How should I handle doing a 4856 for an initial counseling when I have not yet done a support form?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Jan 2023 20:02:16 -0500

So I was recently promoted to SSG (E-6) and was placed as my Company Operations NCOIC. I have one SGT (E-5) and they have one SPC (E-4). I was never actually counseling with an NCO support form due to ongoing activities and am at a loss for how to properly give the NCO under me the tools to succeed with the proper way of counseling the NCO on the Support form. Is there a issue if I do a 4856 for the initial then at the quarter mark do the support form or should I start from the support form and not touch the counseling form?

Response by LTC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2023 8:25 PM

LTC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Jan 2023 20:25:05 -0500

Congratulations on the promotion, and my condolences on the lack of a proper support form from you leaders. I'm sorry to say that while you should receive your rater and senior rater's support form, that seldom happens, if ever. I can count one time in my career where I have received a support form from my rater to help me develop my own support form and subsequent counseling statements for my subordinate. I always ask for their support form and a counseling. I seldom receive it, but at least I have tried.
The way I have approached this situation my entire career is to complete the goals section of my support form as best I can. I try to figure out what I can do to help my commander achieve what is needed to meet their commander's requirements. Would it be easier if they would tell me or give me a support form? Absolutely. But since it's not happening, I do my best to come up with my own goals to achieve the team objectives.
Once you have your support form together, I would say complete a 4856 for each subordinate outlining your expectations of them based upon the goals you have established on your own support form. You are basically telling them what they need to achieve to help you complete everything required of your section during the rating period. Your job as a leader is to use these counseling statements to ensure they know how to achieve success on their NCOER with you as their rater. You will be rating them so lay out your expectations from physical fitness to their daily duties.
In short, give them everything you did not receive. I always caveat that my support form and goals may change should my leader decide to suddenly give me more guidance. But generally, my estimated goals remain in place for the rating period.
I wish I could tell you that the right thing would happen according to regs and policy, but this is one of those instances where you need to step up, establish your own goals as best you can, and communicate those down to your Soldiers.
Hope this helps! Best of luck!

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jan 16 at 2023 1:00 AM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Mon, 16 Jan 2023 01:00:00 -0500

My advice is simple:
You should do an initial counseling for your subordinate to let him/her know what you expect, what their assigned responsibilities are, what they may and may not delegate to the Specialist and reinforcing that even if they delegate a task, they are still responsible and you will not entertain as an excuse "Specialist Hamchuck here failed to do what I told him to do." Delegation does not transfer responsibility, because as the NCOIC the responsibility is ultimately yours. As soon as you learn to do the support form correctly do it. The S-1 NCOIC should help you, as you are the Ops NCO for your company, they will help you.
Teach both the NCO and the Specialist the right way the first time, and if you don't know something, then own it, and learn it together.
As the Company Ops NCO, you will have to be proficient on everything that goes to PAC/S-1. You need to plus up on the regs covering NCOERs, Counseling, Awards, and training schedules. Your Commander and First Sergeant, unless they were oxygen deprived at birth, selected you to be the Ops NCO because you are good at what you do. No wise commander ever put a dirt bag in his Ops NCO position because through your hands will pass almost everything that goes from your company to battalion.
With this position also comes the warning: If you mess up, the realization will come from top down. Battalion will not be shy about letting your CO and 1SG just how fracked up THEY are because you messed something up.
There is no class for this job, you just have to learn it. There are Regulations, Policy, and procedures. You would be well advised to learn these quickly.
If you like knowing what is going on, you have the best job in your unit. You are about to learn/find out/figure out more about everything and everyone in your company than you ever wanted to know.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2023 8:43 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Jan 2023 08:43:51 -0500

Conduct your initial counseling with the 4856 (with it already written). Have The NCOER Support Form open at the same time. The Counseling form can have your expectations of them and they of you. During the counseling, sitting side by side, input any and all goals and expectations from the counseling form into the support form (up to and including any other goals and expectations stated outside of the counseling). Then, when it is all said and done, you digitally sign the Initial Counseling block on the Support Form. If you have further questions, you can email me here on RP or via army.mil. I'm the only Thomas P Livingston in the global address book.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jan 16 at 2023 2:37 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Mon, 16 Jan 2023 14:37:08 -0500

Two things, one read the NCO Creed and adapt yourself, seeking guidance, training and professional development. Go to your units promotion board study guide and write down all of the regulations by name and nomenclature. Then electronically download these pubs, regulations and policies so that you can refer as you conduct your daily activity.

Obviously start with the NCOER regulation.