Politically Correct, do you speak PC?

CSM Charles Hayden — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 15:54:32 -0400

Reference Army Times of 13APR2015. The article: "West Point adds female cadets as Army gender barriers fall"; reads: "West Point doesn't have quotas, but it does have diversity goals for gender, race and other demographic categories, designed to match the ideal breakdown of the future officer corps."

My question to RP is: don't 'diversity goals' equal 'quotas'?

Response by SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA made Apr 12 at 2015 3:56 PM

SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 15:56:47 -0400

I am not a fan of political correctness, though tact is important, as is situational awareness.

Regarding diversity goals and quotas, I agree with your assessment.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Apr 12 at 2015 4:08 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 16:08:28 -0400

Sounds mighty similar.

Response by CPT Bob Moore made Apr 12 at 2015 4:18 PM

CPT Bob Moore — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 16:18:16 -0400

I know it may be a little picky... But there is a difference.

Goals are something you strive for, with little or no consequences if you fail. Quotas have consequences attached for failure or benefits attached for success.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2015 4:22 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 16:22:42 -0400

ABSOLUTELY!
It is ridiculous when the Department SGM comes in and tells a Female that she is the only person eligible for E-7 so she will make it no matter what.

When you utilize race and gender instead of qualifications and ability the Military gets much weaker.

Are we trying to be the best Military or the most Politically Correct?

Leaders should devise an all around testing method which all Soldiers should be able to perform. It should be something both written and physical tasking so as not to focus on one area as some perform better at written while others do better with physical events.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2015 4:32 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 16:32:04 -0400

PC is but another form of censorship.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 12 at 2015 6:42 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 18:42:27 -0400

Although I agree with you on principle CSM Charles Hayden, the issue is a little more complex.

If we are always selecting the same type of people for the same roles, we will never evolve as an organization.

As an example, ignoring race, gender, religion, etc, and looking only at functional lines. What billets and schools 'must' an Officer go through if they want to become 'Head of Service' or an Enlisted to become 'Senior Enlisted Adviser'?

20 years ago, we probably could have said near the exact path, and if either of them didn't start with Infantry, you were out of the running for Army/Marines.

Having the same the same path means experiences are generally the same. Not exactly the same, but for the most part pretty close.

Now, when we look at that through the lens of Racial, Religious, and Gender Diversity, the parallels are similar.

You never want quotas. But you want qualified people with varying experiences, because that's what let's organizations change with the times. Setting goals seems counter-intuitive, but in reality it's not because it means that the military is acting as a true meritocracy if it is meeting them (without 'enforcing' them). When you enforce them, it becomes a quota. When you set them, it's just a metric to be measured against like any other piece of data.

The problem is using or interpreting the metric badly, which can happen.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 12 at 2015 7:17 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 19:17:36 -0400

Diversity is opening up doors. Quota is a number.

Response by SFC Walter Mack made Apr 12 at 2015 7:26 PM

SFC Walter Mack — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 19:26:24 -0400

CSM, they are one and the same. I have no problem with giving any group a chance to compete for opportunity, but EARN IT. That's all. Clearly defined requirements for clearly defined programs. When all clearly qualified applicants are found, then choosing from the pool of qualified can lead to diversity goals when supply exceeds demand. Otherwise, we're filling quotas.

Response by TSgt Tim (lj) Littlejohn made Apr 12 at 2015 8:41 PM

TSgt Tim (lj) Littlejohn — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 20:41:02 -0400

Your answer is yes it does!

Response by TSgt Tim (lj) Littlejohn made Apr 12 at 2015 8:47 PM

TSgt Tim (lj) Littlejohn — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 20:47:41 -0400

I do believe in tact, but I try my very best not to bite my tongue just because it might hurt some assholes feelings. In times like these my tongue would be chewed to pieces! LOL

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2015 8:57 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 20:57:47 -0400

My goal is to be a millionaire, Now will someone make that a quota so it will happen?

Response by 1SG Cameron M. Wesson made Apr 12 at 2015 10:07 PM

1SG Cameron M. Wesson — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 22:07:41 -0400

CSM Charles Hayden CSM.... My 2 cents... No.

