Officer/NCO Animosity: Have you experienced it? How did you handle it?

2014-11-14T13:25:39-05:00

In the TRADOC environment here at Fort Gordon I am seeing an increasing trend of Lieutenant students that I engage in mentoring, who bring up that they are told by some of their Captain "mentors" that NCO's are *expletives* who will string you up or let you hang yourself in a heartbeat and not to trust them.

I remedy what I can in my mentoring to tell these young officers to disregard those statements. I point them to numerous doctrinal items and I have been giving them a book that was put together at the pentagon years ago which gives some wisdom to Officer and NCO alike in regards to their relationships with one another, and how to achieve the best results. I tell them to know what to expect from their NCO's, and know what they expect from you, and ensure that you hold each other to it.

The NCO's job is to mentor, train, advise, and assist the officer... not hang them out to dry.

I feel like there is a growing rift between our Officer and Enlisted Corps, and this division surely cannot lead anywhere good.

My questions to the NCO's and Officers out there:

Have you experienced this animosity toward NCO's? If so, how did you handle it?

Have you seen the flip-side of this where NCO's have a severe distaste for Officers? If so, how did you handle it?

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2014 1:28 PM

2014-11-14T13:28:50-05:00

A lovely, Toxic environment of the type yon Lieutenants should read about in the UCMJ (conduct unbecoming) and Title VII, Civil Right Act--Hostile Work Environment, not to mention the DOD principles, EEO, etc.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2014 2:14 PM

2014-11-14T14:14:27-05:00

Not a new problem. There are always officers that refuse to listen to senior NCO's and end up getting the $hite end of the stick from above them. Thus they are left feeling that the NCO's set them up for failure and resent the NCO cadre for the rest of the rest of their hopefully short career. Some junior officers will listen, some will not - there's not much you can do about it, other than doing YOUR job @ 110% as usual. Officers who opt to only listen to other officers (in garrison) find themselves groping for answers when deployed. BTDT.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Nov 14 at 2014 2:58 PM

2014-11-14T14:58:40-05:00

SSG Jason Cherry This may be a service difference. As a trend I've got nothing but good things to say about the NCOs I've worked with even in the joint world, but especially in the Corps.

Response by PO2 Jonathan Scharff made Nov 14 at 2014 2:59 PM

2014-11-14T14:59:33-05:00

In my short time on RP this topic seems to be a recurring one. I will add my 2 cents. First, I have been out 28 years (wow that sounds awful lol). Second, I did serve in the Coast Guard (let's keep snickering to a minimum lol).

Every time I read one of these NCO/Officer posts I kinda shake my head. I keep thinking times have changed, or the other branches are different, or I don't know what. We had much more of a team effort then I seem to be reading about in the other branches. But, I did not have this negative experience at all with officers. 99% of them were very good leaders, good examples and relied on their Petty Officers the way they should. Every new person to a unit or ship requires "training" to get up to speed. We did this as a group. I never felt like it was my job to train a new ensign. That is ridiculous. They don't do what I do. I really feel like there are a lot of enlisted on RP that have a bit of an inferiority complex. In fact, the only officer that I thought was pompous and lacking in integrity was prior service! I just always did my job and did it extremely well. I found just about every officer that I dealt with to be extremely appreciative of my work. Maybe it was because of working fixing electronics and it is hard to tell someone how to do it if you have no idea yourself.

However, I would attribute unfortunately, all of these negative stereotype to senior NCO's or in my case Petty Officers. I know that there are a lot more of us then officers on this site and this might receive a bit of backlash, but I have to be truthful about my experience. Again maybe the other branches are different, but my 6 year experience with out a doubt showed me that the higher enlisted rank you got the less you did! However, it didn't stop you from telling those below you what they should be doing even when you had no idea. It is one of the biggest reasons why I got out. I had outstanding reviews and praise from command, but I really didn't want to get to a point where I just sat on my butt and drank coffee in the Chief's mess all day. Plus I don't even drink coffee! lol

In conclusion (hopefully I don't have too many down votes yet!), every interaction I have had here on RP with an officer has also been professional and informative. I really can't say that about all the enlisted comments that I have read. So, before any of you think I am brown nosing or something to that effect, please read my third sentence, I have been out 28 years so I have no reason to do that. However, even if it is unpopular, I don't have a problem expressing my personal experiences. I hope that times haven't changed that much and hope that most of what I read is venting...and least I do for my son who is serving in the army now.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2014 3:10 PM

2014-11-14T15:10:31-05:00

Either Officer or Enlisted who engages in this type of Hyperbole should be strongly censured. I worked almost exclusively with officers while in weather but I could say that only 2-3 officers were of the kind who would do anything of that nature.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2014 3:25 PM

2014-11-14T15:25:39-05:00

I can't speak to any current situation other than to remark on my recent observations here on RallyPoint. When I was in the Navy I never, ever saw an NCO speak in a disrespectful manner to an officer. Even when the officer was out of line and perhaps that NCO spoke with them about it later in private.

Here on RallyPoint I see this happen daily. I'm honestly a bit shocked and dismayed that it happens so frequently. So I don't know whether it's simply a side affect of the social media atmosphere or if it goes on person to person but it is worse than what I saw in my limited experience on active duty.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2014 8:57 PM

2014-11-14T20:57:47-05:00

SSG Cherry....good on your for taking the initiative to mentor young officers, and you could be more correct in your statement it is the NCO's job to mentor, train, advise, and assist us officers in our careers. As you know, there is an NCO assigned as a "battle buddy" to ever officer from the platoon leader all the way to the Chief of Staff of the Army. This is by design and for a good reason. Especially as young officers, we need the experience and wisdom of the NCO corps to guide us and provide the honest response to how our operations will affect our Soldiers.

