PTSD and Military veterans that join the police force. Should pre-employment screening for PTSD be a requirement?

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 03:01:28 -0400

California Policeman beats black woman nearly to death. Statistics show that the majority of police that commit violent crimes against American citizens are prior military. Why? Is it Post Traumatic Stress Disorder or simply hate. The U.S. Federal government is investigating. The American government and press attributed recent violence in Furguson and Baltimore to police brutality. Six police officers were subsequently arrested in Baltimore. PTSD(Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) or simply hate??? Key result, police were arrested.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ke6z9a5QOQ

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Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jun 8 at 2015 3:07 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 03:07:49 -0400

When I leave the military, I don't plan to do LE or even anything associated with security. The problem with screening veterans is one, it might be discrimination, and two, it will cost someone some money and who will pay for that, the department the vet is trying to get hired onto? Personally, if a potential employer asked if I have been diagnosed with PTSD I will make sure to file a complaint with EO.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 3:23 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 03:23:22 -0400

California Policeman beats black woman nearly to death. Statistics show that the majority of police that commit violent crimes against American citizens are prior military. Why? Is it Post Traumatic Stress Disorder or simply hate. The U.S. Federal government is investigating. The American government and press attributed recent violence in Furgason and Baltimore to police brutality. Six police officers were subsequently arrested in Baltimore. PTSD(Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) or simply hate??? Key result, police were arrested.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ke6z9a5QOQ

California Police Officer Beats Black Homeless Woman On Freeway FULL VIDEO

California Police Officer Beats Black Homeless Woman On Freeway , purely outrageous and disgusting . Too much force. Brutality to say the least. UPDATE**** L...

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 8 at 2015 3:45 AM

PO1 John Miller — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 03:45:31 -0400

I'm not sure where this is coming from. Are the cops involved in either story veterans? Do they have PTSD?

Response by PO3 David Fries made Jun 8 at 2015 5:00 AM

PO3 David Fries — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 05:00:11 -0400

I have the same question as PO1 John Miller , what is the connection? What is the relevance?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 5:10 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 05:10:55 -0400

It would not be legal to selectively screen Vets for PTSD. Lawsuits would abound, and rightfully so. What does the question have to do with the linked video?

Response by SSG Adam Wyatt made Jun 8 at 2015 5:38 AM

SSG Adam Wyatt — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 05:38:20 -0400

Is this a serious question with videos that relate to what exactly? Violence comes in all colors sir. Good day.

Response by MAJ Ron Peery made Jun 8 at 2015 8:59 AM

MAJ Ron Peery — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 08:59:55 -0400

Most agencies require applicants to take a psych evaluation as part of the hiring process.

Anyone can get PTSD, from any cause....car wreck, dog bite, falling off the roof of your house, being a cop in certain jurisdictions. It's not exclusive to combat veterans.

Since I don't know what has gone on in the lives of the LEO's involved, I can't make a judgment. That's what internal affairs investigations are for.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jun 8 at 2015 11:34 AM

MSG Brad Sand — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 11:34:53 -0400

I am at a loss why there are any mention of PTSD, or veterans from this SHORT clip of video. There is so much unknown that we need to be VERY careful what we think we are talking about.

Response by SSG(P) D. Wright Downs made Jun 8 at 2015 2:22 PM

SSG(P) D. Wright Downs — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 14:22:35 -0400

Sir, today's veterans who join the police force are not different than those who joined following VN or the Cold War. A bully is a bully. A person who has been bullied will often bully others. Those who lead, will lead. Those who were pushed will bully.

PTSD has become a part of the military society. The question is to what extent. Fortunately, today's veteran is treated immediately and has a better possibility of successful treatment than those who had to wait a couple of decades of festering prior to diagnosis and then perhaps treatment.

The question is, is the VA going to give a true screening evaluation of PTSD---look at the mess and the bad evaluations it has given in the recent past. Who does one trust to give an evaluation? Some police Depts are really at a loss to get qualified people. MPs and other military veterans are duly qualified. Military veterans are less racially triggered..we sleep, eat, and play with people of all races.

