Our Oath "Defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" Are rioters domestic enemies?

SSG Ronald Williams — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:23:07 -0400

Are rioters domestic enemies? Is it ok to be a domestic enemy if your cause is just, or is the government always right? What are your thoughts?

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Apr 29 at 2015 6:27 PM

CPT Zachary Brooks — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:27:25 -0400

This fit into my thoughts on this command post:

https://www.rallypoint.com/command-post/how-do-we-define-an-enemy

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2015 6:36 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:36:54 -0400

What would make them enemies of the State? No, they aren't seeking to start an insurrection, are not aiding/abedding or providing refuge to the enemy. I feel it is dangerous to start wondering if violent demonstrators or common criminals are "enemies." as it applies to standing armies. By dangerous I mean very dangerous. Cool rebuttal question: Are illegal aliens that violate the Nation's sovereignty enemies of the State?

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Apr 29 at 2015 6:45 PM

SPC Charles Brown — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:45:27 -0400

Just my opinion but yes they are domestic enemies.

Response by SPC Carl K. made Apr 29 at 2015 6:48 PM

SPC Carl K. — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:48:06 -0400

This is a complicated scenario, for sure. Unless the rioters are pulling out assault rifles and storming government offices, actively engaging the cops and military, or setting IEDs, etc., I would not classify them as enemies of the state. The riots that were happening in Baltimore are VERY reminiscent of the Watts riots. Besides looting an destruction of property, and some miscellaneous injuries on both sides, I would not consider it full-fledged combat.

However, to caveat, part of the source of this riot, as well as the other racially motivated riots are the actions of the police who seem to treat everyone as enemies of the state, or at least enemies of the police, even if they are peaceful or not. The attitudes of the cops nationwide will do nothing but cause more of this, if the are not reigned in.

Response by SSG Ronald Williams made Apr 29 at 2015 6:51 PM

SSG Ronald Williams — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:51:29 -0400

It sounds like many of you would have considered the Founding Fathers, Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Revere, all "domestic enemies" of their time. Is it ok to be a domestic enemy if your cause is just, or is the government always right?

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2015 6:55 PM

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:55:53 -0400

There is a difference between protesting and looting/rioting. I am pretty sure our founding fathers didn't loot or riot.

Response by PO2 Steven Erickson made Apr 29 at 2015 6:58 PM

PO2 Steven Erickson — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 18:58:04 -0400

[Rioters are just protestors or criminals, not enemies.]

No further words are necessary, IMHO.

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Apr 29 at 2015 11:04 PM

SFC Collin McMillion — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 23:04:12 -0400

I feel everyone and anyone has a right to their say about what they consider wrong regardless of weather they do it as a single person or as a group. Violence begets violence! What defines an enemy.........to me it is someone who tries to take, destroy, damage what is mine. To hurt or kill my family or loved ones. This is what rioters do, they have no respect for anything or anyone, not expressing feelings or opinions or trying to peacefully change anything. If you destroy a business, how many men, women, and children have to suffer and do without? So tell me, "WHAT IS AN ENEMY"?

Response by MSgt Rob Weston made Apr 29 at 2015 11:04 PM

MSgt Rob Weston — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 23:04:28 -0400

This is not a simple black and white answer... To protest is to stand against a perceived injustice or threat to ones invaluable right usually done in a respect full and peaceful manner to articulate reason and in some cases resolve. Furthermore a civil riot is the use of violence against the perceived injustice or the effigie of that injustice (I.e the Boston Tea Party) to further a cause. however what is occuring in Baltimore and what happened in Ferguson is not a riot, but pure unadulterated uncivilized anarchy used to propel ones own selfish desires through the use and that result in the death and the destruction of innocent people and property that not only have nothing to do with the perceived injustice, but is used as a smoke screen to obtain desired items...

