Once a soldier knowingly takes an APFT for Record, can it be removed?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 03:50:04 -0400

By reg, Traditional national guard soldiers are only required to take MINIMUM one APFT a year. My Battalion takes two for record, one every six months. No one knows where this policy came from or can find anything in writing stating we have to. It’s commanders discretion and this is the way it’s always been.

I have a soldier. Notorious for failing PT. Hasn’t passed for three years straight until I became the training NCO. I trained with him for five months and the day of his ETS (FEB 2018), he finally passes for record. Hallelujah!! He re enlists, finally gets pinned as an E-5. Well deserved.

Come May 2018, three months later- we have our unit record APFT. He KNOWINGLY takes it for record again. Fails. I input his data into the system and flag him for not passing.

He volunteers for ADOS, which in my BN is a privilege. You must be in good unit standing with no flagging actions to be placed on orders.

I tell him he can’t go on orders Bc he’s not passing. He said, “I spoke to the readiness NCO and she said the last APFT doesn’t count.” I go into the system and he’s not flagged anymore. Come to find out, the readiness NCO removes the flag and APFT completely. Reason being- he already took his one APFT in February so there’s no reason why he should have taken it in May. I find the hard copy of the 705- it shows his raw scores but doesn’t designate diagnostic or record AND is not signed by any NCOIC.

Who’s in the wrong here?

Yes- he didn’t have a 8 month gap between records but the only reason why he took two was Bc he knowingly took two. Feb was to stay in service (he was already three years with no passing score) and May was to get back in track with the unit.

i understand doing what’s best for the soldiers interest, but I feel as if my integrity is being compromised. He got pinned as an NCO and that’s not something I believe should be taken lightly. Need advice!

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jul 27 at 2018 4:15 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 04:15:57 -0400

If the minimum amount of time between records had not elapsed, can't be another record.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2018 4:59 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 04:59:32 -0400

Check AR 350-1.

k. Soldiers must take a record APFT every 6 months for RA and AGR Soldiers, and annually for all other USAR and ARNG Soldiers. If a Soldier fails a record APFT, commanders may allow Soldiers to retake the test as soon as the Soldier and commander feel the Soldier is ready to test (not to exceed 90 days). A repetitive APFT failure occurs when a Soldier fails a record test, is provided adequate time and assistance to condition (not to exceed 90 days), and fails again.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jul 27 at 2018 6:19 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 06:19:06 -0400

"He KNOWINGLY takes it for record again. Fails. I input his data into the system and flag him for not passing."
" I find the hard copy of the 705- it shows his raw scores but doesn’t designate diagnostic or record AND is not signed by any NCOIC."

If its not recorded correctly on the 705, it never happened as far as an after action.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 27 at 2018 6:34 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 06:34:39 -0400

Follow the regulations. Number one, you do not have the documentation supporting a record. Two, it appears that he took the test outside of the guidelines for record performance. If these are the facts he has no record.

As for unit integrity, I may be wrong but there will be an electronic record of the change in the system regarding the code. If that is the case then you CO should have signed a release for the bar. If so the Commander supports the theory that the Soldier should not have taken a for record, end of story. I know that the Guard and Reserves are different in some aspects, I doubt they are with Bars. Thank you for your service.

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Jul 27 at 2018 6:49 AM

MAJ Javier Rivera — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 06:49:28 -0400

I would bring the issue to the CoC for their awareness and action. I see so many wrong things regarding this situation:

1. Flag removal. Only the commander can remove a flag! Who did it?

2. APFT administration. Like previously stated if not properly documented it didn’t happened! Only his DA705? Many or all of the others DA705? Only this APFT or is there a failure in the unit’s APFT administration process?

3. Note: there is no minimum of record APFT. As a commander I could have my unit do a monthly record APFT if desired. Not a smart decision.

4. Most important in my opinion: the subject NCO has no pride on been a Soldier/ NCO based on his behavior.

Response by 1SG Jeremy Evans made Jul 27 at 2018 8:49 AM

1SG Jeremy Evans — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:49:22 -0400

A great way to lower morale and trust in a unit is to have a perception of not enforcing standards. I can almost guarantee that other Soldiers have seen the fact that this NCO has recently, and historically, failed the APFT and is now being considered for the privilege of ADOS. What kind of message does this send to all the Soldiers and NCOs that are putting in the effort to maintain their physical fitness? I understand that even achieving minimum standards is still enough to get by in the army, but not everyone deserves a trophy.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 27 at 2018 9:01 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:01:58 -0400

OK, 1, Your Cdr can not do less than what regs state, but he can ask for more than the regs (they are guidelines after all. 2. The SM knew that there would be 2 AFPT in every year 3. The readiness NCO also knew that and evidently has blown off their responsibilities. 4. I believe (opinion) that this should be taken to the CDR or S3 for remedy ASAP. The Readiness NCO should be recommended for counseling to the CDR. This is so wrong, and the readiness NCO took the easy way out.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2018 11:04 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:04:09 -0400

You have zero proof he took a record APFT. That's why it got removed. It's not annotated on the 705 as a record.

