Once the COVID-19 vaccine becomes mandatory within the military, what type of separation will those refusing receive?

2021-07-26T15:37:38-04:00

This has been a topic a few of my coworkers and I have had, regarding COVID and the inevitable mandate for the vaccine within our ranks. While I understand the likelihood of the vaccine being mandatory currently, as an emergency approval, is unlikely... eventually that will not be the case and it will be mandated. What type of separation do you think those resisting will receive?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2021 3:48 PM

2021-07-26T15:48:12-04:00

Possible punishment under Article 92. Which could lead to an OTH.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2021 3:54 PM

2021-07-26T15:54:17-04:00

The devil is in the details, but once FDA approves a vax DOD will issue a directive with NCA onboard. This should include the RE and SEPS codes. They determine the nature of discharge. Only a dishonorable excludes VA and Educational benefits (A BCD can jeopardize Ed. benefits). As a start the SM's actions during the process will be a factor. Did they get NJP or punishment under UCMJ etc? They likely won't make it a punitive discharge unless warranted. It could be Admin or Medical for the good or convenience of the service. https://www.benefits.va.gov/benefits/character_of_discharge.asp

VA.gov | Veterans Affairs

Apply for and manage the VA benefits and services you’ve earned as a Veteran, Servicemember, or family member—like health care, disability, education, and more.

Response by SFC Stephen King made Jul 26 at 2021 4:01 PM

2021-07-26T16:01:43-04:00

Since everyone has an opinion I will pontificate mine. Wait and see. The VA has now made it mandatory for all who work there.

Response by LTC Eugene Chu made Jul 26 at 2021 4:06 PM

2021-07-26T16:06:04-04:00

Discharge may vary depending on individual service record. Here is a June 2021 Military Times article on what happened decades ago when some troops refused the anthrax vaccine.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2021/06/17/troops-who-refused-anthrax-vaccine-paid-a-high-price/

Troops who refused anthrax vaccine paid a high price

An unknown fraction of service members who were punished for refusing the anthrax vaccine in the late 1990s and early 2000s have sought to have their records corrected, but only a few have had success.

Response by SPC Joel Quey made Jul 26 at 2021 5:23 PM

2021-07-26T17:23:15-04:00

It'll probably vary all over the place. These things tend to have a lot of discretion from the commanding officer - not to mention from the JAG who act as prosecutors and defense, the people who make the decisions, etc. That's basically how the legal system works (in and out of the military).

And of course, the SecDef may step in and issue guidance.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2021 5:59 PM

2021-07-26T17:59:22-04:00

There will be exemptions like with everything. Let's be realistic. But if there's no legitimate reason, then they'll not be deployable. If you're not deployable, what is it 12 months, you get separated.

What's the separation code for people who don't meet standards? Probably that.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Jul 26 at 2021 7:20 PM

2021-07-26T19:20:06-04:00

It has already became quasi mandatory when commanders demand and publish policies and memos that you get it of suffer, lockdowns, loss of leave privileges, exclusion from NCOES and assorted other get or else pressure incentives. On some sites you can actually see these directives when shortsighted commander allow copies to be taken and posted. As for separations, I thing Big Army will have a hard enough time meeting retention requirements sooner if not already with the uptick of deaths in barracks, Toxic leadership running around unchecked and lack of true leadership and mentoring in the ranks. The cycle of manpower shortages is rolling around sooner than expected and any acceleration of discharges for these social experiments will just empty the ranks sooner.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2021 8:25 PM

2021-07-26T20:25:52-04:00

I remember those that refused the small pox vaccine got a summary courts martial but generally allowed to finish enlistment.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2021 8:36 PM

2021-07-26T20:36:31-04:00

At worst general and at best honorable I would imagine, if it were to stay at an admin sep level.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Jul 26 at 2021 11:26 PM

2021-07-26T23:26:31-04:00

It's highly likely you will not fare much better in the civilian employment world the way things are going. You should tell anyone turning down the vaccination that private employers are making lists of employees with vaccination dates. My employer is one of them. They say they are doing so to figure out if it is safe to return workers to the office based on if a certain % is vaccinated but my guess is employers will make it mandatory at some point. My Mother could not get into a retirement home until she got the COVID-19 shot and the shot was recommended against by her Doctor due to her asthma and respiratory condition. She bit the bullet and got the shot anyway as she feared another pandemic and being locked out of the retirement home more than any risk from the shot.

