No CAR, no respect: The push to end the ribbon rack divide (Your thoughts?)

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Mon, 30 Mar 2015 18:18:09 -0400

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/03/30/cult-of-combat-action-ribbon-has-it-gone-too-far/70488570/

From the Marine Corps Times. Appeared on my feed, and thought it was worth sharing. Your thoughts appreciated.

- Full Disclosure: I do not have a CAR. Deployed to the Middle East twice during the Ceasefire. Got out before OIF/OEF were fully engaged. Was tagged for recruiting duty so likely would not have been deployed had I reenlisted.

Full story:

Master Sgt. Orlando Reyes was taken aback when he was ridiculed on social media for not having a Combat Action Ribbon after being named the 2014 Military Times' Marine of the Year.

While Reyes, a logistician, had three deployments to Iraq under his belt, his duties had never put him in a position to participate in a combat engagement.

"I didn't expect it to go so far," Reyes said of the criticism he experienced. "In today's era of social media and anonymity of computer posts, people are going to say what they want and there's no repercussions. They think, because of the rack of someone's chest, they have insight into that individual."

The growing discord surrounding Combat Action Ribbons — the award issued by the sea services for active participation in ground or surface combat — is troubling some leaders.

The online criticism illustrates an increasingly vocal perspective among Marines, especially those in the ground combat community. This perspective holds that a Marines' worth and authenticity is closely connected to combat experience, and that those who lack this experience are less deserving of respect.

In some ways, this viewpoint is a natural outgrowth of 14 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan. But Commandant Gen. Joseph Dunford is making it clear that he has no patience for it.

"The coin of the realm is the eagle, globe and anchor," Dunford told Marine Corps Times in a February interview. "It doesn't matter what [military occupational specialty] you have, it doesn't matter what deployments you've been on, it doesn't matter what ribbons are on your chest — it's about being a Marine."

'Stacking each other up'

When Dunford named Sgt. Maj. Ronald Green as his senior enlisted adviser in January, most Marines expressed interest in his background and the reputation he'd built as a thoughtful and involved leader. But a loud minority couldn't get past the stack of ribbons on his chest.

Green, a career artilleryman, did not have a Combat Action Ribbon.

"No CAR ... not the right guy for the job," one reader groused on Marine Corps Times' Facebook page following Green's selection. Others complained that the newly chosen sergeant major of the Marine Corps didn't measure up to other senior leaders who had earned combat valor awards.

Green took the comments in stride.

"We don't go around counting one another's ribbons, and, you know, kind of stacking each other up," he told Marine Corps Times. "We're actually too busy to do that."

When a Marine is tested in combat, Dunford said, how he or she performs is important. But, he added, the same can be said for every task and field to which Marines are assigned.

"Most Marines don't pick their MOS," he said. "Most of us do things that the Marine Corps tells us to do. And it really is about the quality of your performance in the task that you've been assigned that's most important, once you wear the eagle, globe and anchor. And that's how I'm going to approach this issue."

These comments from Dunford, a decorated infantry officer, represents a rebuke to the grunt-centric culture that glorifies combat experience above all else. What remains to be seen, though, is whether the commandant's message is enough to change the culture — or if only time can do that.

Green isn't the only Marine leader to face criticism for lack of a Combat Action Ribbon. Now-retired Gen. James Amos, the 35th commandant and the first from the aviation community, received so much heat online for his lack of a CAR that an aide once jumped into the fray to defend him.

"[Amos] has been in many a fight ... probably killed more enemy with his F-18 than any single company of grunts," the staffer wrote in a Facebook posting before thinking better of it and deleting the comment.

The division is a relatively new challenge for the Corps.

The Combat Action Ribbon did not even exist until February 1969, when the Navy and Marine Corps adopted it in the midst of the Vietnam War. It was retroactively applied to combat engagements stretching back to 1961, and later extended to cover combat dating from the December 7, 1941, Pearl Harbor attack that marked the U.S. entrance into World War II. The Coast Guard would adopt the Combat Action Ribbon much later, in 2008.

Marines evacuate the area as an MV-22B Osprey lands
Marines evacuate the area as an MV-22B Osprey lands in Thailand during during Exercise Cobra Gold 2014. There is a divide between some Marines who believe combat experience trumps all, and those who feel it should be respected, not revered. (Photo: Cpl. Zachary Scanlon/Marine Corps)
And prior to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Combat Action Ribbons were a rare sight rather than an expected one.

Andrew Northam, a Marine infantry veteran who served from 1990 to 1994, recalled the reverence that surrounded the CAR during that largely peacetime period.

"[CAR recipients] were more revered when I was in," Northam said. "A guy had three Combat Action Ribbons in my unit and he was like a god to us."

