PCS, Impact, Deployment, and other awards: Should they be determined by rank?

2013-11-06T20:57:25-05:00

Should a commander be able to say that they will only give a Bronze Star Medal to SSGs and above? Is this how awards are determined IAW AR 600-8-22? What if a SGT or below has met the criteria to earn a more prestigious award? Why does BDE or higher say that they are only alloted a certain number of awards for deployment or PCS or for an impact award? If your repsonse is "Tradition" or "That's the way it always has been," does that make it right?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2013 9:41 PM

2013-11-06T21:41:53-05:00

Most of the time its not really up to a Company Commander to give out Bronze Stars. This kind of award is usually determined and approved on a Battalion level if not higher than that. During my deployment I had lower enlisted that deserved Bronze Star and I had one soldier that could probably get a Medal of Honor but all he got was Arcom with Valor for saving lives of two or more of his fellow soldiers so is it fair? no but unfortunately its a game that we all play at some point. should they be determined by rank? I don't think so.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2013 7:13 PM

2013-11-07T19:13:01-05:00

I believe a "cruising toward twenty since the last ten" NCO should get an AAM for a PCS award at best and the specialist that made a functioning and inspection-proof key control system for a BN motor pool should get an ARCOM or better.

However, awards are a form of currency/reward. We hand them out based on rank so that peer groups with similar experiences have similar chest appurtenances. My least favorite was a solid clique of company grade officers and warrant officers with silver stars for their "responsibility" during a tour that saw those company grade officers who led platoons into firefights and back out receive an ARCOM each.

Response by SFC Josh Watson made Nov 7 at 2013 7:33 PM

2013-11-07T19:33:14-05:00

No, absolutely not (unless the achievement or service was not commensurate the award). It is clear in the regulation (AR 600-8-22). I have seen this a lot though. On a deployment to Iraq, the DIV CG said he would not approve a BSM for anyone in the rank of 2LT, 1LT or SFC and below because he didn't think that those Soldiers were in positions that warranted that award. I'm not saying I'm unhappy for getting an ARCOM, I just don't know how a "Leader" could make a statement like that. On my last deployment all BSMs that went up had to be "boarded" by a panel of 1SGs and BDE staff officers before going to the BDE CDR for signature, if they didn't think that the Soldier or write up were worthy it was an automatic downgrade, but you could resubmit. Now keep in mind all of this was going on six months prior to redeployment. I got it, with so many submissions, it was the "timely" thing to do. I'm rambling now, but my answer is IAW AR 600-8-22, NO!

Response by SGT Thomas Sullivan made Nov 8 at 2013 12:11 PM

2013-11-08T12:11:50-05:00

NO!, but thats the way it is...sadly

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2013 6:39 PM

2013-11-08T18:39:08-05:00

No that shouldn't be the case.

I fought while in Iraq as the Brigade Awards Section (yes section it was me alone) when I saw SrA being submitted for an AAM because of their rank when their awards stated they had rockets shot at them while driving the lead vehicle. That's not the right answer and I have no issues standing up for what is right. By regulation the Airman was not eligible for an AAM and I had no issues sharing the regulation with my seniors and many of the SrA awards where upgraded to ARCOM and the SSG that didn't do anything were downgraded from MSMs to ARCOMs.

I was submitted for a DMSM and I was a SPC at the time and my whole chain of command supported the award. When it arrived at the Corps level the CSMs comments stated "Concur, recommend downgrade" then when the MG reviewed it he only read the Concur part and his comments stated "CSM Concurs" so when it made it up to the LTG all he saw was the Concur parts and signed off on my award. A Marine E9 was pissed because I stood between him and a LTC during the award ceremony because I received the same level of award as him. He was pissed and remarked that "there is no way he did the same level of work as a F_____ SPC". When I got back from Iraq an NCO asked me what I received as my deployment award he got mad and stormed off because that award is reserved for SFC and above. (Says no regulation)

It is an NCOs job to fight for an award recommendation when someone higher up recommends downgrade because of rank. If we all did that we could end this type of nonsense.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2013 8:46 PM

2013-11-09T20:46:13-05:00

I dont work for awards, the problem with us now days is that we perform expecting some kind of reward or somebody to come and compliment. It is what it is

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2013 9:10 PM

2013-11-09T21:10:19-05:00

Well, to add fuel to the fire, I don't think anyone in any garrison, deployment, position, OR retirement should get an award for doing their job.  The deployment award is called the ICM or ACM.  PCS awards should not be expected by any Soldier nor given out to everyone because they're leaving.  Retirement awards should not be mandatory.<div><br></div><div>Impact awards are the best.  If a commander sees something they like, exceptional work, outstanding Soldier, the commander should pull that person over, say "Great job, keep it up, here's a ____ (based on outcome and affect!) medal for your work."</div><div><br></div><div>On the flip side, We (the capital/royal we, the Army) can't write awards to reflect what happened in detail so their is no question the Soldier deserves the recommended award.</div><div><br></div><div>As a final note, MG Petreus approved bronze stars for my E4 and E5 from OIF1 based on the write up and recommendations from the Team Chief and Brigade Commander… no quotas ever mentioned.</div>

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2013 9:33 PM

2013-11-09T21:33:12-05:00

Negative; awards should be given based on merit and performance. Command politics will always be there; we can only hope to have Commanders that have enough backbone to fight for their subordinates when the higher HQ tries to deny or downgrade an award.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2013 10:42 PM

2013-11-09T22:42:18-05:00

<p>If you look at the criterion for a given award, it is outlined specifically what is required for that award. By the nature of the jobs they hold, senior enlisted and officers have more opportunity to have the requisite level of achievement based on their positions. Thus, no matter how fair a given command is, there will always be a perception of favoritism.<br><br>That said, if a command actually has a rank-based standard for the awards, they are absolutely wrong. On my first tour when I was a captain, I put a PFC who worked for me in for a BSM, and I specifically argued with the powers-that-were when they wanted to put me in for the same. He got his BSM. I got my ARCOM. It was just. He was going above and beyond. I was doing my job.<br><br>End of tour awards are silly to begin with. Your campaign medal is your end of tour award. This isn't the Special Olympics (no offense to them at all, I've volunteered there and I'm proud of them). This is the Army. Awards should be given based on the level of excellence accomplished, not based on the opportunity to actually do your job overseas. <br><br>All that said, it is still true that a SFC excelling will more likely have a positive impact on the entire unit than a PFC excelling will. It should not be surprising when more SFCs get BSMs than PFCs. So long as the command isn't biased against the PFCs, or propping up the SFCs, then I think it is acceptable that there is a disparity. </p>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2013 12:06 AM

2013-11-10T00:06:57-05:00

no it does not make it right, but only the officers can make the change in the system

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2013 12:22 AM

2013-11-10T00:22:17-05:00

I specifically wrote about this in my letter of resignation from active duty. Officially the Navy states in the SECNAV 1650.1 that rank can never be used as a determinant for an award, but in practice it is all the time. This demoralizes junior officers and all enlisted, as even a terrible O4 departing a ship as department head receives a COM, while an E6 who essentially ran the department receives his umpteenth NAM. This practice is one of the main reasons why good and competitive personnel leave the service. Additionally, awards are also given out way too frequently. The awards manual says that it should only be given when going above and beyond one's job, but we see them given as "deployment" or "end of tour awards". This practice should stop and only spot awards should be given for service that is truly above and beyond what is expected.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2013 12:23 AM

2013-11-10T00:23:08-05:00

AFI 36-2803 (the Air Force Awards & Decs reg) prohibits commanders from "hard-coding" specific decorations to specific ranks. That said, trying to award higher decorations almost universally requires additional justification.
In my experience though, everyone I've seen put in for a higher decoration had easily earned it.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2013 6:04 AM

2013-11-10T06:04:58-05:00

It seems these days people only want to follow regulations when it is convenient for them and works in their favor. Oh, my side burns "look" like I'm skirting the lines, 670-1; you better go cut those immediately or you're the worst Soldier that ever lived! I'm a Counterintelligence Agent on investigative status and you want me to be the stairwell/building coordinator, 381-20 states Agents on investigative status are exempt from these duties, just like CID Agents; we don't care, you will do this duty even if it interferes with your job! The same goes with awards in my opinion. I do my job because I love it and at the end of the day I don't expect anything in return. When deployed as a four man CI Team who goes above and beyond what we were sent there to do. The entire team was submitted for BSM's, all with identical write up's because our circumstances were exactly the same. Three of the four were awarded BSM's; Major, Sergeant First Class, and Staff Sergeant. Take a guess who the General downgraded. Received all four at the same time for the same circumstances but for some reason said, "Nope that Sergeant gets an ARCOM." What was so resoundingly different about those identical awards other than the rank written at the top of the citation?

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2013 9:29 AM

2013-11-10T09:29:30-05:00

Awards should not be determined by rank and those who allow this to happen should be ashamed of themselves. This exact topic greatly bothered me after reading the Army Times from 5 August 2013. According to the Army Times from 5 December 2001 to 31 May 2013 a total of 354,649 awards were given out for OEF. After taking out the CIB's, CAB's, and CMB's 269,565 awards remained. Out of those remaining the majority, 153,440 were ARCOM's for service/achievement while 17,627 were for AAM's.

Now what I am about to say next may sound a bit like complaining and may also seem MOS biased however I would just like to see an outside opinion on this matter.

I was one of the 17,627 who received an AAM for their service in support of OEF. I deployed as a PFC 11B and was an M240B dismount throughout the 12 month deployment. During this deployment I earned my CIB and was granted a waiver for an early promotion to SPC. I competed in a soldier of the quarter competition for the Squadron while a PFC and although I did not win I outperformed all the competition, to include the NCO's, in the hands on portion of the competition which included treating and transporting a casualty, assembling and loading a radio then calling up a nine line, re-assembling and functions testing a number of weapons who's parts where intermingled and lastly calling for fire using a polar mission, all of which happened on the clock. This coupled with religiously leaving the wire to conduct foot patrols leads me to believe I was one of those affected by this "rank based" award system.

