Prior Military Experience vs. College ROTC before earning a commission as an Officer?

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Nov 2014 22:09:19 -0500

What are you thoughts regarding recent college graduates commissioning as Officers? And whether or not prior military experience is important to have when in pursuit of a commission?

I am enlisted (still early in my career) and began college to earn my degrees in Business & Communications. I also started participating in the Army ROTC program at the college and through my experience thus far I've found that it is a very different dynamic compared to the enlisted life - even when it comes to [basic] military etiquette (mostly because it is almost entirely student run). The senior cadets (MS4's) who hold ranks think VERY highly of themselves nonetheless. *However, the cadre and Officers instructing the program are very professional.

Having grown up in a family of veteran's and even through my short time in the military, I've learned to respect those with years of experience and have gone through real, tough hardships and deployments. I even spoke with several of my Senior NCO's and they have even mentioned how they've ran into a few Officers themselves who don't really "get it" quite yet.

With that, I still highly admire those in pursuit of a Commission. It is not an easy route, and a well earned one at that. I believe it is important to continue to show respect and professionalism towards all those appointed over me, no matter what background they may have.

So the basis of my question is that, is prior military experience important before pursuing a commission as an Officer? I am wondering if it is better to wait and gain more overall field training experience and have clearer leadership perspectives to add to my background (deployments and maybe wait until I become an NCO and learn how to lead soldiers) or do I continue with the college ROTC program?

I know that it is important take advantage of opportunities as they arise and that my ambitions include working hard towards earning a commission in the future. Just need reassurance that I'm on a respectful path.

Thank you in advance for your input.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 6:58 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 06:58:51 -0500

1LT Private RallyPoint Member, I know what you mean about brand new officers fresh out of ROTC, but everyone has to start somewhere, and not all new officers start out with the attitude that they have all the answers. They gain experience - just like enlisted personnel - as they put in their time and move up the ranks.

I think this question boils down to your personal preference. You would be a more experienced officer if you waited and did some enlisted time, that's for sure. However, you could get that experience as an officer as well. You'll be learning either way, just on a different level.

If you plan to make the military a career, you'll be glad you went officer earlier rather than later when the retirement checks start rolling in.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 10:24 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 22:24:49 -0500

I know EXACTLY how you feel as I am prior service going to ROTC. Stay the course...it would be better for you at the end.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Dec 5 at 2014 1:45 AM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 01:45:54 -0500

I have served with Officers right out of the Academy, Out of ROTC and Converted from Senior Enlisted. Some of the Best Officers I served with came both out of the Academy and ROTC and one of the worst was a CWO also one of the best was a CWO. I Don't think it has anything to do with the System and everything to do with the Individual. I wish you luck and I think you will do just fine!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 1:56 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 01:56:15 -0500

You may scoff at this, but I'm being totally serious with what I'm about to say. Read Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein. What you're describing, having commissioned officers plucked from the experienced enlisted side is taken straight from that novel, and it has always been my ideal vision of how the military should function.

If for whatever reason I had the ability to change the basic underlying structure of our military, I'd make it so that ROTC was done away with in favor of the creme of the enlisted crop being selected to attend OCS.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 2:13 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 02:13:22 -0500

I would caution to when making a statement like "a bit skewed that a soldier who's been in for over 10 years has to receive orders from an Officer who's just graduated from college who may have little military background." In the past, Civil War era, some officers were commissioned as a COL right off the bat.

Going back to the ROTC issue. No matter where you go in the world you will find that anyone that is Senior by virtue of time may feel superior to these that have just started. I found this funny when I arrived at Fort Benning for basic training and there were some soldiers that were still in-processing calling us cherries. They only arrived two days prior. Unfortunately, those who want the accolades and power have the drive to attain them. In a ROTC program this is very much the case. Once there they position themselves as the so called "Bad Ass" of ROTC. I would just finish what I was doing there and go on my merry way.

As to the point a college grad has the authority to give orders over a soldier that has been in for ten years or so is nothing new. It is how it should be. The line of thought between enlisted and officer are vastly different. I wouldn't us enlisted time or experience to automatically gauge if an officer is going to be successful or not. I have seen some prior service officers fail and not ascend into their new role as they still favor the enlisted way of doing things. Officers focus on the commanders intent at all times. NCOs focus on completing the mission. They are two different goals that intertwine but are different. The issue with some is that NCOs are not minded like officers and may not understand the implications of what the mission is. That is why we have officers.