Because there were so few opportunities to earn a CAR, he said, they weren't treated like a badge of authenticity. And combat experience wasn't seen as a rite of passage among Marines, as it sometimes is today.

Northam, who deployed to Somalia in late 1993 to support Operation Support Hope, earned a Combat Action Ribbon there, but did not receive it until years later when it was retroactively authorized after he had left the service.

Receiving the award, even late, made Northam realize its significance as a recognition of what he experienced.

"When we looked back on our experience in Somalia, we always thought we should have gotten it; we felt a little robbed by that," he said. "We were taking mortar fire, in an offensive posture. It was a little bit of vindication having that."

Still, Northam believes the hype surrounding the ribbon has gone too far. When news of Green's selection as the Corps' top enlisted leader broke, Northam fired back at Green's critics on the blog USMCLife, calling the belief that senior leaders needed to sport a CAR "fanatical."

"Marines do not get to choose their duty stations; you go where you are assigned," Northam wrote. "As we wind down our nation's longest period at war, the Corps is facing many challenges; two of the biggest are dealing with the overall military drawdown and more importantly, dealing with returning vets and [post-traumatic stress]. Can [Green] conceivably do this without that precious ribbon? I believe so."

An imperfect award

Even today, following a decade and a half of war in two theaters, Combat Action Ribbons are less common than some perceive them to be. According to Marine Corps Manpower and Reserve Affairs, only 20,855 of the 184,567 Marines currently on active duty boast at least one CAR.

With combat arms fields — including infantry, artillery and mechanized units — making up roughly 22 percent of the active-duty force, that means less than half of active Marines in combat arms rate the award. That figure is likely to keep dwindling as wartime deployments are replaced with training, humanitarian and crisis response missions.

Logan Stark's Marine Corps experience was in many ways different from Northam's. He enlisted in 2007, as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were in full swing.

An infantry assaultman, Stark was surrounded by Marines who had already deployed and earned their Combat Action Ribbon. There was definite pressure, he said, to join their ranks.

"When I was a boot, there was the whole concept of, 'you aint sh-- until you got your Combat Action Ribbon," Stark said. "When you're coming up in the fleet, especially the time that I was in, you felt like that was a requirement of being an infantryman in the Marine Corps. It became something that you strived for, that you needed to be that complete Marine."

But there was a dark side to the CAR obsession, Stark soon realized. While deployed to Afghanistan's Sangin valley in 2010 and 2011, Stark said he encountered Marines who would insert themselves into patrols they didn't belong on, just so they could earn their Combat Action Ribbon. The experience altered the way he viewed the award.

"Is it a badge of honor and do I wear it with pride? Yes," said Stark, now a filmmaker and writer for the website Funker350. "But it only holds so much weight. I don't think we should judge people based on whether or not they have it. For some reason, we want to use these really easily identified symbols ... When did we get away from getting to know a person and getting to know their background before judging them?"

Stark said he hopes the Marine Corps will find a balance in which combat experience is honored, but viewed with perspective.

"I want to hear about a person's experiences; I want to learn from their combat," he said. "It shouldn't be a pedestal thing; it should be a way to learn from each other."

Reyes, the master sergeant, said he also observed Marines going out of their way to get a CAR during his deployments to Iraq. The trend wasn't limited to junior Marines, he said; he saw troops that were senior to him finagle their way onto convoys and other missions outside the wire to earn the coveted award. When they did, Reyes said it wasn't only unnecessary, but dangerous.

Now assigned to School of Infantry-East out of Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, Reyes said he encourages junior Marines to value their comrades' character and leadership qualities more than their ribbon stacks.

"We get so bent out of shape with these ribbons and awards that we sacrifice the most important thing to us as Marines: our integrity," he said.

No CAR, no respect: The push to end the ribbon rack divide

When Marine Corps commandant Gen. Joseph Dunford named Sgt. Maj. Ronald Green as his senior enlisted adviser in January, most Marines expressed

Response by SGT James Elphick made Mar 30 at 2015 6:31 PM

SGT James Elphick — Mon, 30 Mar 2015 18:31:37 -0400

After 14 years of war I would be more concerned about someone having been in that whole time and not getting deployed. I initially felt the same way about the Army's Combat Infantryman Badge but once I saw that it was simply handed out in many situations (especially early on when no one thought there would be another chance) I let it slide and realized it was about the individual person and their experiences. I also think that with the wars winding down there will be a return to the reverence of the CAR as they will become rarer, and in a way, it might be a good thing.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Mar 30 at 2015 6:43 PM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Mon, 30 Mar 2015 18:43:56 -0400

Perhaps the more accurate measure for Marines is the Sea Service Deployment Ribbon (I have 4, as not all my operations got one)... Since many folks deployed and served with distinction, but didn't qualify for the CAR for one reason or another. Gen. Amos is a perfect example. If you look at his Air Medals and DFCs you'll see quite the story, along with his SSDR, even though he never got the CAR...

