Online training vs Group Learning or face to face interaction...What is your take on it and why?

MSG Bobby Ewing — Sat, 23 Nov 2013 01:15:19 -0500

With the military and the world being taken over by technology, it seems like a lot of training that is better given in a group discussion, a classroom, or a face-to-face environment, have now been pushed over to online training. I believe that the majority of individuals (no matter what service) are just completing the training as a check the block rather than getting the education from it. Have any leaders in this forum gone back and randomly asked their soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines questions about what they should have learned from the online training? I have and was surprised to get the answers, "I don't know" or "I haven't received that training" even though I have a certificate with a name on it saying the training was accomplished. I'm not talking about hard questions. I'm talking about questions from the learning objectives or simple definition or acronym questions from the headers or titles, etc. What I like to do is inform the Soldier to redo the training, bring the new certificate back, and be prepared for more questions. If anyone has a better way of ensuring learning is taking place and not just "next slide, next slide, next slide, DONE", I would really appreciate another tool for my tool kit.

Response by SGT William B. made Nov 23 at 2013 1:29 AM

SGT William B. — Sat, 23 Nov 2013 01:29:01 -0500

SFC, I agree wholeheartedly.  Training is not meant to be a "press next, check the block" exercise.  Unfortunately, I think we as an organization have been far too reliant on online training delivery platforms (ALMS) as a way to cut costs and time lost to classrooms/travel.  I don't have any great suggestions for a fix, but I do like the idea of online training, with a proctored exam from an NCO for certain tests.  To me, that seems much more reasonable and actually enforces some manner of retention/integrity with the training.

Response by SGT William B. made Nov 23 at 2013 1:57 AM

SGT William B. — Sat, 23 Nov 2013 01:57:44 -0500

Oh, I see what you're getting at SFC. Yes, absolutely. Maybe it's always been like this, but most of the junior enlisted soldiers I know have a hard time comporting themselves properly when senior ranks come into play. That proper interaction with leaders with authority over you is a crucial skill that is sorely lacking in some. Finding that fine line between respect and familiarity, as well as finding the wording to address someone in a higher-ranking category can be difficult for my generation and younger ones. Classrooms definitely help with that, so long as it's an open environment where a junior soldier can openly ask questions without fear of reprisal or ridicule.

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Nov 23 at 2013 2:05 AM

Cpl Ray Fernandez — Sat, 23 Nov 2013 02:05:41 -0500

Online training can be effective, or it can be one big joke. I earned a degree in IT online. I liked it better than studying in a traditional setting mainly because the online courses moved faster and were led by Professors that had real world experience in the subjects they were teaching. On the other side of the coin, I've had job related training that was absolutely meaningless, it was automated there was no interaction with an instructor, and for the most part my manager just took all of our logins had someone login for us and click their way to complete the training in order to avoid us losing any productivity. I think the automated training seems more like a chore than an opportunity to learn in a useful way.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Nov 23 at 2013 3:03 AM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Sat, 23 Nov 2013 03:03:34 -0500

Much of the on-line training is a check the block. Here are the powerpoint slides, sign off on the last sheet. The ones I liked were the ones where you get to the end and it says insert your name and print. Get the block checked for the entire plt with 2 dozen back spaces and only the house mouse needs to be there. As a leader, if you are taking the time to ask them questions after their "training", you have time to conduct and lead their training, or better yet, be present to supervise the trainer. Be at the sessions, interact during the training, ask questions at the training, bring the PLT together for the training. Ask situational so that you know they understood the intent of the training and not just the text of the training. That being said, mandatory training very rarely takes. The Soldier has to want to learn if they are going to remember anything from it. It goes back to the basics, as human beings and Americans, curiosity and discovery are at the root of our being, but we need to know why what we are about to learn is important to us. The leader also has to believe in the importance of the training and convey that to his troops. The second a PSG or PL utters the words "mandatory training" or "quarterly requirements", he has indicated to the Soldiers his belief in the value of the subject matter.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2013 3:08 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Nov 2013 03:08:31 -0500

