New Soldiers and the lack of respect

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 16:10:08 -0500

Why do I see more and more brand new Soldiers coming to the unit with an ungrateful attitude, talking shit to NCOs, disrespecting fellow Soldiers?  

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 4:51 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 16:51:31 -0500

I think it is because they were brought up thinking they were entitled to everything. That is why it seems hard for them to fit in. Because they want everything delivered on a silver platter.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 4:53 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 16:53:39 -0500

double post

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 4:53 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 16:53:40 -0500

That's because NCOs are not setting the tone for them. Just ensuring that a brand new soldier stands in parade rest will let that soldier know that you are in-charge and you mean business. They still don't get it right, counsel and corrective training will be conducted.

I like to kick it old school because respect is earned so it can be given.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 4:58 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 16:58:30 -0500

Just to caveat what the SSG and 1SG said, the reason is because we as NCOs allow it to happen. We as NCOs are becoming lazy. We would rather let the infraction slide than take the time out to do the counseling and present it to the Chain of Command. This needs to stop! Also, the Soldiers must understand that they are no longer "back on the block"! There is a place for the attitude these Soldiers display..it's called "the house".

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 5:14 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 17:14:51 -0500

The power of the NCO and Officer is slowly being taken. Soldiers have no moral compass or pride as they have in the past. In the 1900s-1990s if a MSG yelled at you, you took it in stride and improved.

If a MSG yells at a soldier now, the soldier just goes and files a complaint with Psych or open door policy with the CSM or worse plans retaliation. Kids(and I mean KIDS, because that's how they act dont deserve to be called soldiers) are more devious and hold a grudge instead of having pride in themselves and taking constructive criticism as a means to improve.

You think it is bad now, by the time you hit retirement age, IF we still have an Army, it will be far far worse. By then we will all probably be equals in authority, just getting paid different based on TIS rank will mean nothing but more money.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 6:40 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 18:40:51 -0500

^This is all correct. As a squad leader I had a CoC that did empower their subordinate leaders. The first day of each week I performed an in ranks inspection for my squad (6-9 soldiers),  I made the decision to send my troops home with a half day if they had the best uniform, and could adequately answer any questions I asked about the subject of the week ( I gave out a publication the week before to study). If none of them excelled that week then no one went home. If they didn't prepare at all they were counseled and I was backed by my command on any corrective action I deemed necessary. The last 6 months of my time there my battery got a new 1SG, and my platoon got a new Platoon Sergeant. I continued my weekly inspections and about three weeks in my Platoon Sergeant said that I could no longer do things like that, he said that it was not my call to send my soldiers home. (Keep in mind I always took into account mission first and any soldier I sent home was always on call if they were needed).<div><br></div><div>My point is that even though situations like this might not seem like a big deal, it is things like this that reinforces the power of the NCO. I don;t know if it is a lack of trust or what but something is broken and until it is fixed and power is given back to the lower levels, the indiscipline cannot be truly fixed. (keep in mind that this is just one example, the same could be said of a negative situation).  </div>

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 7:04 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 19:04:10 -0500

Whatever happened to a night in the brig/stockade - reassignment to motivational company?

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 7:44 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 19:44:54 -0500

Simple no more DS in AIT. Within a few short months of Big Army pulling the Round Browns out of AIT, I saw an immediate and noticeable difference in the attitudes of new Soldiers.

Response by 1SG Shane Hansen made Feb 9 at 2014 3:28 AM

1SG Shane Hansen — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 03:28:09 -0500

<p>I think SGT Simpson hit the nail on the head:  because NCOs allow it to happen.  NCOs should hold the Soldiers accountable for their infractions instead of turning a blind eye to the problem because they want to be friends or don't want to do the paperwork.  An NCO cannot be a hypocrite either because they lose credibility.</p><p>Example - correcting a Soldier with sunglasses on top of his head when that NCO has his sunglasses on top of his head.</p><p>Bottom line, discipline is the cornerstone to our military, and without discipline there is chaos.  It is the NCO's responsiblity to instill that discipline in our Soldiers no matter what your MOS or duty position is.</p>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 4:19 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 04:19:17 -0500

Where is this happening!?!?!!?!!!

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 4:30 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 04:30:52 -0500

I'll have 11 years time in service 6 May.... and I have been hearing about new junior enlisted having no respect the entire time. I think old timers always look at the new crew as young and disrespectful!

