SFC Private RallyPoint Member 8092667 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I am concerned with the grey area outlined in TB MED 287 (10 DEC 2014), which states, &quot;The beard must be uniform and neatly trimmed to a length of no more than 1/4 inch of curled hair in order to maintain a neat and professional appearance. No styling of the beard is allowed whatsoever (e.g. no goatees, handlebar mustache, etc…)&quot;. This language allows for too much subjectivity in defining what is considered a style.<br /><br />My concern is that I have Soldiers that have shaving profiles and Senior leaders within my unit have a problem with a few of them ie. one Soldier trims only the top of his mustache to keep a neat appearance. His mustache does not connect to his beard; therefore, it should not be considered a part of his beard and should be kept neatly trimmed and tapered according to Army Regulation 670-1 1-8 2(c). AR 670-1 states that any Soldier with medical treatment &quot;will keep the growth trimmed to the level specified by the appropriate medical authority, but are not authorized to shape the hair growth (examples include, but are not limited to, goatees, “Fu Manchu,” or handlebar mustaches).&quot; Trimming the mustache to keep a neat appearance, by army regulation, would not fall into the category of shaping hair growth.<br /><br />Another Soldier trims the bottom of his neck, lower than his beard. He claims that when the hair on his neck exceeds a certain length, it starts to irritate him and becomes uncomfortable and forces him to scratch at it throughout the day, therefore causing irritation towards that area. When he trims the bottom of his neck, there&#39;s no indication of it being &quot;lined up,&quot; only a subtle fade into his actual beard.<br /><br />I&#39;m not making excuses for these Soldiers, and if they are wrong, then they are wrong and I will fix the issue with them myself. The army has gotten away from regulation and has gone more with &quot;isms&quot; and &quot;how it was back in the day&quot; or &quot;how they were brought up&quot;. I talked to our Brigade physician, and he was unprepared for this situation. I explained everything and asked him what the correct answer and his response was, &quot;Just go off of what your CSM says.&quot; This is definitely not the right answer. I also went to IG, not to complain but to find the right answer, and I basically received the same answer. I just need some guidance on what I should do to assist these Soldiers. What should I do to assist soldiers whose facial hair and shaving profile fall in a grey area? 2023-01-20T10:59:50-05:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 8092667 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I am concerned with the grey area outlined in TB MED 287 (10 DEC 2014), which states, &quot;The beard must be uniform and neatly trimmed to a length of no more than 1/4 inch of curled hair in order to maintain a neat and professional appearance. No styling of the beard is allowed whatsoever (e.g. no goatees, handlebar mustache, etc…)&quot;. This language allows for too much subjectivity in defining what is considered a style.<br /><br />My concern is that I have Soldiers that have shaving profiles and Senior leaders within my unit have a problem with a few of them ie. one Soldier trims only the top of his mustache to keep a neat appearance. His mustache does not connect to his beard; therefore, it should not be considered a part of his beard and should be kept neatly trimmed and tapered according to Army Regulation 670-1 1-8 2(c). AR 670-1 states that any Soldier with medical treatment &quot;will keep the growth trimmed to the level specified by the appropriate medical authority, but are not authorized to shape the hair growth (examples include, but are not limited to, goatees, “Fu Manchu,” or handlebar mustaches).&quot; Trimming the mustache to keep a neat appearance, by army regulation, would not fall into the category of shaping hair growth.<br /><br />Another Soldier trims the bottom of his neck, lower than his beard. He claims that when the hair on his neck exceeds a certain length, it starts to irritate him and becomes uncomfortable and forces him to scratch at it throughout the day, therefore causing irritation towards that area. When he trims the bottom of his neck, there&#39;s no indication of it being &quot;lined up,&quot; only a subtle fade into his actual beard.<br /><br />I&#39;m not making excuses for these Soldiers, and if they are wrong, then they are wrong and I will fix the issue with them myself. The army has gotten away from regulation and has gone more with &quot;isms&quot; and &quot;how it was back in the day&quot; or &quot;how they were brought up&quot;. I talked to our Brigade physician, and he was unprepared for this situation. I explained everything and asked him what the correct answer and his response was, &quot;Just go off of what your CSM says.&quot; This is definitely not the right answer. I also went to IG, not to complain but to find the right answer, and I basically received the same answer. I just need some guidance on what I should do to assist these Soldiers. What should I do to assist soldiers whose facial hair and shaving profile fall in a grey area? 2023-01-20T10:59:50-05:00 2023-01-20T10:59:50-05:00 Lt Col Charlie Brown 8092706 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I don&#39;t envy you on this...no one wants to come down with hard and fast rules anymore only to have them overturned for religious or racial reasons. <br /> Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Jan 20 at 2023 11:28 AM 2023-01-20T11:28:35-05:00 2023-01-20T11:28:35-05:00 Lt Col Jim Coe 8092778 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I think your answer is in AR670-1, &quot;will keep the growth trimmed to the level specified by the appropriate medical authority.