Now I am not saying I was some sort of hero and deserve a Bronze Star or anything like that, but I do feel that as someone who was consistently considered to be above their peers throughout the deployment I did not deserve to be in the bottom 6.5% of deployment awards given. Am I wrong in thinking that a ARCOM is not an unrealistic award for my service?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2013 11:07 AM

2013-11-10T11:07:04-05:00

I had my last Deployment award get down graded because only 10% of the company could receive a Bronze Star. CO, 1SG, Truckmaster, XO, PLT Leaders, and PSG were first in line (because of rank).

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 11 at 2013 2:33 PM

2013-11-11T14:33:52-05:00

No But its has been common practice in every unit that I have been in. Bronze Stars were only given to SFC and Above. I have had many awards downgraded because of my rank which is wrong but its the nature of the beast. Its sad to say but I believe that this will never change.

Response by Capt Byron Chen made Nov 11 at 2013 10:22 PM

2013-11-11T22:22:53-05:00

Great comments, everyone. Not much to add here in that vein. I will say that this is a conversation that I've heard over and over, from junior enlisted to young officers alike. It is a great discussion to have, because at the end of the day, it is a person or group of people approving these awards, not an order or regulation -- those are just guidelines to promote fairness. So what can we do, if the "system" is so frequently recognized as broken? Well, judging from the discussions here, there are quite a few smart and fair leaders in this forum who will one day be in a position to influence these types of decisions. Having been in some of these positions in my career, I would suggest that if you have become one of "them", sitting in those positions of influence, remember back to when you were a young pup and how you feel right now. And then take that passion, and temper it with experience, and leverage the influence you have in your position to persuade AND educate those around you in a professional manner. Because rarely will you be in a position to make these decisions in a vacuum. Rather, you work with the command team, discuss amongst each other in a board, and teach other up and coming leaders to draft the appropriate awards, write them properly, and distribute them fairly.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2013 9:17 AM

2013-11-12T09:17:40-05:00

This is something I am currently going through in my command. Honestly, the bulk of the reason why is because of tradition. For decades, many military members receive the lowest award possible suited for their rank if the serviceman/woman basically "succeeded in their job." It would be bad if a SFC came out of a deployment with less than a Bronze Star or PCS award less than a Meritorious Service Medal. Honestly, it technically isn't by rank but it is. Here's why, by the responsibilities and duties these individuals have to perform on a daily basis in their position grants them these awards. Its just like any lower enlisted member regardless of what exactly they did on the tour coming out with a Army Commendation Medal. There are specific criteria that must be met if the individual is seeking a higher award/medal.

Here is a website that details the medals/awards and criteria:

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armymedals/l/blarmedal.htm

http://www.usamilitarymedals.com/army-army-medals-c-2069_1542.html

As for my situation, I was fighting for a higher medal than a Joint Commendation Medal for my PCS award. Luckily, I was approved due to the additional duties, excelling at positions held way beyond my experience and rank as well as instituting a direct link between my command and our assigned Combatant Command. However, it was a struggle. It all boils down to what you have done. I'm sure commands are not just denying people just for the sake of doing so or because they have a quota. It does have everything to do with what the service-member deserves and recognizing them for the accomplishments and tasks they have done. I have seen a lot of people stating they should have received an award higher than what was approved but not really quantifying the "why" they should have gotten more with their accomplishments.

USA Military Medals

We are your Official full-service Department of Defense / U.S. Armed Forces military medals, ribbons, badges, attachments, and devices online store.

U.S. Army Awards and Decorations

Graphical chart showing United States Army medals and decorations, along with descriptions and basic award criteria

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2013 5:00 PM

2013-11-12T17:00:15-05:00

This is a continues problem everywhere. The Regulations does
not limit awards to rank but some commands makes a policy about it that never appears
when questioned. Most of the times awards are not about accomplishments but
what rank you have or who do you work for. Almost everyone can mention an
example of this.

This topic has had numerous good service member leave the
services disgruntle.

Response by SPC David Wyckoff made Nov 18 at 2013 6:28 PM

2013-11-18T18:28:27-05:00

It seems that nothing has changed since I was in hundred years ago. If I remember right after we got back E-7/E-8s and LTs got BSMs, E-5/E-6s got MSM, and E-4 and below got ARCOM's. Quite frankly I was shocked to get anything. I went, I did my job and came back and got an ARCOM. Seemed kind of silly since I didn't do anything that merited a medal.
But I'm proud of it. But it's in the box at the back of my closet with all my other stuff. It didn't really mean much outside of my Army life.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2013 6:34 PM

2013-11-18T18:34:02-05:00

Awards "should" be based off of responsibility and not merit or rank. It is sad to consider that the norm but it is the habits of most to follow the norm. It is both our and incoming generations of leaders to break the cycle and make it right.

But also know that in order to put in for those high awards we must work on our verbage. I think that is why a lot of leaders just put in for ARCOM/AAM's becuase honestly a lot of leaders out there do not properly document their subordinates workings.

Response by SFC Charles S. made Nov 18 at 2013 6:45 PM

2013-11-18T18:45:03-05:00

No, they shouldn't however, it seems that every duty station that I was stationed had some type of policy that included something of this nature. The entire awards system becomes affected if the awards are not issued for the intended act they were designed to recognize. Following AR 600-8.22 is not a guarantee that the will be awarded but at least it gives a standard to follow for submission. I think the numbers game is something that comes around during times of high volume of submission of awards so that they don't feel obligated to just approve awards for the sake of the award and thus reducing the validity of the award. Which also is wrong. Each award should stand on it's own Merit.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Nov 18 at 2013 7:57 PM

2013-11-18T19:57:05-05:00

Nope

Response by SPC Dave St.Andrew made Nov 21 at 2013 7:48 PM

2013-11-21T19:48:20-05:00

In our Unit, PSGs and PLs and above get BSMs, meanwhile, in order to get a BSM for an impact award, it would seem like you would have to go to the moon and back.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2013 9:18 AM

2013-11-22T09:18:20-05:00

If a command specifically states rank levels commensurate with awards, then that command is wrong and should be subject to serious IG investigation. However, as has been stated, the more prestigious awards are usually awarded to higher-ranking Soldiers because the scope of their position and field of their work is higher than lower-ranking enlisted. <div><br></div><div>When I deployed, I was the Ops officer in a G1. I had thirteen Soldiers reporting to me. I would funnel their information from the various cells (awards, evaluations, PA/SR, etc) into coherent data for the G1. While each cell had an E7 or E6 as the NCOIC, I had to know everything about each cell. They were narrowly focused, I was broadly focused. Therefore, at the end of the tour, I received an MSM while most of them received an ARCOM. </div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2013 1:24 PM

2013-11-22T13:24:56-05:00

Not at all. I saw this a lot when I worked as an awards clerk for a brigade S-1. When a battalion returned from deployment and we started processing the unit's awards, it was shocking. E-4 and below were getting ARCOMs while E-6 and E-7 were getting Bronze Stars all from the same unit and section...all with the same achievements listed.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2013 9:51 PM

2013-11-23T21:51:59-05:00

Sorry Im kinda late on this but, wow, I hear alot of gripes about "the standard" and it shouldnt be as such. Look if you did our job and you went above and beyond then you would be awarded as such. As a SGT and SSG I was awarded the BSM, was I looking for the award, no , did it surprise me, yes, because I wasnt focusing on the award , I was focusing on getting my guys home safe and doing my "job" to the fullest. I m sorry some of you got "robbed" but damn its just a ribbon. We all know what we have down range and in garrison, if you feel you did your job to the fullest of your capability then so be proud of that and dont worry about the ribbon. Having the most awards doesnt make you the winner!!

Response by SGT Brendan Beely made Nov 23 at 2013 10:43 PM

2013-11-23T22:43:21-05:00

Sadly, despite AR 600-8-22 clearly stating the contrary, this is exactly what happens in practice. I've seen first hand a more than deserving SGT, who was serving as a weapons squad leader for an Airborne Infantry Rifle Platoon at the forward-most FOB in Afghanistan, be recommended by his detachment commander for a BSM. Our CO gets the paperwork and says, 'There is NO WAY IN HELL that I am going to be the commander that gave an E-5 a Bronze Star. Have them rewrite it as an ARCOM.' This was in 2003, and the problem has not gotten any better.

Response by CW3(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 12:11 AM

2013-11-24T00:11:31-05:00

Tying an award to a rank has always been one of my pet peeves. Awards should be based off of merit and nothing else. Give the award based on what happened and not the rank of the individual.

Response by CSM Stuart C. O'Black made Nov 25 at 2013 10:02 PM

2013-11-25T22:02:52-05:00

<p>I seen a lot of good comments and negative ones. I think there will always be negativity when it comes to awards because only those surrounding the issue will understand why or why not one person was given an award. I also agree that deployment awards are the most frustrating. Does the PVT with 15 months of Service get the ARCOM as well as his PSG? I have only seen PSGs proud to pin the award on their Soldiers uniform but they did not do the same thing or scope of responsibility.</p><p><br></p><p>**However, the regulation does state:  "the award should reflect both the individual’s level of responsibility and his or her manner of performance. " So a PVT may have done something pretty well above his grade but minus heroism his level of responsibility will not be that of a Commander etc...  </p><p><br></p><p>When I review awards I look at periods of service, impacts and at what level their  achievement affected/impacted. Squad, Platoon, Company, Battalion etc.. The broader and higher the impact the more it may merit the award - REGARDLESS of rank again  with individual’s level of responsibility and his or her manner of performance period. I read the award and see if the write up merits the award. I don't look at who it is for so rank won't impact judgment.</p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p></font><p><br></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><p><br></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><p><br></p><p><br></p></font></font>

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2013 9:25 PM

2013-12-02T21:25:40-05:00

I would contend, NO. There are several reasons for this. I am think of the origins of two awards in particular. The Air Medal and the Bronze Star.

