Permanent Profile & APFT score on NCOER

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:34:30 -0400

So I was having a discussion at the office about NCOER's and placing APFT scores on them. It seems that we are being told to place all scores on the NCOER now, not just to quantify an excellence block. Seeing as I have a P2 profile and only complete pushups and the walk it doesn't seem right that I will only receive credit for one event vs a Soldier who can score on all three. I can only receive a GO/NO-GO regardless of how fast I can walk.

I know having a P2 shouldn't be a discriminator, but it seems that a lot of leaders (both NCO and officer) have a prejudice against Soldiers who cannot keep up with them do to lingering injuries. And stating, "regardless of P2 limiting profile he was able to..." seems to lead the door open for someone to think that the NCO is broke and can't hang with the young troops - which is true, to an extent.

So, my question here is complicated. Should a PT score be mandatory for the NCOER? Should the alternate events be scored? Should you identify on the NCOER that the NCO holds a P2 profile? Should not being able to perform the 3 event APFT be a discriminator?

Thoughts?

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2014 8:50 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:50:22 -0400

I do think a PT score should be mandatory for a NCOER because as NCO's we need to be graded on every aspect of being a soldier and NCO but if a NCO has a P2 profile the alternate events should be counted and not used as a discriminatory factor because then you fail that NCO by not giving him his rating so he knows where he lacks besides PT and keep him from improving on his discrepancies, its like not monthly counseling a soldier to keep him up to date on his pros his cons and what he needs to work on and how you think he can improve its not right.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2014 8:51 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 20:51:30 -0400

Great Post, My NCOs and I have talked about this as well in the past and While PT is a very important factor leaders understand limiting profiles. Now putting your actual score on the NCOER or not well i think that putting it on the NCOER (as well as the OER) by event would be fine, instead of just your unit knowing your PT Scores it would be HRC and future units.

On the larger scale while talking about the NCOER, you also need to take into account of the entire NCOER while this post is about PT you also need to ensure the other blocks are good to go. By ensure that you have that complete you will be good to go.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2014 9:54 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 21:54:08 -0400

I posted a similar thread now that I am on a perm profile. My solution for one of my high speed SFC who was an amazing walker was I put " o scored 100 points in the pushup and situp events and walked in XX:XX, the fastest walker in the company" and justified an excellent. She also was promoted from SSG to SFC with that NCOER as her last one.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2014 10:08 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:08:10 -0400

I think SFC Matthews hit the nail on the head. Just like with anyhting on the NCOER, it's all in how well it is written. Now I'm not saying write something that is not true!! That is a whole other topic.

I personally do feel that PT score should be reflected on the NCOER. Using a technique like SFC Matthews described is great for those on a profile. My personal reason for having them on there is this: In the past the only time a score was on the NCOER was to quantify an excellence. When the board looks at a file and they see a success rating with no score they don't know if that NCO scored 180 or 289. Both are passing and within the Army Standard without being awarded the APFT badge, however the one with the 289 (who persumebly scored 100% on p/u and s/u and missed 90% on the run by 1 point) is now categorized at the same level as the one who did their minimum on p/u and s/u and just got up becsause they feel that the Army standard is all they have to do to be competitive. While the standard is there for a reason, obviously the one who strives to exceed the standard inherintly shows more potential in most leaders eyes. Don't construe my reasoning as me saying that PT score should judge a leaders abilities, that is not what I am saying.

I have had this discussion with many leaders and get mixed emotions about it. I can generally attend a PT test and determine who would be on my side and who wouldn't. Give all you got, and do your best, and be proud to have it put on your "report card" (NCOER). You achieved it! Be proud of it!

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2014 10:36 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 22:36:24 -0400

DA Pam 623-3 Table 3-4 says:
"— For Soldiers with permanent profiles who have been cleared to take an alternate APFT, enter “PASS” or “FAIL” for the alternate APFT as prescribed by health care personnel and the date of the APFT. The APFT may include an alternate authorized aerobic event (walk, bike, or swim). No comment about the rated Soldier’s profile is required.

— For Soldiers with permanent profiles whose profiles prohibit them from taking the APFT, the entry will be left blank and the rater will explain the reason it has been left blank."

I like SFC Jones' example where each event score is noted. This gives a granularity for tracking progress on each event.

As a former NCOER Clerk in a BN S-1, I would opine that if you must put a score on the NCOER, use the "promotion point" score (the scored events + averaged event(s)). This will keep the rated NCO in the same ballpark as other non-profile Soldiers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2014 11:17 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Mar 2014 23:17:36 -0400

I am in the same boat as you with a P2. For my Soldiers that are NCOs I will put their score only if they are receiving an excellence bullet. Another things that bothers me is Commanders that give incentives for scoring 270 and above with passes. So if i score 80 on my push ups and they give me 60 for each of the other events I only score a 200. I am exceeding the Army Standard but not yet good enough to receive a pass. I know that soon having a disability (injury) will be protected in EO which will make Commanders change their incentive programs for the APFT.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2014 9:33 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Mar 2014 21:33:43 -0400

I could care less but, I have seen 300 PT stud 1SGs that could not lead themselves out of wet paper bag! But watch as we draw down in the next couple years if you have a profile and can't run, you will be considered a non select for E-8/E-9 promotion boards.

