Off post house inspections/visits?

2014-06-16T17:53:58-04:00

Are leaders able to go to a Soldiers house off post to conduct health and welfare inspections if they suspect there maybe a hygiene issue? I have seen leaders do this in the past against the Soldiers wishes. Can this be done? If not what are tools outside of DCFS/CPS if you are concerned a child maybe in an unhealthy environment but want to confirm it before involving official authorities?

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Jun 16 at 2014 6:32 PM

2014-06-16T18:32:56-04:00

You can and should routinely visit the homes (which includes barracks as well as on/off post housing) of your Soldiers. It is your responsibility to ensure the Soldier and their dependents are living in a healthy environment - this is not a choice.

It doesn't have to be intrusive, just use common sense and use your senses. Let the Soldier know you'd like to visit (e.g. next week on Wednesday) their home just to see how everything is going with the Soldier (and family). Let your senses take over - the sense of smell will be the first alarm once the door opens...You will know if you have a problem or not but it is your responsibility to conduct the visit, its part of being a leader.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2014 9:30 AM

2014-06-17T09:30:33-04:00

Couple of things I would like to add as this is a great discussion.

1. As some have stated inspecting on-post is relatively easy, but a couple of things to consider. A. Ensure after you have checked with JAG that leadership from the PMO are available, I understand the need to keep things a lowest level possible however for damages and illegal substances should be documented and prosecuted.

2. When it comes to off-post quarters. If a soldier refuses, most places that Soldier's rent from have landlords and they usually have a 24 notice inspection clause. Reach out to the landlord and have them request the unit leadership be present for the walkthrough. (Check with JAG and ensure that there is a genuine need to inspect)

3. DO NOT threaten to take a soldier's BAH if they refuse an off-post search. It is considered coercion. Its also very illegal. I am not saying the Command can not do that but they will have to have a very compelling reason to remove the soldier from his home.

Im not a lawyer so don't quote me but ensure you check with your local JAG, Family Advocacy Reps etc.

Response by 1SG Alan Bailey made Jun 17 at 2014 10:12 AM

2014-06-17T10:12:27-04:00

This is a pretty good discussion, and here at Fort Hood it is required that leaders check on/off post housing and barracks. It can be difficult when dealing with the spouse if you tell the Soldier you are coming to inspect thier home it can come over the wrong way to the spouse. What we did when I was a 1SG, myself and the commander would go to the Soldiers house after giving them 24 hours are so and we would take our wives, they were the FRG leadership and we would use this as a welcome to the unit and a chance to see how and where they were living, and it worked great. The wives put together a welcome packet and a small gift. Than the next visit came from section chief and platoon leadership. It seem to go easier if they brought thier wife and used it to introduce them. And this help build the FRG up.

Response by SFC Stephen Carden made Jun 17 at 2014 12:28 PM

2014-06-17T12:28:59-04:00

In 20+ years of active duty and 5 years in the ARNG/USAR, I have never once had a leader come to my house off-post to check on my living conditions. What I have done, however, is have my subordinates over to my house often to show by example what I expect of them. That way, when I counsel them, whether they live in barracks or on/off-post housing, they know what my standards are. I also accept every invitation to any event at my subordinates' houses. I am there to be social (to a point), build section/detachment/team esprit-de-corps, and take a look at how they are living. When you enlisted, you left mommy behind. There is no one to clean up after you here. I expect you to do it yourself. If you need me to show you how, then I will. Once.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2014 12:54 PM

2014-06-17T12:54:47-04:00

I have seen commands conduct visits of homes of thier Soldiers who live off post to ensure that everything is ok and that they are not living in unhealty conditions. I have not seen a regulation that states explicitly that it can or cannot be done.

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made Jul 6 at 2014 12:27 AM

2014-07-06T00:27:39-04:00

Seriously, I have read the responses from the various members of RP on this point and am sure confused. You are really advising someone to go out to a home in the civilian community and go in to preform a Health and Comfort Inspection on a member and his/her Civilian SPOUSE and family. Without a warrant and without any local LE accompaniment? Even in On Base housing our Spouses expect a degree of privacy, but it is not hard to get around and claim Command necessity - ON BASE.

However, SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member is in a foreign country - YES Germany is still not part off the USA even with the number of Soldiers stationed there. Army personnel perceived as enforcing American Policies in a German neighborhood? With all due respect, really?

When I worked in CPS we were very careful in our contacts with families. The Home Visit is so fraught with danger because you are on their ground. At times we even took Armed LE with us to be safe. We also always made home visits in pairs if at all possible, at least on our first visit.