Response by PO3 David Fries made Jun 8 at 2015 3:44 PM

PO3 David Fries — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 15:44:32 -0400

All you keep doing is posting the same video and repeating the same rhetoric over and over. Please show the statistics that you keep going on about. Until then, it sounds like you are just trying to push some kind of agenda.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Jun 8 at 2015 3:54 PM

SGT Richard H. — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 15:54:43 -0400

The video seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the question. I do, however, wish to address one portion of your question. You mentioned a black woman and asked if it's just simply hate. If it were a white woman would it still be hate? I'm just saying that it sounds like a bit of a loaded question.

Response by SSG Todd Lysfjord made Jun 8 at 2015 4:46 PM

SSG Todd Lysfjord — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 16:46:58 -0400

I did 10 years and 6 deployments before getting out. I was hired as a cop in Phoenix after being out for only two months. I met alot of people in my agency who were getting help for PTS from various (recent) prior military service.

None of us had any issues with the public or our peers attributable to our diagnosed combat related PTS. We were all seeking treatment from what was the worst VA on the planet at the time!

I have to think some of these recent issues with LE and the minority public probably stemmed from something else. It streamlines the story for the press and lessens the liability of the LE agency related to the incident if they scream "PTSD" from the rooftops.

In my eight years as a cop I had no issue and neither did any of my peers...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 5:04 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 17:04:36 -0400

I think that there is a common misconception that PTSD is directly linked to someone who is liable to "flip out". We all must eventually find ways of dealing with it but most importantly I don't like for people to walk on eggshells when they find out about my PTSD.

Response by SSG John Erny made Jun 8 at 2015 5:11 PM

SSG John Erny — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 17:11:12 -0400

All Officers of the law should go through a Psyc eval to see if they are fit for the Job before being hired. Out of all of the officers serving in this country it is a hand full that give the rest a bad name. The press is partly to blame also, they trough fuel on a fire and make a bad situation worse.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 5:33 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 17:33:59 -0400

In the Military Intelligence community at the national level, extensive polygraph examinations, extensive special background investigations, and extensive psychological testing is routine. Surely a psychological pre-employment screening of police recruits should not be a problem. For combat veterans desiring employment on a police force, a screen for PTSD would be beneficial to the police force as well as to the American public. I am sympathetic to the plight of veterans diagnosed with PTSD. My older brother is diagnosed with PTSD. I am sympathetic to our nations police force. I am a 15 year State of Florida Private Investigator and Security Specialist. In addition, A Hampton City and Newport News Virgina Special Police Officer, Private Investigator, and Security specialist. In addition, a Military Intelligence Officer.

Response by CPT Christopher Webb made Jun 8 at 2015 11:17 PM

CPT Christopher Webb — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 23:17:16 -0400

When I left the Army I went to work for my Uncle, who was a real jerk. I had another Cousin, much older than me, who worked for him, he had been a policeman for 20 years. One day my Uncle was being truly horrible to me as I stood in front of his desk ... he finally stormed out of the room.

I turned to my Cousin and asked, "When you were a policeman did they teach you ways to subdue people, like choke holds and the like?" He said, "Yes, they sure did." I looked at him and after a long pause I said, "The Army only taught me how to kill people, and I am dangerously close to jumping across my Uncles desk and doing exactly what I was trained to do." My Cousin said, "Well, I hope you don't do that."

I have PTSD and I damned sure know that I have no business being a policeman. I'm 54 now and have been out of the Army for 22 years ... I am still poised, metaphorically, on the opposite side of the desk of bad guys of all types ... and have not forgotten a single thing I was taught regarding killing them. Frankly, it scares me a little bit ... and it scares me that there are police officers who are likely even more messed up than I am.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2015 7:22 AM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2015 07:22:23 -0400

Regardless of whether such cops tend to be veterans, I do not think either PTSD or hatred are the reasons, nor do I think it can necessarily be simplified to that degree. It is likely a conglomeration of factors, a more prominent one being that police are afforded a great deal of authority, and great lenience when that authority is abused.