It sucks but there are a lot of civilians out there taking the vaccination because of fears of being ostracized or kicked to the curb. Shouldn't be that way but it is.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2021 12:05 AM

2021-07-27T00:05:00-04:00

Who knows? Guess it’s how the commander wants to handle it. I just saw where a bunch of Fort Knox soldiers who refused vaccination were handed out GOMARs for not wearing their masks on post per guidance for unvaccinated soldiers.

Just today the VA told all of us we have 8 weeks if title 38 positions (front line workers) to ge the vaccine series completed mandatory. If the VA is forcing this through (especially since Biden and the new VA secretary both said how pro union they were) then you can bet the writing is on the wall and it’s going to be mandatory any day now for military in my humble opinion.

I got my shots. My big conundrum right now is when they approve it for use for kids 12 and under will I have my small child get it knowing that covid so far in children has been asymptotic to mild symptoms when they contract it vs. adults. The wife is vaccinated. I’m vaccinated. Everyone I work with in my area in the VA is vaccinated. Big decision.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2021 12:44 AM

2021-07-27T00:44:46-04:00

I really don't think people are going to be separating in droves because of this. I remember the Anthrax vaccine unhappiness with people protesting, there is none of that this time. The biggest issue that most people have is that the approval process was rushed, once the full approval is complete, that's no longer an issue.

People are not willing to martyr their careers for a vaccine that everyone else will already be getting. On top of that, most places are starting to mandate vaccination in some for or other, and it becomes almost inevitable that you'll get the vaccine sooner or later

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2021 8:50 AM

2021-07-27T08:50:55-04:00

PO2 Robert Kelly - Since half this site has blocked me (nice echo chamber going on) and can't comment to your reply since someone on there has me blocked...on this point: "We know vaccines don’t work on immunosuppressed patients, like transplant recipients. If there’s a chance of protecting this population that has already endured so much we are morally obligated to pursue it. I do support the rights of people to refuse vaccinations but they should be sure to hug their parents as frequently as possible. Yep, got the anthrax vaccine in ‘88 along with bubonic plague. Still here.

What vaccines don't work on immunosuppressed patients? My daughter is 7, transplant recipient (almost 4 years post) and she's had as many vaccines as she can so far. She actually got her 2nd MMR prior to transplant since post transplant, they can't have live virus vaccines. Nor can I get my smallpox again unless I deploy 30 days or more. But she's had every vaccine she could so far. Post transplant, she really hasn't gotten sick that much. She got hospitalized once post because she had a fever, they did cultures and had to watch them 48 hours. Negative. They said it was just likely a GI thing (she was puking and had some diarrhea). Dec two years ago she had a cough for a month. If she gets a cold it lasts a little longer or stomach bug lasts longer on her than me. But she was even exposed to covid at daycare and didn't get it. About 2 months ago.

I'm not sure if it's vaccines or maybe she's just lucky and has a stronger immune system than other transplant recipients. They don't have a vaccine for kids her age for covid-19 so can't really say how it would work on transplant kids that age. I just wasn't sure what you meant by "vaccines don't work on transplant recipients." I know she's on immunosuppressants for the rest of her life. I've had to give them to her for 4 years on top of the other meds prior to transplant, peritoneal dialysis, albumin infusions, feeding pump, etc.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 27 at 2021 8:46 PM

2021-07-27T20:46:18-04:00

Jesus wept SSG- how damn many shots have you already received in the service? Where you given a pamphlet on them that stated what might/go/happen?? Have you ever deployed over-seas, that's another rotation of shots, probably not explained. You either follow the orders and take them, remember not even Ivory is 100%, only 99.4%, on suffer what ever consequences that give you. Normally no shots= no deployment and they threw out thousands of troops the past 2 years for that.