Ditto the Army, it used to be that only Infantry got recognition - hence the CIB and it's vaulted status. But now they have the CAB, which is roughly equivalent to the CAR, and more people get it... Does that make people better or worse?

Response by Sgt Daniel Albrecht made Mar 30 at 2015 9:12 PM

Sgt Daniel Albrecht — Mon, 30 Mar 2015 21:12:25 -0400

I had a staff Sargent get his car for being 1 mile a way when I hit an ied. No one else in the convoy (except my truck) got one. I am an infantry marine and that's all I need.

Response by Cpl Tou Lee Yang made Mar 30 at 2015 9:25 PM

Cpl Tou Lee Yang — Mon, 30 Mar 2015 21:25:35 -0400

Most of you being Marines should understand that most Marines view and scrutinized other Marines about the medals and ribbon on their chest. It's a philosophy instilled in every Marines during bootcamp, beginning with this cadence, "if I die in a combat zone, box me up and send me home. Pin my MEDALS upon my chest, tell my momma I did my best". Additionally, Marine Corps is the stingiest military service when it comes to giving out medals. You'll be lucky to get a GCM in your first enlistment.

Unlike the Army and Air Force where they give out ribbon like candy. The Navy has to give out medals after every deployment and I've seen someone received a Navy Achievement Medal just by pointing at a box of junk and his write up was he supposedly "assisted in the rebuilding of an electronic machine vital to the mission", while the person that actually fixed the machine got a pat on the back.

So I can see why so many people would scrutinized the SgtMaj of the Marines Corps about his ribbon. He's someone you look up to in awe because of his position and that position requires a great deal of respect. Nothing spells respect in the Marines Corps than a rack of ribbons, especially combat related ribbons.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2015 9:45 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Mar 2015 21:45:06 -0400

Okay is this a huge deal? Being Air Force and a aircraft mechanic not trackin.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Mar 30 at 2015 11:06 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Mon, 30 Mar 2015 23:06:13 -0400

I seem to remember a similar conversation started by Sgt Matthew Johnson. I replied there. Short version: Marines join the Corps to fight. The CAR outwardly demonstrates a Marine has fulfilled this existential goal. It would be unnatural for us to not reckon it in sizing each other up.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Mar 31 at 2015 12:22 AM

LTC Jason Mackay — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 00:22:32 -0400

Not Seeing this in the Army between SSI-FWTS and CAB/CMB/CIB. As the commitment in Afghanistan winds down, and things in Iraq appear to be in a squat and hold status, natural attrition is cycling out those who have deployed. Seeing less and less of SSI-FWTS on junior soldiers and officers. Senior and mid grade NCOs and Officers are the only ones with them. It happened like this after Just Cause and ODS (which I missed because I was still in school).
- I think people get it and see the cycle and the tyranny of the patch chart.
- young guys still want the deploy, danger, adventure experience because they don't have it. Opportunities to do so are shrinking.
- I am seeing about an even split in a formation between have and have not.
- I am sure there are those who worked some skullduggery to evade, but they are the ones who have to live with it. There are others that just couldn't (Chinese Linguist?)
- we are also doing more operational deployments that are not eligible for SSI-FWTS nor CAB/CMB/CIB

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 31 at 2015 12:37 AM

COL Charles Williams — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 00:37:32 -0400

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS I understand the issue, and emotion... No service, I believe, pays more attention to your patches, tabs, badges, right sleeve patches and awards than the Army. Since 911, the issue in the Army has been the Combat Action Badge (CAB) and the Bronze Star. So, I understand the issue and the emotion. That said, I am inclined to Commandant picked the best qualified Senior NCO to lead the Marines with him.

Response by TSgt David Holman made Mar 31 at 2015 1:52 AM

TSgt David Holman — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 01:52:06 -0400

There are those who have jobs that might never lead them into combat... it shouldn't lessen the importance of their sacrifices.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2015 8:39 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 08:39:31 -0400

This is something separates leaders and heroes. So many times we see guys like Dan Daly or Chesty Puller as the Heroes of the Corps. It is hard to reach such esteem from your peers when you were not in combat.

This is much the same way in the Army in many facets. In the Army if you want to be recognized as being a great soldier you are expected to have served in combat. If you were in during the past two wars and never went it would really question your effective when everyone else was tested by going to combat.

