NCOs who "care more about themselves than their Soldiers"

SGT Robert Riley — Thu, 18 Feb 2016 13:27:08 -0500

Recently, I read a discussion on RallyPoint about “NCOs who care more about themselves than their soldiers.” It was a complaint that I often heard from the collective mouths of our junior enlisted when I served in both the Reserve and Active duty side of the house. Sometimes, the complaint was unwarranted because it was some immature “Joe” who didn’t get his way and got put in his place by a NCO who knew better. But most of the time, you had to step back and wonder: what made these soldiers come to the conclusion that their NCOs didn’t give a damn about them?

To start off, not all NCOs are like that. I have worked with NCOs who really cared about the welfare of their troops, especially when the issue was outside the company area. Personally, as a NCO myself, I would check in with my E4s and below to make sure that everything was running smoothly for them. They made sure that their troops had food to eat and got to work on time, to ensuring that they were trained to standard so that they wouldn’t make costly mistakes on the battlefield and didn’t combatively engage with each other or their significant others. I counseled them off the record or offered the negative reinforcement to steer them back on the right path.

Then you had NCOs who were just sergeants. They really didn’t give a crap about the “Joes” in their charge and would grudgingly share their knowledge and act as if they were nuns vigorously defending their virginity from Viking raiders.

In one Reserve unit I served in, I ran across NCOs like that. They treated you as a nuisance if you wanted to hone your skills and become a better soldier. They were just there to attend drill and collect that check. So your only option, as pointed by others before me, was to break out the manuals and learn OJT or seek out and find that one NCO who would behave as they should and mentor you correctly until it is your turn one day to do the same with a new batch of soldiers.

Generally, I believe that it’s the lack of following traditions that produces sergeants that don’t take the NCO Creed very seriously. Political correctness is now the new tradition in the U.S. Army and I believe that makes some NCOs not want to care. But this brings us to another issue: junior enlisted who behave as if they are entitled to everything under the sun. Why should I, as an NCO, try to do my job when PFC So-and-so is such a sensitive creature that he/she retires to his/her imaginary pillow fort or calls the congressman because I yelled for some infraction?

Instead of allowing misguided politicians and military personnel who are out of touch with reality to use the Army for social experiments, we need to go back to our traditions and let the NCOs be NCOs and do what they do best: their jobs. We also need to stop promoting inexperienced E4s to that spot until they are taught how to be followers and leaders by example. Writing a counselling statement doesn’t make someone a good NCO - it just shows others that you couldn’t have solved that issue in another manner.

It’s sad when the junior enlisted are griping about NCOs that don’t care because, those E1s, E2s, E3s, and E4s are going to mimic that sergeant and wind up hearing their own soldiers make the same complaints that they had made, perpetuating the cycle.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2016 1:30 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Feb 2016 13:30:57 -0500

I think it is a product of culture in every branch. I know a lot has changed in recent years, and much of it for good, but at the same time, the E-5 and E-6 ranks seem to bound with what they can do, therefore a lot take the approach where they only do for themselves. Personally, this pisses me off. I may gotten to this position myself, but by no means should I sacrifice another's chance by not helping them if they need it. My sailors come first to me no matter what. As I get ready for my next sea duty, I have had to take a look at how others lead to make sure I do not emulate the bad ones who act this way.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Feb 18 at 2016 1:41 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 18 Feb 2016 13:41:39 -0500

The analogy I will use is they stop being a child when the become adults, then and only then, will they know how petty they were.

Response by SSgt Jamie Ritter LeBlanc made Feb 18 at 2016 1:44 PM

SSgt Jamie Ritter LeBlanc — Thu, 18 Feb 2016 13:44:15 -0500

Well said!

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Feb 18 at 2016 2:11 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Thu, 18 Feb 2016 14:11:43 -0500

You're pointing out an aspect of the military that has existed since armies were first formed long before Christ. Modern analysts like to say it's because humans in every aspect are somewhere on a bell curve. That's fancy talk for many care, many don't. You're pointing to a solution that when reinforced, tends to drive down or force out the "don't cares". I don't know if the Marines spend more time or focus on fewer and more specific array of NCO characteristics, or do both. I do know that the larger organizations become, they tend to do more by instructions (regulations) because they can't rely on middle managers (NCOs) to get the same word to the worker bees all the time. Unfortunately, if RP posts are any indication, the mountain of regulations drives a lot of confusion.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2016 3:11 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Feb 2016 15:11:28 -0500