The Air Medal started out in WWII to recognize those in the Air War. They were taking heavy casualties and the military wanted to make an award to reward those in the Air Corps. The criteria back then was survive. If you made it through your missions you got it as for serving in the Air War.

The Bronze Star Medal stated the same way. First the infantrymen got the CIB. But leadership wanted to raise morale and give them a medal for those on the ground. The original name was the "Ground Medal." I am sure it took no less than 1 General, 5 Colonels, and a handful of SGMs to think of that. It came to pass as the Bronze Star Medal. All Infantry that received a CIB also received the BSM as service medal. It was always a service medal.

Later you would be able to obtain the V device on the Bronze star and now the AF also gives out Air Medals with a V device also. I think it is fitting. Senior personnel in the military take on additional responsibility and device something for their service.

Napoleon would often refer that men will fight for a small piece of cloth and if he had a yard of ribbon he could take over the world, or something like that.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2013 1:00 AM

2013-12-04T01:00:09-05:00

How about a view from the Air side - my fellow Security Forces members for years would stand in Wing formations watching paper pushers getting all sorts of high level awards for stuff that was routinely part of their job. While we who are the 'Army for the Air Force' never received anything. When we deployed overseas, under centcom we actually started to receive a few awards here and there - but the same problem occurred, the higher awards went to the upper ranks who were back in the safe areas while our lower enlisted personnel were either on the wire or outside of it running offensive patrols. So this problem is not limited to one branch - the problem runs through all, unfortunately.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2013 5:40 AM

2013-12-04T05:40:36-05:00

Soldiers should receive awards based on performance, responsibility and going above what is required of them. We often forget that an award is a representation of an individual's achievements that soldier's performance is being rewarded not the fact that they have gotten promoted.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2013 5:40 AM

2013-12-04T05:40:39-05:00

Response by SSG Christopher Freeman made Dec 4 at 2013 12:27 PM

2013-12-04T12:27:53-05:00

Simply put no. Does it happen? Hell yes. We as leaders need to do what our rank can handle to prevent this from happening. On the other hand, if you were offered say an MSM for a deployment while those similar in rank and position received an ARCOM, would you fight to have it changed? Most would say yes, but when it came time, nothing would happen. I was given an ARCOM for my deployment as a SPC. I felt that what i had done merited that. E-5s were given the same, and 1 SSG and everyone else up got MSMs. Not fair, but it happens all too often.

Response by 1SG Johnny Carter made Dec 4 at 2013 12:43 PM

2013-12-04T12:43:20-05:00

Absolutely NO! Soldiers regardless of rank should be put in for what they deserve! If a Soldier went above and beyond, met criteria then HIS/HER COC should fight tooth and nail for that award. Let them decide as per reg on if it should be down graded or not. So when that Soldier see who was the approving authority he/she knows that their immediate recommender recognized their sacrifices! Too many time I have had BN push back awards saying down grade. I send back saying NO let the next level of approver do their part. No one wants to be the BAD GUY but at the end of the day I say fight for what your Soldiers deserve! I mean lets be honest what are they gonna do bend your dog tags and deploy you????? lol

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2013 12:48 PM

2013-12-04T12:48:29-05:00

No. Award recommendations/approvals
should be based on the impact and extent of the soldier’s contributions.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Dec 4 at 2013 1:08 PM

2013-12-04T13:08:17-05:00

While most of agree that the answer to this questions should be "NO", I think we can all state examples of seeing this happen. Personally, I had a MSM downgraded to a ARCOM because the BN CDR wouldn't approve it. This was after I took the steps required to get a MEDPROS account to keep not just my company but my entire BN's medical readiness up to date while downrange as well as maintained personal records, leave and other information squared away for a company that was down range and deployed over 4 different base camps. During that same deployment I wrote a Soldier up for an ARCOM. It was a strong write up showing specific examples of how this soldier went above his normal duties to help out the overall mission. The same BN CDR downgraded it to an AAM. Now while I, like most here, are not or were not in the service for medals and ribbons, it still sucks to see all that hard work go without what I consider to be properly awarded while people that did nothing beyond what was tasked to them walks away with a BSM or MSM. Oh well, all my ribbons sure look great in my shadow box and knowing that I deployed several times and was able to bring each of my Soldiers home is the best award any leader can ask for.

Response by MSG Timothy Pender made Dec 4 at 2013 4:06 PM

2013-12-04T16:06:48-05:00

This is an issue throughout life, people that are perceived as not deserving getting acknowledgement for the efforts of others. I do not have a remedy for the situation. I do know that there is a perception of a glass ceiling when it comes to military awards, and that is based upon level of responsibility and manner of performance. Because this criteria is used more subjectively than objectively we come to the point of comparison by rank/skill level.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Dec 9 at 2013 1:59 AM

2013-12-09T01:59:15-05:00

Too late, unless it carries a "V" device, it isn't worth the paper it was written on. There are LTs with Bronze Stars for TOC watch. That shame will follow the services for the next 25 years.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2013 2:28 AM

2013-12-09T02:28:14-05:00

I can't help but think like an electrocuted dog in this situation. It's the job of the juniors to do the work and sometimes work more proficiently then the SSG or SFC appointed over them. but, is it not also the job of the junior to make the SSG look good? This occurs at all ranks and unfortunately seems like the higher you go the more glory you seek for yourself.

Too many times in even my short 4 years in the military I have seen the PFC' and SPC's who are deserving of awards get passed up. For instance;

SPC performs analysis on some bad guys operating in the area pushes that work up the chain and because of it ends up eliminating nearly all threat in the immediate area. SPC leaves country with an AAM however, the SSG recieved a DMSM for the accomplishments of running his section effectively and helping eliminate immediate threat to the 300+ people living on the COP. wtf?

In my opinion this is crap. but, it has only taught me that awards and decorations most of the time dont mean much. But, rather the fact that you know you did the job well. As long as I know what Ive done and it has been done according to the Core Values then I can carry it with pride.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2013 7:09 PM

2013-12-09T19:09:20-05:00

MSG,

The only way to fix this system is to start with the Leadership. When you have to sit in a Staff Meeting and listen to and I quote "SSG's and below will not receive MSMs only E7's and above" is a toxic contribution to the award system and unit morale. The award should be based off of the credible contributions that the soldier gave to the unit. When you start applying rank to awards, it sets a bad tone because a junior soldier will never expect to receieve better than what he or she is used to or entitled to because they have grown accustomed to a "false standard". Senior leaders automatically assume that because of the rank they hold they will receive a particular award and might not be deserving of it. Its even worse when you try to fight for what you deserve and you hear "Well, we are only allowed to give out an X amount of MSMs or ARCOMs per year according to BDE policy".

Another issue with awards is just pure laziness on the leaders part. If your BN/BDE says this award is due 60-90 days out, then do your part as a leader and take care of your soldier(s). Do not wait until the last minute to draft up an award that you know the soldier does not deserve or turn in an award that is pretty much a duplicate of someone elses award that PCS'd recently. That leader will ensure that they do everything in their power to receive the award they deserve, so they should treat their soldiers the same.

This is a soft subject that is rarely addressed by higher and it is something that should not be continued to get swept under the rug. I understand you can add to the regulation and enforce policies, but there is no checks and balances to the policies that are put in place and that is the other problem.

Response by MSG Michael Graham made Dec 9 at 2013 7:35 PM

2013-12-09T19:35:01-05:00

When those who are in charge INSIST on awards worthy of the job/situation be awarded to the appropriate person, then, and only then, will this begin to correct itself. When I pinned on my first rocker (SSG), I insisted on writing all the awards for my Soldiers until I retired. All my Soldiers received what they rightfully deserved in MOST instances. Those that were downgraded (including 90% of my own awards(not written by me)), were due to the leadership believing the Soldier did not warrant that particular award. I, also, watched many Soldiers receive awards based on their rank and not their job performance/responsibilities. I deployed 3 times as an E-7 and never received anything higher than an ARCOM. During one particular deployment I was the only E-7 in the Battalion that DID NOT receive a Bronze Star because, according to the CSM, they "ran out of Bronze Stars they could allocate". I do not believe I deserved a Bronze Star for that deployment but, neither did most of the other E-7s. 

Response by SFC James Baber made Dec 12 at 2013 9:24 PM

2013-12-12T21:24:11-05:00

All the awards pretty much lost their value during OIF I when it became a rank based emphasis. Until that goes out the window and they revamp the political and personal accountability, it will stay broken.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2013 9:28 AM

2013-12-17T09:28:04-05:00

Awards and decorations have their specific criteria. If someone if using rank to determine the awards any SM is going to receive they are wrong. I believe in the fact that if you earned it, you should get it. I would recommend an award for any deserving Soldier not using rank but the criteria specified in the regulation.

Response by SGT Derek Whitaker made Jan 1 at 2014 6:05 AM

2014-01-01T06:05:18-05:00

I have never agreed with getting an award just because you are a certain rank. i actually got into a pissing contest with a lt col over in iraq over an award once. i had more than enough arcomm's and could wipe my ass with them for a year or better. well, during this one awards ceremony, i was standing tall awaiting for my award to be pinned on me, and when she got to me, i got another....wait for it.....SURPRISE....yup, another damn arcomm. well being the bigger NCO that i was, i told her i didnt want it. she looked at me dumbounded as hell and asked me to repeat what i said. so i told her again i didnt want the arcomm and that i had a couple super troops that deserve more than an aam and to give it to one of them and give me their aam because i didnt care what i got, but thought they deserved more than they got. well low and behold, i was told to "shut the f#$k up" and accept my award or i would be standing in front of her for conduct unbecoming. to this day i dont agree with it, but what do ya do.....

