this grad program, he's got another 5 year payback, and 12~ years in, and over the half-way mark, sitting on LCdr, thinking "I can do 20, no sweat."

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2015 7:52 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 07:52:23 -0400

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member, believe it or not, the Army sends young CPT's to grad school every year, primarily law, business and logistics grad degree producing schools.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2015 8:41 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 08:41:11 -0400

As a graduate of "Canoe U", and a former student naval flight officer, I would say this is certainly an exception...not the rule. As I recall, simply graduating and accepting the commission got you five years, or a bill for a quarter mil if you didn't complete that term. I believe accepting (or maybe completing) flight training tagged on another two years of service. My peers who attended a graduate school on the Navy's bill assumed more service commitment...or at least that was the gouge. I had a classmate who got bumped from nuke power as an O-2 who got a nice bill from the U.S. Government upon separation. My opinion? If you get an educational benefit from the Service, it should be tied to added value to that service, and a required period of time to prove it.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2015 9:51 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 09:51:17 -0400

So, he has already served out his commitment. If he were just getting out and not going to Dartmouth, would you have a problem with it?

To me, this seems pretty consistent with what the DoD has been trying to implement with the "career intermission" program...allow people to take a year or two off in order to pursue a personal goal, then come back to the military. This seems like a win to me...instead of losing what is, according to the story, a sharp young officer just because he doesn't want to lose the chance to go to graduate school, instead we gain a mid-level CGO with a new commitment timeline and a healthy civilian education, which will help him bring new ideas and innovations to the table. And it still costs less than producing a new officer from scratch.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2015 10:22 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 10:22:43 -0400

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member This isn't too surprising, this was released 20 Aug 15, "The Pentagon wants to send more officers to earn graduate degrees at top-notch civilian universities, a key piece of soon-to-be released personnel reforms that could fundamentally alter the career tracks of senior military leaders."

Source: http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/benefits/education/2015/08/20/graduate-school-proposals/32063579/

DoD plans to send more officers to civilian grad schools

The Pentagon is preparing a plan to send more officers to earn graduate degrees at top-notch civilian universities, a key piece of soon-to-be

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Sep 2 at 2015 10:24 AM

CMSgt James Nolan — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 10:24:15 -0400

On this, I agree with a very well thought out answer by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS . Lt Hollis was extremely lucky, and apparently quite intelligent, and was able to go to school and fly for the Navy. He finished his obligation. He made it clear what he was interested in. They want to keep him and this program is underway, and he got lucky a second time. Great opportunity for him, and the Navy apparently thinks very highly of his capabilities, and will get at least 5 more years after he graduates. And at that point, one would think that he would likely stay, but who knows. In America, we get to chase our dreams.
The way I look at this, if he takes advantage of it and stays, perhaps he will become a stellar commander who truly gets the concept of looking out for his troops. He certainly got looked after, and was given opportunity.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Sep 2 at 2015 11:12 AM

SN Greg Wright — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 11:12:05 -0400

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member I think what struck me most is that you were reading this article whilst launching birds. Lol!

*Runs*.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2015 11:34 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 11:34:58 -0400

1) His picture clearly shows a SWO pin, not pilot's wings, meaning his contract was expired. Most SWOs leave at the end of their first contract.
2) His command showed interest in him for a program specifically designed to keep people like him in the Navy, which I reiterate would not otherwise happen because his contract was up, and they pushed it through because it was mutually beneficial. You would undoubtedly appreciate the same from your command.
3) Have a Snickers. You get angry when you're hungry.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2015 12:55 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 12:55:35 -0400

I think I understand the program, but the math on the specific instance doesn't work out. The commitment out of the Naval Academy is only 5 years if no other training was conducted. Depending on the year graduated, the commitment for a USNA grad who went to flight school is either 7 or 8 years AFTER completing flight school. Which would mean closer to 10 years after graduating.

Response by SPC David S. made Sep 2 at 2015 1:01 PM

SPC David S. — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 13:01:28 -0400

He's in for another 3 years and better educated - who knows seeing how the Navy worked with him to meet his personal goals he just might stay in for 20. I've know many ring knockers punch out after 5. Also one needs to remember this guy is an outlier - this is not the case for all officers. The Navy is working to retain and develop its top junior officers

Response by PO3 Ron J made Sep 2 at 2015 1:12 PM

PO3 Ron J — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 13:12:46 -0400

I served under LT Ondik, even as a butter bar he did much better than senior officers. Great guy and awesome character, at least they are picking the right people to receive this privilege.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2015 1:43 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 13:43:00 -0400

This is nothing new I had a friend that did a fellowship at John Hopkins. In the end he will have a commitment to fulfill once he finish his Masters. Almost all officers in all branches at some point go to school full time and get their Masters as part of their career progression. This is a little unique in that he got to pick his school. But go to any ROTC unit and ask them how many active duty officers are stationed there who only job is to go to school. There are enlisted programs also that will allow you to go to school and get a degree although not at the Master level. Not sure why someones success would "infuriate" but my path would boil your blood. As an E-5 I attended a program that allowed me to get my Associates Degree then I followed that up with ECP (now SA-21) that allowed me to get my Bachelors Degree all while on active duty. I did do my MBA while working a full time job so I know the sacrifices you have made.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Sep 2 at 2015 2:11 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 14:11:28 -0400