I get so tired of hearing get back to the basics and taking care of Soldiers. I have a sign on my office door that reads "what have you done for the Soldier today". Taking care of Soldiers is not making sure they wake up for pt, making sure they brush their teeth and wipe their fourth point of contact. Taking care of Soldiers is providing them proper resources to accomplish what ever mission. It's showing them how, observing, providing guidance when needed, and retraining if necessary. You may have heard the CSA speak on Soldiers taking ownership. That comes from empowering them to make the decisions on their own and step in when needed. Keep coddling Soldiers and you're going to end up with leaders who won't make the tough decisions, ones that can't take care of Soldiers because he/she is to afraid to let the PL or CDR know when shit doesn't make sense and to control the good idea fairy. Don't be afraid to let these young Soldiers fail, it's the only way they are going to learn. In turn you have taken care of the Soldier.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2016 3:41 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Feb 2016 15:41:52 -0500

This is a double edge sword, on one side you or correct, and on the next well it's a bit off. NCO's in my mind do and will forever care for the Soldier because we know that they are our most valuable asset. But let me get off the soap box for just one second to explain the difference in caring for the Soldier and the Soldier saying no one cares for him/her. You can care about the Soldier to the point when they miss formation/movement you counsel them to the fullest, or they can do he same and you pay their backs and blame your leadership style. Either way you're failing the Soldier, so you just have to go with the lesser of the two which to me is counsel the Soldier so that they understand the full extent of their actions. No to my point that I think is ruining the Soldier-Leader relationship, 1st all these SSD when we can teach our soldiers those skills our selves, that takes away the face to face, and step by step instructions between the Leader and their troops. 2nd making promotions into a cut throat game is in my opinion forcing NCO's to worry about getting to those career progression timelines because of the fear of getting slapped with the thank you for your Service slips. I also see the 15+ years of world wide deployments affecting our relationships. A lot of Soldiers do not understand garrison leadership. I was lucky to be in the group that most would say experienced the tail of what the Army was pre-war, and for that I'm grateful to have served with some Great NCO's on the back end of their careers who taught me the way as best as they could before we got sent out to Iraq 6 months after raising our right hands. I just think this is a debate that we must have more of, and implement ways to get better, such as having some of the post war/garrison leaders that have now retired to still be affiliated with the military to come in and mentor NCO's on what it takes to lead in a garrison setting.

Response by SCPO Jason McLaughlin made Feb 18 at 2016 3:48 PM

SCPO Jason McLaughlin — Thu, 18 Feb 2016 15:48:19 -0500

First off, can we do away with the phrase "take care of Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, Airmen". They are grown adults that do not need to be "taken care of"! As an NCO, it is my responsibility to provide the troops I lead with the opportunity, resources, and leadership required to succeed.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2016 4:03 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Feb 2016 16:03:04 -0500

I follow the old adage" give a man a fish, he eats for a day, but, teach a man to fish and he eats for life." No, we are not parents, but we are mentors, and the gatekeepers of the standard. Being a mentor doesnt mean you coddle, it means you sit down and discuss how different options would have changed to outcome of a situation.

If a Soldier is lacking life skills, you teach them. You talk to them and counsel them to come up with a plan of action. Those monthly counselling sessions are so you can gain insight into a shortcoming. I'm not saying have pvt Joe stuffy over for dinner, but, find out where their head is at. Even if you're just a Guardsmen, like me, you touch base with your troops at minimum, weekly. Even if it's to say hey, you alive? One day that Soldier will carry on your legacy. It is up to you to leave them a legacy to carry on. That doesn't mean don't light them up if they screw up royally, but find out why they screwed up. Come up with a plan to not do it again. Give them the tools and show them how to use them, then it is up to them. Some of the best lessons I ever learned were from trial and error.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Feb 18 at 2016 4:03 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Thu, 18 Feb 2016 16:03:28 -0500

those E1s, E2s, E3s, and E4s are going to mimic, this is a rite of passage, but with time they all grow up, even Academy 2LT's.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Feb 18 at 2016 5:01 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Thu, 18 Feb 2016 17:01:05 -0500

This complaint has been around since the dawn of time. As a private I had Squad Leaders that were pegged out at both ends of the spectrum. SGT Faulk was like Audie Murphy, SGT Morales, James Bond and Kung Fu rolled into one when you say SGT he's the image that pops into your mind. The guy was hard as woodpecker lips and we learned a lot from him tactically, technically and life skills. The other example I won't name since he may be alive or his family may be around, but he was the shining example of the selfish SGT and in 30 years of service I never saw anyone as worthless as he was. However both served as examples; one what an NCO should be, and the other what an NCO should never be. The rest just did their jobs and over all kept me and the crew out of mischief.