Let me expand my position

I answer no because the Army, in my opinion should be a representation of the United States. In order to gain that end state, the Army has to provide those folks that have the potential to be something that we, the Military, need for that future. Those folks come from all backgrounds, ethnicities, and sexes. Unfortunately, history shows that most of the time when leaders\managers are not given criteria/goals... these folks tend to select other folks that are like like themselves. That's not my opinion... that is a sociological fact... and one I see play out all the time... and yes even still today in the Army. Unless leadership is vigilent.

I was told by my 1SG when 5 of us were lateral promoted to CPL the following "Corporals! We're making you NCOs because of the the potential we see... This ain't a reward for what you've done... Screw it up and you'll be a SP4 again" and within 90 days only Royal and I were left.

Just because a person of a varied background gets to West Point... Or any other training or school... doesn't mean they'll capitalize on the chance/opportunity... That means hard work.

Again... Just my 2 cents

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Apr 12 at 2015 10:21 PM

LTC Stephen C. — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 22:21:48 -0400

Pure doublespeak, CSM Charles Hayden.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2015 6:41 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Apr 2015 06:41:45 -0400

I speak my mind and people don't like it than oh well. That is the problem with society today, people want to please everyone else around them and that is impossible.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2015 10:25 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Apr 2015 10:25:09 -0400

I probably should practice some, but absolutely NOT!

Response by SGT Alicia Brenneis made Apr 14 at 2015 12:07 AM

SGT Alicia Brenneis — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 00:07:28 -0400

Politically correct confuses me all the time. What's the point in being PC if I have to ask what the heck you are trying to say?

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 7:58 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 07:58:57 -0400

CSM Hayden, I get your point. And in reality, the answer seems to be yes. A quota per se is a definite number. A goal might be a percentage with a number that might vary according to the pool. But the effect is the same. But let's say the Army needs more Infantrymen in higher ranks of command and among CSMs, simply because there are more new positions. So the Army sets a goal or a quota to move up enough people to fill those ranks. What is the difference if mission driven? Other branches won't like it, to be sure. Yet it happens among branches more often that we know to adjust the force.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 7:59 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 07:59:43 -0400

Will skip the joke about what "PFC" really means....

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 9:28 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 09:28:43 -0400

Diversity Goals are quotas, and it's bullshit. This is the fucking US military. Do we want to be culturally pretty, or do we want to kick ass? Today - I don't even know. I want the best people out there to do the job. I don't care what you are or what you classify yourself to be. If you are the best at the job, then go do the damn job.

How's that for PC?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 10:01 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:01:01 -0400

CSM from how it was said, it appears that West Point does have 'quotas' and to cover themselves they reworded it. Every establishment, if you will, wants to look good in the eye of society and one way they do that is ensuring they have diversity in all aspects.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Apr 14 at 2015 10:29 AM

SrA Edward Vong — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:29:43 -0400

There is a way to speak out the truth while being PC. The issue is, when something is brought down upon someone in a harsh way, that individual is less likely to listen. If it is explained in a way that a person understands, it works better.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 10:06 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 22:06:46 -0400

I find myself simply saying nothing or leaving the convseration instead of agreeing with Political Correctness. It has pervaded our institution to the point where I don't feel I can give my personal opinion in most "official" discussions without repurcussions. In this case I agree with your analysis CSM Charles Hayden

Response by SPC Nathan Freeman made Apr 22 at 2015 12:26 PM

SPC Nathan Freeman — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 12:26:16 -0400

The truth is sometimes difficult, often unwelcome and rarely PC. To say nothing when something is wrong is to be complicit. We must speak the truth in love. Know the facts and don't get swept up in "what ifs". Situational ethics is a deceitful persons way off circumventing truth.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Aug 9 at 2017 7:49 PM

SSgt Boyd Herrst — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 19:49:20 -0400

CSM Charles H:
I think I comes out to be the same in the end. Some wiseacre p.c.er Would point out the word goal and try to justify the word.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Aug 9 at 2017 7:58 PM

SSgt Boyd Herrst — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 19:58:12 -0400

Eligible because she meets all the standard or because... of the social
Engineering. That they need a female to fill the E-7 regardless if SSG Bustshisbuttworkjng is more qualified years service, TIG.. spotless record.. ect..