What it sounds like is that those captains have had negative experiences with NCOs and unfortunately think that that is the way the NCO corps is. Very unfortunate.

Thanks again for doing what you are doing as a mentor and an NCO!

Response by MSgt Timothy Johnson made Jan 19 at 2015 12:06 AM

2015-01-19T00:06:05-05:00

I am amazed. Maybe surprised. I do not remember ever having any animosity towards officers. I had some challenges with a couple of INDIVIDUALS. This might be my experience only. I focused on the objectives and trusted those above to remedy the situation. Any officer above us is smart enough to know when the completion of a mission could be jeopardized.

Response by SFC(P) Tobias M. made Jan 20 at 2015 1:19 PM

2015-01-20T13:19:18-05:00

I can tell you that is an issue everywhere. I have been in the military for 14 years now have dealt with it all. I have had one officer that hatted that I was to train him due to him being a higher rank. I can tell you that once I showed him the error of his ways he then turned around and did as I asked knowing that one day he will be able to be in charge.

My current PL (God Bless him) Kept trying to run the platoon only because he has not had a PLT SGT to run things. Now that I am there he kept trying and I had to show him that the PLT was mine not his. I belonged to him and I controlled the PLT. He is now aware that he is the one that puts the plans together and I am the one that makes the wheels turn.

This is something that we have to teach our young officers. You will never change the older ones that have that mind set due to being burned once before. The officers that have not been burned don't have that mind set (That I have seen).

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2015 12:53 PM

2015-05-15T12:53:03-04:00

I can see why that would happen. I see Sergeants here, I wouldn't call them NCOs because they lack professionalism, that think LTs are worthless. I wish some of these keyboard warriors were around in person. I doubt they would be saying the same stuff. But when you have an SFC that treats this LT like crap what would you expect. That LT will be a CPT soon. Then he will have the power to do what he is doing. It is not right at all. What kills me is then the NCOs will blame him for being a jerk but he is a product of NCOs. They were there to mentor him. Instead they bullied him.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 15 at 2015 4:25 PM

2015-05-15T16:25:51-04:00

I have been lucky as we knew we had common goals.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made May 16 at 2015 9:03 AM

2015-05-16T09:03:28-04:00

I never felt like the Officers as a whole I worked with resented my presence or discounted my advice on a given topic. I had one or two individuals that had their cranium crammed up their anal orifice but those were isolated incidents and soon corrected themselves.

I was fortunate to work with officers of every branch (including the Coasties). Most seemed to value the enlisted inputs and were respected more because of it. I'll admit I've gone behind closed doors on multiple occasions and had some knock down, drag out, almost come to blows shouting matches with a few officers I thought were misguided. When the door opened, we were one team with one mission marching forward. Sometimes I could make them understand their error. Sometimes they made me understand mine.

That brings up a whole new issue though. Maybe that's where we've lost our way as leaders. I remember as a very new Airman, I NEVER saw an officer and NCO argue in public. Toward the end of my career, I would see NCO's and officer alike calling each other out in front of the troops. Maybe we've lost something by allowing ourselves to fall into that trap.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2015 3:41 AM

2015-10-09T03:41:50-04:00

O vs NCO is all fun and games until the Change of Command inventory comes around. NCO's will throw the CDR under the bus if their paycheck is threatened. This is why CDR's are trained to not trust anyone when it comes to inventories. Sign for your stuff, then make sure you hand-receipt anything that is not under your personal control.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 11 at 2015 12:36 PM

2015-10-11T12:36:41-04:00

No animosity with NCOs. Are you in REMF land?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2015 5:51 PM

2015-10-15T17:51:12-04:00

I believe that Officers should be respected as much as possible because that link with NCOs sends a strong message to younger enlisted types. Also our family goes back to the Civil War, WWII with higher ranking officers, Colonels, LTCs and Majors. I am sorry but having seizures and having difficulties typing.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2015 5:21 PM

2015-10-16T17:21:15-04:00

SSG Jason Cherry, Really? I had not encountered that personally, lately. Thank you for sharing your wisdom on the subject with them and for your advice to them especially the book, which one are you referring to? I know that young Lieutenants can at times come across as Privates with too much rank, but generally they are very moldable and trainable and respect you as you show them the same. I believe it is beneficial to speak to the spreader of this false info as well. Once, I had 2 young Lieutenants, in a Company I was in (one that was prior enlisted), tell me that a Staff Captain was telling them that there was no such thing as NCO business and I had to explain to them that there truly was and that even though I respected the CPT, he was misinformed and they proceeded to tell me that the BC had told that CPT this info and he was just passing it on(Now, I don’t put a lot of stock into third party info and the COL has since retired. So, I won’t go there). I had to break it down to them and then I also contacted the CPT, whom I knew as well and explained to him where duties and responsibilities over lapped and where they separated. Based on your post I believe you are doing the right thing, but no, I have not seen anything like this recently. I recommend that you contact the Officers training NCO or Senior Non-Commissioned Officer in order to handle it at the lowest level or someone who knows the Captain personally to speak to him as it is harmful to spread bad information and it is detrimental to esprit de corps or the shared pride, loyalty, and fellowship of the US Army.