Also, I'm intrigued that this is a topic brought up by someone approaching 3 years time in service! You're a new soldier!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 4:43 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 04:43:33 -0500

In addition to NCOs in general allowing it to happen, I also believe a lot of it is due in part to the current IET environment. While I can't speak for basic training, having reclassed recently I can definitely speak about AIT. Out of shape, lazy, incompetant AIT PSGs who would rather new soldiers like them than make adhere to any sort of standard. I've said it before but I'll say it again. The current IET atmosphere needs a complete re-haul. 

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 5:52 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 05:52:45 -0500

I feel the main problem is that Soldiers have been able to manipulate resources such as IG, SHARP, and EO the way they see fit. Once upon a time you had to talk with your chain of command before using those resources but now PVT Snuffy can do it on his own. If you look into FM 6-21, you will see that any punishment has to fit the crime committed. How do you motivate a Soldier that isn't motivated or even cognizant of his own surroundings? Take them out back and do react to contact drills until they can't move. Its training and repetitions are no longer a concern.

There are several issues with Joes these days and much of them stem from the fact that they take no personal responsibility for anything. Its always somebody else's fault. Make them be accountable, make them be responsible, make them understand the consequences of their actions. A good Leader can do these things and should. It takes time but the Unit and Army shall reap the rewards if all is done correctly.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 11:09 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 11:09:02 -0500

I believe there are a lot of things that the Army has changed for the better and a lot that should have stayed the same. On the respect angle there are a lot of NCO's living in the "Old Army" mentality where they believe respect only flows one way and that's "UP". But respect is a "360 Degree" platform that everyone should be standing on as equals. Also the new soldiers need to realize that the world does not owe them anything and that like the rest of us they need to work for everything they get so that they can feel that same great accomplishment that we have all felt.

P.S. Thank you to all of you who are serving and have served. Also any and all your comments and advice is appreciated.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 3:36 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 15:36:06 -0500

hmmmm,

This comes up quite often. So i have a question for you SPC, what do you do to encourage your peers to act appropriately?

As an NCO i do encounter those soldiers who are, for a lack of a better word, a hassle to deal with. However, saying that, those i've trained and earned respect with (the good respect) often jump into the misunderstood soldier before i even need to. Could i go back to the pre 9/11 way of thinking and start "corrective training" and making life awfully painful for everybody. Sure, but the army now teaches critical thinking and developing different ways to address issues. Maybe you could look at these soldiers as a leadership challenge for when you become part of the backbone.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 9:06 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 21:06:39 -0500

if the new Soldiers went from Basic to AIT and were already accustomed to getting dropped or smoked then they would have no idea what to consider hazing... if they had to work hard in AIT to stand out to the DS (who only sees a bunch of privates, all equal, no one different or special) then they would come to the units more prepared to work hard to stand out...

if the NCO would lock the Soldiers up and identify clear lines, then the Soldiers wouldn't push the limits. If you play around with your Soldiers- don't get upset when they start crossing lines with you... your bad.

if the Leadership would stop pushing this "family" work environment and enforce a business mentality then maybe the junior leaders won't have such an issue of telling their little "brothers" to do stuff.... which means the junior leaders need to make clear lines for the Soldiers which the Soldiers are used to because thats how they were brought up by the DSs.

make sense?

Response by SrA Michael Waldo made Feb 9 at 2014 9:31 PM

SrA Michael Waldo — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 21:31:49 -0500

This is essentially the same question as "Why are kids becoming so unruly and ignorant." Each generation is shaped by the generation proceeding it. I was raised by my grandfather for the most part. He was a combat vet of WWII with tours in the pacific, and the eldest of 16 children, from a rural area of West Virginia that probably still doesn't have a name. He taught me to appreciate everything I had, make use of everything (He was the original "MacGyver"), do what your elders tell you to do unless you have a suggestion as to a better way of doing it (and it had better be feasible), learn everything you can about any and everything (knowledge is free and is the greatest weapon one can have in their arsenal, never take that for granted), and treat others the way you want to be treated (99% of the time you won't get the respect in return that you give, but it shouldn't thwart you from being a decent human being). This didn't pan out well for me growing up in Orlando, FL where I was surrounded with nothing but over indulgent, ignorant, spoiled brats. But I would rather be an outcast for being courteous and respectful than join the masses of undeserving sociopaths.