Response by LTC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2015 11:19 AM

LTC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 11:19:42 -0400

The oath is to defend the Constitution. Defending the government is not quite the same. In this sense, while we are oath bound to follow the orders from our chain of command, our true obligation is to the American people. That being said, the looters and rioters are a bunch of opportunist thugs and criminals. For those who have meant to protest in the streets their grievances against the government, that is their constitutional right.

Response by SPC Jonathan Sellers made Apr 30 at 2015 11:55 AM

SPC Jonathan Sellers — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 11:55:13 -0400

Were the Boston Tea Partiers enemies of freedom?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 30 at 2015 11:56 AM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 11:56:00 -0400

They are also domestic terrorists as they use violence to intimidate people and further a social cause.

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made Apr 30 at 2015 11:59 AM

SGT Jeremiah B. — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 11:59:58 -0400

If committing a criminal act is enough to label someone an enemy, I think a great deal of us are in a lot of trouble. Besides, do we REALLY want to open the Pandora's box of using the military against Americans? That is the only logical result of that label.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2015 1:16 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 13:16:29 -0400

Really what is a terriorist it is someone or group that there many objective is to overthrow our government. So if a rioter is trying to overthrow our police departments then yes because they are part of our governments support. If they are just running around destroying stuff and stealing then they are just thugs that need to be punished to the fullest extent of the crimes committed.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Apr 30 at 2015 1:58 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 13:58:29 -0400

Unlawful assembly, race (proceeding from the assembly to engage in unlawful activity) and riot are crimes. The perpetrators are criminals, not enemies.

That being said, riot always carries the risk of rising to insurrection if the government is not able to bring it under control.

Insurrections always carry a risk to the Constitution and those who perpetrate them are enemies.

Thus, it is a matter of degree...

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Apr 30 at 2015 2:42 PM

Maj Chris Nelson — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 14:42:08 -0400

This topic has many facets and is not as simple as it would seem. The simple acts of riot and looting are criminal in nature. The methods being used are creating a sense of intimidation in sections of the population. In this way it could be considered domestic terrorism. On the flip side, these people are in-appropriately acting out in protest of perceived injustices of the legal system, local government, etc. If they were not rioting/looting, their actions would be legal and endorsed by the constitution. People are bring up the Boston Tea Party.... and right they should, as there are very fine lines of difference between them. My guess is that back in the 1700s, the term "Terrorist" or "Domestic Terrorist" did not exist or have a definition. Language evolves to create a framework of the times. I suspect that those participants in the American Revolution would be considered Terrorists, Traitors, Insurgents, etc by TODAY's standards. In their day, they were Revolutionaries (our term from our side) and Traitors to the Crown by the other.... Perspective has EVERYTHING to do with terminology being used. This is a topic that MUST be approached with caution. I do feel that anyone destroying public/private property should be charged to the fullest for their crimes....just as the Revolutionaries were charged, convicted and sentenced for crimes if caught by the British....

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2015 3:10 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 15:10:05 -0400

The government isn't always right, but neither is running your own neighborhoods into the ground. Yes, I believe they are domestic terrorists (definition of terrorist: those who seek to instill terror) The moment you set fire to things, attack authorities, and whatnot is the moment your so called "cause" goes straight into the garbage.

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2015 3:35 PM

CDR Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 15:35:32 -0400

The question is way too broad to simply answer one way or another. Rioters? Which rioters? If we're talking about the rioters and looters in Baltimore, then I'd say that they're criminals (for the most part), although sometimes rioters can create situations in which they are trying to deprive others of their constitutional rights, which creates a situation that pits the military's duty to defend the constitution against most modern interpretations of the Posse Comitatus Act (which is another issue in itself).

We all swore to defend the Constitution of the United States, not the GOVERNMENT of the United States. If your cause is defending the Constitution, then it's not only just, it's your duty...even if the enemy you face in doing so, is part of the government.

As for those who riot just to cause mayhem, and perhaps gain some new trinkets from the mom & pop store they looted, they make me sick. I wish there were a way to identify them, and permanently eject them from the country to somewhere else. Let them get a taste of life in a country without the freedoms they abuse.