After reading some comments from below, I wish to add that, yes, it is possibly this Captain had a very bad experience with an NCO and it has soured his feelings towards the Corps, but some mentorship will go a long way. It's unfortunate that some enlisted are disrespectful to Officers and there is no place for it here, either.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2015 5:43 PM

2015-10-16T17:43:55-04:00

Not really a problem in the Guard. It's not unheard of for a lieutenant to have his plt sgt be his boss on the civy side of life. Kinda puts things in perspective.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Oct 16 at 2015 8:56 PM

2015-10-16T20:56:22-04:00

Haters gotta hate. Lead by example and keep those standards high within the NCO Corps. The vast majority of those Officers with that attitude of their NCO's will peak in their careers at the junior levels and then find the door out. Hopefully they don't poison the minds of too many of their subordinates. We need all the quality Officers we can get. You just keep on keeping on.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2015 9:31 PM

2015-10-16T21:31:07-04:00

I've been on both sides having had Navy chiefs that had my back and another that if he had a longer knife, would have pushed it further. I have had fantastic relationships with most of my chiefs. Much of my leadership style is due to their mentorship. I couldn't thank them enough when they left. When I started, I received advice from a retired CMC. He said, "Keep your mouth shut and be a sponge." I took his advice and it payed dividends. I learned so much more that I probably would have otherwise. I believe the one good thing the Navy does in the Surface Warfare Community is have Ensigns report with very limited knowledge. It forces you to rely on your chief and tech manuals.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2015 10:40 PM

2015-10-16T22:40:19-04:00

At Coast Guard OCS, Cadets have an Officer and an Enlisted (CPO+) sponsor, who stop in a couple times and give them advice - no instructors involved. Every Chief I spoke to - and in the class I sponsored - the O sponsoring the class told them exactly the same things: Enlisted personnel are not to be trusted, they will scuttle your career every time they get a chance, they are always up to shenanigans...

In the maritime services, there have ALWAYS been rivalries between O and E - but it seems to be getting petty and vindictive nowadays. I always tried to deal with it on a case by case basis... and make sure I could point to examples of "blue-on-blue" acts of ass-hattery, where O's screwed over O's, and E's Blue Falconed E's.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2015 11:15 PM

2015-10-16T23:15:14-04:00

I've had an amazing experience working with my NCOs. I had some fantastic PSGs before I commissioned, as well as a great one when I was PL. It made me confident and it makes planning and executing missions enjoyable. When I first commissioned my mentors were mostly NCOs and some warrants. Now I have a good network of both. A room of NCOs with decades of experience have probably encounter more problems and scenarios then you could think of off hand. I've always felt comfortable asking questions and for clarification. Bottom line, Take pride in what your doing and show appreciation toward others who help you and everyone's more willing to help out. Team work gets the job done that much smoother!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2015 8:29 AM

2015-10-17T08:29:15-04:00

I really think it comes from some officer that forget NCOs are people from all backgrounds too. Many with degrees before joining. But they judge by rank. Some that could easily be officers but chose a path based on passion. I have been asked many times why won't I become an officer and not because I don't respect them or not because I wouldn't enjoy more money, but I don't because I like to train and mentor Soldiers. That means young officers too.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Oct 20 at 2015 12:39 PM

2015-10-20T12:39:53-04:00

I only saw this once, but it was from an OCS candidate, I was given permission by the CO to have a little heart to heart talk with young man. One year later the young officer thanked me for setting him straight on talking to NCO's.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2015 12:40 PM

2015-10-20T12:40:59-04:00

I've seen the flipped where officers take NCOs and throw the under the bus. The officers I've seen do it all come from West Point. But all I can say for new officers is hold your NCOs ideas and advice close bc they been and seen shit and the experience will bring you along way

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2015 2:23 PM

2015-10-20T14:23:09-04:00

I never had the pleasure as a senior NCO. I pride myself on having a great relationship with the officers because we are suppose to be one team and I ensure that lines of communication are always good

Response by SSG Brian Kresge made Oct 20 at 2015 2:44 PM

2015-10-20T14:44:31-04:00

Maybe it's having moved to a staff job in the last two years, but sometimes there is condescension between lieutenants and senior NCOs, sometimes there is condescension between lieutenants and junior NCOs, in opposing directions. But this is the Guard, where that E-5/E-6 (ahem) has a masters degree and an incredible civilian job where that 2nd/1st Lieutenant is a recent graduate. Still, their role is completely different in terms of the NCO Corps in terms of scale and accountability, and my job, on paper, is to sustain and help carry their load.

And maybe, too, because I transferred to the log-dog world that it's a completely different paradigm. Between active duty infantry, Guard infantry, and now Guard staff, I may not have a sufficient frame of reference, even across the last 20 years, but my sense is that it's got to be situational. All of my infantry platoon leaders, XOs, company commanders, whereever they have come from, be it ROTC, Green to Gold after being NCOs, military academies, etc., have all been high quality leaders. Okay, sure, there were some poor ones, but by and large, I've been highly satisfied with the leadership I've seen and received from the Officer Corps.

And the same is generally true now in the sustainment world.