I will tell you first hand that being enlisted doesn't make you a great officer. I was a SSG with two tour in Iraq. I commissioned, via OCS, and there were new kids that did a better job than me in several areas. I may understand the potential challenges that a mission may have due to my experience but it doesn't mean that I know how a Mechanized Infantry Platoon should conduct a raid in an urban environment.

"Confirm what you think you know, and to learn that which you do not already know." -Ranger Handbook

Nothing rings truer for an leader then that quote. I live by it. A true leader admits that he doesn't know the answer at times. He should not hesitate to confer with his NCOs to find a solution. The issue is with the young officers is that they think they know everything. They do know a lot but they lack the experience. If they fail to admit that they will end up like those "Bad Ass" ROTC cadets.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 2:48 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 02:48:53 -0500

1LT Private RallyPoint Member I'm all for getting some enlisted experience before commissioning, but I wouldn't say it should be a requirement. Having been on both sides, I found it's just a different way of working.

One of toughest things I had to learn about going from enlisted to officer was to ease back a little and not be as "hands on". There is such a thing as "NCO business" and "Officer business". Trust me you'll have plenty on your plate and if you have a good PSG many of the things you worry about will already take care of itself.

I'm sure you'll do fine. Just study hard, work hard, know your land nav (so they can't make lost LT jokes), and train as is if your buddy's life depends on it. For the ones who aren't prior service and are full of ego......they'll be tested at their first unit.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 3:05 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 03:05:48 -0500

1LT Private RallyPoint Member as several have already stated here, there are some advantages to being enlisted prior to commissioning but it should not be a requirement. The bottom line is, it's the character of the person and their experiences that will help to shape and mold them into the leader they become. Keep pushing forward towards your goal. Those that feel they are superior to others by virtue of their degree and newly attained rank will be given lessons and mentorship by their "crusty" platoon sergeants (like me) and seasoned commanders. Our goal is to mold them into better leaders. None us were really ready, even when fresh out of PLDC, to be leaders. But good mentorship. a healthy appetite to learn and side of humble pie will go a long way.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 7:53 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 07:53:19 -0500

This is a great question, and many before you have often posed that question as they contemplate a career in military. So, I will offer you a perspective on what I believe.

Some of the best officers that I have seen have come from prior service enlisted backgrounds, but in my community, those tend to be prior Special Forces and Ranger Battalion NCOs. I would not attribute their success to having attended those training programs, but rather to have worked in a small group team environment, in which they gained insight into what motivates people. The value they gained is the leadership qualities of interpersonal and social skills. In more common language, how to talk to and deal with people.

Prior enlisted experience will not guarantee you success as an officer. Those are two separate cultures. Being an NCO is a direct leadership experience, which means you will be 100% involved in every aspect of your Soldiers' lives. As an officer, you are in an indirect leadership role. You will spend less time with Soldiers and more time managing and satisfying the requirements placed upon you by your higher headquarters. In common language, as an officer, you will function as an administrator. You will be heavily involved in planning and developing training, but not necessarily in its execution. In other words, you will not be kicking in doors.

Deployments are not an indicator of success, they are a condition of your military service. I have deployed five times to various theaters, and while I learned a tremendous amount about foreign cultures, I can't quantify any real success from these deployments. Deployments will simply give you a global perspective on the human condition.

Ultimately, your decision depends on your personality, and what you want to do as ailitary service member. Don't worry about prior experience. The Army profession is based on experiential learning. You will learn as you go.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 8:00 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 08:00:37 -0500

I do not think anyone should be able to enter the military service as an officer. I think prior enlisted service should be required. Doctors, lawyers, and chaplains hired by the military should not wear rank. They should be DA civilians.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2014 7:58 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 07:58:56 -0500

My question to you is do you believe that you are ready to lead, or will you be ready to listen and lead by the time that you are done with ROTC? If the answer is yes, then in my humble opinion, continue on with ROTC and gain your commission.

You are already asking the right questions in my book that I would want a LT to ask. Get your degree, get your commission, and you will see how many of those "ROTC Badasses" fall by the wayside on their way through the junior officer ranks.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2014 10:37 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 31 Dec 2014 10:37:40 -0500

There is something to be said for the entire "game" of having peer leaders and swapping out leadership turns so that one day you are a leader, the next a follower. It is like this in real life, esp at the O5+ level. Many LTC/COLs may report to another of the same rank. It is important to learn at an early age how to get along with people - help out your leaders and treat your subordinates well. You never know when the roles will reverse.

