Public Schools vs Independent Thought

Col Joseph Lenertz — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 08:44:44 -0400

Does our public school system encourage or discourage independent thought? This story is one example. I've had situations with my own kids when they attempted to do a problem a different way, or questioned the teacher's "approved solution" or position on a subject. On the other hand, I've judged science fairs where innovation and independent thought were rewarded. How does your kid's public school do on this issue?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/21/nj-schools-bans-harvard-bound-valedictorian-from-graduation/?intcmp=trending

NJ school bans Harvard-bound valedictorian from graduation

A suburban New Jersey high school is holding its graduation Tuesday but the big day’s pomp and circumstance won’t include a speech by the Harvard-bound valedictorian.

Response by SrA Johnathan Kropke made Jun 22 at 2015 8:53 AM

SrA Johnathan Kropke — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 08:53:49 -0400

I say, now a days, public schools are killing independent thought. Teachers in most states have to teach to standardized testing so the students can make the grade on the test just to get funding for their school.

Because of just that simple fact, students can't think outside the box because the teacher has a set answer and with that set answer they have to get the set result from all students. To top that off, extracurricular activities are not just encouraged anymore, they are almost a necessity just to make it to college. No one can really make it to college with just the brain anymore, but have to show some "skill" at an extracurricular just to be accepted.

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made Jun 22 at 2015 9:18 AM

SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 09:18:35 -0400

I see nothing it that article that references "Independent Thought"

This story is about a student threatening a Guidance Counselor and disrupting a classroom.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2015 9:37 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 09:37:21 -0400

It often comes down to a specific teacher with specific students.

Individual Teachers have the ability to promote creativity and classic theories. Good teachers know their students and adapt lesson plans to teach what they desire to a certain body of students.

It's the teachers that breed good students (& their outside institution support systems, like family).

The good teachers will breed independent thought while reinforcing the traditional education goals.

...but teachers have obstacle in the school system often hand cuffing them...

These teachers get locked into unions that drain funds, don't encourage good class room skills, and focus on money- not education. As a result, some bad teachers get their tenure after a few years and aren't pushed to strive for excellence. The powerful unions see teacher evaluations as a threat against paying dividends to all. In a performance-driven society, the unions don't allow schools to evaluate teachers performance. This enables lazy teaching.

These teachers also get locked into federal & state funding politics that determines a school's budget- to do so, those teachers have to teach to the test. Without the standardized test results, the outside money won't come. They'll be pushed out of the classroom if their students don't perform on a standardized test. To appease, they often teach the test- prohibiting independent thought and promoting strict recitation of fact.

But there are many good teachers out there - who have tenure, educate their pupils to pass the test, and promote the cognitive skills and independent thinking to develop students into adults.

I have much respect for those that do, especially in a system that isn't concerned so much about that!

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jun 22 at 2015 10:36 AM

CPT Jack Durish — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 10:36:54 -0400

I well remember the old TV Show, This is Your Life, wherein celebrities were "surprised" to find themselves on stage, surrounded by families and friends as their lives were recounted by the host. Invariably, the cast from the past would include a "favorite teacher". In time I came to resent this. I never had a "favorite teacher". Not one in 12 years of public schooling. Not one in college or law school. I was a pariah because I had a habit of thinking outside the box, asking questions they weren't prepared to answer. I was treated as disruptive.

One teacher in my senior year of high school took me into the hall during class and asked if I actually thought I would graduate. I smiled and responded, yes. How? "Well," I answered, "if you don't pass me I'll just be back next year." She passed me.

That was a long time ago, long before teachers colleges began grinding out ideologues who replaced education with indoctrination in American classrooms. (Don't bother arguing, it's a well-documented fact.)

I can't even imagine how I would be treated if I were in school today. I suspect I would none have hung around to graduate. Indeed, I wish I had the courage, even in those days, like Louis L'Amour, to quit because school was getting in the way of my education...

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2015 12:56 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 12:56:17 -0400

I have witnessed a change in our public schools over the past 30 years. 50 years ago we had conservative teachers, many who fought in WWII and Korea, educated by the GI Bill.

40 years ago, we ended the draft and begin a shift to the left in our politics and society.