Where I do see animosity periodically: M-Day junior officers dealing with the condescension of senior Guard NCOs with technician jobs/AGR positions, or full-time senior officers dealing with M-Day enlisted/NCOs. It's occasional at most, however. More often than not, we have our duties and roles to fulfill, and there's a decent rapport between us all.

If there is a widespread problem, I am grateful to be in a place where it is not happening. Perhaps this is a military coming off of war footing grappling with a fresh set of junior officers now leading men who have been there and done that in a way they never will. Maybe we're coming to grips with the lapse in quality of recruit on the enlisted side and the lack of emotional maturity in some of our junior NCOs, especially those fast tracking to senior NCO positions? I don't know. All I can control is my end of the leadership bargain, which is to do my job so an officer doesn't have to, so that they can focus on realizing the commander's intent. Maybe it's generational, too; in the civilian workforce we're seeing significant challenges with millennials, who as a group struggle with accepting feedback and will now make up the bulk of our junior officers.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2015 2:58 PM

2015-10-20T14:58:59-04:00

Sounds like you're taking the right tack, and some officer instructors need some issues addressed by their superiors. I've rarely encountered such issues personally, although it comes up on occasion. One of the few issues I've had was a Captain shooting down inputs from enlisted then no more than a day or two later turning around and submitting the exact same proposal as her own ideas. Insult to injury, she was also prior enlisted. I called her out on it and received a verbal rebuke only injured pride can produce. But such is needed on occasion. Overall I believe most officers and NCOs that interact regularly enough do so well. Some that don't may need some pointers but most try, regardless of the branch.
So I say keep up your good work, and if more continue to come out of that location with that idea planted in their head it might be worthwhile to bring it to someone's attention.

Response by SGT Montana Crawford made Oct 20 at 2015 3:19 PM

2015-10-20T15:19:33-04:00

Disclaimer: I have not seen ALL of the Army. Now that that is out of the way...

I've only seen officers hung out to dry after they've gone off the reservation, or forgotten the well-being their men. I've only seen Officers string up NCO's after those NCO's earned terrible reputations on their own.

My two cents.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2015 3:38 PM

2015-10-20T15:38:24-04:00

I have only experienced this once, and it was from a O1 who didn't understand the concept of Chain of Command. NCO can just as easily build a distrust and hatred for officers as well. Especially those who let their authority get to there head. It's difficult to mentor, train, influence someone who thinks they know everything and refuses to be taught. This is not a one way street. The solution in my mind is a rank restructuring. What sense does it make to allow Cadets and 2nd Lts to have authority over a SGT whose boots have more time in service then they? Just a thought...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2015 3:53 PM

2015-10-20T15:53:56-04:00

It is my professional opinion that we must cut out these "shortcuts" to rational thinking at every opportunity possible.

Learn how to identify problem Soldiers, NCOs, and Officers, and help support the good ones. That whole "critical thinking" business that everyone makes a fuss about; it really works.

This officer that said this about NCOs is toxic. However, I have seen enough NCOs like that that his position is warranted. His failure is to assume that all NCOs will simply follow along and mold themselves after what they see.

Look around the Army. I think resistance to bullshit leadership at all levels is at an all-time high.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2015 4:15 PM

2015-10-20T16:15:13-04:00

"NCO's are *expletives* who will string you up or let you hang yourself in a heartbeat and not to trust them." I would tell these young officers to consider the source and ask questions of these officers for details. If 'their' NCO's had, in fact, '[strung them] up or let [them] hang [themselves]' so long as the mission wasn't compromised, they should've learned from it! If they didn't, again, consider the source. Mission first, people always!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2015 8:57 PM

2015-10-20T20:57:19-04:00

I don't string anyone up, but some only learn by failing. If my young Officers want to learn by other methods, I'm fine with that, too. SFC (P)

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 12:21 PM

2015-10-21T12:21:29-04:00

I wonder if it has anything to do with age difference. I am a prior E, and the overall perspective and attitude of younger military members is different from mine. If you're a young LT dealing with an older NCO, this may complicate things. This new entitled, spoiled, cry-baby generation - or what have you. Part of being a leader is earning trust in those around you. If your subordinates trust you, they'll look out for you and vice-versa. If an officer is concerned about being burned, he needs to really work to earn confidence in his people.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 12:40 PM

2015-10-21T12:40:37-04:00

I have had to deal with a lot of LTd before not being a platoon sergeant. I had one that went to West Point and he was one of the best to work with and train. He understood that he was new and did not know my job. I was a motor sergeant for my unit when I had him as one of the PLs a platoon. Always talking to me about maintenance and why his trucks were broken, and never understood what the hold up was but also understood that I was the subject matter expert. He was filling in as the company XO for 2 weeks and had to be the maintenance officer for those 2 weeks. He learned really fast what my job as a motor sergeant was and how the maintenance process works. From then on he had a better understanding of the logistical side of maintenance.

At the same time I had a 2LT that was a SFC before he became an officer and thought he knew everything about my job. Would go and cry to the commander when "his" truck was broken or a pacing item went down. Commander knew what the situation was before PL did because I had a great 1LT that was prior service (SFC) that let me do my job. Just had to tell her when a pacing item went down.