I take the opinion that power tends to corrupt; and when power is given to an individual who has inclinations to maximize/abuse/etc that power over time - for whatever reasons incline them to do so - and/or that individual had past training/experiences for resorting to force more quickly, and/or that individual takes and "us vs them" mentality, and/or other relatable factors are present in that individual: such power will likely affect them in a negative manner, leading to abuse.

From other responses on here, I've seen a lot of concern about the need for a robust psychological screening process at police departments. But from the experience of friends I have that are in LE, and my own research into the application process for various departments (as I have strongly considered a career in LE after I get out of the military, especially given my educational background); I can say that psychological screening, as well as interviewing friends/family/acquaintances of the applicant, is already commonplace. When I was interviewed for my friend's application to San Jose PD, it was very similar to the interviews I've been through for TS security clearances for both myself and others. Additionally, my friend had to go through multiple written and in-person psychological/behavioral evaluations. Of course, a lot of the questions on written psychological tests are seemingly stupid things such as "have you ever, or do you think you would have enjoyed inflicting pain on an animal?", which to pretty much everyone has an obvious answer. But that partially just goes to show that no matter how thoroughly you attempt to screen people, or read their minds, or otherwise predict their behavior, you can't know how they're going to behave when given great authority.

And so instead of calls for even more screening (of which there is arguably, already as much as is effective), I would advocate calling for police to be more accountable to those tax-payers they serve. With the rise of police and other public sector unions, and public sector employees granting themselves great leeway, who is really serving who? I do not think public sector jobs should have nearly as much job security as they do, especially jobs in LE. If it was as easy to fire a bad cop as it is for a typical business to fire a bad employee, I would not be surprised by statistically significant reductions in police instances of excessive force, and other markers of bad behavior. If we're going to charge an individual with upholding the rule of law, then we need to be hold them to higher standards, which includes greater accountability. Seems I've gone on quite the rant here.....

Response by MAJ Ron Peery made Jun 9 at 2015 8:17 AM

MAJ Ron Peery — Tue, 09 Jun 2015 08:17:43 -0400

Now the OTHER side of the story is coming out, with vids and testimony from the people who live in the neighborhood, and the "bad cop" storyline is taking a pounding. A wise old colonel once told me "the first SITREP is always wrong. Wait until you have more facts." Guess that applies here.

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2015 11:17 AM

CDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2015 11:17:16 -0400

One can make statistics show what one wants...

Statistics show that the majority of police that commit violent crimes against American citizens are prior military? Hmm, maybe that's because the majority of POLICE OFFICERS are former military.

Response by SSgt Charles Edwards made Jun 10 at 2015 10:28 AM

SSgt Charles Edwards — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 10:28:00 -0400

Why does the police force have to be singled out when it comes to pre-employment screening? I guess it's because they're the ones held responsible for the protection of our society and are held to a higher level of professionalism and restraint.

I know we hear about all the negative stuff when it comes to cops making a questionable decision that results in somebody getting hurt or killed, but these guys are trained to respond on the fly. Naturally, the level of stress is unique.

However, it has been my experience that any job can set anyone off. Here's the kicker, that individual doesn't have to be prior military or have PTSD. Go to YouTube and look up videos of people in everyday jobs having meltdowns. There is one that has a woman working at Burger King who snaps on someone because they're not satisfied with their order. In my personal opinion, those employers don't worry about screening or background checks as it pertains to their character or disposition. There are a lot of people in the food industry who have no business being there, but they are because background checks aren't as thorough.

Take what you will from this that it's apples and oranges. But, my point is this: there are bad fits in every sector of the workforce.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2015 11:43 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 11:43:08 -0400

The hate is spilled over from years of aggression from the ones that are being protected by the Police Force. I had no issues, nor did I (or do I) hate groups of people. As a Police Officer, I was spit on and hit. I did not kill a single person, nor did I shoot anyone.