As for prior service, I wanted to stay enlisted long enough to push on the trail however in hindsight it may have been too long. E5/E6 is plenty far enough to have experience and then make a switch and earn a commission. Nothing worse than Officers who think they know an NCOs job better than them. Prior service Officers tend to be more comfortable at the Company grade level but beyond that sometimes their overconfidence can limit their ability to learn. I have literally shed most of my NCO learnings in order to realize I am in a different place, esp when I was a Bn Cdr. An Officer's role is very different than an NCOs. It's important to keep the humility that being a junior enlisted Soldier brings, and to realize your decisions must be executed by those very same Soldiers, but clear distinctions need to be taught at the Commissioning sources to ensure that OCs realize they will be in a different lane and that a LT is not a SSG/SFC with additional authority. One is a planner and checker, the other executes.

Best of luck in your pursuits. If I can ever be of assistance feel free to personally message me.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2014 10:40 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 31 Dec 2014 10:40:28 -0500

Full Disclosure: I was commissioned from ROTC without any prior enlisted service, however I also completed 2.5 years at USMA before being academically separated, and was an Army Brat to an officer for my entire pre-college life.
Personally, my 17+ years growing up an Army Brat, coupled with 2.5 years at USMA, followed with my final 2 years in ROTC prior to being commissioned provided me multiple views of the Army life including leadership examples, and the relationships between officers, NCOs, and junior enlisted Soldiers. Can we bottle up my experience and make it routine, of course not, but for anyone wanting to be a leader in the US Army, officer, or otherwise, must be mentored properly.
I was mentored by my father and others he served with, consciously and sub-consciously. I was mentored by officers and NCOs while at both USMA and ROTC, including time away from the academics and including field time. And of course I was mentored in my officer basic course, and by my first unit of assignment by officers and NCOs (and often by the junior Soldiers I was honored to be around).

At the end of the day, our commissioned leaders need to go through a program/or programs where they will learn and be mentored by those already serving to they know what right looks like. With this mentorship, coupled with technical and tactical learning and militiary customs, courtesies, rules and regulations, we will get the best product to lead our officer corps.

Response by LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® made Jan 3 at 2015 6:26 PM

LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® — Sat, 03 Jan 2015 18:26:34 -0500

Interestingly this battle has raged for centuries. In the past, a commission was held for only certain social classes (think of England in the 18th century). You could sell your commission to people who had the money.

Clausewitz in his book "On War" said that young officers are good because they tend to take more risks that older more experienced soldiers don't. In war, sometimes the side that takes calculated risks even though outnumbered win.

I think that the benefit of having an experienced PSG coupled with a young LT can make for a good combination as long as the LT is open-minded and PSG humble enough to listen to the LT.

We have the greatest military in the world and West Pointers, ROTC, OCS, Direct Commissions have been successful thus far coupled with the strength of the NCO corps. The only issue I see with forcing an officer to have prior experience can be age and experience.

A General should have experience from PL all the up to the Corp level and that can take 30 years. If you tack on another 10 prior to PL time let's just say, then people will be in positions much longer, forcing less people to get promoted etc.

So there is a lot to think about when it comes to this issue.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2015 7:18 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 03 Jan 2015 19:18:47 -0500

I feel for you and I can only hope your ROTC program has the benefit of some curmudgeon veterans being on campus (like I was for my university, lol). I lost track of how many times I pulled a Cadet aside to correct their uniform (especially to remind them about their cover) or impart the wisdom of how their actions might reflect upon their program and the service as a whole.

Most of the better officers I worked with/for were Mustangs (prior enlisted), but Academy grads and ROTC can still be good leaders. As long as we have veterans on campus looking out for them, good instructors in their program, and good NCOs and superior officers to mentor them once they actually get to their duty station, ROTC commissioned officers should turn out to be pretty decent leaders.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 31 at 2015 6:43 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:43:51 -0400

Not having enlisted experience is not a show stopper for commissioning. What is paramount is you making a transition from an academic perspective to the Real Army. How do go from reading about COL Chamberlain from the Civil War to how do you run your platoon. I will advise that you remember by heart the TLPs and OPORD formats. They will make you relevant when get projects or have to become a tactical leader. You should ask us about leadership philosophies to look at what leaders find important in the Real Army.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2015 2:17 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Sep 2015 14:17:14 -0400

1LT Private RallyPoint Member, to me, having been enlisted in two VERY different services (Army and then Navy) after doing high school JROTC (Army and then Air Force) and then being at a state university that had both Army and Air Force ROTC, I saw many similar qualities (both good and bad, especially the seniority issue that CPT Private RallyPoint Member mentioned) from people in all of the situations.