In the Army infantry we have the same situation with the coveted Ranger Tab. If you are an infantry officer without a Ranger Tab you will not be viewed in the same light as one with. You will not get the good assignments or promote as fast. There is just an expectation of commitment getting one that separates you.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2015 9:04 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:04:07 -0400

Duty first, recommendations, promotion and ribbons come after. If you don’t get anything while in service, as a Services Member you should be ok with that. If anybody joins the Armed Forces for ribbons and accolades, you misunderstood the whole purpose of serving your country. My focus is to train and develop Soldiers that will be effective not only in combat but regular daily operations. If they don’t see combat, I cannot be blame for that. So, if you have allot of ribbons, where everything with pride. Don’t worry about what nobody thinks about you. Be proud of your services and who you have become. my opinion

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2015 10:54 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 10:54:15 -0400

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS Thanks for your service. No disclosure necessary.

These discussion distress me, whether it is the Ranger Tab, Combat Infantryman Badges et al. You enlist or are commissioned. You are assigned to a specialty. You do your job. We complain too much about why not me -- why isn't there a badge for me stuff -- until it's time to earn it. On the other hand, there are those that think having been awarded one of this accouterments makes you able to judge others. Both approaches are bad, divisive and not trying to be dramatic, absolutely part of the equation as to how we have 22 brothers and sisters a day see no value in their lives.

When one is given one of these awards, they, as the recipient assigns a value to it. Maybe it represents some really hard fighting. Maybe it represents service that technically qualified, but they may not feel that they earned it "enough" (whatever that might mean).

Those that do not receive this recognition should make an assumption that is what it is, recognition for meeting the minimum criteria for the award -- combat service in certain conditions against certain enemy actions. Ideally, no more inference is necessary, helpful or required.

Those that do not have these awards should be thanked for their service just as well. And if this stuff really matter to someone, look at the other awards to see where one could be given praise as opposed to criticism.

This is why I never liked wearing dress uniforms or any badges, medals etc. I used to pick and choose what I wore. Thankfully, my first First Sergeant told me once that the medals I wear should be treated as a privilege, for we had two brothers who also earned them with the ultimate sacrifice, and were never able to wear any of them, if only for a day.

I've worn them all whenever an event called for it. And I will be glad to stand side by side with you against anyone who wants to state that because you don't have "X", your service wasn't as good as theirs.

We must focus on the positives of our service and those things that we can be positive about (like the recruiter badge or similar). If we remain so judgemental about ourselves, how can we expect the larger population to ever accept and appreciate fully all of our service.

Thank you again, Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS. Great thread. Great service.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 31 at 2015 11:07 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 11:07:25 -0400

Good thing I got mine =o)

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made Mar 31 at 2015 11:29 AM

SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 11:29:41 -0400

The military has always discriminated in favor of combat experience. Anyone that wants to get anywhere besides sideways has to have the "combat" check-off on the records. I believe that this is one of the driving forces behind women getting into the combat arms or fighter pilot slots. The more you have (Airborne, Ranger, CAB / CAR) the better you look to the promotion review board. This is the military equivalent of the glass-ceiling in business.

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Mar 31 at 2015 12:20 PM

Sgt Adam Jennings — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 12:20:37 -0400

This discussion came up on Facebook afew days ago as well. Here is my take on it, this is exactly what I posted on that discussion.

I have two trains of thought on this.

1) The CAR is indeed special and shouldn't just be handed out because "you were attached to a unit that took fire". I do believe that the way it is awarded should be tightened up to ensure crap like that doesn't happen.

2) I believe that ridiculing Marines that don't have one is also shameful. My grandfather earned his Combat Infantry Badge the hard way in WWII, 180 days of straight combat and no relief. He never once ridiculed a fellow veteran that didn't have a CIB. He also taught me that yes, he was proud to have been a grunt. But he also made sure that I knew that his grunts (he was a SSgt) couldn't have gotten their job done with out REMFS, or POGS as we are now called.

If you got a CAR for legitimate reasons, then man I applaud you, and respect the crap you went through to earn that award. But the moment you belittle a Marine because he/she never had the "opportunity" to earn one, that respect flies right out the window. I'm the first to admit when I meet other veterans that I'm a POG, I also don't try to BS them that I did anything special nor am I ashamed that I don't have a CAR. Why would I have one, I was a comm tech that wasn't even allowed to be on a QRF because of my technical field. But that was the agreement between my wife and I before I enlisted, no combat related MOS. But I chose to be a Marine because they are the best, regardless of Grunt or POG status.

End of pointless soap box rant. You may wake up now.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Mar 31 at 2015 1:10 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 13:10:59 -0400

I'm going to echo a lot of what has already been said. There is a huge difference in those people that count their self-worth to the military by the number of ribbons they stack on their chest and then there are those of us that served honorably and did our job. We didn't do our jobs in the hopes of receiving some piece of cloth wrapped around a small piece of medal; we did our jobs to help those around us. To this day, I'm proud of my service; I am thankful everyday to have had the chance to stand along side some true heroes a count them as my friends. But at the end of the day, all those awards just end up in a small box on your wall. And years later, are your grandchildren going to have less respect for your because you didn't get a certain ribbon or will they see the honor in your service?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2015 3:22 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Apr 2015 03:22:14 -0400

Not a Marine obviously, but we have a similar attitude in the Army towards the CAB/CIB/CMB. I do not have a CIB or CAB, so my perception may admittedly be somewhat biased. However, this is my take on it: Our awards system is too broken to evaluate someone's competence solely based upon one little badge or ribbon. Furthermore, most of us had no control over what mission we were given or where we're sent.

