Once the date has come due for an annual NCOER, can you go back and make it a COR NCOER?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Mar 2023 04:35:01 -0500

Question, and I did try and research it in DA Pam 623-3, but once the annual date of 31Jan23 has come due for an annual NCOER, can you even go back and generate and make it a COR. I was thinking that you can do a COR at any time during the rating period but once it passes the annual due date, it’s either an annual or extended annual, etc. Backstory is I had an NCO that Pcsd and came to my section and I did an initial counseling on 01July, but I moved jobs 01Aug. I closed out every other NCO NCOER before I left but told my replacement this specific NCO doesn’t have the 90 days time for me to do a COR, and his annual isn’t due until 31Jan, which should be over 7 months working with them to do an annual. Know they reach out to me and it’s 01Mar with his NCOER now being 30 days late from 31Jan, asking if I’m doing a COR for him. Which doesn’t make sense as I only had 30 days working with him. I would think to take care of this NCO, that the new NCO should just do an annual. I believe they are looking for me to do a change of rater from his last NCOER of 01Feb-01Sep, with unrated time from his PCS and leave, and it will change his new date due to 01Sep. Thanks again.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 3 at 2023 7:05 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Fri, 03 Mar 2023 07:05:08 -0500

Listen, this is messy and a bit unclear. The right thing that should have been done is that the 1SG’s tracker should have caught this before it happened, and if not him then the S-1 NCOER tracker should have caught. You can’t change what has been done. In all fareness to the NCO you are all in the same unit, his NCOIC needs to do the annual with the travel time and be sone with it. Having said that the others in the rating chain need to concur before hand.

Anyway, if the NCO refuses then there is a process that isn’t good for the NCO’s rating continuity but it is what it is.

Everyone has faultvhere so just fix it or you all get a junior NCO off to a rocky start.

Response by MSG Billy Brumfield made Mar 3 at 2023 11:28 AM

MSG Billy Brumfield — Fri, 03 Mar 2023 11:28:54 -0500

Can't the new rater do a "complete the record" NCOER to include those 30 or so days?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2023 3:14 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Mar 2023 15:14:05 -0500

What does the Senior Rater say about this mess?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2023 6:56 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 04 Mar 2023 06:56:56 -0500

Update. I’m order to stop this craziness, I just submitted a COR through the end date when I left the unit 01Sep22, even though it’s almost 7 months ago and his annual was due 01Feb23. At the end of it all it’s taking care of soldiers. Thanks all.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2023 10:59 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 10:59:59 -0500

I dont think a COR is needed. I went from one unit to another without a COR but had an annual done in the new unit.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2023 11:07 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 11:07:33 -0500

It is good to submit a COR, especially in the event there is no school eval for this time period. Never let an NCO have a period where they are not rated during that year.

Response by PFC(P) Victor F. made Mar 6 at 2023 11:13 AM

PFC(P) Victor F. — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 11:13:22 -0500

I was summoned …

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2023 11:14 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 11:14:26 -0500

I'm pretty sure it has been mentioned, this should have been addressed before now. The only thing in my opinion that can be done is to provide the rated NCO with an extended annual evaluation with some no rated time. This is probably causing the 1SG some undue headache because the replacement NCO should have ensured the newly arrived NCO is taken care of.

Response by SGT Drue Rockwell made Mar 6 at 2023 11:58 AM

SGT Drue Rockwell — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 11:58:32 -0500

It looks like you did the right thing in a less than optimal situation. As others have stated, multiple levels should have caught this earlier on, but we take care of our people, first and foremost.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2023 11:59 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 11:59:25 -0500

Sorry Carlos, but when I was faced with this, my GOTO was the Post CSM! They were always quick to offer some advice in dealing with PERSCOM or the immediate Chain of Command Rater or Reviewer! Wish I could be of more help but it’s been too long and the Reg’s change so often, it’s next to impossible to give good advice on this one!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2023 12:12 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 12:12:20 -0500

There should be a code for unrated time that stipulates there wasn’t enough time for the previous rater to be a qualified rater. That should be the appropriate answer. However, what tends to happen is that the new NCOIC absorbs that time and has a list of things from the outgoing NCOIC regarding what the rated NCO accomplished and how well they accomplished it as well as any and all quantifiables

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2023 12:21 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 12:21:20 -0500

Greetings SFC. Not sure how it works up at HQDA when it comes to late reports but in my experience, my second to last annual NCOER was backdated a few months as it was already 2 months late. My 1SG told my rater (an officer who had already since PCSed) he had to write it. Already late as it was, my Commander got ahold of my rater and told him to write it, to which he complied.

All of us learned our lessons with this: Raters need to be writing their reports in a timely manner; Senior leaders need to be paying attention to their trackers and hold raters accountable for making sure it gets done and rated Soldiers need to learn how to manage their rater tactfully as late reports can result in a blemish in their career moving forward. But, when stuff like this happens, I completely agree with your decision of taking care of this NCO first instead of unnecessarily pointing fingers at people who are "always to busy to keep up with their duties".

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2023 1:49 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 13:49:17 -0500

This is why 1SG's give their left arm for a competent BN S-1 NCOIC. As the CSM laid out, EVERYONE here is at fault. The key is what is the most common sense (not common I know) solution which takes care of the Rated Soldier. In the end what the good SFC made happen did just that. The better solution on the part of the Unit would have been to use the Letter of Continuity (as suggested) or the 30 Day counseling to enable the new Rater to complete an Annual NCOER.
The Unit 1SG carries the water on this one. It's his/her Tracker. Too many will delegate to a PAC Sup, etc but the buck stops at the big desk. It's the 1SG's job to hold everyone's feet to the fire and if the PSGs can't get timely effort out of SR Raters, that's when they engage the 1SG. I served in a combat brigade where late NCOERs were under the threat of a Letter of Concern to the Rater & SR Rater's permanent file. That's a potential career killer to a Sr NCO or Officer. Too many do not take this obligation seriously...consequences.
Baby 1SGs (PSGs) not doing their administrative duties and SR Raters not taking care of their NCOs throw 1SGs into fits of rage because it keeps them in the office chasing down nonsense instead of allowing them to get out with the troops.