The current generation of NCO's are usually around my age group with different upbringings. Apathy and a rude demeanor is just becoming the norm among the populous. My buddies always tell me how shitty their troops are and how too can't fathom how kids could get even more out of control. You can place blame on their upbringing, their influences, or both. Either way, even if the next generation was to become polar opposites in demeanor, my generation will condescend them for being "weenys" for showing empathy, compassion, and respecting their elders and peers. The only option is to lead by example. NCO's aren't supposed to keep a boot in the ass of all the lower ranks; the E-4's are supposed to keep order among the E-3's and so on and so forth. It's the duty of the E-4 nowadays to take the brunt of a verbal assault and knife hand from the NCO's. In return, you should accept the responsibility for the ineptitude of your peers and if you're not a jackass or a shit bag; the lower ranks will take notice that you man up and take your lashings in stride; while remaining composed, disciplined, and rife with integrity. And those capable of thinking critically will follow the leader. The shit bags will probably get promoted meritoriously for something they didn't do, but....fuck 'em haha.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 2:11 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 14:11:01 -0500

I think it all comes down to standards. In many ways, standards have phased out over the past decade or so since the beginning of the GWOT. In fact, I believe that much of this out phasing if you will, is due to policy set forth by leadership at the strategic level. It began with lowering the bar, as has been traditional in the time of war. Here, we let anyone in willing to serve. Next, over the years, I've heard many leaders state that for those who are willing to serve in their country's time of need (since 9/11) a demonstrated level of respect is owed. This ideal somehow translated into more privileges and fewer hardships during IET and in the first few years of service.

Next, you have a generation that was raised where everyone get's a trophy. My son's last place baseball team one year handed out trophies to the kids, no kidding. It boosted their spirits, but taught them nothing about the real world.

Combine these ideals and occurrences with our current media-crazed global visibility, our increased political correctness due to advancing ideals of the 'profession of arms' and the decrease in time leaders actually have to spend with subordinates due to the multitude of required 'on-line' training and 75 page counseling packets (before a single session has been conducted) and you get the new generation of entitlement and self-righteous, over-protected, and over-privileged Soldiers. Sorry about the rant.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Feb 10 at 2014 3:52 PM

1SG Michael Blount — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 15:52:54 -0500

I am Old School enough to know respect is earned. I DEMAND it from my BCT Privates and Drill Sergeants. And I usually get what I want. I believe it was Machiavelli who said the occasional use of terrorism is an effective management tool. In the context of BCT, the frequent use of PT serves the same purpose.

I believe Privates learn LACK of respect starting at home, then escalate that crap until their own parents don't want them and hope the Army fixes it at BCT. We have 10 weeks to unclog years of learned behavior - doesn't always work. Best we can do is to hope the Privates leave BCT thinking they want to grow up and be just like their Drill Sergeant.

Response by 1SG Alan Bailey made Feb 10 at 2014 4:41 PM

1SG Alan Bailey — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 16:41:22 -0500

WOW, This was a good topic, But, I think the number one problem is the NCO CORP! we do not want to take the time to counsel Soldiers from the day we get them till the time we start seeing problems with the Soldier. We and I say we because I am a proud member of the NCO CORP and hate the direction that it is headed. We owe it to every Soldier and NCO that we are accountable for to counsel them, and to make sure we let them know what we expect and what they can expect if they meet our intentions or if they don't. But we are on here saying it is the lack of DS in AIT and lack of home training, instead of excepting the responsibilty we inherited when put the stripes on and wanted to be NCOs. So I think the first stop we need to make is at the mirror and see if we are setting the standard and are we enforcing the policies and standards set for us.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 6:19 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 18:19:45 -0500

Simply because their leadership allows it. Soldiers are a direct reflection of their leadership. Don't be one of the Soldiers that is quick to throw the NCO Corp under the bus as the only ones who set standards and make corrections. You as a Specialist will have great influence over the way the lower ranking Soldiers in your unit act and present themselves. Soldiers need to police each other up and correct one another there may not always be an NCO around. Leading Soldiers doesn't start the day you pin on stripes.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 8:47 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 20:47:40 -0500

I was easy-going but if you pushed me, I would let you know what time it was. Likewise I showed that same respect to my peers and my leaders. This kind of thing becomes ingrained and this aspect appeals to everyone.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Feb 11 at 2014 3:00 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 03:00:08 -0500

Smoke them into submission. Wow, I got a thumbs down. Let the butt hurt start time now.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2014 6:19 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 06:19:49 -0500

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority;
they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children
are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when
elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company,
gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Socrates

This isn't a NEW view of the 'next' generation. This view has been around since atleast 400 BC. It is how leaders approach and handle this behavior that will truly mold this generation of Soldiers.