The unit I deployed with was very strict with awards. We had troops who were hit with shrapnel from an incoming mortar round not receive a CIB because an ADA system had eliminated some of it. During the same period of time other units blanketed their entire formation because their FOB was occasionally mortared. I also know of units who blanketed the entire convoy if one truck was hit with an IED. Should my time outside the wire be valued less than the fobbit who received a CAB this way? Using their criteria I would've earned my CAB many times over. This disparity cheapens the awards in my opinion.

Ultimately I agree there should be a level of prestige with these types of awards. That is why they were established. However, I've met plenty of dirtbags with CIBs and CABs. Lacking one of these awards certainly should not disqualify or diminish an individual. As individuals we have almost no control over where we're deployed to and even less over who the enemy chooses to engage. I have respect for anyone who put the uniform on and served honorably.

Response by SPC Donald Tribble made Apr 2 at 2015 4:21 AM

SPC Donald Tribble — Thu, 02 Apr 2015 04:21:51 -0400

I served in the peacetime Army from 10/84-10/87 and I obviously wasn't in combat since there wasn't any to be had. Being a peacetime Veteran has been interesting. I have been both accepted and shunned. The acceptance had been by individual Veterans that I have met or worked with over the years and the shunning has been by both individual Veterans and also by Veteran organizations. The role that combat plays in the psyche of Veterans and Active Duty is, quite pervasive. After all isn't combat, the efficient execution of and survival of, what we trained for from the first day at Basic? Personally I think that we have enough issues as Veterans, of any flavor, that we need to be united together and supporting each other rather than infighting over who's better.

Response by GySgt Michael Harris made Apr 8 at 2015 1:07 PM

GySgt Michael Harris — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 13:07:27 -0400

As a retried Gunny since 1999, the same issue during my time existed. I knew senior enlisted and officers crossing into Iraq from Kuwait during the Gulf war to claim their three to four medals. They did this to be competitive with their peers for promotion and assignments. Unfortunately there are some that look at the medals on someones chest and not the metal of an individuals character when making decisions about promotions and assignments.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 1:46 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 13:46:10 -0400

Yes, it's one of those "the grass is always greener" arguments. "You're not a real marine until you have graduated from boot camp" you graduated? Then " you're not a real marine until you finish MOS school and get to the fleet" you're in the fleet? Well, "You're not a REAL marine unless you've deployed", oh you have? Well "you're not a REAL marine unless you have seen combat and have a CAR to prove it" oh, you saw combat? "It doesn't matter, you can't be a REAL marine because you're a POG". Oh you're infantry? "You aren't a REAL marine because you haven't been through MARSOC or Force Recon"... So basically there is only like 12 REAL marines ever?!?.... It's just a big joke taken too far. Graduating from boot camp makes you a marine, at least morally by our standards. If you go by facts, and paperwork, then you are a marine the moment you sign the dotted line.

Response by LtCol Scott Duncan made Apr 8 at 2015 2:33 PM

LtCol Scott Duncan — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 14:33:39 -0400

This is an issue of leadership and maturity - it is that simple. Those who think a CAR makes the Marine simply do not understand the "whole Marine" concept - nor what it truly means to be a Marine. The Commandant has it absolutely correct. His leadership and integrity are clearly in tact. Semper Fidelis

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Apr 8 at 2015 4:16 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 16:16:21 -0400

Good thing I got mine :o)

Response by Sgt Bonnie Shaw made Apr 8 at 2015 4:49 PM

Sgt Bonnie Shaw — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 16:49:03 -0400

When you figure out how this is to change, let me know. If you don't have a CAR and are a woman also, you are on a completely lower level of respect. We contribute in so many ways, yet are crapped upon and treated like second class members.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 5:18 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 17:18:18 -0400

This has been something circulating mainly in the grunt world. This is because over 80% of the USMC doesn't have a CAR. While it does seem like a "rite of passage" in the grunt realm, we need to remember the majority of the military are not grunts. We do not have the same op tempo or deployment opportunities. Therefore, you can't judge someone who hasn't been tested in the hells of combat. The very people being ridiculed could be the next one(s) that might earn the next MOH. To make a long winded post longer.... You can't judge people because they haven't been tested in combat. I have never deployed to Afghanistan or Iraq and I do not have a CAR.