Response by CSM Carlson C. made Mar 6 at 2023 1:55 PM

CSM Carlson C. — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 13:55:34 -0500

This is very unclear, and I can barely follow the conveyed facts. So please answer these questions so we can get the bottom line info.

1. Was the thru date of the previous eval 31 Jan 2022?

2. If the previous thru date was correct, who was the rater between 1 Feb 2022 and 1 July 2022, and why did they not complete a CoR?

3. What were the dates of non-rated time, I.E. NCOES, long TDY, and long periods of leave?

4. If you were only the rater for 30 days, there should have been a CoR for the period 1 Feb 2022 thru 30 Jun 2022. When you left, that non-rated time would be tacked on the front end of his next eval, possibly with a thru date of around Aug 2023. I can't give you exact dates without the precise dates of this story.

Extended annuals have time on the front end, not the back. This is to cover situations like this. In AR 623-3 page 66 (74 of the PDF) shows a great visual example of an extended annual. I do not see how this Soldier was due an eval in Jan 2023 with the information provided unless there was another CoR. This was an absolute mess that could have been avoided. Unfortunately the Soldier is the one who is hurt here.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2023 2:20 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 14:20:40 -0500

There are some decent answers here already. That being said, the Soldier’s annual eval date should not change just because he got a COR. If his COR started his non-rated time, and you got him for a month toward the end of his annual due date, you can rate him for the new annual. Then his next will be right on track. It doesn’t matter to HQDA if the NCOER is late, it just matters that the dates all line up. Bottom line: Take care of your guy and don’t get too hung up on rating chains.

PS. If you bother the Garrison CSM with an NCOER question that no one else in you CoC can answer, I guarantee some NCODP is coming your units way!

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2023 3:52 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 15:52:43 -0500

What date was this Soldier assigned to his current position?

This needs clarification, because you say you did an initial counseling on 1 JUL.
if that was anywhere close to when the Soldier was assigned, then his annual should not be due 31 JAN, he should have got a CoR NCOER from his last job, making his next "annual" due 365 days after he left his last job.

Response by SGM Harvey Hicks made Mar 6 at 2023 4:53 PM

SGM Harvey Hicks — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 16:53:01 -0500

SFC Johnson, I know I’m late to this party, but Carlos Madden asked me to chime in, so I will. Now, it seems to be just a teaching moment since a NCOER has already been submitted. My hope is that he didn’t have any non-rated time and that all his performance was fairly and completely assessed and documented. I’m not sure if you can do any NCOERs “outside the system” anymore, even to take care of the Soldier.
If the rated Soldier came to you on 1JUL, then I’d be reaching out to the losing unit looking for his close out NCOER (thru 30JUN, hopefully). Then, after the initial counseling, you were out of the picture and off the hook. It should’ve then been up to your replacement to do his counseling and do an annual for the rated Soldier on 30JUN the next year. Maybe I’m being redundant on some previous replies or overstating the obvious, but, the vital thing is to do what’s right for the rated Soldier.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Mar 6 at 2023 5:17 PM

1SG Michael Blount — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 17:17:30 -0500

This is a doozy. At first blush, I'm thinking the incoming NCO should just do an annual, so all the time is accounted for and there's no unrated time. Unrated time can be a real pain to explain to people who just shuffle paper all damned day.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2023 7:22 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Mar 2023 07:22:44 -0500

Depending on his last thru date, then your time with him was unrated time and should be reflected on the NCOER with his next rater. Unrated time isn't a bad thing, it happens. There are a lot of explanations for why a Soldier has to log unrated time.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2023 11:56 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Mar 2023 11:56:46 -0500

I don’t think there is anything else I can add that hasn’t already been suggested but I have philosophical input.

First, I agree with both CSM ZaGara and SFC Johnson. The administrative process makes it messy with suspense dates, but for me, I follow 2 guiding principles. 1) Soldier care. 2) Usually you can’t change what’s already done and I’ve also dealt with poor administrative personnel/NCOs who did not conduct ratings for extended periods. So, paper after the fact to address deficiencies if possible and make sure you move forward correctly.

Response by SGM Major Stroupe made May 8 at 2023 3:38 PM

SGM Major Stroupe — Mon, 08 May 2023 15:38:24 -0400

Very simple. The NCO should do the Annual and it should have been timely. A COR was not required and you did the appropriate thing. Maybe the failure should also reflected on the NCO"s NCOER for not providing initial counseling (if it wasn't done by the new NCO), and timely rating by the NCO to do the Annual. No excuse for the late NCOER. And why wasn't the S-1 on top of this? There's more to this story than is being told.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2023 2:21 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 Jun 2023 14:21:10 -0400

I know I'm late to the discussion but based off what you said, the NCO should receive an extended annual from last thru date thru 01JUL23. The period from his last thru date until he arrived should be accounted as non-rated time with applicable codes for why he didn't get a COR before leaving, I.E.: I - SM in Transit. Q - Lack of Rater Qual, S - Mil School, etc.
Your replacement could have easily assumed those 30 days while he was under you.
Everyone thinks non-rated time is such a bad thing, but as long as it's accounted for accurately, it's completely fine.