30 years ago, the conservatives retired from teaching and were replaced by Vietnam era liberals, many who either avoided the draft or were disheartened by the war.

20 years ago was the rise of liberalism and evolution into socialism in our colleges and public school system as we began to fall in global standing for innovation, education and global competitiveness. Jobs moved overseas as our ability to compete was degraded. The Internet made location less relevant and our progressive tax system forced companies to cut costs.

10 years ago, the public school system began a war against conservative ideas (the rights of free speech, religion, bear arms, be held individually responsible, etc.) to pursue 'social equality' and 'social justice' goals.

Now, we have a public school system that has primed the pump for our country to accept a socialist candidate for POTUS, 47% of our population is dependent on the government and out of wedlock birthrates/absent fathers have become the norm.

In 10 years, I believe our people will no longer be able to compete on the global stage, as a result, income will drop at a time we will need more and more taxes to pay for entitlements and rebuild our crumbling infrastructure.

In 20 years, we will be so dependent on our government, that socialism will be our accepted form of government and we have more police/government agents at every level of government than we have in our military. I hope I'm wrong but we have been on this course for too many years.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 22 at 2015 1:53 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 13:53:36 -0400

The changes to math are confusing our kids, even the smarter ones. As an example 40 + 42 could become 40+10+10+10+10+2. They need to use the KISS principle.

Response by PO3 Sherry Thornburg made Jun 23 at 2015 2:07 AM

PO3 Sherry Thornburg — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 02:07:58 -0400

It can go both ways. Schools can be Hitler-like demanding conformity of thought and deed and they can be more tolerant picking their battles over things that really matter. My experience getting two boys through school was fairly positive. There were zero tolerance issues I didn't think were fair, but those rules came from above the principle's head. I heard of a few instances, but was never on the fighting end of an issue with our schools. The few times I did go to bat for my kids, I found out the kid was at fault, not the teacher.

Now, my husband handled one phone call from school where a teacher went ballistic over my son saying the Bismark was a bad-ass boat in history class. He agreed with his assessment and told the school they needed to lighten up. No disciplinary action taken.

Response by SGT Ronald Minick made Jun 23 at 2015 5:05 AM

SGT Ronald Minick — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 05:05:21 -0400

I had a discussion with a member of AWG. He told me a lot of the reason Soldiers hesitate or " freeze" in the heat of decision making is because the Army tends to feel it's necessary to solve our problems; just give the solution. Example: Land Nav- You get a compass, protractor and map. All you have to do is draw a straight line from A to B and star at the compass. In combat, should your eyes be focused on a compass in enemy territory or should you be at the low ready focusing on the TERRAIN in front of you? Independent thinking allows for the development of CRITICAL THINKING. In conclusion, I feel schools discourage independent thinking because Soldiers seem to struggle with critical thinking....

Response by SGT Jason Weisbrich made Jul 8 at 2015 3:53 AM

SGT Jason Weisbrich — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 03:53:17 -0400

Oddly enough, I read a few articles on this subject. Teaching kids that there is only one solution to a problem. And not allowing them to create their own shortcuts most definitely discourages free thinking. This has led to alternative learning environments like charter schools etc...

Response by Cpl Chris Rice made Jul 9 at 2015 4:33 AM

Cpl Chris Rice — Thu, 09 Jul 2015 04:33:40 -0400

So I have very little experience on the matter since I was homeschooled, but this site does not seem to like the public school system. Literally people complain that they allow to much freedom when a kid does not stand for the pledge, or they teach multiple solutions to the same problem (Common Core Math Complaints, or new math). They are to rigid when they treat the Harvard bound kid like anybody else. There is usually some Liberal v. Conservative crap, the best part being that they love the era when policies in the US were most liberal (High Taxes, No Welfare Time Limit, Lower Retirement age, Union Participation was higher…etc).

Maybe teachers, administrators, and rest are just doing their best. Common Core was also adopted by individual states as are their curriculums, and text books. Seriously watch The Revisionaries about the Texas School Board, and how they pick and choose history, science, and other subjects.

Response by 1LT Peter Duston made Feb 28 at 2021 9:47 AM

1LT Peter Duston — Sun, 28 Feb 2021 09:47:53 -0500

These are gross generalizations.