Response by SFC Lamont Womack made Jan 3 at 2014 5:55 AM

2014-01-03T05:55:02-05:00

I seriously dislike the awards process in the Army. Awards are solely based on rank and how the leadership "personally" feels about the person or the job the person does (the actual job itself not the performance in the job). Example: You could have a Battalion or Brigade Commander who had a bad experience with a certain MOS somewhere in their career. That leader has a bad impression of anybody who does that job. So you could have the best Soldier in the whole theater doing that job but their award will still be downgraded or disapproved because the leader "personally" does not like or think that section is important. It has nothing to do with their level of responsibility or their performance.

I remember having a discussion with a member of my chain command about not getting a bronze star on one of my deployments. They have an awards board where they are "supposed" to read the awards and recommend if the award is approved or not. So I'm explaining why I should have got the BSM and I was asked how come the things I was saying weren't in the award write up. Everything I told them was directly from my award write up. Which goes to show they didn't read it. They looked at the "job" I was there to do and decided off of their personal opinion of whether the job was "important" or not. Thats how they determined my award. It had nothing to do with what "I" actually did or was responsible for during the deployment.

Response by SFC James Baber made Jan 11 at 2014 10:45 PM

2014-01-11T22:45:37-05:00

I think this is a good thread for those we are trying to get to join can see the substance of some things we discuss between us as current and former military, soft spoken as well as informational and mentoring types of postings.

We also have fun at times while remaining professional.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2014 11:22 AM

2014-01-15T11:22:29-05:00

This is a really touchy subject for my unit right now.
I am currently deployed with the 2d Cavalry Regiment in support of OEF.
Upon the start of the tour our RCO said that the standard award would be an ARCOM for junior enlisted, and that the higher ranking individuals would recieve higher level awards. our RCSM of course then changed the policy to be AAM's for junior soldiers and higher awards for higher rank.

Now there are really good soldiers, and not so good soldiers in the Army. I have a really hard time accepting that a good soldier who works his butt off and contributes to the platoon, troop, squadron and is an asset to complete the mission, walks off with a lesser award than someone who just floated under the radar the entire tour and will receive a higher award due to a pay grade or two.

In my professional opinion and from my perspective there are good junior enlisted soldiers who do a lot harder work, and put there best on the line day in and day out, and they deserve more than the "pat on the back" they will receive because they are a PFC or SPC.

Awards should be based on merit and performance. period.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2014 2:04 PM

2014-01-15T14:04:36-05:00

Short answer: it seems that way because it is that way.

Response by SFC James Baber made Jan 15 at 2014 3:54 PM

2014-01-15T15:54:57-05:00

We already discussed most of what you have mentioned in another thread about rank being used to discriminate when it comes to awards, it is a good thread. You should check it out, many good responses and informative opinions and some factual data as well.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2014 11:42 AM

2014-01-17T11:42:49-05:00

No, 600-8-22 states nothing about SM rank having any justification of awards. The award is supposed to reflect the actions and or work that has been done to be fecommended for said award. Does rank factor in to awards? Yes, and it is wrong. I have been down graded from MSM and BSM due to scope of responsibility. Which is nice was of saying you don't have enough rank on your chest. Although I was working out of my MOS during deployment and I have always had a duty mos higher than my pay grade.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2014 11:57 AM

2014-01-17T11:57:04-05:00

I have never believed that any award should have a rank requirement. On my last Iraq deployment, I was told that only SFC and above get BSM's. I said to myself, screw that. I submitted my two high speed SGT's for the award. Once I submitted the award to the company, I scheduled an open door appointment with the BC and CSM. I brought the NCO's counseling packets, mission SITREP's, and all supporting documents on their performance. I stayed in their office for three hours justifying the award.

It was worth it. Both received their BSM's. I thumb my nose at any rank-award requirement.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2014 9:46 PM

2014-01-17T21:46:16-05:00

Responsibility - that is the word to use when doing awards. Rank should not have anything to do with it. I also see it when it comes time to PCS Soldiers say "I have been here for 3 years so I should get an ARCOM". By sticking to a rank based ideology it waters down our award system.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2014 10:57 PM

2014-01-17T22:57:58-05:00

It should not be based on rank at all. Most of us have first hand experience of this time and time again. I hope this will change in the future and the ones who deserve the higher award gets it and for the ones who just doing the minimum to get by should get what they deserve that AAm or COA that the PV2s, SPCs and SGTs are getting after doing all the hard work and going above their duties and doing extra.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 8:22 AM

2014-01-22T08:22:06-05:00

Rewards should not be "reserved based on rank". That being said, obviously, a SPC or SGT will likely have much less impact on anything than a SFC or 1SG. Additionally, higher ranking personnel receive credit for all of the achievements of those they supervise directly and indirectly, therefore the chance for them to receive a higher award are greatly increased. Is it fair that higher ranking personnel get credit for the achievements of those they supervise and therefore get higher awards? Well, you would assume that superiors set the conditions and issued the guidance that allowed subordinates to achieve success and earn their awards, although this is sometimes not the case. As for unit limitations (written or unwritten) set on awards, (For example, a SGT or SSG cannot be awarded an MSM for a PCS award due to the fact that his/her PSG will not be allowed to receive anything more than an MSM.) sometimes that does not take into account what contributions/achievements were actually made by the individuals involved. A brief review of regulations reveals that there is very broad guidance on criteria for earning any specific award. That explains why there are so many opinions as to who is eligible for what. My experience has been that if you are doing what you do in hopes of being "justly" rewarded or recognized, you will most often find yourself disappointed.

Response by SGT Gary Frank made Jan 22 at 2014 4:53 PM

2014-01-22T16:53:00-05:00

Unlike European Armies, the US Military isn't supposed to designate Awards for Merit based upon Rank. That said, the DoD [I pronounce as Dud] allocates a finite number of each award. Commanders must make a decision [right or wrong] as too who will receive these awards. Unfortunately, there is a Demographic Quota that Commanders must adhere too when issuing Awards and Promotions.

I have both witnessed and experienced this type of event when I was in the Army,

1981-96

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2014 2:03 PM

2014-01-27T14:03:53-05:00

This is one of the thing that is happening in my unit right now. We are coming to the end of the deployment and all the awards have been submited. Now they are coming back down graded. It seem that they are not even interest in what the soldier has done just the rank on there chest. There are sodiers filling positions above there grade, and that makes no difference. I hate the system because I live by the NCO creed. "I will be fair and impartial when recommending rewards and punishments".

Response by SSG Joe Jordan made Jan 27 at 2014 2:26 PM

2014-01-27T14:26:26-05:00

NO, I don't think all awards should be based off of rank. I honestly believe it should be for the job you have done while you're in a particular unit and time period. I have personally noticed first hand a senior SFC and another SSG get awarded the Bronze Star. They were both extremely overweight, flagged, couldn't pass a APFT to safe their life and only did what was told of them as a Convoy Commander in Iraq from 07-08. I personally logged in more than 4oo,ooo miles as a Convoy Commander, multiple SAF engagements, countless IEDs and IDF barrages to count for. I told my Commander that I didn't want the award I was going to be given because it was like a kick in the groin to me, for all of my Soldiers that were with me and for everything that I've done.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2014 1:02 AM

2014-02-03T01:02:37-05:00

SGT,

I think this is something that any SM that's served more than a day in the Army has experienced. Even though this reason is not stated for why an award is down graded we all know it is. Even when well deserved, it'll still get down graded because of rank.

My answer is NO!

Response by COL Judy Roberson made Feb 3 at 2014 2:02 AM

2014-02-03T02:02:01-05:00

I can say a lot about this but I am going to keep it short. Of course not!

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 1:03 PM

2014-02-08T13:03:21-05:00

You have to realize awards are based off of responsibility. Was the SGM only in the unit for 8 weeks? How long was the SGM in the regiment. Only 8 weeks in one job isn't right but I bet that award covered other time somewhere else in the regiment.

Response by SGT Nathan Huff made Feb 8 at 2014 8:13 PM

2014-02-08T20:13:51-05:00

Welcome to the Army.

My grandfather who served in WW2 was at at a few battles and Earned himself a Bronze he was just a PFC.

I know what you are saying. Rank and how they give out awards is an insult to those actually doing the work and is in harms way.

I was in a unit for 4 1/2 years and I could give you a list of things I did for that unit. to include going forwards and fixing a mail room that had failed inspections for over a year, then to return and fix our units mail room that was also a failure. while training an entirely new team to run the place. I could go on and on about everything I did. I walked away with a AAM as mt ETS PCS, after it had been downgraded because of my rank.

I did the job of two ranks higher then mine and at time I did the position of a warrant as the PAS chief of HQ.

Awards should be given off of what you actually did, not by the rank on your chest.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2014 9:20 AM

2014-02-13T09:20:49-05:00

This is like talking about religion and politics. No it should not be based on Rank per AR. Everyone up top doesnt see it that way though. The awards system is broke!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 1:56 AM

2014-02-19T01:56:46-05:00

No, I seen it done on my most recent deployment

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 3:37 AM

2014-02-19T03:37:18-05:00

Not at all. In our detachment we don't award by rank, but by merit. We have E-5s and E-6s in my unit getting ARCOMs for the deployment while everyone on my team, to include a Corporal, ais getting BSMs. Who cares about your rank? I'm much more concerned with what you accomplished.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2014 7:42 PM

2014-03-04T19:42:43-05:00

There are some really great comments on here. I really like the ones about stop making awards mandatory for PCS, ETS, and deployment. Love it!