Response by SSG Ronald Williams made Apr 30 at 2015 6:40 PM

SSG Ronald Williams — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 18:40:24 -0400

One thing is for sure, looking at the survey we are all over the place on this one.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2015 6:47 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 18:47:10 -0400

I feel rioters are just using the amendments that we protect to voice their concerns. Could they be enemies, if you fire upon me, then you are my enemy.

However flipping s car, or torching a building in protest just seems like an adult version of a two year olds' temper tantrum. So just like the kids, give them a time out (jail/prison for adults) and move on.

Response by SPC Larry Boutwell made Apr 30 at 2015 7:38 PM

SPC Larry Boutwell — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 19:38:37 -0400

i dont see what destroying some one elses hard earned property such as buisnesses and beating random people half to death is really going to do that positive... only thing i see is charges....

Response by SPC Eddie Espejo made May 1 at 2015 3:42 AM

SPC Eddie Espejo — Fri, 01 May 2015 03:42:34 -0400

how can a rioter be a domestic enemy?? most likely someone trying in thier own way to stand up and say they had enough of tyranny and violation of rights. a peaceful approach/ protest is always the better option of course. some dont have discipline...that doesnt mean they are enemies. for those that destroy businesses well I dont agree with that and those particular ones perhaps are the ones who learn harder than others just like some of those they are protesting against....learn hard way too. there needs to be a balance and not an easy situation but just dont forget that they too are americans. just my two cents is all. its a good topic

Response by CPL Jay Freeman made May 1 at 2015 4:05 AM

CPL Jay Freeman — Fri, 01 May 2015 04:05:17 -0400

To protest there are many ways to do so but looting is not if the protesters where to turn on the looters and stop them then maybe the protest would just be that and not a bunch of lawless assess running around taking from the purpose of the protest.

Response by SSgt Thomas L. made May 1 at 2015 4:46 AM

SSgt Thomas L. — Fri, 01 May 2015 04:46:00 -0400

Rioters who go and destroy property because they are happy/sad that their local sports team won/lost are juvenile criminals.

People who are made to feel unsafe in their own community and who are consistently harassed, assaulted and murdered by the people who are supposed to protect them... that's another story.

Were the people in Warsaw under German occupation in 1944 justified in shooting police officers? Would it be fair to call them "unlawful combatants" and summarily execute them?

America has a long, sad history of race riots. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_racial_violence_in_the_United_States) This is not a new thing. In fact, it's only been in the past 80 years or so that most of the rioters have been minorities. Before the mid 20th century, it has usually been white people. From 'nativists' attacking Irish or Italian immigrants to white union members retaliating against black strike breakers... the streets of American cities are no stranger to violent racial conflict.

Instead of pointing fingers, or debating what to do about the current riots, why don't we try to address the causes? Why do they happen, and how can we prevent them?

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 1 at 2015 12:45 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Fri, 01 May 2015 12:45:33 -0400

ter·ror·ism (tĕr′ə-rĭz′əm) n. The use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political goals.

Fit?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2015 12:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 May 2015 12:18:12 -0400

Rioters are law breakers plain and simple. There is a huge difference between a protest and a roit. Once they start to vandalize, loot, and what ever else they do that is illegal and morally wrong. Then yes if the police can not handle the situation they need to call in the guard. As riot control, which is not fighting an enemy it is controling a mob of criminals. If push comes to shove then yes arm them. Sometimes violence is all people listen to. Violence is absolutely a last resort though. But criminals some times need to be treated like criminals. Yes Mr. Grey was killed and yes it was wrong but, looting and Rioting are not going to solve anything but more death.

Response by TSgt Christopher D. made May 2 at 2015 12:29 PM

TSgt Christopher D. — Sat, 02 May 2015 12:29:14 -0400

250 years ago a bunch of people tired of the oppression they perceived from their rulers decided to do things. Some wrote letters, some held rallies, and still others decided to take a shipment of tea and dump it in the harbor.