So I say it all depends on where they were before being an officer. Had some former infintry Soldier become officers that I had to deal with than knew what maintence was going through so tghe did not bother us. Unless we screws up.
But not all NCOs are willing to work with people that are 22-26 years old when they are in their 300-40s

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 1:27 PM

2015-10-21T13:27:35-04:00

I personally have seen and experienced some of this but my fellow NCOs did not help me. As an E5 in a top heavy Expeditionary Sustanment Command I gave PT which I am very serious about. Regularly I have CPTs, MAJs, and maybe 1 full bird every now and then, along with a handful of MSGs, SFCs, and a SGM, and a CW4. I was giving PRT and I was also promotable (even more reason to be on point), and I would have everyone yelling all types of things or talking and just acting unlike military soldiers. Everyone out ranked me so all I could do was push on. I had officer just quit and say this is stupid right in the middle of climbing drills. After promotion I stopped taking this crap and told everyone this is part of the Army and PRT is not going anywhere. If you want to leave I can't stop you but me as an NCO I will give you the best for the benefit of me and you. When high ranking officers participate in my PT sessions the motivate everyone else. This gives me a good mind about officers but when they upright and quit they undermine me and everyone I am trying to lead essentially leaving a path for quitters. I love to advise officers and help them and let them lead the way. This is the only quip pro quo allowed in the Army. When officers constantly stay around officers they forget the benefit of NCOs and the same the other way around. Sorry for the rambling.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 2:14 PM

2015-10-21T14:14:39-04:00

Look it at like this, the animosity between NCO's and Officers, is similar to that between Police Officers and Prosecutors. An NCO is a Police officer, they are on the ground and see everything, so when they believe something is, in their mind it is. Now when an Officer tells an NCO to do something that is against their view of what is, they tend to only see their opinion of what is, creating a negative void between the NCO's and Officer's opinions of each other and their abilities to lead.
The officers push to do what he says is similar to a Prosecutor, if the Prosecutor does not have enough cold hard evidence he will refuse to take it to trial until he gains that evidence. I believe there is a bit more animosity between Officer and NCOs than Police Officers and Prosecutors, due to things like NCO's thinking new officers are just dumb college boys who paid their way through college and Officers thinking all NCOs are battle hardened murders who are only capable of brute force, It may be different in certain situations.
Though I believe this is a century long old battle, and in my opinion one of the only things I could see fixing this would be require Officers to be an NCO for 1-3 years before receiving their commission. Now I know people will disagree with me, saying if an officer is an NCO to long he may try to micromanage, or it may be detrimental to his career, preventing him from advancing further, to which neither I agree with. If a person is going to micromanage it does not matter if they were an NCO first or not they will do it because it is their way of leading. To the Second part I full heartedly disagree, the best officers I have ever had were all prior enlisted, obtaining between the ranks of Specialist and Sergeant First Class, some evening direct commissioning from SFC. I believe this characteristic will bridge the gap between enlisted and officers due to the officer's having an understanding of what its like to be in the shit, rolling around with no sleep. I believe this drives officers to not only better themselves, but also allows them to better understand their Soilders and what motivates them.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 2:15 PM

2015-10-21T14:15:16-04:00

Good Afternoon
You and your Chain of Command must be a unified front to stop misinformation of junior officers. Lead by example and actions. It is easy to stereotype, but difficult to communicate clearly and concisely. Always lead from the high-ground.
SGM Cammuse(Ret)

Response by LTC John Wilson made Oct 21 at 2015 2:18 PM

2015-10-21T14:18:20-04:00

This is a problem with two sides. I've been in and around the Army before, during, and what appears iis the almostafter the GWOT. The junior officers and NCOs are not quite the same quality as we had before 9/11 and in the few years after. In that "prehistoric" period, the professional bond between the officers and NCOs was much stronger. That faded during the war as repeated deployments, personnel turnover, a hasty leadership training and development program truncated for the necessities of war, and a more rapid NCO promotion rate, have led to a less mature, less experienced NCO force (compared to what I was used to). The Captains in question came up as LTs during this same period. They were taught an older philosophy to place a great deal of trust in an NCO corps that increasingly lacked the professional mettle to bear the responsibility...they couldn't carry the ball as well as their predecessors.

The officer corps as well has rewarded more caustic leaders who "got results" by driving their Soldiers rather than leading them. They sacrificed Soldiers' well being for personal promotion without concern for the long term ramifications of acheiving their short term goals. Junior officers raised in such an environmnet follow the model presented...and NCOs in the small unit will "frag" a jerk -- leave them hanging out to dry...to fall on their face.

We need each other. Both parties need to work to repair the relationship. Officers need to trust, verify, and reward. Expect the excellence, develop excellence, and reward excellence.

NCOs pick up that torch. Live worthy of the standards set by the generations before you. Be patient with the officers.

Most of all, don't expect perfection...it's exhaustive to achieve and impossible to maintain. We're human. Mistakes are inevitable. We'll make far greater progress as a team if we assume the other has a positive intent.

Response by 1st Lt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 2:22 PM

2015-10-21T14:22:58-04:00

SSgt Cherry,

I was enlisted for several years before getting my commission and the advise I pass on to all the new Lt is to find an E-5 or E-6 (supply SSgt are preferred) and buy them whatever they drink and work for them for a month. Then if they don't kill anyone find the local #-9 buy him/her a case of whatever they drink and sit on their coattails for at least 6 months. Please pass on this advise to your newbies. As for the Capt, from a medical stand point there is a condition a lot of officers suffer from called "Cranial rectal inversion". Sometimes it is fatal so cut him some slack and suggest he finds a good proctologist to help him with this disorder.