SFC Ewing,I personally am not a fan of the online training at all. I believe for college it is a personal choice between online and in the class room. But as for military training I think it is a useless system. I see  few big issues with the online training. One of the things I see id that it is a way for some high ranking officer/NCO to come up with some added new training that is not really necessary and then add it to our already overwhelmed schedule. I know people thing by making it online means you have all the time in the world to get it done at your own pace; but we both know that is not true. It gets put out by the CSM on Friday at 1130 that some new online training requirement is out and no one goes home until it is complete. So now everyone spends a few hours franticly pressing next hoping that the 150 guys in your company can all get this training done on the 2 or 3 open computers that are available. Another issue I have with all this online training is you have a handful of required training sent down from big Army we must all do. Then corps adds to it, then your BDE adds to it, then your BN adds to it then the company. By the time it is all said and down you have 50 different online certs to complete. You said that the Soldiers hit the next button to " check the block" I believe the entire system is to check the block. If I make you take risk assessment training online and print a cert then you get in an accident in a military vehicle I can blame you. You were trained I have proof. Or you could get my Soldiers out from behind the keyboards and let me as an NCO do my job and give them real training and guidance.  I know this all sounded like a rant but I am just very against the military online check the block training. It starts with all these annual certs then goes to SSD, ALC common Core skillport classes.  All I am saying is let me train my Soldiers at home station, in the filed , at the school house. Everywhere. That is my job trainer of Soldiers not the job of some crappy online cert.

Response by CMC Robert Young made Nov 23 at 2013 7:13 AM

CMC Robert Young — Sat, 23 Nov 2013 07:13:38 -0500

SFC, the Coast Guard has become overwhelmed with web based training using reduction in resource expenditures as the justification for mass non synchronized delivery. The unfortunate side effects are as you have so pointedly brought to light. Many service members already overburdened by increasing workloads and reduced unit staffs simply click the button until completing the slideshow and then press on to their other duties. The Power Point slideshows in many cases are poorly constructed, and there seems to be proliferation of suddenly required courses now simply because program managers see developing them as easy EER or award bullets... ("-insert service member's name - created service wide mandatory non synchronous - insert the name of the topic here - training program which delivered XXXX man hours of career enhancement training while minimizing financial impact.") At first glance that sounds awesome when you hear it read in an award. What's not immediately apparent is that the originator has not created anything useful that improves workplace performance; they simply created another meaningless training requirement because it was easy to demonstrate the cause and effect between their effort and the end result. Couple this with the lack of opportunity to seek direct answers from the program manager/instructor/facilitator, and much of the training is not just useless, it is a waste of what precious time we have to do what we really need to do. As both a student and an instructor, I know and have seen solid web based training, but I think we have become too dependent on technology to deliver important training by glorifying the benefits beyond reason, and failing to appreciate the drawbacks.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2013 7:27 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Nov 2013 07:27:26 -0500

Unfortunately, digital training at the garrison unit is popular with Department of the Army and other top echelons because it is sanctioned, factual, easily and instantly evaluated,  instantly quantifiable, and excellent for proving a particular Soldier received training on said subject. on said date   Sounds like I am a fan but I am not.  Digital training is the worst medium to present mandatory training because it is not engaging, encourages integrity violations, and is difficult to prove actual proficiency is  achieved.  It is ideal for leaders concerned with CYA and leading by statistics.  Sadly, due to the amount and length of many of these online courses I have seen the NCO support channel create cheat sheets or advise junior leaders to circumvent or minimize the training value.  This is because these leaders understand the limited value and valuable time these online training certificates monopolize.  Tragically, Army Values are trampled in the process.  The digital medium is best reserved to the voluntary self development realm.  It should be left alone if the Army wants to inculcate Soldiers with priority messages, themes, and training.  

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2013 8:58 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Nov 2013 08:58:13 -0500

I think there is a time and a place for online training, but it's very important to know what's best for you as an indiviidual.

I got my MBA online through Grand Canyon University. It was HARD WORK. It was not just willy nilly read a few chapters, answer a few questions, and move on. I had to write long essays every single week. Classes were 8 weeks long and during that 8 week period you worked on a comprehensive assignment that would be turned in as your final.