They would have undoubtedly been considered rioters. They were considered enemies of the state.

I do not condone what's happening in Baltimore. The police and Baltimore guard units should protect individuals and business owners, and arrest people who commit crimes, but the Armed Forces of the US should not get involved. Though Posse Comitatus has been watered down, the purpose of the US Armed Forces is not to police American streets. Going down that road puts the republic on an even more slippery slope.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made May 6 at 2015 2:20 AM

LCpl Mark Lefler — Wed, 06 May 2015 02:20:00 -0400

En Posse laws.

Response by SGT Kevin Gardner made May 6 at 2015 2:22 AM

SGT Kevin Gardner — Wed, 06 May 2015 02:22:25 -0400

Rioters are criminals, nothing more, let the law deal with them and the state government can call out the NG if it gets so bad. But no they are not domestic enemies. As for your question about if the government is always right. I honestly can't say yea sure with a straight face infact thinking about it makes my head hurt.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2015 5:07 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 May 2015 05:07:45 -0400

I don't agree with rioters. I think that they are babies acting out honestly. They are not getting their way and using Race, Religion, Creed, Color, whatever they can as an excuse. Then people like Al Sharpton feed it with their remarks, either knowingly or unknowingly. It makes me angry because I see Americans acting like the same uncivilized groups that I fought against for years in Iraq. I don't think that their problems are worthy of taking to the streets like that. When they do, they then use it as an excuse to break stuff, steal stuff, destroy stuff, just like a child acting out. Domestic enemies? A case could be made for it, but honestly it is not that simple at all. It is just a bunch of babies being babies.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 24 at 2015 1:59 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jul 2015 13:59:08 -0400

I have actually talked to some people that have rioted before, and they actually go to protests to escalate the situation into a riot sometimes to simply enjoy the rush of fighting police and sometimes so that they can just steal things from businesses. There are organized groups out there whose goals are to start riots for those particular purposes. Based off of talking to these people, yes, I see rioters as borderline terrorists without a cause other than to create chaos for their own entertainment.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 25 at 2015 8:12 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 25 Jul 2015 20:12:34 -0400

The key is what is their long term objective, and why they are rioting.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Jul 27 at 2015 8:18 AM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Mon, 27 Jul 2015 08:18:55 -0400

Rioters are criminals plain and simple.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Sep 14 at 2015 11:06 AM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 11:06:14 -0400

Depends on the scenario.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Sep 14 at 2015 11:11 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 11:11:41 -0400

A rioter exercises their rights until they break the law.

Response by CW3 Eric W. S. made Sep 14 at 2015 12:27 PM

CW3 Eric W. S. — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 12:27:39 -0400

However, if violence, looting, or physical damage is involved, they become criminals. The second any of that violence or physical damage is directed against Law Enforcement officials, I believe they become enemies of the state and should be dealt with appropriately. And punishments for such should not be lenient. Let's take a lesson from other nations that deal with rioters - South Korea, Germany, Turkey, China, Laos, Cambodia, Philippines, Russia, Ukraine, France, Belgium, etc... There are a lot of nations that are tougher on rioters than the US is and these countries have much less issues in the long run.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Sep 14 at 2015 12:31 PM

MCPO Roger Collins — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 12:31:31 -0400

IMO, they are not domestic enemies as described in most oaths.

Response by CPL Brian Clouser made Sep 25 at 2015 11:02 AM

CPL Brian Clouser — Fri, 25 Sep 2015 11:02:21 -0400

I found this question interesting since in 2008 the DHS declared that soldiers coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan are potential terrorists. The report also includes those that are for smaller government, anti abortion, ect, ect

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2020 9:48 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jul 2020 21:48:38 -0400

Whether you are aware or not, MS13 and ANTIFA have recognized as legitimate military threats and can legally be detained by Uniformed military personnel if they present a threat... Not arrest mind you.