Rob Fares (Clinical nurse)

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 2:23 PM

2015-10-21T14:23:16-04:00

I have been at Fort Gordon now for over eleven years and haven't really experienced what you're referring to. While I'm in the Navy and not the Army, I know that our JO's here NEED the knowledge and leadership of the senior NCO's.

My recommendation would be to inform those JO's who have received poor advice from NCO's chalk it up as those NCO's not being given proper mentorship and to call them out on it. Have those JO's take the NCO's to their leadership and express how they feel to their leadership. I'm 100% sure one of two things will happen. Either they will sing a different tune or they will notify their leadership of how they feel and it will get addressed.

JO's require training from senior NCO's. As a Chief, it's not only my job to train the junior Sailors, but also the JO's and it MUST be done both in a professional manner and with genuine interest.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 3:13 PM

2015-10-21T15:13:05-04:00

Any Officer who says that is sorely mistaken. the Officer / NCO relationship is critical to the success of the mission.
Sure- There are Bad NCOs out there, but there are bad officers as well.
Putting everyone in a Group into one category shows prejudice and ignorance.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 3:21 PM

2015-10-21T15:21:19-04:00

The best advice I can give is to be the example. There are those that exceed the standard, those that meet the standard, and those that fail to meet the standard, regardless of whether they are NCOs or officers. My current OIC is a LTC and told me when he walked into my unit that he had a bad taste in his mouth about NCOs in general. I told him it's terrible that he's been failed by his NCOs in the past but I've also been failed by officers and knew how he felt. I didn't let it bring me down and kept performing my duties to the best of my ability but I understand it isn't specific to the NCO or officer corps. I also told him I'd make it my mission to change his mind and I believe that I have earned his respect. I handle my own lane so that he doesn't have to and I communicate with him regularly. Stick to the NCO creed and you'll be ok. If I caught wind of an officer making that kind of statement, I would definitely pull them aside and have a conversation with them. I would explain that while I can't change their mind it's highly inappropriate to publicly degrade another Soldier.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 3:58 PM

2015-10-21T15:58:48-04:00

This is a growing trend in the military as a whole. The problem stems (at least in the Navy) from the "blurring of the lines" mindset between the senior enlisted ranks and the officer wardroom. The idea was the CPO Mess had the experience and the knowhow to perform a lot of the officer functions in terms of daily duties and watch stations aboard ship. That has morphed into a philosophy that the senior enlisted ranks are the individuals running the command. How many times have you heard "T Chiefs run the Navy?"

They might have the experience and the technical knowhow but the part they are missing is the language contained in the United States Code that sets for what a person who holds a commission is ultimately accountable for. The same level of responsibility does not exist for Senior Enlitsted. Your second point about hanging people out to dry rings true because the pattern trends towards people calling the IG or some other form of complaint that boils down to someone not getting what they think they are entitled to.

Lastly,

From a Navy perspective, the other side of the coin is the Senior Enlisted ranks used to carry a certain level of respect because they were always the older generation that had been around the block so they were always more mature and more experienced. In today's world of fast paced advancements (I say this from experience), you lost a lot of that because the Senior Enlisted are not much older than the junior officers. How long does it take to get 20 years of experience? 20 years... You can't teach that

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 4:38 PM

2015-10-21T16:38:25-04:00

I definitely have seen this from both NCO's and Officers. Generally, the BEST officers are ones who at one time were enlisted because they know the job and know what needs to be done and generally, the best way to perform most given tasks. The worst officers I have personally encountered in my 26 years are those who took a direct commission after college. Unfortunately now days that is mostly the case since in the last few years, there has been a push to get officers in and generally, if they have the grades, it is pretty much a done deal. With that newly commissioned LT comes an attitude that no matter what an experienced NCO says, they are in charge and because they sport that shiny new gold bar, what the officer says, goes! And i can also tell you from experience that after several attempts to mentor young officers and being ignored or just plain told to shut up is where the NCO WILL just let the officer fall on his/her face without a second thought.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 5:29 PM

2015-10-21T17:29:06-04:00

Everything is perspective and everything should be taken with a grain of salt. These guys/gals sounds like they had some experiences and spreading to people either becasue they want give good "advice" or becasue they truly feel this way about NCO's.
As soon as I read this it reminds me of the soldier who swears up and down to not ever get married because your spouse will cheat on you, take everything, leave you for nothing; I am sure we have heard it all and know soldiers who say this. I pity the fool who decides not to marry because he chooses to believe the guy who has had 3 failed marriages, decide to marry or not marry not becasue of few experiences you have heard or even a trend you have seen. Decide to marry becasue you believe you can take control of you own future and the relationships and bonds you create. To circle back, an NCO and officer is a lot like being married - the relationship must be created and supported on trust, commitment, dedication and faith in each other (sounds corney but true). Just as in a family its not the Ma or Dad who suffer the most when stuff doesn't work out it the kids or in this example the Joes when NCO and an officer can't get a good professional relationship on track. So to close with this crazy analogy of marriage and NCO/Officer relationship anyone can change someones opinion and a good NCO can change Officers opinion and good Officer can change opinion of an NCO, sometimes takes the right one (same thing in marriage).

So how do you handle when NCO or Officer has distaste for the other. Do what your meant to do

Work hard and be nice to people
Do not carry grudges
Lastly, take care of your people, they will take care of you, and the rest will take care of itself

Be careful whose advice you get, but be patient with those who supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, and recycling it for more than it's worth.