Response by 1SG Mitchell Smith made Jul 28 at 2021 10:47 AM

2021-07-28T10:47:19-04:00

Going to be a ride that most have taken ...ie...Anthrax vaccine or OUT. Some will die a slow death and the military want lose. As stated above, if you're not deployable these days, it's back on the city streets you go. Good luck in your fight if you so chose.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2021 9:26 PM

2021-07-28T21:26:50-04:00

I've been out of the military since 2014, but I'd imagine what will happen is similar to when we had the mandatory Anthrax vax back in the 90's. They forced everyone to start the series. I know some people were chaptered out because they refused.

All Federal agencies are requiring the COVID vaccinations for their employees, so I'd imagine this will be enforced in the DOD.

Response by Capt Henry Heater made Aug 1 at 2021 11:49 PM

2021-08-01T23:49:28-04:00

I enlisted in 1969. Within two days I had three innoculations in each arm. No one asked my permission. No one told me what they were for or explained any side effects. No one thought to whine and mutter something about personal freedom. Geesh.

Response by MSG William Wold made Aug 4 at 2021 7:22 PM

2021-08-04T19:22:34-04:00

As a senior NCO I felt obligated to get the shot. Getting the Anthrax shot put me in the hospital. Every year the Flu shot put me under for 2 days. I thought maybe I'm getting to old for this. Retired in 04. I never got another flu shot until 2019, and never had so much as a sniffle. That flu shot did nothing. March 2021 VA gave me the first of 2 Pfizer Covid shots. The first one did nothing. 32 days later I get the second one. 14 hours later I had a high temp, cold sweat. Went to bed slept 12 hours, woke up, ate, went back to bed for another 12 hours. When I woke, it was like nothing ever happened.

Response by SGT Deborah Jones-deleon made Aug 5 at 2021 10:01 PM

2021-08-05T22:01:08-04:00

Unbelievable. It is against our rights to mandate this bs. Soldiers better get an honorable discharge.

Response by PO2 Harold Ashton made Aug 8 at 2021 8:16 PM

2021-08-08T20:16:03-04:00

Texas hospital chief: We're fighting two wars — One against Covid, the other against stupidity

Dr. Joseph Varon, the Chief of Critical Care at United Memorial Medical Center, describes what it is like on the front lines of the fourth wave of the Coronavirus pandemic. Texas and Florida combined account for more than one-third of new hospitalizations nationwide.

https://www.msnbc.com/craig-melvin/watch/texas-hospital-chief-we-re-fighting-two-wars-one-against-covid-the-other-against-stupidity [login to see] 52?cid=sm_npd_ms_fb_ma&fbclid=IwAR1UnsKL9noRMzgCT20UuxcP_K7rN0TpTWGCis78nT3m5rdJuSUZPXLALY4

Texas hospital chief: We're fighting two wars — One against Covid, the other against stupidity

Dr. Joseph Varon, the Chief of Critical Care at United Memorial Medical Center, describes what it is like on the front lines of the fourth wave of the Coronavirus pandemic. Texas and Florida combined account for more than one-third of new hospitalizations nationwide.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2021 6:13 AM

2021-08-09T06:13:00-04:00

USAR is trying to mandate it by end of FY. I saw a notification that says they're trying to get the FDA to fully approve it by end of this month so it seems they're trying to get their ducks in a row, legally speaking, as to try and say look it's fully approved now get it. Commands have a hard enough time with retention as is, so we'll see how quick they are to try and separate.

Response by SFC James Hudgers made Aug 18 at 2021 12:00 AM

2021-08-18T00:00:21-04:00

What about the ones retiring in less than 180 days. Are they really going to pull back their retirement just to separate them?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2021 9:02 AM

2021-08-26T09:02:16-04:00

I intend to ask for a religious exemption. As of now, its an order with no guidance on enforcement, and is a massive political mess.

I ask my fellow Military Members to offer support to us who don't want the vaccine. Even if you have had it or want it, please support us. We have our reasons for not wanting it, we are not okay with this to the point of risking our careers.

Response by SFC Kurt Brunken made Aug 26 at 2021 9:38 AM

2021-08-26T09:38:23-04:00

Id ask, is it a lawful order first.