Response by SFC Don J. made Mar 4 at 2014 9:18 PM

2014-03-04T21:18:30-05:00

I was an E-5 Squad leader at the end of Desert Storm and my platoon leader told me

E-6's and above were being put in for a BS. She said she put me in for one because I was a squad leader. I convinced her to give it to my Cpl team leader instead. I had more pride seeing it on his chest than I would have had wearing it on mine.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Mar 6 at 2014 2:57 PM

2014-03-06T14:57:15-05:00

Saw it happen during/after OIF, never agreed with it, most likely was someone at the BDE level had a "policy" based on rank.....should be based off of accomplishment/service during the deployment.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2014 3:02 PM

2014-03-06T15:02:13-05:00

SPC Warden,

You bring up a great point. Just as reference, I have not received a BSM for
every one of my deployments and I have been fortunate enough to be in units
that judge awards from scope of responsibility and level of performance.

Do I believe the award has been over used? Yes. Do I believe that the BSM I
earned carries the same weight as the BSM my grandfather earned in WWII? Absolutely
not.

It’s a tough problem to tackle. I think you must start with scope of
responsibility and level of performance. That is how I balanced awards when I
was a commander. Unfortunately, I think a part of your comment derives from the
responsibility piece. We commonly link rank with level of responsibility. Not
saying that is correct, but as a rule the higher rank you achieve, the more
Soldiers you are responsible for thus easier to quantify that aspect of awards.

BLUF: The BSM has been over used and shouldn't be based on rank. Some units
are better than others when handling awards. This is a good debate.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2014 3:39 PM

2014-03-06T15:39:20-05:00

I saw this happen in both tours I've been on, and I still think it's utter BS for a 2LT who never left the wire getting a BSM for being a PL. Not saying that the LT's job isn't hard, it is, it's a lot of long nights and early mornings, plus middle of the night wake ups because your soldier f'ed up, but we all busted our butts over there and to just hand out an award like that feels like a slap in the face. I know I earned my ARCOMs and my AAMs and when it's all said and done that's all that matters to me.

Response by SSG Robert Blum made Mar 6 at 2014 3:42 PM

2014-03-06T15:42:10-05:00

I have deployed numerous times, and have served as a
Gunner, Driver, Team Leader, and Squad Leader during those deployments. As a
private and a Specialist I would have agreed with you, but only because of my
own ignorance. Think about it, as a Soldier your day starts (depending on MOS
& mission) with WARNO, and ends when you return to the FOB and complete
recovery.

Team Leaders, Starts the WARNO, then PCC/PCIs, and ends
after a meeting with the Squad Leader, after recovery.

Squad Leaders, Receive a Mission, Issue the WARNO, Make
a tennitive plan, Start the
Necessary Movement, RECON the area, Complete the Plan, Issue the complete Order
(your mission brief), and during all of that they run around and supervise
his/her NCO's and Soldiers to ensure that what they need to do is happening. (
8 Troop Leading Procedures), and end there day with debrief and stroyboards.

Platoon Sergeants, Busy enough tracking his Squad
leaders, and he/she still has to deal with "Beans and Bullets"
ensuring that the Platoon has the right equipment, at the right time, for the
right mission. Mentors his LT, reviews Debriefs and storyboards, and deals with
the 1SG and CSM.

Platoon Leaders, On platoon missions (refer to the Squad
Leaders day) Squad Sized missions, the PL may go out with all of his/her
squads. Normally attends two or three meetings a day, and decides the best
course(s) of action for missions to properly meet the Commanders intent.

Now lets look at the Bronze Star- AR 600-8-22 ch3-15

The Bronze Star Medal was established by Executive Order
9419, 4 February 1944 (superseded by Executive Order 11046, 24 August 1962, as
amended by Executive Order 13286, 28 February 2003).

The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who,
while serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the United States after 6
December 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious
achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, in
connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while engaged in
military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which
the United States is not a belligerent party. Title 10, United States Code,
section 1133, (10 USC 1133) limits award of the Bronze Star Medal to service
members receiving imminent danger pay. Awards may be made for acts of heroism,
performed under circumstances described above, which are of lesser degree than
required for the award of the Silver Star. The Bronze Star Medal may be awarded
for meritorious achievement or meritorious service according to the following:

(1) Awards may be made to recognize single acts of merit
or meritorious service. The lesser degree than that required for the award of
the Legion of Merit must nevertheless have been meritorious and accomplished
with distinction.

Meritorious service/achievement- An act which is well
above the expected performance of duty. The act should be an exceptional
accomplishment with a definite beginning and ending date. The length of time is
not a primary consideration; however, speed of accomplishment of an important
task can be a factor in determining the value of an act. Meritorious Service
which is distinguished by a succession of outstanding acts of achievement over
a sustained period of time. Individual performance must exceed that expected by
virtue of grade and experience, based on accomplishments during an entire tour
of duty.

So My answer is Yes I think the Bronze Star should be
awarded to SSG and above for Meritorious service while deployed, providing that
Soldier served in a duty position commensurate to his/her pay grade.

Response by SSG Jason Hoadley made Mar 6 at 2014 4:19 PM

2014-03-06T16:19:38-05:00

I happen to have a BSM,

I earned in during my first tour in Iraq.

I was a CPL/E-4..

It was a great honor to recieve it!

But when a short stay(90 days or less) TOC lacky was give one, it felt that the award didn't hold the same value anymore.

The TOC lacky's BSM was reviewed by a few concerned Field Grade officers..
In the end the award was given in accordance with AR 600-8-22, because there was a single mortar attack of that camp

I do personally feel that the BSM is slightly over issued.

But if it is within the standards set forth by the AR, then so be it..

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2014 4:28 PM

2014-03-06T16:28:00-05:00

I have deployed 6 times as an officer. I have one BSM.

Just some raw data FYSA.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2014 5:05 PM

2014-03-06T17:05:09-05:00

This is just my two cents but I see nothing wrong with Senior Leaders getting ARCOM's instead of BSM/MSMs. The award system is faulted among many ranks, and when you can't beat them you try to join them. It's nice to be awarded a little something more then others if you did accomplish more then the others. I remember as a SGT in D 1-503 IN Senior Line Medic role in Ramadi, going to the S1 to drop off end of tour awards and the S1 CPT looking at ARCOM write ups, in which one was mine. He stated "whats up, Sgt Jolly not getting a BSM; I just got mine turned in"

The facts were I had hauled in over 40 injuried US personnel from point of injury, often in fire fights, and led a team of trigger puller through the rough environment of Mid city Ramadi. The S1 CPT only left the FOB when taking personal actions for review at a larger camp via air.

I took this back to my 1SG, and simply he stated I was doing my job as a medic. That running around under fire, treating guys, and evac them back was what I was there for. He said the S1 CPT probably shouldnt get one either, but it was never for him to decide.

Enlisted members often will get so wrapped up in rank and awards we loose sight of the target, and certain units require a paradigm shift in thought.

I'm working under the guidance of a COL now that will PCS to War College soon, he has been here for almost a year. If I'm doing the award write up it will be for an ARCOM, his job as Chief has been paid by money and benefits for him and his family.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2014 8:36 PM

2014-03-06T20:36:56-05:00

I have deployed twice, once to Iraq and once to Afghanistan. I saw this exact scenario play out both times, and it was under completely different leadership. I don't understand the justification that certain ranked individuals are eligible for a certain award, while others cannot earn them because they are too low ranking. I actually knew of a situation where Soldiers in my unit were recommended for Bronze Stars (mostly SSGs), but they got shot down because these individuals were not Platoon Sergeants or above, and the Brigade met its quota for that award. I was floored when I heard that, for two reasons. I always thought awards were supposed to be merit or achievement based, not based on rank. I also never expected to hear that there was a maximum quota for an award. This stuff just doesn't make sense to me and I think it goes against the Army Values 100%, as well as the NCO creed!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2014 8:45 AM

2014-03-07T08:45:02-05:00

I'm currently deployed and we are actually in the process of writing our end of tour awards now. One thing to realize is that the BSM and the MSM are the save level of award. The only difference is that the BSM is awarded during a time of conflict. But if I put in a soldier for a BSM it doesn't get downgraded to an MSM, it gets downgraded to an ARCOM.

As far as it being "rank based", I disagree with making awards rank based. I am putting some of my NCOs in for BSMs and will be upset if they don't get them. It should be based on their performance/achievements.

I am also opposed to this "awards board" that the Army has gone to. Originally we wrote up a 638 and sent it to the approvers and they either approved it or recommended downgrade or downgraded. An awards board is an extra step where a group of people sit and deliberate on whether MY soldier deserves the award that I'm putting them in for?? That's the approvers job and shouldn't be allowed to be delegated to a committee. I could see the utility IF the board's purpose was just to catch and correct clerical errors, but even then, in the old days, a high speed 71L specialist could do that in 5 minutes. We are adding beauracracy under the pretense of efficiency IMHO.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2014 8:58 AM

2014-03-07T08:58:55-05:00

I think that it depends on the unit that you are in. When I deployed to Iraq during OIF 3/4 I received 2 Bronze Stars as an E-5. (One with a V device). From what I remember at least 95% of the people that I deployed with received a Bronze Star due to the mission that we had as the first DA selected MiTT. Do I think all of these soldiers deserved a Bronze Star, probably not. But the point is that rank had nothing to do with awarding the medal.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2014 10:27 AM

2014-03-07T10:27:51-05:00

I had a similar discussion with a First Sergeant recently, regarding a Specialist I knew, who had been "traded" for lack of a better word, to another battalion. The issue was regarding PCS awards, the fact that his PCS award should have encompassed his entire time with the Brigade, and his new unit had him do his own write-up but told him based on his rank alone that he could only write it up for an AAM. Having had this Soldier under my tutelage for some time before he moved over, I reviewed his rough draft. Based on the strength of the achievements, I encouraged him to put it as an ARCOM. His current leadership wouldn't even entertain the idea. I spoke to my S-1 about it, and the BDE had asked for "pre" award numbers, long before the write-ups, and weren't allowed to deviate from these predictions. Later, I spoke with my OPS SGM (former 1SG of ours), he laid out PCS award levels as follows: Actions directly contributed to success of Company mission: AAM, Actions directly contributed to success of Battalion mission: ARCOM, Actions directly contributed to success of Brigade mission: MSM. Seemed like a fair system to me, upon hearing the situation he also disagreed with the actions of the Soldier in question's current leadership.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Mar 7 at 2014 12:58 PM

2014-03-07T12:58:47-05:00

I have come to realize that the BSM and MSM mean about the same thing. The BSM has more meaning when in insert the V device...at that time, it becomes something really special and hard earned. I don't have BSM or MSM, but I can live without them.