Response by TSgt Melissa Post made Feb 19 at 2016 1:14 AM

TSgt Melissa Post — Fri, 19 Feb 2016 01:14:29 -0500

I have noticed in my field of work that there are great supervisors or there are great workers. Rare is it that you will find a combination of both. I have had a couple of supervisors that were there for me, to listen when I needed to talk, guide me in a better direction, and mentor me in the ways of the Air Force but bless their hearts they sucked at their actual job. Then I have had other supervisors that were stellar maintainers, knew their tech data and references like the back of their hand, and got along with all other leadership; but they sucked at being there for their troops. If I needed something legit, their response was "figure it out". I was struggling with understanding my CDCs when I first got to my duty station and my supervisor who was on a different shift from me told me flat out "you are not my job". That went over really well when another higher ranking NCO found out. I hear that the best you can do in those situations is to pick out the traits you found least helpful and don't follow that path and pick out the traits you found most helpful and try to mimic that.

Response by SSG Keith Cashion made Feb 19 at 2016 11:54 AM

SSG Keith Cashion — Fri, 19 Feb 2016 11:54:47 -0500

Here is what I see, and Yes there is too much PC and too many that are afraid of hurting little Johnny and Susie's feelings. There is like most have said, "Taking Care of Soldiers and Coddling Soldiers." I agree with the one statement that if Joe doesn't know when to go eat...he missed it. As an NCO's we are charged with the Health, Welfare and Training of our Soldiers, ok then that is what we do. You counsel every month and you cover those thing. You reiterate that these are the times and places that you need to be for PT, Work Call, Formation, etc, etc and the Soldier has been informed. Because I believe in one thing, and that is Unless Momma and Daddy had to sign to get you in the Military, you pulled up your Big Boy or Girl panties and said "I am an Adult, and want to join the Military"....boom. The days of having someone make sure I ate, brushed my teeth, scrubbed my ass are over, it's all on me.

Once they go through basic and secondary MOS training, they are trained Service Members. I bet if you tell them they have time off, they have no problem telling you what they are going to do, and could probably give you a detail time line to boot.

My point is this, these Soldiers are Adults, and as such need to be treated as Adults, nothing more nothing less. We train them to fight, we make sure that they understand the Adult rules of being in the Military. We mentor, train and guide them so they can make that adult decision to remain in the military or to see the big picture that "Maybe this isn't all its cracked up to be." As to Soldiers and their sense of entitlement...you are entitled to nothing, and owed nothing.

Half Nickel of the Day.

Response by PO3 David Fries made Feb 20 at 2016 6:10 AM

PO3 David Fries — Sat, 20 Feb 2016 06:10:06 -0500

Do you know what's scary? The fact that the one thing I took away from your post is that you call yourself an NCO, and then refer to your E4's and below. Is an E4 in the Army not an NCO rank?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2016 6:18 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Feb 2016 18:18:46 -0500

I have experienced both sides of the coin. My direct NCO support channel as a junior enlisted had some solid NCO s intermingled in it...however I felt that ended at the platoon sergeant/section sergeant area. When I came over to my new unit, they were pretty solid as well. We dont necessarily see eye to eye on certain things but as I start to transition out of the military, I know that they truly cared, or they wouldnt be having the 2300 hour phone call from me and still be willing to talk about issues (I had a lot in 2014, all in very close proximity).

On the other side, the technician program/AGR program seemed to be that way as mentioned above. Very little in their way of going out of the box to assist a soldier in need. It seemed they were there to cover their own ass, and I can tell you this much-go into a unit that consists of 90 percent AGR/Techs and see if an M day er gets treated like a second class citizen. You d be astounded at what you see and observe.

Response by SSG Brian Kresge made Feb 28 at 2016 6:54 PM

SSG Brian Kresge — Sun, 28 Feb 2016 18:54:13 -0500

I'm in the curious position, in the first time in the last decade or so, of being without direct reports, where E-6 is the lowest rank in our particular staff section.