Doing JROTC in HS, I was all sorts of gung-ho about joining the military (and being poor from a trailer park, I didn't think college was an option). I got a wake-up call at Army bootcamp. The military is not like JROTC (or ROTC for that fact).

I didn't realize it at the time, but I was just playing soldier/airman in high school and that's pretty much what I saw from the cadets at my university. They don't get it unless they've done the time on watch. Even the guys who grew up in a military family had their eyes opened.

For me, in a perfect world, part of getting an ROTC commission would include some type of enlisted service. Maybe something like signing a 6 year contract to serve 2 years as enlisted Active and then the remaining 4 years to finish your degree. I'm not sure how the logistics would best work, but I'm sure that if they knew what they were getting into, really knew from experience, then the cadets in these programs would probably become better leaders.

Response by CPT Eireanne Russ made Nov 28 at 2018 6:30 PM

CPT Eireanne Russ — Wed, 28 Nov 2018 18:30:48 -0500

This is a perennial question that often adds USMA into the mix,or did 30+ years ago. There are merits to each commissioning route, but in end, by the time an officer reaches First Lieutenant the differences have generally smoothed out and there is little qualitative difference in capability. Every officer is wise to listen to his NCOs, at every level, because there is a natural and necessary separation that comes with he job.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2019 9:19 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Feb 2019 09:19:55 -0500

I did a bit of ROTC in College, im doing OCS now. What bothers me is that cadets can land any job in the military eve without having a degree that relates to the job. Example i cant for the life of me find Cyber unit to get an acceptance letter but there is video posted by the army about a LT that got cyber thru ROTC, her major was literature. OCS has to go thru bootcamp, OCS then commission the BOLC. Cadets skip all of that. They go to a 4 week summer training with paintball guns. Still cant hate them for taking the opportunity that is available to all of us.

Response by MAJ Lee Goehl made Aug 30 at 2019 9:23 AM

MAJ Lee Goehl — Fri, 30 Aug 2019 09:23:31 -0400

There is a hugh difference between ROTC and real life experience. And a hugh respect diffrence from your NCOs. I could always tell the diffrence in the approach to problems.And dont get me started on USMA grads.

Response by Col Tri Trinh made Dec 31 at 2020 12:01 PM

Col Tri Trinh — Thu, 31 Dec 2020 12:01:50 -0500

Good on you for advancing yourself with going to school and joining ROTC. You will be a fine officer having enlisted experience and ROTC experience. I didn't know anything about officer and enlisted when I joined ROTC in college. You have a bigger perspective than the cadets - just know that.
It is easy for cadets to get high on themselves - I did and learned that early on. I didn't even get picked up to be in the cadet officer corps the first year I applied. I came back the next year and was the #1 cadet at my field training camp.
I didn't think I was going to make Colonel but my boss went to a 3-star general and advocated for me. I eventually got a command job and retired after 29 years of service. Believe in yourself and your potential.
I wouldn't judge people on the basis if they are officer or enlisted. There will always be bad and good officers and enlisted personnel wherever you go. Find the good people and surround yourself with them and let them know what you aspire to be.

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Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Oct 14 at 2021 12:38 AM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Thu, 14 Oct 2021 00:38:24 -0400

This is still popping up, how did things work out for you? I see your profile has you as a 1LT.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Oct 14 at 2021 12:54 AM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Thu, 14 Oct 2021 00:54:41 -0400

There is nothing wrong with a commission through Army ROTC and experience can only be gained by actual service. There is no shortcut to gain experience, it learning by doing but what You learn in ROTC should help the total picture. In both cases, listen, learn and put forth You best effort and You will succeed. There is nothing wrong with getting the Officer training first and take the opportunity while its available and don't wait. You don't have to be an NCO first to lead but it does add to the experience but ROTC and other Officer training programs are designed to teach those very same things. No matter where You are in any career You should never stop learning and build on both your training and experience. I did have an opportunity to attend Officer training and passed on it and wish I hadn't despite My Commander and OIC trying to talk Me into it. I did have Army ROTC at a Military prep school before I went into the Active Duty Military service and it did help a lot The best of luck to You and don't pass up an opportunity when its available. Your resume will grow anyway once You are Commissioned and You will gain the experience by doing.

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