Response by PO1 Don Uhrig made Aug 26 at 2021 10:18 AM

2021-08-26T10:18:22-04:00

The devil will be in the details. There may be those who object for religious reasons and be awarded an administrative discharge. There may be those at high medical Rick and be awarded a medical discharge. And there will be others who simply choose to disobey a direct order or directive and could be awarded a dishonorable or bad conduct discharge.

The bottom line is in the military working environment and the nature of our missions, members who are unvaccinated are variant factories and are putting themselves and other members at risk. Refusers put resources at unnecessary risk. Resources that should be devoted to those who are actively supporting the mission.

It's a simple truth that not all person's are compatible with military service. That incompatibility may be discovered at some point after enlistment or commissioning and those person's should be culled to make room for those who are compatible.

Response by PO2 Harold Ashton made Aug 26 at 2021 9:27 PM

2021-08-26T21:27:35-04:00

Anti-vaxx lawyer for dozens of Capitol rioters is now on a ‘ventilator’ with COVID-19: report

Attorney John Pierce, who has represented Kenosha, Wisconsin, shooting suspect Kyle Rittenhouse as well as more than a dozen Capitol rioters, reportedly is on a ventilator after contracting COVID-19.

Pierce's illness was first reported Wednesday after it prompted a hearing for accused Capitol rioter Shane Jenkins to be delayed, according to independent journalist Marcy Wheeler and Washington Post reporter Rachel Weiner.

John Pierce
@CaliKidJMP
·
Jul 4
This is absolutely a final-phase designed-purge of Patriotic Americans from the Army. Prepare for anything and everything at this point. This goes deeper than anything I thought even a few months ago. No one should be taking any of these vaccines, least of all the military.

https://www-rawstory-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/http://www.rawstory.com/amp/lawyer-john-pierce [login to see]

Anti-vaxx lawyer for dozens of Capitol rioters is now on a ‘ventilator’ with COVID-19: report

Response by CPL Brian Clouser made Aug 29 at 2021 10:25 AM

2021-08-29T10:25:21-04:00

Why the military or anyone else for that matter would push a rush. under-tested vaccine with who knows how many side effects belong me. Now there is some question rather the vaccine is a vaccine or a gene therapy If it's gene therapy then can't legally force troops to "take the jab" without violating the Nuremberg Code That is my 2 cent and a lot of you won't agree with me and that is fine we all entitled to our opinions

Response by SN Michael Smith made Sep 17 at 2021 12:18 PM

2021-09-17T12:18:49-04:00

My question is this; If someone was exposed and developed a "natural" antibody why should they be forced to receive the shot?
There have been reports that people who have a "natural" antibody have been having some sever reactions to some of the shots.

Response by PO2 Edward Gilbert made Sep 23 at 2021 8:59 PM

2021-09-23T20:59:31-04:00

The administration today announced they oppose giving honorable discharges, keeping dishonorable option on the table. The vaccine is still experimental and EUO so this mandatory vaccinations is BS.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2021 9:39 PM

2021-09-23T21:39:25-04:00

I hope medical or honorable. I would hate to find out a combat veteran who risked his life for our country is in danger of losing benefits or unable to get a good job because the Army kicked him out over a vaccination

Response by PFC Robert Avants made Sep 24 at 2021 4:06 PM

2021-09-24T16:06:09-04:00

undesirable or bad conduct

Response by Brad Miller made Sep 24 at 2021 5:02 PM

2021-09-24T17:02:44-04:00

As of Thursday, the WH was saying "dishonorable discharge" for refusing to obey lawful orders.

Response by MSG Jacqueline Case made Sep 27 at 2021 8:59 AM

2021-09-27T08:59:29-04:00

If you have been in the military ranks for more than 30 days you have already received shots that you have no idea how they will “affect you later.” Why risk being discharged for ignorance?