Response by SSG Christopher Settembrino made Mar 7 at 2014 2:16 PM

2014-03-07T14:16:46-05:00

Well SPC Warden, I can tell you I am deployed right now and that isn't happening at least at the Platoon Sergeant level. I am a SSG and am a platoon sergeant. All of the platoon sergeants in our company are getting ARCOM's. Our unit is trying to fix the awards system here and put meaning back into the awards. My NCO's know that they need to reward the soldiers with awards based on the scope of their responsibilites. If they are just doing the job they are supposed to do then they aren't getting an ARCOM. But if they go above and beyond what they normally do then of course they are going to be put in for an ARCOM.

Response by MSG Gene Potocki made Mar 7 at 2014 2:21 PM

2014-03-07T14:21:03-05:00

I've read several of the responses here. It's a sad fact it is a game of sorts based on rank.

I.E. Grenada (82nd Airborne) Every E-6 and above received a BSM, E-5's a ARCOM, and E-4 and below an AAM. (there were some Vietnam vet's pissed that they didn't get a star for their CIB for this deployment) we had one NCO who had deployed to Haiti '65, Vietnam '68, and Grenada '83 all with the 82nd.

Panama the same thing happened in the 82nd, Same award breakdown based on rank. This time I was in the 75th Ranger Regiment we didn't receive any awards except for our CIB's (1st award again for some of us Granada Raiders, 2nd combat deployment, based on time era in the reg's) and combat device for our jump wings. The Regiment's philosophy was you were just doing your job.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Mar 7 at 2014 3:15 PM

2014-03-07T15:15:37-05:00

That's been going on for a while - unjustly so, IMHO.  From what I can tell, the Bronze Star has now been downgraded to BS.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2014 10:15 PM

2014-03-08T22:15:14-05:00

So, I would offer a couple of things to think about with this topic.

1. Remember, we don't put ourselves in for our own awards, we are responsible for recognizing our subordinates for their achievements. If you feel a SM deserve any level award / recognition, then put them in for the award. If any member in your COC downgrades it, all you can do at that point is know you did what you could to to recognize that SM. Focus on their write ups and achievements and why they deserve the award....in the end, it is out of your control.'

2. IMHO, if you define your military service by what you wear on your chest, then there is your first problem. I understand that it is human nature to want recognition, but we are not in military service for awards, we are in it to "support and defend the constitution" and for the brothers and sisters we serve with. We all understand that military award system is broke, got it. But if you can look yourself in the mirror at the end of your tour (ETS/Retirement) and hold your head high, then that is all the award / recognition you need.

3. Why worry about what other people received? Can you change it? Did you submit them for something else? Yes, officers tend to receive higher awards / recognitions. Yes, there are deserving senior NCOs that deserve higher awards / recognition than the officers that they serve with. But again, how can YOU change what they received? Outside of a little jealousy / butt-hurtedness, how does their award effect your daily life?

4. With respect to all the "outside the wire comments," the commanding general of the storied 101st ABN DIV made a great statement when he said "don't judge your importance by your proximity to the objective." Just keep that in mind when you bash "FOBits" and officers for the awards they receive.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2014 12:11 AM

2014-03-09T00:11:49-05:00

Get rid of all awards that are not valorous in nature with the exception of the Military Volunteer Service Medal. The latter medal also shows going above and beyond and service to country. All other actions can be captured in your OER/NCOER or Counseling Packets. Create a permanent counseling record if it's necessary to have proof. Good or bad. You are not entitled to an award. We should learn something from our humble forefathers.

If I forgot to list one, that you feel should be on the list, please feel free to add to.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2014 1:02 AM

2014-03-09T01:02:39-05:00

Based on your statement sir, I totally disagree. Awards and decorations should be based on the act and what you've earned. Never on rank. As a leader, you cannot justify to your Soldiers that so and so earned a BSM or MSM when all they did was shuffle papers. That's what they see. I have no problem with anyone getting any award if they've earned it. I've see too much of it and I cannot explain nor rationalize this to my Soldiers. They know it's unfair and it's very hurtful. Unfortunately, the trend continues. I will continue to recommend my Soldiers for what I think they deserve, despite what anyone else says. There is no one on this planet that can pressure me into anything else. I've even turned down awards because it was unfair.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2014 1:10 AM

2014-03-09T01:10:02-05:00

I believe that the award should fit the accomplishment. Both times that I deployed under the 82nd we fell under the rank-based, blanket citation deployment award system. Each MOS had their specific citation at their appropriate rank. E-6 and below received an ARCOM, and E-7 and up received a BSM. In my current unit, the awards are written by the Team Sergeants. It's left up to them to put their Soldiers in for the award that they feel is appropriate. For instance, while my Team Sergeant may feel that everyone in our team deserves a BSM, another Team Sergeant has put two of his four NCOs in for ARCOMs.

Response by CPL David Levy made Mar 9 at 2014 6:24 PM

2014-03-09T18:24:41-04:00

I have mixed emotions about this topic..

One one hand, my Grandfather was awarded the BSM for saving 68 lives back in WW2 while serving in the navy, his story was published and some of the people who were saved by him, remembered him and honored him at his funeral.

I served 6 years, 3 tours, and every tour I saw my senior leaders get a BSM and they did not do anything in my opinion that would compare to what my Grandfather did.

I certainly wanted to follow in my grandfathers footsteps and get one, to tell the story, but was given nothing more than a ARCOM medal x3 for my tours, and humbly accepted them and made no fuss.

On the other hand, I felt those who are getting those Bronze Star Medals, probably earned them, I guess, and its none of my business. But one has to question why a Platoon Sergeant gets a bronze star for delivering chow at lunch every day out to his mechanics on the flight line, never leaving the wire once in his 12 month deployment.

I guess in the end, the medals mean nothing more than the stories we tell about them, and heroes like my grandfather taught me the true lesson, to keep my mouth shut, worry about myself, and don't boast about my accomplishments, and one day, on my death bed, if I have lived my life Holy and True to the Lord, people will remember the good deeds and big heart, everything will take care of itself. My grandfather never spoke of his military experience, never once showed us his medals or his accomplishments, and when he passed away, the battle buddies and loved ones did the digging to show his valor, heroism, courage and selfless service. Everything did take care of itself.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2014 7:44 PM

2014-03-09T19:44:10-04:00

SPC, one thing you have to look at is the level of responsibility a Soldier of any rank has as well as what they have done. The higher you get in rank the more of a manager you become for the most part. Commanders, Platoon leaders, CSM's and 1SG's for instance set the tone for their unit on many areas including, discipline, PT, Operational Tempo, traninig and moral. That being said awards "should" NOT be based solely or heavily on rank or position as the primary reasons. I don't believe in writing my own award either, I send up bullets to my boss and what they put me in for is what I get.

I think its very important to point out that if your in it for medals on your chest then your in the wrong business. The first award I received in my career was an AAM. During the ceremony another Soldier received the same award for literally organizing a filing system while I earned mine through hard physical labor and a lot of sweat. I was unhappy to get it the same time as that Soldier and felt it lessoned the award at first. Later as I matured as a Soldier I realized that anytime someone puts you in for an award especially out of the blue you should be very proud of whatever the award is. I also learned that everyone in the unit and formation knows who earned what and who wrote their own awards and they respect one much more than the other. Don't worry about awards, work hard do the right thing and LEAD. Training good leaders gives you a hell of a lot better feeling than the medals on your chest ever will.

Response by COL Austin Schmidt made Mar 10 at 2014 11:53 AM

2014-03-10T11:53:21-04:00

Yo Ho Warriors !!! I'm "Old" so I have info ... the MSM was developed to serve as the "administrative" Bronze Star ... and by golly ... just like Ragu ... "it's in there" ... this was because all the REMFS in Vietnam were getting awarded the BSM for sitting around Danang and HQ in Saigon ... and the original BSM Certificate stated "For Meritorious Achivevement in Ground Operations Against the Enemy" ... the Army Air Corps had already come up with the Air Medal for their guys and the Ground Forces didn't have a "like award" ... yup ... it's supposed to be for gettin' dirty and fightin' the Bad Guys ... but the E-Ring Rangers who went from one air conditioned office in the Pentagon to the next ..."deployed", of course, all wanted to have a neat sticker on their Dress Blues ... and of course, that led to "quotas" for awards ... and the last guys on the quota list are the guys in the crap ... it never changes ... the actual Warriors never get what they deserve because the REMFS have taken all the good stuff. Drive On !!! Hooah !!!