I volunteer at my church as a Coordinator for Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University. I LOVE the small group setting, and personally feel that it is the most efficient way to learn the information. However, there is an at-home study kit version of the class available. If you live in an area where no class is offered, or the classes offered arent at times that are good with your schedule, you can do the home based class. I personally think the small group discussion portion of the class gives people the opportunity to learn from each other.

Point being, some trainings absolutely can be done 100% at home or online. I think though, in the examples you are referring to, it sounds like some of the military trainings that are offered likely have multiple choice answers, and easy ways to scam the system to figure out the correct answers without learning anything, just so you can get a certificate of completion. Like I said before, there is a time and a place for online training. If there is a concern over a certificate of completion versus actual proof of knowledge and understanding.... then maybe that course should not be offered online.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Nov 24 at 2013 10:05 AM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 10:05:48 -0500

The most important learning that I have done has been due to interactions with NCOs and more senior officers, via face-to-face engagement and hands-on experience. The online courses I have done have felt like they were check-the-box, and I forgot the content quickly.

Response by SFC James Baber made Nov 24 at 2013 11:23 AM

SFC James Baber — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 11:23:36 -0500

I believe both have their benefits, but for me I enjoy online training as I can work it within my schedule and not have to struggle with meet time constraints. That is the reason I enjoy online classes for college as well. The drawback is not having a face-to-face instructor if you have any major questions about subject.

Response by Lt Col Luis A. Rojas made Nov 24 at 2013 2:55 PM

Lt Col Luis A. Rojas — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 14:55:58 -0500

As an instructor for a good part of my Air Force Career, I'm definitely an advocate for classroom training (face-to-face), especially when it is initial qualification training. Unfortunately, given the amount of training requirements we are faced with annually and the limited funds and personnel in our tight budget environment; I guess computer based training is the best alternative. SFC Ewing, I really like your approach in ensuring your troops are properly accomplishing the computer based training...I can't think of a better way.

Response by SFC Stephen Hester made Apr 13 at 2015 8:44 PM

SFC Stephen Hester — Mon, 13 Apr 2015 20:44:38 -0400

I am an instructor/trainer and have experience with both classroom and computer-based training. I used to be a fan of CBT but the current trend to use it as a way to save money and get a training box checked. I've seen people open up a CBT course and just let it run between "learning checks" which they can take as often as they need to memorize that answers and eventually pass. I even had one client who wanted a four-hour classroom block if instruction or a one-hour equivalent online block. To cram four hours into one is ludicrous and doesn't result in any real training.

My personal experience with online training is that I recalled very little of it. Classroom retention may be low but CBT retention is non-existent.

Response by SSG Darrin Roark made Apr 4 at 2016 3:58 PM

SSG Darrin Roark — Mon, 04 Apr 2016 15:58:33 -0400

LOL... When I was at Fort Hood and Fort Knox, I really smartened up about doing all of those mandatory online training classes like SHARP, TARP, AAC, AT Level I, GAT and such. I had every one of those training certificates converted into re-writable Word Documents and I had all of the classes made into a DVD and/or PowerPoint format that could easily be viewed and taught by any NCO in the company and eventually by NCOs across the whole battalion and the brigade as well. By taking the time and effort to do this one good time, I was able to get completely around and away from the requirement of trying to do all of those classes online on clunky government computers. This method was particularly effective downrange because I no longer needed the internet to do the training, teach the classes and produce the certificates. Before I retired, I personally saw to it that those DVDs, PowerPoints and re-writable Training Certificates were distributed to every single Platoon Sgt and Ops Sgt in the entire formation. It was then simply just a matter of showing the videos, PowerPoints and teaching these classes every so often during Inprocessing, Sergeant's Time Training or Safety Stand-down Days and such. After this training was completed, the company clerks would then fill in the names of those who attended the training and the dates on all of those certificates and put them into DTMS. We were 100% up all the time on this kind of stuff whenever we were inspected. BTW... I never took another mandatory online training class ever again the whole time I was at Fort Knox and most of the time I was at Fort Hood. I just simply changed the dates on all of my certificates, printed them puppies off and gave them to my Ops Sgt each year or as needed. This freed up my time for me to accomplish more important missions instead of sitting front of a clunky government computer beating the same ole dead horse all of the time.