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Feb 11 at 2014 10:28 AM

SPC Christopher Smith — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 10:28:11 -0500

I've said this in previous post, the D.o.D wants intelligent, and more capable people in the force. The problem is these type of people have a high sense of self pride, and low tolerance for inefficiency. These type of people do not like being micro managed, and have difficulties with unjustified trust. They have grown up thinking it is them vs. the world, and that is a hard ideal to break.

What many people are taking as disrespect is a knee jerk reaction to an enviroment that is filled with inefficiencies, and having to trust that others will do for you. When they feel as though you are not doing for them they want to do it for themselves.

Also, respect is earned not given, always remember people might have to follow you, but they don't have to respect you or your method, they just have to get things done. Mentoring, and explaining the process, allow people to explore their way of doing things, and teach them after they fail why they failed, so they understand why you have a certain method, but on the other hand be open to changing your method and rewarding them when they create a better system.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2014 1:54 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 13:54:05 -0500

SPC Nguyen,

I think that there has been a culture change in the military. I will only speak on the Army since it is the only branch of service in which I have expanded knowledge. Not only has there been a change in the Armed services culture but there has been a change in the culture of the country as a whole. Because of this culture shift we are seeing Soldiers entering the military feeling as though they are owed something. The values that were instilled in the generations before are not the same as the values instilled in today's generation. I've been in the Army for some time now and there have always been people who should have never joined the military. The difference between now and then were the leaders and their ability to motivate, teach coach and mentor younger Soldiers to change their attitudes and be better Soldiers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2014 3:56 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 03:56:35 -0500

The issue is two fold. One Soldiers (Commissioned & Enlisted) who initially enter our Profession have not been trained enough to accept authority. There is a general lack of respect for authoritative figures in the United States. Some Soldiers want "big boy" rules like Special Ops but perform at children levels.

The second part in this dilemma is leadership. I talk to everyone with respect. I am usually easy going; however, if there is a line crossed (rarely) but it's corrected. Leadership must enforce standards, must align those individual goals into organizational goals. Finally, leaders must learn to stop operating at the bottom of the leadership pole "positional leadership." Leaders must understand rank is the last method of influence used to control your subordinates. A leader once explained this theory to me in the best way. Rank is like concealed weapons in a fight when it comes to conflicts with subordinates. if I out rank you I'm holding the gun and you have a knife. What are you going to do shoot them? How about explain to them, you may want to put the weapon down because it's not going to end well for you. You already hold the upper hand, no need to walk around with your chest poked out.

In summary, Soldiers must learn to be professional at all times. Leaders must use proper influence methods to correct undesirable behavior.

Response by CPT Mike M. made Feb 12 at 2014 7:53 AM

CPT Mike M. — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 07:53:04 -0500

Escallation of force.

On the spot correction

corrective training

counseling

higher counseling

Co grade Art. 15

FG Art. 15

It's a long process but if some people are too thick headed to learn, then there are ways of removing them from service without them ever doing anything drastic. It falls under patterns of misconduct but you've got to get a solid paper trail to show that every effort was made to retrain the individual.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2014 11:39 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:39:17 -0500

I respect every NCO I come across however, the number of those who have actually earned the respect are few and far between. In my line of work we do not use a lot of the BIG ARMY parade rest (unless a formal situation) talking to an NCO or anything else. We work so closely and in the same position of work that it would become tedious to do so. But that from an outsiders perspective would be seen as disrespectful when in fact it is not.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2014 3:41 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 15:41:36 -0500

I do not tolerate it. Never have, and never will. I was brought up from a private to SGT from 1984 to 1990. I was taught by NCO's who took pride in being such. They were not about to let me, nor any other lower enlisted, be disrespectful. When I was promoted to SPEC-4 (we still had some SPEC-5s hanging around) I was told that I was 'an NCO in training'. I was to conduct myself as such, and execute the authority given to me by Uncle Sam. They coached and mentored me into becoming a leader who would coach, mentor and counsel. After a 19 year break in service, I can say from first hand experience, there has been a slight decline in our NCO corps. We need to keep each other honest, and make sure we are enforcing standards uniformly, within our command structure. My soldiers call me 'old' and 'old school' (always in a respectful manner). They know what I expect, and know that the little green whistle will come out for some quick and decisive corrective action should they exhibit conduct unbecoming a soldier in our beloved army. As a reservist, it seems like "Ground Hogs Day" at times. Usually after our PT formation, which is something they had to get used to, they're in the groove. The best advice I've ever had was to "Live by the four C's Miozzi. Courage, Competence, Candor and Commitment. You'll never go wrong." 'Competence is my watchword'. Carry on.