Response by COL Austin Schmidt made Mar 10 at 2014 12:01 PM

2014-03-10T12:01:16-04:00

Yo Ho Warriors !!! Yup ... the guys in the mud always get the short end of the stick. The 1944 BSM Certificate read " For Meritorious Achievement In Ground Operations Against The Enemy" ... The E-Ring Rangers came up with the MSM to be the "administrative" BSM and if you look at it, there is the BSM in the MSM ... however, the Staff Weenies always get first pick over what comes down the pipeline and since they are "running the war", they miust, by definition, be "more worthy" of the BSM than some Machine Gunner in Upickavillage in Carjackistan ... so so we, the unwilling, led by the incompetenet continue to do the impossible ... Hooah and Drive ON !!!

Response by SFC James Baber made Mar 18 at 2014 10:25 PM

2014-03-18T22:25:24-04:00

SSG N.,

We have numerous discussions on this topic over the past 4-5 months here on RP and the overall consensus from many E6/E7s were that is the issue you speak of, but we have had many CSMs and Officers state it doesn't exist, but we as NCOs have seen it to many times to ignore or go down that easy, it exists for rank discrimination no matter how many senior leaders claim it doesn't, because when you have repeated complaints and statement from NCOs from varying fields and units stating the same thing, it is not a few disgruntled SMs it is reality.

The only thing you can do is try and give your Soldier the best and most honest support you can and try and be straight forward with them to ensure they know it was not them, it is how some commands perceive the way they should be given out.

Response by SFC Siva Williams made Mar 18 at 2014 11:02 PM

2014-03-18T23:02:24-04:00

There are commands that follow the philosophy you describe. My Doc and PA submitted a ARCOM for me. They were told that it would be downgraded to an AAM. The reason why was because I didn't have a ARCOM already. The S-1 said that I needed to have an ARCOM in order to get an ARCOM. This created problems as you can imagine. Now Adjutants habitually deny awards based on ranks. My last deployment was with 1st Air Cav. The award guidance was that every award packet had to have a PT card attached showing that the Soldier passed the APFT. What we weren't told is that the higher the PT score the greater the likelihood that the award would be approved. I had three Soldiers that went above and beyond that I submitted awards for. They were all denied. Not downgraded but denied. Two of the awards were ARCOMs and one was an Air Medal. You can't deny an award outright. It can be downgraded but not denied without the 638 being returned.
The solution to this issue is simple. Stop giving blanket awards just for getting on a plane twice. I can see AAMs for everyone just to say I went to OIF or OEF and all I got was an AAM. Why give ARCOMs and Bronze Medals for Soldier that only do their jobs. Save the big awards for those that demonstrate that they operate at a higher level of proficiency and efficiency than their peers. Soldiers expect to receive awards just for deploying. When I went to Desert Shield all we wanted was to come home alive. We didn't expect to receive any kind of award. We didn't expect awards during any of our deployments in the 90s. Now Soldiers line up at the ramp of the plane on the way home and receive awards while leaving. What have they done to earn an award? Not much of anything. We need to change this trend so that deserving Soldiers receive the recognition they deserve.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2014 6:10 PM

2014-03-24T18:10:04-04:00

Sadly thats just the way things are. I've seen and experienced the same thing before. The Army needs to do a "PURGE" and see what happenes then.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 24 at 2014 6:17 PM

2014-03-24T18:17:40-04:00

Well, look at it this way. If the system were to change, who would be the ones to change it? The big wigs, the decision makers with all the rank on their collars, right? Who does the system currently favor? Them, right? So why would it change? Why would they change a system that benefits them?

Never underestimate the motivation provided by human selfishness...

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2014 9:19 PM

2014-03-24T21:19:08-04:00

I completely understand where you are coming from. We share the same MOS and this is all I have seen over the past 12 years. I've sacrificed my own awards because my Joes weren't "deserving" of the recommended award or it wasn't "turned in on time." It's out of control and there needs to be a change.

Response by SGT Donald Croswhite made Mar 27 at 2014 8:48 PM

2014-03-27T20:48:12-04:00

I was only expecting an ARCOM when I deployed. I got what I was expecting. If some officer gets a bronze star, good for him. Him getting a bronze star doesn't effect my life or career in the least. Don't worry about others awards, it will drive you crazy in the end. If you feel your being fairly treated and awarded, then don't sweat the stuff you can't change.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 5:30 AM

2014-03-31T05:30:05-04:00

MSG, the awards system needs to be relooked. I for one believe that the Bronze Star should be a Valor medal only, just like the Silver Star. That would inturn make the MSM what the BSM is now except that it could be awarded in peace time and in war. Also, there needs to be another Combat/ Deployment award above ARCOM. The Air Medal rates higher than the ARCOM but is only available to a selct group. Door gunners and piolts who fly so many hours get them for achievement but we give out ARCOMs for full succesful deployments.

SEC Hagel has addressed the award issue and is taking steps in the right direction. However, the problem to me seems to be that the awards are vague. Therefore, as long as the write-up meets the loose criteria we put the soldiers in for it.

Just my opinion.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 11:13 AM

2014-03-31T11:13:36-04:00

Commandes and CSMs, no one else can fix it

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 9:07 PM

2014-03-31T21:07:09-04:00

This is a topic I hold near and dear to my heart, simply for the fact that I've been ssed over or denied so many awards that have been submitted. If Soldier A works at an 8 or a 9 his entire time in a unit, his accomplishments are considered standard, or what's expected of him, but then Soldier B, who normally works at a 4 or a 5, one day ramps his game up to a 9, he receives and award, because of his 'vast improvement'. Soldier A and Soldier B accomplish the same task at the same time, and Soldier A receives an award for what he did, but Soldier B does not. A team earn Brigade Battle Hero's and are recognized in front of a lot of Brass. All are submitted, since it's a team recognition, and are presented their awards during an Org Day. The awards are asked to be returned, since they were impact, and the LTC needs to sign them because of the given amount of time between submission and recognition. Only 2 come back. I've been in all situations, and, it really kills motivation to see everyone else getting awards, or higher awards, when you feel you've done more/better work than those that receive it. I've almost ACAP'd twice because my motivation was just destroyed. Why work harder when someone else will get your credit?

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2014 4:07 AM

2014-04-14T04:07:31-04:00

People interpret the requirement for awards differently and thats why you see some units award higher and some lower if we're strictly looking at adjacent units for comparrison.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2014 12:58 PM

2014-04-15T12:58:40-04:00

Awards can get a bad wrap sometimes. I personally think it is up the the leadership to manage this and make sure this does not happen. In answer to your question I have seen similar things as it pertains to awards (not sure to the extent you mention in your post). I would certainly hope that a Soldier would not return from a deployment and receive a Certificate of Achievement...but again this is up to the Soldier's Chain of Command to recognize the overcome.

Response by CPT Brandon Christensen made Apr 15 at 2014 1:13 PM

2014-04-15T13:13:04-04:00

I think its a numbers game. Especially on a deployment. The higher ups want to give out so many of each award so when they talk to the Generals, they can say I gave out this and this and this. Now did that Soldier actually deserve that award? Maybe maybe not. I can see it being a political game.

I try to not get involved with it. I base my recommendations of what I see the soldier do. If higher ups deem it worth more, they can upgrade or downgrade it if it fails that mark.

Hate to say answer a question with a question, but do you think we as a whole are uneducated about the requirements set forth for each award? I know I was never taught and was always told to write it well and aim for an ARCOM and that BN or even BDE will downgrade it if need be. Is that right? That was my old mentality until I took it upon myself to educate myself on the awards and the importance of each one.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2014 1:41 AM

2014-04-27T01:41:06-04:00

It shouldn't be that way. On my first deployment, I knew a SPC who did a hell of a job got a Bronze Star. However, the job he did which was intel, caught the BDE CDR's eye so he ate every single report that SPC did up. There were other soldiers who did just as much and even more in the same unit and they received ARCOMS [yours included]. The only time where I saw different was an Sapper SSG who was getting ready to PCS. He was rated as a squad leader even though was acting as a Platoon Sergeant. The amount of work he did in the company and battalion was unprecedented in my opinion. He helped set up a division wide "Sapper Stakes" which is a competition between squads of sappers & combat engineers specific MOS tasks. Two of his squads from his platoon came in 1st & 2nd and no it wasn't set up to where his squads would win. Once the competition was over, the entire division was in awe of how well the competition and obstalce were set up. Moving forward, when that SSG was getting ready to PCS, the battalion put him in for a MSM. The Bn Cdr sent that award to the CG's office 5 times before it got signed. Why? Because the CG's office kept saying it needed more "criteria" to justify the award. That was the only time where I saw a soldier got an award he deserved and was not cheated by his leadership by not getting something low like and ARCOM or an AAM

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 2 at 2014 8:49 PM

2014-06-02T20:49:26-04:00

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2014 7:03 AM

2014-06-09T07:03:15-04:00

Bottom Line it is "POOR LEADERSHIP!" There is no rank determination and that frustrates me the most. Not for me but those I have seen get awards downgraded for doing the same actions or better.

Of course it would take a few people to bring that to light before anything can be done. If several people wrote sworn statements there is a possibility it could change but unfortunately I doubt it.

I believe there should be a separate panel to evaluate awards but I am not sure how that would be fair either as they would not see the actions.

Again it would take several people to fight together for the "Right Thing to be Done"

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2014 6:49 AM

2014-10-09T06:49:44-04:00

If you want awards to accurately reflect someone's achievement, remove the name and any identifying information from the 638. The only information on there should be blocks for what the person did during their deployment/tour/time period.

Response by SFC Melker Johansson made Oct 9 at 2014 8:37 AM

2014-10-09T08:37:59-04:00

Awards should be determined by accomplishments and not by rank. Unfortunately, too many unit leaderships takes the lazy route and go strictly by rank and position.