Response by MSG William Wold made Nov 2 at 2021 10:57 AM

2021-11-02T10:57:46-04:00

My son is Army, an E-6 promotable. I asked him if he got the shot, he changes the subject so I suspect he has not yet. Just bought a new pickup at $52K so I suspect he might to keep employment and pay for the pickup. However, His wife works for a large very successful attorney company and is very well paid. 12 years is a lot to throw away, yet my other son got out with 12 as he was fed up. They made him jump onto the new three tiered retirement system. I got the shot in Feb/March mainly because my wife cannot, long alphabetical named conditions she can pronounce because she was an RN for 22 years. Anyway, I did, so I could go out and about to get things.
We moved to Texas where there is no mandate, doing fine.
Anyway my son gets called at all hours of the day/night. Come in ready to go. Drops his cell phone in a box and retrieves it when they get back. Could be 3-5 days, or two-three weeks. He maxed the old APFT, was short on the new test by only 5 points. At 36 he's in great shape. Loves entering marathons and comes in most the time first in his class or at least the first 5 people. My two daughters got the shots because they are WA state employees, get it or your fired. Other daughter will not be getting it. She tested positive in early spring yet her husband and kids did not, yet they were much sicker. So I guess it's a choice we all have to make and there will be repercussions either way. Either health or employment, or possibly both.

Response by CPO Arthur Weinberger made Nov 7 at 2021 8:44 PM

2021-11-07T20:44:54-05:00

Discharge less than honorable. No benefits regardless rank or time in service

Response by CW3 Michael Clifford made Nov 7 at 2021 11:50 PM

2021-11-07T23:50:47-05:00

One should not expect a discharge and a walk. Failure to acquire a vaccine could be construed as failure to follow a lawful order, thus a service member could be a special court martial resulting up to 364 days incarceration and a bad conduct discharge.

Response by PO3 Edgar Lister made Nov 12 at 2021 4:17 PM

2021-11-12T16:17:04-05:00

Our Clown of a President can't mandate a rule to be the law of the land and overstep many parts of the US Constitution, it's unheard of and will become the new powers of the Executive Branch. This will allow future Presidents following this overstep of power to continue down a destructive course. Not only is he making unlawful rules he is eroding the Judicial Branch basis to exist, so there will only be two functioning bodies of Government that will rule the Country. Hamilton one of America's Founding Fathers said it best; "individual liberty cannot be protected without an independent judiciary." He states that the restrictions of the constitution mean nothing unless they are enforced by an entity that is separated from legislature.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2021 3:27 PM

2021-11-15T15:27:04-05:00

"A facts-based approach to making an educated decision on this matter is imperative to fulfilling our obligation to the nation. Marines who refuse the vaccination will face significant consequences to include:

- Potential involuntary transfer to the IRR;
- Processing for an Administrative Separation;
- Loss of TRICARE Reserve Select eligibility for the member and their family;
- Potential loss of GI Bill benefits;
- Potential loss of VA Home Loan Eligibility;
- Non-eligibility for involuntary separation pay;
- Recoupment of any unearned special or incentive pays and advanced education benefits;
- Inability to be promoted;
- A reenlistment code of RE4 (not recommended for future service) upon separation.
- Recommendation of your discharge could be “General Under Honorable”. "

Response by CW3 Charles Morris made Nov 15 at 2021 4:24 PM

2021-11-15T16:24:14-05:00

Call me old school (1973-1198), with very few exceptions for military personnel able to avoid receiving inoculations.

As I recall, on day one or two of my basic training I was sent through a line with medics to the left and right armed with "jet injectors" where I received approximately nine shots. After that, there were more immunizations, all of which were dutifully recorded in my WHO International Certificate of Vaccination (Yellow Card), that were intended to keep me healthy.

While I do not see the addition of Coronavirus vaccinations as any different, apparently today some soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines seemingly can opt-out for political reasons.

While the "General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions" may be appropriate, I'd suggest they be given a "Separation for Convenience of the Government" and let them walk away.

Response by SSgt Thonas Daly made Jan 25 at 2022 7:15 AM

2022-01-25T07:15:51-05:00

Service members separated from the military for refusing the COVID-19 vaccine receive a general discharge under honorable conditions WHICH MEANS they NOT eligible for GI Bill EDUCATION benefits.

Response by PFC Rickey Cook made Mar 9 at 2024 3:11 PM

2024-03-09T15:11:57-05:00

Shouldn't have to get discharged but if so Honorable under medical