"Taking care of Soldiers" has come to mean a large number of things. In human terms, it's everything we learn and NCOES, plus a little bit of paternal/maternal care, even if we are loathe to do it. It's being educators and counselors. It's late nights making sure your own stuff is straight so they have no doubts that you are the domain expert they need.

It's about being an advocate, tactfully and appropriately, when they need an advocate.

Now that I'm not filling out counseling forms for junior enlisted, I miss it. I miss being engaged in helping them realize their value to their peers, or helping them realize what value they potentially may bring. I try to do it now, as an E-6 and lowest ranking member of our staff section, for the soldiers in other sections. It's easy to say for certain jobs around the TOC, "we have plenty of E4 and below that can do it, at 20+ years I've done my time," but I lose an opportunity to build rapport, to set the frame for engaged junior leadership, and to be a representative of the NCO Corps.

I'll say, and I'm hope other long-serving members will say the same, that I haven't seen a terrific shift in NCOs taking care of soldiers unless it's coupled with the increasing youth of junior leaders. I tend to be very positive about our role and our collective impact on Soldiers, though.

Response by SGT Mathew Husen made Feb 28 at 2016 7:13 PM

SGT Mathew Husen — Sun, 28 Feb 2016 19:13:42 -0500

I found the issue with the reserves is blanket promotions. Too often someone is promoted because of the buddy buddy system versus promoting someone who demonstrates they have what it takes to be part of the backbone of the Army.

Response by Robin Rutherford made Feb 28 at 2016 8:12 PM

Robin Rutherford — Sun, 28 Feb 2016 20:12:32 -0500

It is sad that they are griping about NCOs who don't care, but let's give praise to those that do care, like our son, who is one of the greatest leaders the Army has ever had. Those that aren't doing their job properly may need more training or guidance themselves. It's all for one and one for all. Help each other out instead of bad mouthing or putting anyone down. Work together!!

Response by CMSgt Frank Dailey made Feb 28 at 2016 8:29 PM

CMSgt Frank Dailey — Sun, 28 Feb 2016 20:29:54 -0500

Bottomline: Leaders lead! Impostors just pay lip service. This weekend I was able to spend time with several of my former SNCOs who are now CSM or Chief Master Sergeants, we sat and talked and they told me stories of how I gave them a choice at a turning point in their career, they could quit or put on their big boy pants and cowboy up! When I was an NCO I had a SNCO who was sleeping with his junior enlisted and a Major who would pawn off any and every mistake to his NCOs. Did we complain...nope, we organized our team to be able to get the job done and also make sure we could ensure we got our team out in front of the senior leaders so they were not only there receiving paperwork for others mistakes. We took time to build a team share best practices and help each other grow! From that we became a force that could not be stifled, in spite of those who would have tried to take credit for our achievements. There were 10 enlisted, 6 made E-7, 2 E8 and 2 E-9, of the 5 Junior officers we had 1 Major who stayed in a special duty assignment, 2x LTC and 2x O6's ...we had a shitty Major who retired as a Major and a SNCO who is married to one of our Airman who does not have a relationship with his first family and oh yeah he never was promoted. We as a team were better because we had to overcome the SNCOs and Officers who did not fill the bill. We worked harder together to make it work and we learned to lead. I will remind you with Gen Colin Powell's advice think about the worst of the leaders you have had and promise yourself that you will never repeat their mistakes!

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made Feb 28 at 2016 9:52 PM

PFC Tuan Trang — Sun, 28 Feb 2016 21:52:32 -0500

Sgt, I think it just depend on the individual nco, some do care about they soldier, some don't, for instance, my 1st always ask my sgt to take me to lunch.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 29 at 2016 5:25 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 29 Feb 2016 05:25:14 -0500

This attitude goes all the way up the ranks. E-9's and 8's don't give two shits about E-7's, 6's, and 5's in some cases.