During my last deployment, the unit required all deployment awards to be submitted before the 4th month into a 15-months deployment. So it was a clear message to the Soldiers that it did not really matter what they accomplished during the tour. You were getting your award strictly based on your rank and duty position. Officers and Senior NCOs got Bronze Stars while everyone else got ARCOMs.

Response by PO1 Ron Clark made Nov 21 at 2014 4:00 PM

2014-11-21T16:00:38-05:00

Nope, if a Commander chooses his awards he is creating nothing more than a ticket puncher. Ticket puncher is One who only does something if there is a prize in the crackerjack box for him. If an E1 distinguishes his or herself as Bronze Star material, then that's what they should be awarded. Not a letter of commendation or an attaboy, but the big award itself. When people are overlooked for something they truly deserve, then that sometimes creates animosity among unit.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2014 11:21 AM

2014-11-22T11:21:54-05:00

SSG Spangler....unfortunately, that is one of the hardest questions that will face as leaders. Simply put, NO, they should not be determined by rank. However, I don't see an issue with "guidance" about awards in relationship to level of responsibility and "traditional" ranks associated with those responsibilities (e.g. SSG Section Chief normally receives X, SFC Platoon Sergeant normally receives Y, CPT Company Commander normally receives Z). This should just be guidance and each award should stand on its merit alone.

What we, as leaders have to do is make sure we are articulating why a particular Soldier (service member) deserves a particular award verses someone else. And as mentioned above, we have to accurately portray why their level of responsibility warrants the award.

The other area we have to consider, and this more ties to combat awards, is how the level of responsibility and the level of performance contributes to mission accomplishment. Going outside the wire doesn't necessarily equate to a BSM....the same as never going out side the wire shouldn't disqualify someone from a BSM. People get upset when the SSG who leads his section of Soldiers outside the wire almost every day receives an ARCOM and then they see the BDE Staff MAJ receive a BSM....however what they don't always see is that BDE Staff MAJ was responsible for the entire logistics support to the BDE, affecting 4000+ Soldiers, while that SSG was responsible for his / her 10 Soldiers. This is just one example. And I am not saying that the SSG may not be equally deserving of a BSM, butI am also saying the MAJ who never leaves is too.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 3:33 PM

2014-11-23T15:33:53-05:00

What do E-7s and above receive for a one year Korea tour?

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2014 12:08 AM

2014-11-24T00:08:58-05:00

what do E-7s and up receive for a one year korea tour?

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Mar 9 at 2015 8:00 AM

2015-03-09T08:00:43-04:00

This has been debated before and although AR 600-8-20 does not specify a rank requirement for an specific award many times local policy will play into the decision. Is the award write up showing the necessary requirements for an MSM and the benefits for the Army.

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Mar 9 at 2015 8:06 AM

2015-03-09T08:06:43-04:00

A Soldier's rank is typically a indicator of level of responsibility and influence a person has. For example, a squad leader is hard pressed to reach the body of work of a CSM in charge of 800 troops

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 9 at 2015 8:10 AM

2015-03-09T08:10:33-04:00

As other's have said, rank shouldn't play a role, however it is generally an indicator of level of responsibility.

An MSM is an upper level award, and depending on what the soldier actually did, it may be hard to actually justify it. In the Marines, we generally don't see them before the Field Grade, Senior NCO level.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 8:34 AM

2015-03-09T08:34:22-04:00

The question has already been answered but I will add my two cents. Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS and SFC Michael Jackson, MBA hit it right on the head. Commanders at the battalion and above have a hard time recommending approval for a MSM because that's what they are probably going to get when they PCS or leave command.

If the Soldier had as much responsibility as a CSM or BN CDR the narrative must state that. Since the majority of general officers delegate approval of the MSM to the Soldiers BDE CDR the chances of it being approved is pretty slim.

If the Soldier is deserving but you don't think it's going to be approved pile other things on top of the PCS award. Get them a battalion coin, chip in for a nice plaque, have a nice going away BBQ and recognize them in front of the platoon, write an awesome letter of continuity for them, etc.

The good thing about it being downgraded is that the DA Form 638 will go into the Soldiers OMPF. That will show any centralized promotion board that the Soldier was recommended for a higher award but the chain of command downgraded it.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 8:45 AM

2015-03-09T08:45:27-04:00

Without knowing what the SM did I can not say whether or not he/she deserves the MSM. If you read the regulation and you still feel that the award is worthy then bring it up with the supervisor.

Awards are always going to be a hot button issue, but at the end of the day it is all about scope of responsibility.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 12:09 PM

2015-03-09T12:09:55-04:00

Was it his job? I will say even with a clear vision of what he did and how awesome it was it will always be viewed differently by the individual approving it.

I will fight tooth and nail for what I feel a SM has earned. But at the end of the day, that is relative to how I view it and will write it up to set him/her up for success. But I also have to look and answer the hard questions. An award is a privilege, and if I ever received an award and stated I deserve more, I feel, I have failed. Any award is better than no award.

I don't feel that is what you are saying, but I have strong feeling about people thinking they deserve more than whatever award they are given. If someone is doing something to get an award they should be in the Olympics...

Response by SGT(P) Khalid Wise made Mar 9 at 2015 1:04 PM

2015-03-09T13:04:25-04:00

Unfortunately, until there is new guidance (to include some previously suggested revamping of awards and clearer differentiation as well as distinction between types of awards wartime vs peacetime, etc) published by Awards Branch, we must utilize the system we have despite its' perceived flaws and use the power of the pen to be stewards of the changes we feel are needed. As long as your suggestions have a clear identification of the administrative shortcoming with a proposed solution, I have found Awards and my own MI Branch to be fairly receptive. I should hope similar receptions across the force (for the most part). GOD speed and good journey!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 2:34 PM

2015-03-09T14:34:31-04:00

I would recommend brainstorming with the soldier and those who interact with him on a regular basis to make sure you capture everything noteworthy. Once you have as strong a list as possible, collaborate with at least one person who has written an MSM or higher award to ensure your framing the soldiers contributions as effectively as possible.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 4:03 PM

2015-03-09T16:03:27-04:00

The AF plays this BS game as well. Achievements for Amn, Commendations for NCOs, MSMs for SNCOs. Someone always shoots it down regardless of why you wrote the decoration.

I understand and believe in sanity checking this situation...don't want to give E3 Johnny an MSM for doing a tour at an assignment where he showed up to work on time, did his job, and went home every day. I get it. I support that. I also get that rank is just ONE INDICATOR of the level of responsibility...however if E3 Johnny developed a whole new process which enabled your unit to do business better, faster, smarter, cheaper, deadlier - something that most would think an NCO would come up with, then why not give E3 Johnny a Commendation?? If E5 Bonehead was ranking on the scene and took charge, formed the response team, acquired and diverted resources, and accomplished a mission normally expected of a SNCO - hell yea give him an MSM.

Problem is politics, and I am quite fed up with politics in the military. Politics is the complete opposite of leading. If you can't handle E5 Bonehead getting an MSM because that is the same medal you'll get when you PCS and did nothing else to deserve better - don't take it out on E5 Bonehead. Go smack your parents for not raising you to be more motivated. If you see the level of the reward and the rank and stop right there without even reading or trying to understand why it was written - you fail and frankly are a rip off to tax payers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 4:10 PM

2015-03-09T16:10:33-04:00

The Soldier was selected by USARPAC to be the Ammunition Manager for Japan. The slot is for a GS-11. Soldier rebuild the program and implemented new procedures that helps the ammunition management program here in Japan work smoothly. Soldier was the finally approval for all ammunition movements. Soldier did a lot of coordination with training, operational load, Title X, and combat load ammunition for all Army units in Japan and the units that come train in Japan.

Response by CDR Andrew McMenamin, PhD made Mar 12 at 2015 1:55 PM

2015-03-12T13:55:23-04:00

I just finished 35 years. Its always been unfair and pay-grade discriminatory, at least in the Navy. Don't expect it to change - its senior leadership driven. As longs as the CMDCMs are in on the issue - which they are - look at their MSMs and LOMs, junior troops and junior officers will never be treated as equals when it comes to awards.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2015 6:16 AM

2015-03-29T06:16:55-04:00

Simply put. No.

I fought to get my E6 an MSM on Retirement. The E6 was a former E7 and took a reduction in rank to stay in. He was also an Air Reserve Technician. More than 30 years of honorable service deserved more than an Air Force Commendation medal. Squadron Cdr said no - but could not voice a reason beyond "that's just how we do it". I took it to the Wing Cdr and got it approved. Taking care of your people is what it's all about.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2015 4:47 PM

2015-03-29T16:47:10-04:00

Awards should be awarded do to achievement not rank. I know we have all seen that E-7 who did nothing on deployment get that shinning bronze star

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2015 8:56 PM

2015-03-29T20:56:35-04:00

Absolutely not! Add to this the "tradition" of recommending an end of tour award two months into a deployment... what a farce.

Response by LTC Curtis Madsen made Jun 13 at 2017 11:40 PM

2017-06-13T23:40:45-04:00

Do AAM impact awards have achievements like any other awards or do they have IMPACT in achievement? Ive seen it done, not sure if it's correct. Didnt see an example in the AR

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2019 1:09 AM

2019-08-09T01:09:11-04:00

Hell no, it’s never made it right. Unfortunately that’s how the higher ups have always seen it. What makes it even more sad that even how it’s changed over here [Afghanistan]. You got SGTs and SSGs performing at MSM/BSM levels [SFC] and for them to be recommended for that award the 638 has to be written as if that SM changed the war all by themselves. It’s ridiculous. The Army is definitely going to have a problem on their hands moving forward. Hell I a SSG whose about to get for 9th ARCOM for a deployment award if his MSM get downgraded for a deployment award

Response by SSG Kenneth Ponder made Mar 7 at 2020 3:12 PM

2020-03-07T15:12:07-05:00

No, but they ate and they will be!