I was hated because of the uniform I wore. Not a single person that hated me knew who I was or even my first name. None of them gave any of us a chance to show them who we were. They despised and hated us.

The problem I saw was caused from ignorance and misconceptions of their own perceptions. If they would have educated themselves, and maybe follow the law there would be less incidents and agitation

Response by SFC Jeff L. made Jun 10 at 2015 4:27 PM

SFC Jeff L. — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 16:27:39 -0400

It's curious that you would only provide for two alternatives - it must be either a medical/psychological condition or it's hate. Hate comes in all colors, shapes, sizes, and flavors. So do racism and prejudice. It comes from people from both sides of the tracks, and in every pursuit of human endeavor. I think it's probably more of a "problem" because it's getting more attention. Everyone has a camera on their phone, and every news outlet wants to generate ratings and get the story out first. They do so without facts, without any real reporting, and, often, with an agenda they with to push. These high profile cases have tended to be blown way out of proportion, and the victims less of a victim when the evidence comes to light.

There are always going to be bad actors on both sides of the badge, but to answer the question: No. Use a personality assessment to determine risk factors and screen out people based on their own responses.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2015 4:31 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 16:31:45 -0400

of course it should be....but for everyone not just vets.....everyone is subject to being a victim of PTSD

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2015 4:54 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 16:54:16 -0400

Maj. What do you think it is? I doubt it can be placed into either Physcholical Issues or Hate. It could be one or the other, both, or something else. I have seen statistics that state other causes to the issues on the streets.

For instance, lack of support from the community. Lack of education in the homes of the offenders. LAck of respect for authority (from both sides).
As you can see, there is a lot of "lack" in what I have seen in the past. I have gone through a lot of schools and courses, to include some taught by the FBI and the NCIS.

Whenever I find a teenager or youth heading into that wrong direction I tell them to arm themselves with knowledge and fight your battles where you can win. Battles fought on the street are a total loss (for both sides). Fighting in court brings the gabage to light. I have seen that process work better than recording yourself being a complete and utter tool bag (not you sir).

Just recently, I watched video of the police breaking up a pool party. I saw no injustice in the complete video, but I also saw the edited versions of this video and can see how people can formulate uneducated opinions on what happened.

Wrong is wrong. If you do wrong you will be wronged.

Response by CPT Bruce Rodgers made Jun 11 at 2015 5:18 AM

CPT Bruce Rodgers — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 05:18:35 -0400

Sounds like bullshit to me, but who am I only a PhD in Psychology

Response by SFC Jeff L. made Jun 11 at 2015 9:40 AM

SFC Jeff L. — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 09:40:00 -0400

Here's a bit of a different take on this. What if law enforcement agencies are being conditioned to acting more aggressively? What if it really doesn't have to do with race, veteran status, or hatred, but with officers being conditioned to respond more aggressively?

Here's what I mean. There are a multitude of incidents being reported where LE agencies have responded with overwhelming force. They are being given military gear and training. They are involved in operations working in tandem with active military units (even SOG). The president himself has said he wants a civilian force "just as strong, just as well funded" as the military. LE agencies are routinely trampling citizens privacy with devices like Stingray, drones, and other surveillance tech.

What if, because of those contributing factors, officers were being conditioned to view the public at large as lesser beings, a nuisance, subjects? If you couple that with a prevailing sentiment that officers are no good, targeting people, not to be trusted then you have a self-perpetuating rift between those who serve and those whom they serve. Could that be the reason for the rise in aggressive or militarized behavior in LE?

Response by Sgt Ramon Nacanaynay made Jun 14 at 2015 10:25 AM

Sgt Ramon Nacanaynay — Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:25:43 -0400

Perhaps coercion, bullying, oppression, threats and violence is not a solution, but a stalling tactic until a nonviolent solution is found. We should invest more in education, jobs, opportunities, communities that listen and respond, whatever provides hope.