Response by SSG Shannon Howe made Feb 12 at 2014 4:04 PM

SSG Shannon Howe — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 16:04:22 -0500

1. This topic, to me, is a dead horse and has been over-beaten and over-kicked for years. (I used to be on AKO forums and it came up ALL. THE. TIME. Just saying.) Honestly, each older generation likes to blame the newer one for being "softer/weaker" and loves to reminisce about the "good ole days." The same thing happens in the civilian sector.

2. Just like with personal relationships, in professional relationships, people will only do what you allow them to. Thus, if Soldiers are disrespecting their leadership, it is because it is being/has been tolerated by someone, somewhere. Many will blame this on the fact that "smoking" Soldiers is no longer acceptable, and perhaps in some cases, it is. I personally blame it on leaders that either don't care enough, or are too lazy, or not creative enough, to come up with appropriate and effective corrective training. Screaming at a PVT to "push until I'm tired" is easy and doesn't take a whole lot of thought or effort. It also isn't a guaranteed "fix" for every situation...each Soldier is different and as leaders we have to be creative and flexible enough to adjust fire in our leadership styles. Also, we have to be able to think outside the box enough to know that many times, bad behavior is a sign that something is wrong in the Soldier's personal life. We must be able to set aside our frustration long enough to take a time-out, sit down and ask the Soldier, "what's going on with you? This behavior is not like you..." Again, each Soldier and situation is different, so adjust accordingly.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2014 11:09 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 11:09:25 -0500

Basic training has been watered down. I break my neck to fix these kids into Soldiers, however my hands are tied. Personally, I believe in Schofields definition of discipline, where you do not have to be a ruthless disciplinarian. Instead give new Soldiers an example of what they should become. After exhausting every resource to rehabilitate a Soldier, begin separation. Additionally, when the Privates report to their first unit some folks DO NOT enforce any sort of discipline. That's going to change when I return to FORSCOM and get a platoon.

Response by SGT Jorge Chacon made Mar 12 at 2014 12:05 AM

SGT Jorge Chacon — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 00:05:04 -0400

I have heard from friends who are still in that this is a big issue. I don't know if there is an issue at the basic training/AIT stage or what. I know that when I was a young soldier, that sort of stuff was unheard of. It was instilled in me and I instilled it into my soldiers.
So are young troopers getting promoted at a fast rate? Have they not been given an opportunity to be put in a leadership role before pinning those SGT stripes on? I just hope that there are enough of us old soldiers who can snap these new soldiers back in line.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Mar 12 at 2014 8:14 AM

1SG Michael Blount — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 08:14:05 -0400

SPC - rest assured I don't tolerate ANY kind of disrespect from my BCT/IET Soldiers toward me or my DS cadre. The sad truth is some BCT/IET units don't care as long as they graduate the numbers command wants. I pray every day that with all these drawdowns, the Army gets more selective in the caliber of personnel coming aboard. Usually that translates into more mature people entering Basic. Unfortunately, that does nothing for the infestation of trash we inherited and graduated for reasons cited earlier. THAT problem gets rooted out, one incident at a time. If I catch it (and I do, believe me), that Soldier is court martialed under every Article I can think of, plus a few that haven't been written yet.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2014 8:17 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Mar 2014 20:17:57 -0400

Counseling,
Counseling, Counseling! Usually, first verbal then written then UCMJ. I have witnessed the goodness in it. It holds
them accountable, either they fix themselves or process UCMJ and or
separation. Now, if you know a "Sergeant" (Not an NCO) who
whines about their Soldier's and is too lazy to counsel them, that
"Sergeant" needs counseling and mentorship.
Additionally, you will need the support of the Chain of Command to be
successful cleaning your organization. Believe me, when a Joker finds
out their G.I. Bill is at stake, they tend to clean up. Lot's of paperwork to get in the Army, lot's of paperwork to get out, no going around it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2014 8:00 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:00:44 -0400