Response by MSG Tim Gray made Oct 21 at 2015 6:12 PM

2015-10-21T18:12:06-04:00

I've seen a lot of finger pointing (to include here on RP) I see where officers use their rank to justify their position. And that is not an accomplishment or "correct answer", any more than an NCO who has to dish out punishment on a subordinate because they didn't train a soldier right to begin with. We are failing each other with that type of relationship. Every young officer, to include those who are new to an assignment should receive the best any NCO has to offer. Officers cannot accomplish the unit mission without the total support of their NCO's. Equally NCO's cannot accomplish the same without the authority and direction of selfless serving commissioned officers.

Response by LTC Richard Cassem made Oct 21 at 2015 9:15 PM

2015-10-21T21:15:18-04:00

Preach the good news and live what you preach, SSG Cherry. I've seen good and bad officers and NCOs. All you can do is be one of the food guys and try to recognize and mitigate the bad guys. A good officer will be careful about who he trusts, and listen carefully to the NCOs he does trust

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 9:27 PM

2015-10-21T21:27:21-04:00

I have never experienced it, and quite frankly I have cherished the mentoring roles NCOs have provided me throughout my career. It doesn't stop @ lieutenant, but with Company cdr/1SG as well, along with a great emphasis on teamwork to lead the company/battery/troop. I honestly would challenge the thought that NCOs will hang officers to dry. If it happened to them, most likely they did not approach the relationship in the right manner, or those NCOs has a poor previous relationship with an officer and got burned themselves. It really is a self fulfilling prophecy. LTs will get out of the relationship what they put into it. NCOs are responsible for individual and crew training, and individuals include those young officers as well.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 9:31 PM

2015-10-21T21:31:13-04:00

Yes I have seen this behavior from NCO's towards Officers. I find that the cause of it is three-fold:
1. Considering the NCO's role, specifically, the NCO Creed: it is their duty to be the "backbone" and "the NCO will assist the Officer in accomplishing their tasks. The Officer will not need to help the NCO accomplish theirs." In a nutshell, they have the pride of being a part of the Corps of Enlisted that "work for a living", and therefore become arrogant with that position. They come to think that because they "work for a living" that they are the one that gets things done.
2. Typically, (but not in every case), the NCO gets his position due to merit, not education. He has to earn his title every step of the way after years of experience, whereas, the Officer (while he DID have to complete OCS) was given his position of leadership without having to serve for years to get the same experience. Which, one can imagine, would upset anyone who has worked hard to gain his military tenure to see someone above him who didn't have to "pay their dues."
3. Lastly, again with the education (which once again does not apply to all NCO's): NCO's tend to be anal towards Officers because the Officer is educated and the NCO is not.....or not as much. Since the Officer had to have a higher level of education, this actually intimidates some NCO's, and rather than showing it in the traditional way of acting intimidated, they go the other way and overcompensate by acting superior in their feelings of inferiority. I cannot stress enough though: THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO ALL NCO's. I have known many NCO's who have Bachelors and Masters degrees that simply CHOSE to be Enlisted or to STAY Enlisted, due to job description, time in grade, pride of remaining in the NCO Corps, etc.....and I find no fault in this.
In closing, there is one final thing that tends to contribute to an NCO's coming to hate the Commissioned and that is when you meet a Commissioned Officer that genuinely IS arrogant about HIS education and/or Commission. It's just a textbook case of letting their position go to their head, which, as I explained earlier with the Enlisted, can happen to anyone. To finally answer the question though after all the explanation and foreshadowing: when I come across this, what I normally do is let the arrogant party (Enlisted OR Commissioned) have their illusions of superiority, so long as they are subordinate and get the job done right. As long as you follow the directives, accomplish the task and do so respectfully in a military manner, I don't care who you think is in charge. In the event that the feelings of animosity become an issue to cohesion though, then I find that the military method is the best way: first try to meet one-on-one, man-to-man with them offline and hash it out. If this fails, then find an NCO and an Officer of equal or superior rank and re-confront the problem semi-offline. If this fails, take it to higher up with formal documentation and everything. Normally, if the first attempt doesn't work, then the 2nd usually won't either, but it's best to try it first before going straight to step 3 to avoid disciplinary action.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Oct 21 at 2015 11:53 PM

2015-10-21T23:53:42-04:00

The attitudes of many enlisted have changed from the time I was a new private to the time I was a 2LT and I believe much of it stems from 'NCOs, backbone of the Army.' We have won battle after battle with the system we have set up and both officers and enlisted have to have the other; one should never be taught as better than the other. A significant problem in my eyes is lack of learning and understanding the other's lane. I find my job as a field grade officer much easier when I understand the role of the NCOs around me and trust that I do not need to do their job and that they will get it done. That trust must go both ways and it seems more today than 23years ago that is not always the case.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 4:55 AM

2015-10-22T04:55:12-04:00

I've had the benefit of working with some excellent NCOs that have mentored me. I think a lot of the resentment, however, comes from the disconnect between the experience and levels of responsibility. NCOs often seek to trivialize the position of junior officers due to their lack of experience, and junior officers often are guarded or reluctant to assume responsibility because of the low expectations that are set for them. This isn't the way it's supposed to operate, although I can see the argument for giving more deference to the NCO with more experience. The Army needs to retool its structure to either empower the officer to ACTUALLY be the decisionmaker, and accept the risks that may come without, or remove the officer altogether and allow the NCO to run the show while the officer observes and learns. An organization can never be functional under the conflict of interest that arise when you are being trained by the same person whose performance you evaluate - that has never made any sense to me. It relies on informal relationships that undermine the chain of command and make the scope of responsibility of both officers and NCOs unacceptably vague.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 7:50 AM