If you have to do this then only after discussing it and being invited in with lots of warning. Unless I am mistaken, just because a Soldier draws BAH and lives off post, he has not lost his rights.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2014 10:41 AM

2014-07-11T10:41:49-04:00

Visiting is the key word here...inspecting would be a search and therefore fall in a different category.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2014 12:29 PM

2014-07-19T12:29:45-04:00

Leaders need to be aware of, read, and UNDERSTAND AR 190-22.

Chapter 2
Searches, Seizures, Inspections, and Inventories

2–1. Initiating a search, seizure, inspection, and inventory
a. Commanders and law enforcement personnel must be aware of
the distinction between searches, seizures, inspections, and inventories.
Whenever possible, consult with the Staff Judge Advocate’s
Office before the initiation of any of these actions.

b. Searches conducted off military installations or in areas or
buildings not under military control normally must be conducted by
civilian authorities under the authority of a search warrant. These
searches may be conducted in the United States, its territories and
possessions, and the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. Military personnel
will not execute search warrants or assist civilian police
during a search. However, military personnel, when directed by
competent authority, may accompany civilian police in the execution
of a search warrant. Policy and procedures for providing off installation
military law enforcement services are contained in AR
190–24.

2–2. Probable cause searches
Guidelines for probable cause searches are listed below.
a. Search authorization. Generally, probable cause searches should be conducted only under the authority of a search authorization
or a search warrant. Exceptions to this policy are found in
paragraph 2–2g.

2–3. Searches not requiring probable cause
The following categories of searches do not require probable cause
and may be conducted without a search authorization or warrant:

a. Consent searches. A person may consent to a search of person
or property or both. The person giving consent must be the one
exercising control over the property to be searched. Consent may be
limited in any fashion by the person granting consent. Consent may
be withdrawn at any time. To be valid, consent must be given
voluntarily. Mere submission to authority of a superior or personnel
performing law enforcement duties or yielding to an announced
search is not voluntary consent. A person from whom consent is
requested need not be advised of his or her rights to refuse to give
consent. However, giving this advice could rebut subsequent claims
that the consent was not voluntary.

2–4. Inspections
Inspections are a necessary and legitimate exercise of a commander’s
powers and responsibilities. A commander may examine the
whole or part of a unit, organization, installation, vessel, aircraft, or
vehicle, including entrance and exit points. An inspection may not
be used as a subterfuge for conducting a search.
...
(2)e. Searches of Government property. Government property, including
vehicles, may be searched without probable cause. However,
the person to whom the property is issued or assigned may have
a reasonable expectation of privacy therein at the time of the search.
Normally, a person does not have a reasonable expectation of privacy
in Government property that is not issued for personal use.
Wall or floor lockers in living quarters are normally issued for
storing personal possessions. If the lockers are used only for this
purpose, they should not be searched under the provisions of this
subparagraph. However, whether there is a reasonable expectation
of privacy in Government property issued for personal use depends
on the unique facts and circumstances surrounding each case.

2–5. Inventories
Inventories will be conducted in accordance with the proper regulation
requiring the inventory to be conducted. Unlawful weapons,
contraband, or other evidence of a crime discovered in an administrative
inventory may be seized. An inventory may not be used as a
subterfuge for a search.

So those are the major points that I believe leaders must be aware of. The reg (AR 190-22) specifically suggests consulting JAG prior to any type of inspection, inspection, or search. Not knowing the regs on this subject can get you relieved and/or court-martialled should you violate Soldiers' rights. As we all know and tell our subordinates, "ignorance of the rules and regs is not a defense."

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2014 7:47 PM

2014-07-19T19:47:21-04:00

Nope. Totally not legal under the 4th amendment, which still applies if modified to the ucmj. Old uneducated soldiers were told because you receive BAH, you can be inspected or have some one look in your house. Untrue. You enter a legal binding agreement with a landlord or even if you purchase a home. It's between you and the other entity, the military is not involved. If some one in your chain of command tries to force the issue at your door call the cops. Even on post dwellings require a detailed process to conduct an inspection. Even Mps are also required to observe certain protocols before entering a dwelling.