Response by Sgt Ken Gergely made Apr 8 at 2015 5:47 PM

Sgt Ken Gergely — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 17:47:52 -0400

Generally speaking the military was created to fight wars, specifically the Marine Corps. When people hear that you were/are a Marine they automatically assume you have been to war. My issue is not with those who signed up, deployed and didn't pull a trigger. My issue is that after 14 years of war there are people who avoided deploying. IF you are one if those people you are not a warrior, nor a Marine. I don't care what rank you wear/wore, Marines don't avoud a fight. After 13 years and 7 deployments, five of which I led a squad of Marines in I believe I've warned the right to say that.

Response by SgtMaj Henk Brunsveld made Apr 8 at 2015 6:46 PM

SgtMaj Henk Brunsveld — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 18:46:15 -0400

Keep the CAR for sure. In WWII the Bronze Star was created for any person that had engaged in a combat fire-fight and performed. Then it became a superior performance award and for exceptional Valor award. After the Bronze Star, the people fighting in the sky were left out, so the Air Medal was created. You'll have to read the awards manual your self to completely understand the how's and why's for that award. But, it was to be equal to the ground combat awarding of the Bronze Star. Times have changed. To fill the gap, the Combat Action Ribbon has been awarded since. A Drill Instructor, Embassy Guard and Recruiter all get a ribbon for their service. The Combat Action Ribbon is a personal award and should left as is. Everyone that goes into a combat zone gets medals, which covers who was there. Good enough.
The back biting, is regular, old fashion military shit talk. Just like DI's verse Recruiters. Air Wing verses Grunt, verse support. Recon has non-Airbone LEGS, non-Scuba are common air breathers, Static-Line Airborne are Dopes on a rope to MFF-HALO jumpers. It goes on and on. The Political Correctness attitude has got to end. Heck you can get NJP for talking with your hand in "fingers and thumb in a salute position" and that is over the top.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 7:22 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 19:22:50 -0400

I don't think that is necessarily that one individual doesn't have it that's the issue. I felt similarly when CSM Chandler was appointed as the Sergeant Major of the Army. I didn't care that he had only deployed one after all these years at war, but I didn't think choosing him made sense because there had to have been many CSM's with more experience with the situations most Soldiers have dealt with, especially multiple tours, that could have been selected from. This may be biased because I spent 38 months in the middle east after the tours before my ninth year mark. I didn't seek to deploy over and over again, we were inn two surges and everyone in the Army went. So a decade into two wars to see someone nominated to the highest position enlisted can achieve with only one tour bothered me. I don't care that he didn't have valor devices or an expert infantryman badge, I cared that in a time of war we were being led by someone who had missed most of it.

Response by Cpl Todd Glenn made Apr 8 at 2015 7:26 PM

Cpl Todd Glenn — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 19:26:31 -0400

I am a Marine and I also have 2 boys that went the same way I went into the marines
one did his time and is out the other is still in and about to separate and come home. once a Marine always a Marine plain and simple. this is a saying that has been around a long time. yes there is a lot of shit talking going on about your mos and what ribbons you have. but these people gave what they could give in the support of are nation and there are others that gave up everything for are nation. be proud and show honor, and integrity for all branches of the military because if it wasn't for the people before you and after you who serve we will not stay a free country

Response by Sgt Charles A Vroman Jr made Apr 8 at 2015 8:54 PM

Sgt Charles A Vroman Jr — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 20:54:22 -0400

When I came in in '98, the CAR was a badge of honor and garnered respect among us Infantrymen. After participating in OIF/OEF from '01 thru '06, it seemed that the award had been cheapened as they were being awarded to everyone. To me, it was not cheapened at all. I earned mine and the way that I veiw it, everyone who was awarded theirs earned it too. I don't care if you're an 01 or an 08 or an 03, if you were awarded one; you earned it.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 11:26 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 23:26:59 -0400

Here's an honest answer... From a POG with a CAR. There will always be the few who are still immature enough to put weight on the ribbon, that will never change. The bigger problem is the fact that we have MSgt, GySgt, SSgt, Sgt, and Cpl that are letting this affect them on a personal and professional level. Their leadership skills and overall sheer amount of experience can and will always dictate how Marines respond to them. The fact that this is a discussion does nothing more than make those 10% think they are getting one up on those senior ranks. I have a CAR and have many friends who do as well. None of us hold ourselves above anyone at any rank, we understand that we were presented with a unique opportunity and got an award for it... Nothing else. This is what a real combat veteran understands.
Not to mention the only people who say stupid stuff like that either got blanketed by their company or platoon, or don't have the ribbon themselves. I mean come on people this is a ridiculous thing to be worked up about

Response by PO3 Tanis Huston made Apr 9 at 2015 6:14 AM

PO3 Tanis Huston — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 06:14:48 -0400

I'm a Sailor so take my opinion for what it's worth to you. I do not believe a ribbon makes or defines an individual. I got a CAR because for lack of better words was at the right place at the right time, does it make me any better then any of the other people on the ships that where deployed with me but weren't ported with us? Does it make me any better then a Marine that has far more deployments under their belt?

