Old corrective training vs the New corrective training! What are your thoughts?

2015-06-04T17:20:14-04:00

So I was speaking with an NCO from another unit and he was telling me about how the army doesn't work like it use to and "back then" if you messed up you got dropped and then that was that. Then he said he didn't understand why the Army is going to the paperwork aspect of counseling more when as a soldier he would rather get smoked. He also said the Army is getting softer and smarter. Do you feel this is true? I personally believe the Army is turning towards a direction that will benefit service members after they leave the service. Please let me know your opinions!

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Jun 4 at 2015 5:23 PM

2015-06-04T17:23:43-04:00

What happen to dropping a soldier by an NCO? I've seen it happen on several different occasions!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2015 5:35 PM

2015-06-04T17:35:00-04:00

In the line units I have served in, we skull drug Joe if he messed up...but the punishment fit the crime. A smart remark would probably get you 50; miss first formation and the pain won't stop until COB.

Right now I am serving in a TRADOC unit, and now we are on a short leash.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jun 4 at 2015 6:25 PM

2015-06-04T18:25:39-04:00

I do not agree with "dropping" or "smoking" a Soldier right off the bat and in fact, I don't even do that unless its the last result which resulted from a SM not listening to me because they chose not to. We are leaving in a learning environment in which we must investigate, evaluate, ask questions and determine a plan and execute that plan and evaluate again. How can we do anything if we say, "oh PVT Snuffy was late again so I will just smoke the living dog crap out of him and I expect that will fix everything". How about we ask PVT Snuffy why is he late? It might be a serious situation that awaits for him to come home to every night. As counselors, we counsel; we find out the problem and we fix it.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2015 6:50 PM

2015-06-04T18:50:42-04:00

I'm into stuff that works - and frankly that is different for every Soldier.
My approach is much more custom. I like to come up with something new every time; keep the men guessing. You'd be surprised how a "potpourri" approach is very effective at deterring low-level jackassery that used to get you some push-ups or flutter kicks. NOBODY wants to be on the receiving end of these. Some of these sessions are legendary and have taken on a life of their own.
I smile every time I hear one of these tales told as the E-4 mafia polices itself with threats of a Badger 7 "invented correction".

The old stand-bys are still in my repertoire, but creativity has bought me all sorts of credibility.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jun 4 at 2015 8:08 PM

2015-06-04T20:08:55-04:00

Nothing wrong with a good, God I actually have to say, "Old Fashioned", Face beating. I think its the perfect motivational corrector for everything from sloppiness to tardiness to stupidness. Granted after a few repeats you need to resort to the counseling statement and more formal corrective actions to insure the SM is put on the right track to recovery if an issue becomes systemic.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jun 4 at 2015 8:27 PM

2015-06-04T20:27:20-04:00

"Old School" corrective training had a few benefits too. First off you only used it for really light stuff - tardiness, sloppiness and stupidness as I said in another response here. Section and platoons used it as bonding tool, "one goes down, we all go down" and that included the PL/PSG. You dish it out and you let the troops see you can take it - bumps you up a notch or 2 on the respect-o-graph. After that, you or your PSG/1SG chat with the individual, make sure its a one time thing and send them on their way - gets a little one-on-one time and a chance to make sure your soldier is OK.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2015 10:14 PM

2015-06-04T22:14:44-04:00

The Army doesn't work like it used to and it IS getting softer, mainly because NCOs are not enforcing the standard. The "new" Army soldiers are not as resilient as those in the past (I recently had to implement a sleep plan for a "hard charging" SSG while in the field. While this was the right thing to do, I'm twice his age and he just can't keep up with the optemo...not an isolated instance and not restricted to NCOs). Excuses and questions have become the new normal.
Smarter...? Yes and No. The average Soldier is far smarter than the average Soldier 20 years ago. However, the PCCs that those NCOs were taught in the 90s they can still do automatically with their eyes closed...the "new" Amy version has to be remediated on this basic skill because they can't retain it.
Your closing statement is a disturbing perception that I see more and more...that the Army is somehow supposed to be in the business of training you to be successful in a civilian skill once you leave the military. The Army's primary task is to close with and destroy the enemy in order to protect our nation...anything you pick up along the way that assists you when you complete your term of service is a bonus, not an entitlement.

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2015 10:46 PM

2015-06-04T22:46:34-04:00

I sure as hell hope not. Id rather get smoked. Atleast then it benefits me to that im getting physically stronger.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2015 11:03 PM

2015-06-04T23:03:08-04:00

Smoking is not really effective if the Soldier is a PT stud. Just saying...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2015 6:33 PM

2015-06-05T18:33:20-04:00

The army is changing and the bottom line is leaders need to get with the program. Yes, back then being "smoked" was the desired punishment of choice but also a lot of leaders abused it and a lot of time it didn't really fixed the issue. Now, leaders have to actually engage the subordinate in a formal manner which should let the support know that their actions were wrong and how to go about and fixing it and the consequences if they don't. As far as the Army getting softer, well I can tell you it's not due to not allowed to "smoke" a subordinate but that's another can of worm which I think has to do more with discipline.

Response by CPL Zachariah Chitwood made Jun 5 at 2015 6:41 PM

2015-06-05T18:41:52-04:00

I was a line guy for almost a decade, until I was shackled to a desk in a HQ Platoon while outprocessing. So my opinion may be a little different than others.

In a line unit, if one of my guys was unprofessional, he pushed until my arms hurt. PT was just the way it was. It's a group of hard men, so discipline is equally hard.

While I was attached to this miserable HQ Platoon (no offense!), I saw a completely different side. Everyone was soft on subordinates that lost their bearing and counseling statements seemed to be the "Be all, end all". It drove me insane.

In complete honesty, I think your NCO is correct. When I enlisted, we wore BDUs, shined our boots and had the fear of God in us if we had stubble on our face... As I went through the different transitions, I noticed a few things.

One, soldiers were coming from BCT to my unit, completely out of shape. How is that possible?! Two, quite a few soldiers didn't understand that a Specialist wasn't a PFC, and that a Corporal could hem them up. What's worse, when we DID get on our soldiers as Team Leaders, it was never taken seriously. Soldiers were free to talk on a first name basis (with MSG and above) and there was constantly the issue of the quality of soldier we were working with, because the Army became more worried about making their quota. But that's just this guy.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2015 7:52 PM

2015-06-05T19:52:12-04:00

Just because the army is getting softer, doesn't mean that they are getting smarter.

There is book smarts. Then there is street smarts!

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2015 9:57 PM

2015-06-05T21:57:47-04:00

during the "breaking in" process, I am all for it. As much as it sucks at the time, you're embracing the suck with your team, squad, platoon, whatever. It's definitely an induction to the military and part of the tradition, one of the reasons why I and I'm sure others enlisted. However, eventually the soldier needs to get he/she shouldn't do xy and z ONLY because he/she will get smoked. He/she shouldn't do it because it's a)stupid b)wrong c) dangerous or other.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 5 at 2015 10:05 PM

2015-06-05T22:05:22-04:00

I talked to an old CSM and said made one mistake, of which I don't remember, but his 1SG made him cut the grass of the parade field with scissors. I said I bet you did not make that mistake again. He replied you bet your ass I didn't.

Response by MAJ Anne McGee made Jun 5 at 2015 10:18 PM

2015-06-05T22:18:33-04:00

I always felt that written counseling was underrated and under utilized. The counseling statement is not just for documenting a screw-up but for documenting success, can show a soldier his progression over time and for NCO'S become a record to base their NCOERs.