Response by SGT Barry Third made Feb 29 at 2016 2:58 PM

SGT Barry Third — Mon, 29 Feb 2016 14:58:30 -0500

As a Retired Army NCO and a father of a Marine , i find this story to be total crap , NCO have to put there troops ahead of them everyday , You may not see it but it is done , Its what defines us as leaders, and Mostly how we are judged for promotions ,

Response by Sgt Robert Rivard made Feb 29 at 2016 6:44 PM

Sgt Robert Rivard — Mon, 29 Feb 2016 18:44:20 -0500

Sure wasn't like that when I was in. 1968-1971.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2016 2:39 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Mar 2016 14:39:31 -0500

I have worked with all of three NCOs in my career thus far that genuinely cared about their Joes. Every single other one was looking out for Numero-Uno. They would say with their lips that "soldiers are their first priority," but ask for mentorship, leadership, guidance, or career/professional/personal development, and they disappeared so quick, or they gave you some half-a**ed excuse about why they couldn't help. My favorite one (and the one I get almost every day now) is "we just don't have time or manpower to help you. Go read the FM." Are you serious? You're a damn NCO!! I AM your job! I work under you, and I am supposed to look up to you and rely on you to help me grow and develop into a successful soldier and NCO. But I cannot do that because you don't want to do your job and MAKE the time to help your Joe? Well, then I think it's high time you took those stripes off of your chest and stuck some mosquito wings on, because that is about as useful as you get as an NCO. Trust and believe, if one of my Joes were to ever come to me and ask for help once I earn my stripes, they become my first priority. And if that means I need to stay a couple extra hours and not dash off at 1630 so that I can hit the gym and still be home before 1800, so freaking be it. I seriously want to print out copies of the NCO Creed and start throwing it at people every time they fail in their duties and responsibilities as an NCO. *rant over*

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Mar 26 at 2017 4:49 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sun, 26 Mar 2017 16:49:52 -0400

I would like to hear some examples of how leaders care more themselves than their subordinates. Subordinates can be very manipulative and selfish little brats. I've only met a few in my career and they were kicked out of the Army for basically being douche bags.

Response by SFC Donald Souza made Mar 19 at 2018 7:58 PM

SFC Donald Souza — Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:58:01 -0400

If that is the case that NCO is a dirt bag

Response by SrA Shawn Nelson made Jun 3 at 2018 1:26 PM

SrA Shawn Nelson — Sun, 03 Jun 2018 13:26:47 -0400

It's not just NCOs that are the problem. But when a low ranking enlisted does make a minor mistake it shouldn't be career ender. Also looking to pile on made up infractions after the fact should never happen.

Response by SGT Scott Henderson made Oct 24 at 2018 8:37 AM

SGT Scott Henderson — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:37:49 -0400

Is it at all possible that tge systematic de-balling of the NCO Corp over the last 5-10 years has something to do with this?

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Oct 24 at 2018 8:45 AM

SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM — Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:45:22 -0400

Should never make the rank of NCO or sergeant whatever.

Response by SSG K Johnson made Dec 4 at 2018 3:47 PM

SSG K Johnson — Tue, 04 Dec 2018 15:47:44 -0500

Too many NCO's forget where they came from. All branches.

Response by PO1 Glenn Cooper made Mar 24 at 2019 10:12 PM

PO1 Glenn Cooper — Sun, 24 Mar 2019 22:12:21 -0400

Our 1stSgt drilled into us, troops eat before you do, get habitability issues first, gear taken care of, everything. If your going to ask a someone to possibly get killed, the least you can do is let them eat first. Beans and bullets first for the rank and file. Lead from the front also, that’s why they gave you those nifty plates and that cool helmet.

Response by MSgt Ted C Hall made Aug 29 at 2019 8:24 AM

MSgt Ted C Hall — Thu, 29 Aug 2019 08:24:41 -0400

Seen it, never understood it. Developing my people's skills not only got them promotions, but gave me troops that were qualified to share the workload.
When I was leading teams it was a 24/7 job. From making sure they got a good breakfast to ensuring billiting gave them decent quarters. Every detail of the TDY was my responsibility. FWIW that was as a 23 year old E5.
Hundreds of miles from our home base we installed, modified, and relocated critical navigational systems and weather sensors.
From a selfish standpoint having troops that could run to supply for parts, deal with other problems that would have taken me away from the job site, and work independently just made my job easier.
It also got my people the leadership and technical skills they needed to be doing my job in the future.
I always thought training the kids working for me into my job WAS why I was there.

Response by SPC John Kato made Mar 7 at 2020 5:10 AM

SPC John Kato — Sat, 07 Mar 2020 05:10:49 -0500

In my one enlistment, I had a lot of good leaders who were NCOs and just a couple who looked out for themselves first.