My CAR does not define me, nor does it make me a better person. It doesn't mean I'm more respectable then another that doesn't have one.

If social media what's to define a individuals worth based on what ribbons they have is missing the bigger more important picture. We should be defined for what we do as a person and what we bring to those around us!

Response by MSgt Andrew Radford made Apr 9 at 2015 1:35 PM

MSgt Andrew Radford — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 13:35:23 -0400

I think it's BS for people to show a senior leader less respect if he or she is lacking a certain award. Years ago I recall it being frowned upon for a Marine who wanted to be a First Sergeant and Sergeant Major to not have a drill field or recruiting tour under their belt. That was crap too. The fact of the matter is that we are Marines, and we go and do what we're ordered to do. And being selected for SMMC has nothing to do with a Marines' career choices, like they had any control over those anyway, and everything about what kind of leader he or she is. Because that's what it's all about....Leadership. I dare any junior Marine to walk up to any Sergeant Major and tell him or her that they deserve less respect because they don't have a CAR, drill field ribbon, or any other uniform decoration. They're selected because throughout their career they have demonstrated superior leadership traits and have been recognized for it by being promoted to higher rank and responsibility. You don't have to be a grunt, or a tanker, or an artilleryman to be a good leader. And you don't have to be in combat to display superior leadership. As for myself, I'm a retired Master Sergeant with an aviation MOS, a combat tour in Afghanistan, and two air medals for my combat service. So I've been in combat, along with my entire MEU (SOC), and other than the combat arms Marines who patrolled outside the wire, only a handful of the Marines in the MEU received any sort of recognition for their combat experience. That doesn't make any of them less of a leader, or less of a potential future Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 4:47 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Apr 2015 16:47:25 -0400

If a Marine has his CAR and is using it as a tool to be "above" someone then their unit probably just did mass awards for it. Or probably took a few pop shots and got it. A ribbon stack is nothing but metal and cloth on one pin to put on your uniform. Its sad to say but i do not take anyones stack seriously because ive seen Officers get written up and it looks good on paper when really it was almost friendly fire. Ive seen CAR's get passed out and NAM's like candy. My first squad i ever had never seen combat and i bet at least 3 of them can take a squadleader spot over combat veterans. Sure war gives you experience but it does not change who you are or how well you fight. The only time ive ever even mentioned my time in iraq or afghanistan or anything i did in combat to my squad is when related to a class i was teaching and i could give them a real world example. Other than that all these Iraq and Afghan vets need to let go of the past. They sound like a middle aged man saying "if couch would have put me in the second half we would have one that game." Its sad to admit but i believe this war took us down a bit because ive had 1 pump afghan vets who thought they did it all and nobody should ever need anything from them. So i took all those corporals and put them on working parties to instill the fact it dont matter how much combat you seen how many stars are on your CAR or what youve done in the Marine Corps your still a boot to somebody. I say the people who have their CAR's and live through them is the problem. Im proud of my CAR because i know i earned it. I know what i had to live through to get some 3 dollar colorful peice of cloth added to my uniform. I will never hold it above anyones head because its a personal award. It means something to me. and if anyone thinks having a CAR makes them a better Marine then let me impose you with a question. Does having a purple heart make you less of a Marine since you let the enemy get the upper hand on you? i knew a gunny that had 2 purple hearts and never put one on his uniform because he was embarassed by them. he said they were the enemies ribbons. Its our responsibility (the ones who have experienced combat) to insure that we are heading into the right step on teaching the guys what they need to know to be prepared and be ready. Because guess what if your sitting there with a CAR on your chest and you feel all big and mighty like your above anything remember the Marines without CAR's will still deploy with you peacetime or combat.

Response by Sgt Anthony Prince made Apr 19 at 2015 12:48 AM

Sgt Anthony Prince — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 00:48:50 -0400

I have traveled all throughout the Al-Anbar province during my 12 month deployment, and had not faced conflict. We had been exposed many times, perhaps it was luck, but either way, the opportunities were there.
I do not have a Combat Action Ribbon, so you may think I'm whining, but in reality, given the opportunity, we would have performed just as any Marine would when faced with such a situation.
I believe the CAR should stay, because ribbons and medals are meant show others the make up of the experiences faced through your career as well as your deeds in and out of battle.
Every Marine is a rifleman, no matter what their MOS, and on deployment, many don't actually perform theirs, their job in theater is what the Corps requires, not what you signed up to do.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 7:52 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 07:52:54 -0400

I want to caution people here that with the Stolen Valor issue that there ARE people who are using this situation and others like it to marginalize the service of veterans. There is also from what I see, a tendency to destroy each other based on nothing more than the CAR.