I disagree with the fact the NCO's allow it to happen. I myself do my best to lead from the front, and expect nothing less than the standard from my soldiers. That being said, I have witnessed first hand junior enlisted completely disregarding what they have been told just out of pure spite. When their NCO was correcting them, a 1SG approached him and told him he was being unprofessional, and that he needed to put it on paper. The said NCO was not smoking his soldier, he was merely giving him a well deserved lecture on his infraction. At that point in time I realized more than ever that the power had been taken away from the NCO and given to the lower enlisted. When a NCO cannot verbally counsel his soldier or, for lack of better words, put the fear of God into them when the need arises, then something is dead wrong. Putting events on paper is not always the answer. Some soldiers respond to that, and will fix their mistake, but not all. Some soldier respond to more direct measures. Are we to negatively counsel them every time, and eventually chapter them out of the army, when we could of taken different measures that they would of reacted to, to help them develop more as a soldier? Something needs to give here, or else this army is in serious trouble.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2014 2:29 AM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Jun 2014 02:29:51 -0400

This is a great topic and has been a hot topic. It is not just in the military but society in general. But as a whole the military has become much to "politically correct". A lot of leaders are afraid of their troops or afraid to correct their troops. A service member gets corrected for something and they get butt hurt so they file a complaint and get their buddies to file a complaint and now the Command Triad is getting relieved for a "poor command climate". There is the general sense of entitlement with the current generation, and it is truly a generational norm.

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Oct 23 at 2014 6:35 PM

SPC James Mcneil — Thu, 23 Oct 2014 18:35:42 -0400

I wish I could say this is a new thing, but it isn't. I have seen many new soldiers coming out of AIT with attitudes like they've got all the answers.

Response by SSG Maurice P. made Oct 25 at 2014 9:46 PM

SSG Maurice P. — Sat, 25 Oct 2014 21:46:23 -0400

BECAUSE THE ARMY DOESNT FROM THE VERY 1ST SECOND THAT HE SEE'S A DRILL SERGEANT
PUT HIM IN A SHELL SHOCKED STATE LIKE THE MARINE CORPS DOES...................................
HE ISNT SCREAMED AT OR HIT OR HARASSED HE IS A GENTLER KINDER KIND OF PERSON WHO KNOWS NO COLLECTIVE OR SELF DISCIPLINE................SO WHEN HE SEE'S AN N.C.O HE THINKS HE'S AS GOOD AS HIM AND BETTER THAN HIS PEERS..........ARMY START KICKIN ASS TAKING NAMES AND FORGETTING POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.............................

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 11:01 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:01:50 -0500

In my opinion, the lack of discipline is due to us the NCO are not enforcing the standards or afraid to enforce them. Discipline is a very important aspect in our profession. Without discipline we don't an Army. We as leader, need to step up and enforce the standards, simple as that. Some are afraid of the repercussions of being called a toxic leaders or afraid to get an IG complaint etc. The NCO Creed start with "No one is more professional than I". We need to be professionals when enforcing the standards. And like I stated before " if you want to find discipline, give discipline and you will find discipline". Soldiers do what we tell them to do, no the other way around.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 11:34 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 11:34:16 -0500

the reason is two fold. NCOs let it happen and some just don't earn the respect or they lose the respect. Respect for the man and respect for the rank are two different viewpoints. I came In at 27 and I have been a leader and seen leaders. What a lot of folks don't get is that if we're all adults you can't expect blind respect when you haven't earned it. Yes you got the rank buy in the same breath what have you done for this soldier to show them that you deserved it or lived up to it. Folks get promoted all the time and have no clue about their mos or how to actually lead. A class can never teach leadership it is a quality in man that is natural.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Mar 16 at 2016 6:03 PM

Capt Mark Strobl — Wed, 16 Mar 2016 18:03:38 -0400

The process of molding a heap of civilian clay into something the Department of Defense can call a basic soldier/airman/sailor/Marine starts at those yellow footprints at the receiving depot. Graduation from boot camp is really the start of the process --the molding continues well beyond that pass & review. Are they instilled with the same values, traditions, and discipline that forge the volumes of sea-stories defining "how rough it was?" Probably not. This isn't a review of the quality of work that their DI's did. Rather, it's a statement of how our society has migrated in their own views of success, integrity, and all the intangibles required of a good citizen (and how these values are reflected in "today's Army"). How would these kids measure up to those who have passed before? Well, I submit that I'm just as proud to call myself a veteran because of, not only those with whom I have served, but because these kids are continuing to carry our colors. This "next generation" is going to be different... just as we were defined by those who preceded us.

Good question, SFC Private RallyPoint Member!