Is it shady? Yes. But you have to have paperwork to prove things. That's why they harp on counseling with us in AD. If you don't have the paper trail when you want to bring up UCMJ on someone, legal is going to kick it back.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2018 11:46 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:46:25 -0400

Respectfully, unless it’s different than active duty, a few things don’t make sense,
You write that you flag the soldier, and the readiness NCO simply lifted his flag. However, from 600-8-2,

“b. The Soldier’s commander, a general officer, a commandant, or the head of a DA staff or field operating agency can direct the initiation of a Flag. Authentication of the DA Form 268 initiating the Flag will be in accordance with paragraph 2–5.”

“(1) Only officers authorized to direct initiation of a Flag may direct removal of a Flag (for example, the unit commander, a general officer, commandant, or head of a DA staff or field operating agency) unless otherwise directed by this regulation or Commander, HRC (AHRC–PDV–PS).”

That just doesn’t sound right. Additionally, his 705 wasn’t signed. So you might as well had numbers written on a napkin. The soldier was a PT failure for years. Respectfully, it sounds like your unit just isn’t...right.

Best of luck.

Response by LCDR Robert S. made Jul 27 at 2018 12:54 PM

LCDR Robert S. — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 12:54:11 -0400

It doesn't matter whether he knowingly took a second or not. The text of AR 350-1 says: "A minimum of 8 months will separate record tests with no more than 14 months between record tests for other RC Soldiers (less IRR)." It says "will separate" not "can separate". It doesn't say, "Soldiers can take a record test 3 months later if they do it knowingly." By regulation, it CAN'T be a record APFT, whether he thought it was or not. If the NCOIC had marked the hard copy as record and had signed it, it still wouldn't be a record APFT.

Response by LCDR Robert S. made Jul 27 at 2018 1:21 PM

LCDR Robert S. — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 13:21:17 -0400

It's worth noting that your battalion can (and probably should) administer two APFTs for record each year, in order to make sure that everybody gets a chance to take one within the 14 month maximum window. BUT, they should also make sure that they're following AR 350-1 and not considering an APFT inside the 8 month window as for record. It's definitely the commander's prerogative to make everybody come out and do the APFT as a unit twice a year, but it's not within his discretion to administer an APFT for record less than 8 months after a member has already taken a record APFT.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2018 10:08 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 22:08:07 -0400

Add on to original Post:
My COC decided to NOT include the 705 for this specific Soldier as it did not abide by the 8 month rule. That, and documentation was done incorrectly- not designated as record or diagnostic and not signed off by NCOIC.

Now - on to another issue.
Unit is scheduled to take 2 RECORD APFT's per year. Soldier's are within 8-14 month window in accordance with reg. Soldier's already has a passing APFT on file for the test, but take a second Record APFT- Fails.

Do you flag or not flag?

I've been inputting EVERY RECORD 705 into the system, pass or not. That way everything is documented and you can see trending. Now- my COC is telling me "DO NOT input the fails from the second testing who initially passed the first time". Basically to with hold information (supposedly to the Soldiers benefit).

But, for those who did pass- I can input in system. I don't even understand how this is fair?? So I'm picking and choosing which tests "count"?

I feel like my integrity is being compromised here. Pass or not, PT is an individual effort. We have Record APFT's the same month every year so it's not like they couldn't adequately prepare.

How do I approach this situation if my COC is all in agreeance, but i'm the only one taking a stance against it?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2018 11:01 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Sep 2018 11:01:04 -0400

AR 350-1 states: Soldiers in RC troop program units (TPUs) will take the APFT at least once each calendar year. A minimum of 8 months will separate record tests if only one test is given, with no more than 14 months between record tests.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2019 6:33 PM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Jul 2019 18:33:32 -0400

He shouldn't been discharged years ago. With that being said, the Army is all about the paper trail. If his most recent APFT is not documented properly then it holds no water.

Personally, you are in the right here. But the AR will say otherwise. Also, it's up to a unit commander how often you take an APFT. It's only required once per year for NG. That's the minimum. If the commander wants to do more he is entitled to. And if the Soldier is told it is for record, it is for record. Everything checks out but the paperwork. That NCOIC and retention NCO blew it. Yet another Soldier exploits the system due to a lack of attention to detail by a Leader...

Your moral compass is pointed in the absolute right direction. If the service was made up of NCOs like you, all would be right.