&quot; You were correct of ask the command surgeon for help. He or she should review the shaving profile and medical provider&#39;s notes supporting the profile to determine the medically appropriate beard allowed. If the profile does not provide the needed guidance, then the medical community should revise the profile to define the allowable beard. This is truly a case-by-case situation, but the medical folks need to help supervisors and commanders by defining the &quot;treatment&quot; needed. (There may be privacy concerns with the medical records, but your commander can talk with the command surgeon if needed.) Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jan 20 at 2023 12:17 PM 2023-01-20T12:17:15-05:00 2023-01-20T12:17:15-05:00 SFC Casey O'Mally 8092786 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Regs have been like this for as long as I was in. Hair cannot be &quot;faddish.&quot; Great, who decides what is faddish? CSM (or, often, 1SG) does. Who decides what is &quot;shaped&quot; or &quot;styled?&quot; It starts at Team Leader and goes up through NCO chain. <br /><br />Seriously, this is straight up NCO business and is up to NCO discretion. If Soldier and Team Leader cannot come to understanding - or if their understanding does not meet Squad / Section Leader&#39;s approval - Squad Leader steps in. And on and on up the NCO Support Channel. <br /><br />What can you do? Identify and maintain a uniform, non-discriminatory, standard. Then maintain that standard, unless 1SG steps in and gives additional guidance. Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Jan 20 at 2023 12:19 PM 2023-01-20T12:19:28-05:00 2023-01-20T12:19:28-05:00 MSG Private RallyPoint Member 8092846 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I think the emphasis on shaving while in garrison makes little sense. We need to modernize our grooming standards, like what happened with females as of recent, and drive forward with less distractions about something as insignificant as facial hair. Keep in mind I said garrison.<br /><br />That aside, managing the regulation and policy as-is is strictly NCO business. Receive guidance from the senior NCO and run with it. If you have objections, state them behind closed doors and allow them to make the decision for the organization and carry out their orders. I trust many SNCOs understand regulatory requirements and are open to following them as interpreted. Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2023 12:55 PM 2023-01-20T12:55:57-05:00 2023-01-20T12:55:57-05:00 SSgt Christophe Murphy 8092902 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>styling of the beard means to groom the beard in a way to improve how it looks. fading it or grooming it to look a certain way or style. I saw this a little when I was still in. Guys with a no shave chit trying to get their bears trimmed and done up so they look good on the weekend. Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Jan 20 at 2023 1:51 PM 2023-01-20T13:51:20-05:00 2023-01-20T13:51:20-05:00 CSM Darieus ZaGara 8093879 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Like every policy the Commander oversees through the use of his identified staff and NCO ‘s within the COC. In this case it starts with the medical necessity required to affect healing and or recovery from this medical condition. <br /><br />Once the medical professionals consult with the Cdr, the Cdr consults with the NCO’s and then the Soldier complies with the guidelines associated. <br /><br />Often the Cdr. does leave the actual process of determining the beards requirements, but as with everything the Cdr. Is the ultimate authority. <br /><br />You sand as if you believe it is up to the Soldier, the Soldiers role is to grace it as indicated, and confer with the medical team as the beard developed. Adjustments can and should be made until the appropriate treatment is determined (just as an adjustment to medication for something else) and is understood and agreed upon by the Command Team. <br /><br />One standout thing is that you mention a gap between the mustache and the lower part of the beard. The Soldier should not be trimming above the mustache unless that is determined to be part of the treatment. Regardless of appearance of the mustache the only thing he should be trimming is to keep a clean line at his lip, not shaven, rather trimmed without shaving, i.e. scissors. Anyway this is not rocket science, Doctor evaluation, patients understanding, unit medical confers with the doctor and the Soldier, Unit medical briefs the appropriate COC as identified by the Co. Soldier complies, reevaluates once beard has grown to standard. Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jan 21 at 2023 8:26 AM 2023-01-21T08:26:35-05:00 2023-01-21T08:26:35-05:00 SMSgt Bob Wilson 8097280 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Let everyone dig their heads out and remember SAFETY. Why clean shaven? Duh?? Gas mask. Anyone ever used on? The seal to the face to keep the bad air out. Hopefully, these one liners ring a bell. APPEARANCE: Some people look great in beards; others look like goats. The regulation should have stated: &quot;Beards should be formed to the face and no thicker than one [1] inch in length. Other than that, let everyone grow a beard. Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Jan 23 at 2023 12:10 PM 2023-01-23T12:10:05-05:00 2023-01-23T12:10:05-05:00 2023-01-20T10:59:50-05:00