Response by SSG William Sutter made Jul 20 at 2014 9:06 PM

2014-07-20T21:06:49-04:00

You know, my commander and 1SG is doing a health and welfare on both the off and on post housing units this pay day activities. What I find absolutely appalling is that this even has to happen. We as adults (leave alone any military affiliation or rank) are supposed to provide a safe and healthy environment for not just ourselves but our families. I looked over some of the responses others have posted prior to typing this and some have good ideas. HOWEVER, masking one thing so you can do another can be seen as two faced (deceptive) which can lead directly to the destruction of respect towards the chain of command. If you want to come out and see that I am living in a safe neighborhood- maybe that should have taken place before the lease was signed. Back in my day it was a requirement that my first line goes to the potential place of residence before signing the lease. Another- if you want to come out and welcome us make sure that it is reason. During that visit it would be a good idea to cover whatever information you want to cover (taking care of the family or whatnot). Second when I had Soldiers (I am staff without Soldiers), I covered taking care of family or significant others in my monthly counselings. Should I know where my Soldier lives, yes. Will I visit frequently- not unless there is cause for alarm. Once I see someone is responsible then I will let that adult be an adult. I also expect NO backlash at work if for any reason my wife slams the door in someones face if they come here and say I am here for a health and welfare inspect. Housing is for the family- not the Soldier so if the wife does that, not my fault. I tried to explain to her what is going on. If she feels invaded then I can't stop her.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2014 8:32 AM

2014-07-22T08:32:53-04:00

I don't think so. My wife is a civilian, and my commander has absolutely no authority to inspect her things/dwelling off post. Friendly visit? Sure. Inspection? No way.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 1:28 AM

2014-10-31T01:28:42-04:00

First, I am not an attorney, second, this is just how I read and understood the regulations and therefore the following is only an opinion and not legal advice. I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on it. This is how I interpret this issue. If your soldier and/or his spouse refuse to let you into their home and they live off post...well..sorry...you are just going to have to suck it up and deal with it. The spouse nor the soldier, is under any obligation to let you in the home and demanding entrance to either party will more than likely get your arrested not to mention an IG investigation. They do not live in government housing which is located on federal property and therefore out of any commanders jurisdiction. Another member of the military, regardless of rank or position, is not allowed to enter a soldiers home without being accompanied by civilian law enforcement carrying a search warrant. In order to get that search warrant, the commander would have to show probable cause for his reasons for wanting to enter the home to a civilian judge or magistrate. As a former civilian police officer, they just don't hand out search warrants like candy, you better know what you are looking for and have a damn good reason. Even then, any household member can refuse military personnel from entering the home because military personnel are federal employees and not civilian law enforcement personnel. Sorry...in this case...the rank on your chest in no way trumps civil rights of others living off post. If they do let you in the home, you are only allowed to limit the "visit", at no time are you allowed to search for anything, but the visit is limited to the first common area of the home you enter, such as a a living room or kitchen for example. You can't go upstairs, in bedrooms, or private areas of the home unless invited. The moment you are asked to leave, you must do exactly that without question, they are the king/queen of that castle, you are a guest and therefore their authority trumps your rank.

Response by 1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 3:59 PM

2014-10-31T15:59:34-04:00

Had this issue years ago and off post quarters are completely off limits if the soldier does not agree. If children health and welfare are of question, Usually this is reported through the schools they may attend. This brings in outside interest of child protective services of location. On post quarters is government property which becomes fair game. This too has some approving authority that needs to be approved.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 12:07 AM

2015-02-02T00:07:34-05:00

The short answer for on post privatized housing and off post housing is absolutely no. Read this http://goo.gl/PfWGIw

Response by SPC Lukas Jones made Feb 2 at 2015 2:16 PM

2015-02-02T14:16:05-05:00

This poses a great question. I am unsure as to the regulations, but I would expect a leader to act on any concerns for the health and safety of his/her soldiers and family. Having said that, if you suspect abuse on behalf of the spouse or child(ren) I would hope you take a much more aggressive course of action.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 2:30 PM

2015-02-02T14:30:34-05:00

This is a slippery slope SGT Castleman. However, where there is a will, there is a way to legally approach this common issue. I have offered Soldier's in question rides home if they were commonly picked up by there spouse and upon arrival asked if I could use their bathroom. In other instances I have stopped by a Soldier's house under the guise that I was in the area and needed had an emergency whereby I requested to use their bathroom. They will never deny you the use of their bathroom.

With this Soldier's are always the best source on all the best G-2 whereby it will come out if someone is living foul out on the economy. Truthfully only local authorities have the ability to address said matters.

Let me add that throughout my entire career I always believed that what was good for my Soldier's was just as good for me in that I had a standing open invitation to any Soldier or member of my chain of command to inspect my off post domicile.

We leader's have to set the example and should never be considered above reproach...Soldier's are pillars of our communities as we directly represent the United States Army 24/7!