Response by SGT Nathan Huff made May 18 at 2014 7:02 PM

SGT Nathan Huff — Sun, 18 May 2014 19:02:48 -0400

having two as in Run and Push ups = the third is the average of the two.

the change must be something new in the past year. Honestly it should just be Go / No Go

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2014 6:46 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 May 2014 06:46:01 -0400

You are being told this because that is what the board AAR's a stating, An absence of a PT score indicated to the board a low score. For many years I thought that was the only way to achieve excellence on the NCOER in that category. I've since learned otherwise however the fact remains that is what the E-7 board wants to see.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 19 at 2014 8:42 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Mon, 19 May 2014 08:42:08 -0400

DA PAM 623-3 states "APFT numerical scores will not be entered". Those instructions are for Part IV, block C of the NCOER. As you can see by the pictures, that includes the section for bullets. It is all one section.

I know, I know, "but CSM so and so said"... I get that a lot, but the regulation states what it states...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2014 10:17 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 May 2014 10:17:12 -0400

I have a P2 profile against running due to injury, however, I am consistently 7-10 minutes faster than my "required" time. I would like to see a graduated scale, similar to the run, for the walk. This would benefit the Soldiers who are required to perform the walk, as well as the boards who could see that they are infact doing more than the minimum required to pass the walk.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2014 10:32 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 May 2014 22:32:50 -0400

This is a great discussion. I have a PERM2 and do the APFT 2.5mi walk. I really wish we had graduated scores for our walk times. It would do a better job reflecting the soldiers physical readiness. It's not that I don't mind having a high calculated score. There should be some point scores that show the soldier just didn't get a PASS from making the minimum.

I get a lot of flack from my peers. They seem to think the walk is literally a leisure thing. I always challenge them to keep up with me. One of them tried and fell out after 1/2 mile. I was recently moved to a section that has two walkers. It'll be nice having some friendly competition among the three of us. The move had nothing to do with segregating the walkers. My old Platoon was, and still is, over strength with NCOs.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 11:18 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:18:57 -0500

Maybe removing the height and weight along with APFT from the NCOER. I suggest removing DA Photo's along with all information that identifies one's race, color, creed, ethnicity, and gender. I would suggest that the Army go to a check the block only NCOER that only the top 20% in each category based on a profile of all personnel in that rank get Excellence in Competence, Combat Readiness, Leadership, Training and Education, and Supply and Accountability. The other 70% would be gauged on Success, Meets Standard, and Does Not Meet Standard. There would still be a senior rater section with blocks stating Top 10%, Top 20%, Meets Standard, and Fails to Meet Standard in replacement of Among the Best, Fully Capable, Marginal... No bullets but blocks that says Promote Now for top 10%, Promote Ahead of Peers for top 20%, Promote with Contemporaries, Do Not Promote. The top 10% would receive a 1/1, 20% a 2/2, all other's a 3/3 in performance and potential while Do Not Promote would warrant 4/4 being the worst marks requiring a mandatory narrative from the Senior Rater qualifying the rendering with factual evidentiary documentation that accompanies the NCOER...APFT failure is the responsibility of the NCO's chain of command in that a promotion board should not be identifying a Soldiers failure if unbiasly considering them for promotion.

Simple: Develop a Profile for each rank, check the block NCOER's based on Profile guidelines, eliminate DA Photo and Demographic information.

Much more detail needs to go into such a suggestion a while I look forward to hearing everyone's feedback

Response by SGT David T. made May 19 at 2015 6:49 AM

SGT David T. — Tue, 19 May 2015 06:49:17 -0400

What they did on mine was use the promotion points method of averaging the two events I did do. Or the emphasis can highlight how the NCO excelled at their subordinates physical fitness, afterall an NCOs success or failure is contingent upon their leadership.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2015 11:11 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2015 11:11:35 -0400

Here is my question that I have pondered for many years and often get the "hmmmmm" response.
For Soldiers and Junior NCO's up to SSG when computing the score for promotion in accordance with regulations, those with profiles have their other two events averaged and they get a score based on that. So if they score 100 in pushups, 100 in Situps and then go for a walk, regardless of whether they walk fast or slow, they get 100 for that.
However that only applies to SPC through SGT who need points for promotions. A SSG or higher doesnt use points so what do they get? Nothing, just a Go, so their APFT Card shows a score of 200 and they are looked at like a dirt bag.
This is how I see it. Everytime an NCO takes a PT Test, the score can go on an NCOER which is used for promotions. Your last 5 they say are looked at although they can view more, but either way it is for promotions so why can't they be averaged also?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 15 at 2015 4:37 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 15 Oct 2015 16:37:30 -0400

We will see more soldier unfriendly practices.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Nov 13 at 2015 1:48 PM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:48:19 -0500

I always maxed my PU & SU so my raters would always put that in there for my PT bullet.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 4:16 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 May 2016 16:16:51 -0400

yes pt score, but profile needs to be legit, what ever you are profiled in usually the run, if you pass the alternative, and pass everything else it should be held against you, if this is being done , go to jag