2015-10-22T07:50:20-04:00

I can tell you first-hand that I have met the most unprofessional Officers and corrupt Non-Commissioned Officers located at Fort Gordon. After my MMRB, going through as an MOS-T, I experienced "hazing" or "Ranger Games" at it's finest. I was all aware of what was going on considering I was reclassing from 11B so I had seen these games before. They were thick as thieves when IG came down on them and temporarily moved the one of many toxic Leaders in A-369.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 1:02 PM

2015-10-22T13:02:52-04:00

Talking Navy here, but I've never encountered such a thing in 20+ years, going from enlisted to officer ranks. We learn as junior officers how important it is to listen to the Chief Petty Officer (E-7) who fulfills that mentorship role. I've met a lot of officers who did not think much of their Chiefs for various reasons, but I've never heard it said that they would "throw you under the bus".

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2015 10:27 AM

2015-10-23T10:27:40-04:00

My last unit was a NIGHTMARE for this. It was all out war between NCOs and Officers. Officers trying to ruin NCOs careers and vice versa. They started keeping little books on each other trying to frame up paperwork on each other. The officers were fresh (including the commander who had no prior experience, literally just the first one to complete OCS got the spot). They disregarded input from senior NCOs, and when NCOs tried harder to make themselves heard and a battle ensued. The officers made a big show of ousting the 1SG, and then slowly 4 E-7s one by one and they dismantled the unit (not literally dissolved the unit but all the drama devastated the unit from an inside perspective). Some survived. Then they fired back and the LTs began getting pulled for investigations also. Investigations all over the place, and most of them were just about bad blood. Was a terrible environment for soldiers to be in, everyone else just tried to duck their head and not go down with the rest. New unit is like night and day! It has it's own issues but the harmony between the leadership is perfect. Officers don't step on NCOs toes, NCOs don't outshine their PLs and the Commander, neither are trying to attack each other and they have a solid unified front out in front of soldiers. What a relief. The last thing you want to do as an officer OR an NCO is start a grudge match battle over egos, nobody wins.

Response by SGT Jamison Calloway made Oct 24 at 2015 9:34 PM

2015-10-24T21:34:16-04:00

If Thinking career would consider becoming an officer if not nco is the way to go.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 11 at 2015 3:55 PM

2015-12-11T15:55:04-05:00

TRADOC is not the real army.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2017 12:58 PM

2017-01-20T12:58:25-05:00

No. Never experienced it. Maybe it's a Navy thing. I had very close working relationships with my senior NCOs as a young officer, could not have been successful without them. They made me who I am.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2017 1:15 PM

2017-01-20T13:15:07-05:00

I have experienced the animosity towards NCO's before, I've had officers that were very doubting of any enlisted person's abilities they always had to place butter bars in charge of every aspect. The best way I've handled it is to show them what an NCO's role is in leading/training troops and demonstrate that you gained your position/rank by demonstrating expertise. Many fresh LT's (1st and 2nd) seem to not fully understand the role of the NCO, and the only ones they've seen had been drill sergeants (which may have left a bad taste in their mouth).
I have seen many NCO's with distaste towards officers, and it rubs off on their troops creating poor working environments. I try to educate all troops in my influence to work with the officers, not gripe about their orders/ideas or try to get around them.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2018 8:59 PM

2018-07-11T20:59:11-04:00

Sadly, I have and it wasn’t from the officers. Most officers respect and trust thier NCOs, until they get burned. When I left the NCO as a SFC and put on the gold bar (I hate the term butter bar) I reported to my unit as a new officer from BOLC. Within the first 90 days I was spoken down to and disrespected by NCOs. From SSG to MSG. All because it seemed to me that they wanted to “get it in on an Officer” while they could until I made CPT and they had to respect me. This really frustrated me, especially after having been a SNCO. I felt it my mission to mentor and educate these NCOs on the critical role of the officer and how they have an opportunity to set an expectation with these young officers that NCOs are vital members of the military profession. If all you do is haze and pick on the new LT, you are setting future NCOs up for failure. Because that LT will grow up to be a CPT, the Company Commander, then BN CO, then BN Commander and all they will remember is that NCOs treated them like crap and failed to be the professionals thier creed says they are. It’s up to young NCOs like you to remain the stewarts of the profession. Lastly, remember as an NCO you’re more of a coach than a mentor. A young officer needs another officer to mentor them. They need NCOs to teach them the profession, teach what it is thier Soldiers do, and support them as they develop and learn. Great post!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2020 8:38 AM

2020-02-01T08:38:19-05:00

I was an E-6 way back in the day before I got my commission. Maybe that’s why my PSG and me got along so well. He still mentored me as a 2LT PL but at the same time I never really expected him to do anything I hadn’t done myself while I was enlisted. I think my other SLs appreciated that I had been in their shoes as well having been a squad leader myself. There were jokes but it was all in good fun, and since I don’t have a thin skin, I would throw it right back and we’d both laugh. At the end of the day, I would die for my NCOs I had as a PL.