Response by PFC Joshua Ambrose made Jul 21 at 2015 12:24 PM

2015-07-21T12:24:55-04:00

So I am pretty sure that I have Read all of the responses. My question is what about when it comes to On Post Privatized housing? I am a veteran and my wife who is active informed me that her chain of command is going to "they are going to start doing home checks". Now we have made it very clear that for off post it is fine but what about on post housing? I know before it was owned by the government so suck it up but now that housing is privatized is the CoC just allowed to "check" my house at will? I understand the want check on soldiers and support it but they did not ask to do a house check but are rather telling her it will happen. And that I do not support at all.

Would any one be able to clarify for on post housing? I have read the article below and saw that the general rule is no. but can anyone point me to an AR or DA-pam that says it.

My wife being lower enlisted is not wanting to tell them they cant out of fear of repercussion but i on the other hand have no problem telling them no as long as it is valid.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2016 6:49 PM

2016-01-26T18:49:58-05:00

If you allow them in yes they can but you may refuse and they will have to leave and they are not allowed to seek punitive actions . if you live on post housing then they can ask housing but they have to give you 24 hrs notice . there also supposed to inform you that you do not have to let them in if you do not want them there. Most NCOs do not do this ! And there wrong . its kind of like if they asked you to print your bank statement and bring it on for review. You can totally refuse to let them go over your bank statement just by saying no and there also supposed to tell you that this is an option. Which also is not done . the reason NCOs do these things is because either they do not know the proper regulations themselves and assume through word of mouth or they assume you do not know these regs yourself. But being a take no shit from anyone person I do my research and know my rights military and civilian side. One more thing they can get MPs to search your house without warning but they have to have probable cause and they can't do it it just to make themselves feel better because there butt hurt that you originally said no to there initial inspection. I hope my reply helped someone in this matter remember just because there higher ranking doesn't mean you need to always be pushed around research the regs

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2016 12:52 PM

2016-02-17T12:52:37-05:00

No they can't. the owner of the hose and any leaving member must provide consent, even with consent they can say only in the living room and kitchen. if you violate that they can charge you for trespassing. This is a difficult situation, If you have concern about there living situation just do the Right think. Contact CPS/DCFS...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2018 4:45 PM

2018-08-20T16:45:28-04:00

I haven’t been able to find any mention of it in AR 600-20 or anywhere else. From my past experiences, yes it is obviously a good idea to check soldiers living conditions. However, our rules from the BDE commander stated that we had to provide a sufficiant reason for inspecting the property and (if approved) give the soldier notice one week in advance. The reason being was that on post housing is privatized housing which is outside of the bde footprint and usually will only warrant searching for reasons such as;
- Soldier has asked for witness to unlivable conditions after Housing Office has failed to fix issue after complaint has been made
- Soldier was found to test positive for or be in possession of illegal drugs.
- Leaders have been notified by seperate sources (i.e. soldier’s battle buddy) that the soldier is living in unsanitary or unlivable conditions.
No Leader or Commander may inspect Off Post housing unless for criminal reason and only after the proper authorities (civilian police) have inspected the home.

Im sure that every post and/or commander have their own policies on the matter, but this was true of the two seperate posts that i have been stationed.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Aug 20 at 2018 9:46 PM

2018-08-20T21:46:14-04:00

Although many responses indicate some authority to conduct an official or semi-official visit to a member's off base quarters, the fact is, military authority in this area ends at the gate unless the quarters are leased by the government. If you attempt to "force" your way into an individual's home you are guilty of trespass.
If you have indications, evidence or suspicions, I would suggest a bit of informal investigating by confidential talks with some of the member's friends or acquaintances followed almost immediately by a discussion with the member if your suspicions are confirmed or continue after your "investigation". I would also couch your conversation with the member openly, i.e. we are concerned that your situation ashore is not appropriate or suitable. Is there a problem we can help you with?
If the member refuses assistance and your concerns continue, investigate the availability of government quarters and remind the individual that, in cooperation with the base commander, you can have his authority to live off base revoked (if this hasn't changed since my retirement!) and tell the member you are considering reporting the situation to the DCFS/CPS.

Response by Caitlin Williams made Mar 12 at 2019 2:45 AM

2019-03-12T02:45:50-04:00

We kissy went through this they have no authority in privatized housing including on base only the people who made your lease are allowed to step in for inspections. Leadership is not. And they can’t lawfully order it either. I asked them where their warrant was when they decided to pull that last minute notice bullshit. Also ACS or family advocacy is where to make those reports

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2019 11:39 AM

2019-06-18T11:39:06-04:00

A friendly "Welcome Aboard" visit is a good thing for all concerned. No authority to "inspect" with or without notice. Leave that to the professionals if you have reasonable cause.