We do and there is no disputing it that we have unverified accounts and those accounts are similar. I am tracking every one of them that I detect. Now as to the faux pas of a few, these same souless miscreants are pushing those active duty who have either made mistakes or were remiss into a like category as those on the street corners who have never served and that is... inexcusable.

We can take whatever remedial action necessary to make sure everyone is current and representing correctly. I can't believe the number of ribbons some people have and especially in contrast to other wars and other generations. Be that as it may, we are the ARMED FORCES, not a bunch of John Cena Jarheads or Sgt Slaughters. We are the real deal outside of Nidal Hassan (Muslim Terrorist) and others who walk amongst us pilloring the lives of innocents.

I agree with the General in regard to regalia being more important to unit cohesion. The truth is, outside the military families and friends there are those who could give a rat's ass if we had one gun or one F-35 just as long as they reap a few dollars.

And for the posers out there, here and outside the 0's and 1's, stay classy SM and Veterans, we ARE the good guys. Overall. None perfect but at least we serve this great country and we spit in the eyes of those who call that into question.

Response by SSG Katherine Likely made Sep 18 at 2015 6:03 AM

SSG Katherine Likely — Fri, 18 Sep 2015 06:03:10 -0400

I personally think the rack is a great award booster to morale - BUT, when I look at an individual I look for those accomplishments they may have done that were overlooked or were not important enough for ribbons and those at boy pats on the back. Ribbons do not make the solider any more then looking at the night starts makes you an astronomer.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2015 1:11 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 13:11:53 -0400

Keep the CAR, even though I don't have one myself. The Taliban didn't want to mess with me and my unit when we were out there, what can I say.... :) We were motivated, locked on, and didn't wear white sox!
Either way, it will always be something, in this never-ending rivalry and competition - within and outside the Marine Corps.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 10 at 2017 1:14 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 10 May 2017 13:14:06 -0400

One of my proudest moments was wearing my CAR to the birthday ball after OIF 1...

Of course, I'm in the Army now, so now my CAR is just greeted with "is that a reserve award or something?".. Ah well..

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Apr 28 at 2018 9:19 AM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Sat, 28 Apr 2018 09:19:32 -0400

I once served with a Colonel who, although a recipient of the Navy Cross, often wore only his wings. His belief was that any helicopter pilot serving during the Vietnam era didn't need to display his personal awards on a continuous basis because the wings were adequate evidence of the character of his service. Similarly, I have never met the holder of one of the valor awards who looked down on contemporaries who had not been similarly honored, or needed a medal or ribbon to reinforce their self esteem. When the CAR was started, it was no big deal since the majority of those who had Vietnam experience had been in situations that merited the award. Willingness to place one's life on the line and "defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic" is the base from which all who serve start. Only those who demonstrate cowardness in the face of the opportunity to uphold that oath deserve second class status. Those who elect to categorize others as second class, unless they can prove cowardly conduct on the other persons part, need to analyze their criteria of bravery. I can testify being shot at and responding appropriately is no more noteworthy than the dedication of others who are serving with the realization such incidents are an expectation.

Response by SPC James Jackson made Mar 19 at 2020 1:04 PM

SPC James Jackson — Thu, 19 Mar 2020 13:04:27 -0400

Believe it or not this is a minor grievance as far as combat action awards go in the military. Take the Army for example. For the longest time if you didn't have a 11 series mos or related and saw combat all you got was basically an AAM and a certificate of achievement saying thanks for your effort it helped save lives whereas the former got a CIB and you were fawned all over. Fast forward to the introduction of the CAB for recognition of those soldiers who were not 11 series but saw just as much combat and even then you are still looked at by a lot of your peers as a joke for wearing the wreath, bayonet and grenade badge and not the wreath and musket because they will always be seen as a "pog" and the badge is just an indicator to those who would threat you as such. The Army is so much more toxic when it comes to stuff like this to the point I've known guys not wear them when they get them just so they don't have to hear their shit. Well they certainly don't hear it until after mealtimes, after they see doc, mail call or payday rolls around then when they are going through the line and the comments are kept quiet long enough for them to get the things that mean the most to them.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2020 3:30 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:30:30 -0400

Considering the optempo for the last 30 years, I have respect for anyone that dons a uniform of any service. We were fired upon and shelled a few times in Somalia, but it was more of a nuisance. Plenty mixed it up pretty good though. CAR is a Badge of Honor IMO because everyone volunteered, and did their job under fire. Same as those before them in years past, draftee or not.