A couple of things are in play here. First is do you want to keep someone, what will it take, and is it worth it piece. That's from the employer perspective. We see a lot of qualified pilots punching out to pursue commercial air jobs all the time. So there's stuff to entice them to stay. Same with other skill sets from medical to drones. The second is the SM. Here's where I weigh in to be shrewd with your own career and life. I had some bad experiences where the Navy took things away from me, could care less, etc. so I'm biased. My mental state was to acquire things that couldn't be taken away and education was my safety valve in restoring some sanity and making me more marketable. So anything that puts you in a better position for more diverse future options should be considered carefully. Is it worth it? We'll likely never know for sure but the odds say probably not if you're OK with "some less of whatever".

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Sep 2 at 2015 3:06 PM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 15:06:20 -0400

There are those who get lucky, and get these programs. Navy Post Graduate School in Monterey CA is another one. Military Medical and Legal programs allow things like this, as does the Chaplain Candidate Program...

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2015 4:34 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 16:34:55 -0400

In addition to the graduate programs already mentioned, there are more and more scholarships and fellowships that are added to the list every year. I know of a CPT who now has two graduate degrees on the taxpayer's dollar and a LTC who just completed their PhD 1.5 years ago again, on the taxpayer's dime (but didn't get picked up for COL for the second time and is now out the door....that's kind of a waste).

Response by SCPO Penny Douphinett made Sep 2 at 2015 5:53 PM

SCPO Penny Douphinett — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 17:53:19 -0400

I can understand PO2 Beamer's frustration in having to pay for his education and piecemeal it as he can around his career. To then read an officer who was going to get out receive the opportunity to get the very degree PO Beamer is working so hard toward is a hard bite to digest.

I would only hope these officers are required to attend class in uniform to promote the Navy that is providing this opportunity for them and to remind them they are still Naval officers with all that entails.

While not the subject of this thread, it is an interesting sidebar the Navy pushes its enlisted personnel to pursue further education yet provides a very small amount of programs to achieve this goal and an even smaller window of opportunity leading to a commission when they complete a bachelor's degree.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2015 6:24 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 18:24:09 -0400

Makes sense to me, you left out the point that he then has to come back in and do another 3 year term. I say awesome. We chose our place...our place is not on the dark side of the force (aka Officer) it is on the NCO side of the whole picture. It is fair and we all choose where we are going in the military. On the bright side...GOOD job getting your stuff brother.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2015 6:31 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 18:31:15 -0400

I felt the same way, PO1 Private RallyPoint Member, at various times throughout my military career. Like you, I worked my way through my civilian education, taking two classes at once (four nights a week) for a long time. It was a real chore to earn the degrees I did. And then I'd look over and see commissioned officers attending a civilian university -- FULL TIME -- and still earning their military pay and benefits. And then I'd see many of those same officers jumping ship (leaving the military) at their earliest opportunity. Besides the difference in pay, that was the most unjust aspect of military service I ever witnessed. It just ain't right.

Response by CDR Terry Boles made Sep 2 at 2015 6:43 PM

CDR Terry Boles — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 18:43:32 -0400

Advanced degrees paid by your branch of service is common in the medical community. The SM remains on active duty and has a pay back period after graduation, nothing new here.

The real test is will the branches of service allow the SM to attend any grad school program or just those that closely relate to the SMs profession. MBAs was the norm in the medical profession then that changed with the new focus on your medical profession...thats where the rubber meets the road, the advanced knowledge benefited both the SM and the respective branch of service.

I agree we need to retain the best and the brightest, however there has to be a real benefit to who's paying the bills and that goes well beyond retaining someone on active duty for the sake of retention.

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made Sep 2 at 2015 6:55 PM

PO3 Steven Sherrill — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 18:55:27 -0400

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member first off, this should have been posted in humor. This is definitely bad comedy.

Second the only other thing I can say is (if you are flexible enough) try seeing it from the Navy's point of view as shown above.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Sep 3 at 2015 9:03 AM

PO1 John Miller — Thu, 03 Sep 2015 09:03:11 -0400

If I'm not mistaken there are (or were) a few programs that allow enlisted Sailors to get a Master's degree on the Navy's dime as well.

I remember shortly before I retired there was a new program for people in an IT-type rating (IT and CTN mostly I think) that allowed them to get a Master's in Cyber Security.

PO1 Andrew Gardiner, any idea what I'm talking about?

Response by LTC Randy Thomas made Aug 6 at 2020 3:32 PM

LTC Randy Thomas — Thu, 06 Aug 2020 15:32:58 -0400

If he met his service obligation honorably, more power to him