"Quit calling us POGs"

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 14:34:59 -0500

I find this to be humorous and also a legitimate issue. Recently I was at large training compound with multiple units there, basically a "mock up" of a FOB. So while in the latrine some soldiers, that must have been in one of the support units there were talking. They were complaining about the soldiers from the infantry unit calling them "POGs." And without missing a beat someone yells from a stall in the same building "Shut up POG." I couldn't help but to laugh.

I usually don't care what you do in the Army as long as you are doing your job and are maintaining your professionalism. These units that we were running into were far below the expectations of maintaining professionislism. There were so many uniform violations our CSM had to wear blinders where ever he walked so he could make it there without correcting every soldier on the way. If he did he would never make where ever he was going. I was just wearing ACUs. It was a bit chilly but I saw a soldier with the ECWCS gen III level 7 jacket, aka the marshmallow jacket. With some sort of toboggan cap that was not anything to do with the army. There was no uniformity and it seemed like no one in their unit cared.

I am not calling anyone a POG in this post. I have our support personnel in our unit that we view as peers. They were harder than anyone in that other unit. They act like soldiers just like we do.

What is your take on this? Do you think they are asking for it by they way they are? Should anyone be called a POG? Should they be expected to maintain the same standard as everyone else in the Army? And what is their CSM doing when this is happening?

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2014 2:40 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 14:40:03 -0500

Well, yeah, there's some good reason infantry call "non-infantry" POG's - but I'm not certain infantry understands just how much "POG's" do in support of the infantry. But I'm certain I'm about to hear that Infantry doesn't need POG's.....

Response by Sgt Jennifer Mohler made Nov 16 at 2014 2:50 PM

Sgt Jennifer Mohler — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 14:50:32 -0500

I think there is a bg difference between being called "pog" and categorically insulted. I don't mind much the term, but it may well find a nice resting place next to terms like "wm" which lost their original endearment and turned sinister.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2014 3:10 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 15:10:58 -0500

What bothers me the most on this post is the that the CSM....the biggest horse in the barn walking around with 'blinders' on. This is precisley why standards flew the coop. Set the standard, be the standard and ENFORCE the standard. By the way.....being called a POG is the same as being called a jarhead, squid, grunt, gun bunny, leg, FNG...etc....

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Nov 16 at 2014 3:52 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 15:52:39 -0500

I was on both sides of the fence. I have nothing but love for the infantry (especially when I was infantry...lol), but one thing that is for sure is that the infantry is only a part of the whole. Grunt over POG, airborne over leg, Apache over Kiowa, the list is endless. One team, one fight. An orchestra played without any one instrument will not sound the same. If you have to take pride in yourself at the expense of tearing others down which value does that fall under? The longer you stay in and the more exposure you have to the "big picture", the less willing they are to throw any derogatory term around. You don't train for a prize fight and decide which of your senses you don't need as you enter the ring.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Nov 16 at 2014 4:35 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 16:35:18 -0500

Even grunts argue over who is less of a POG: a rifleman driving the truck? The gunner? The dismounts?

We can all agree someone is more POG than us. If we run out of specialties we can always bash the other services. If we run out of services we can bash the civilians.

Let the grunts revel in their misery. They need it.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2014 5:07 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:07:42 -0500

I don't know about the Marine Corps, but, as for the Army--no, no Soldier should called POG--just like Infantrymen shouldn't be called knuckle-draggers or any other term insulting their intelligence. Moreover, this type of name calling can be construed as bullying or hazing which is now added to the new AR 600-20 as a standard of misconduct. I got it--most of it is harmless joking, until it's not and someone either files a complaint or worse--someone is driven to hurting themselves because of constant ridicule. So, the easy answer is to just stop it all and everyone wins...

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Nov 16 at 2014 5:40 PM

PO2 Corey Ferretti — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:40:27 -0500

I dont have a problem with being called a POG. I'am a POG and proud of it; i tryed to join the infantry and did not qualify due to being color blind. Heck even with in the grunt community they argue about what grunt MOS is more of a POG then others. I think the only time i get upset over it is when a Grunt will minimize something i did and say you don't know what your talking about your just a POG.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Nov 16 at 2014 9:22 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 21:22:30 -0500

POGs, REMFs, FOBITs, in the rear, with the gear, echelons above reality - been there, done it and proud of it! Just don't call me late for chow!

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Nov 16 at 2014 9:40 PM

CMSgt James Nolan — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 21:40:11 -0500

Here is what I do know: It takes a village. I mean, if you don't have any "POGs" your unit will fail. And you are correct in your observation that many do not work as hard as the "POGs". Nothing will help a unit more than having someone who is administratively squared away that wants the unit to succeed. Treat them like crap and they will find somewhere else to go.

And, in the end, we are all Soldiers, or Sailors or Marines or Airmen, or Coast Guard or as we are all, to someone "troops".

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2014 9:49 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 21:49:18 -0500

Here's the problem: there isn't a commander at any level other than a corps or post commander that is going to enforce 600-20 on an infantryman for calling someone a POG, in any capacity or context.

Example: I can write them up all day. I can walk that counseling up to their team leader, squad leader, platoon sergeant, first sergeant, platoon leader or commander, and they're just going to laugh me out of the room, calling me a POG too.

Today's infantry doesn't care that the branches rely on each other. They've convinced themselves they're so different from the rest of the army that the rules don't apply to them.

Most of the time they bring the most dishonor to the army out of anyone else.

Exclaimer: I of course am generalizing. If you know you're not one of these stereotypical infantrymen please don't take offense, but police up others.

Response by SPC David S. made Nov 16 at 2014 10:58 PM

SPC David S. — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 22:58:44 -0500

I feel any time you differentiate troops such as infantry and cav with either authorized or unauthorized uniform garb your going to get some sort of stratification. This can come about in a number of ways, name calling one of them. If you want to get rid of the "POGs" I feel you're going to need to get rid of the infantry cord, backings, and CIB, however I don't ever see that happening.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Nov 16 at 2014 11:37 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 23:37:04 -0500

I'm under the impression that it took 12 troops to keep one grunt in the field during Vietnam. Does any higher up know if that statement still holds true? Has it gone up or down?

Response by PO3 Brendan "Smitty" Smith made Nov 17 at 2014 3:03 AM

PO3 Brendan "Smitty" Smith — Mon, 17 Nov 2014 03:03:26 -0500

Here's my thoughts. As veterans were always talking about how people need to learn how to take a joke. Everything is so PC. Then some Grunt calls someone a POG and people flip their lid. Am I the only POG out there that just doesn't give a damn? Person other than Grunt. That's what it means. Yes, I'm a POG.

I guess for me, it depends on how it's used. If someone says, "Dude, you're really a POG." because I don't know a damn thing about how the infantry works, okay. You got me there. If someone tells me, "Who cares, you're just an f'n POG." That's when my ears perk up. It's not even that you called me a POG. It's that you implied my service means less than yours because you either chose to be in the infantry, or were simply voluntold at MEPS.

You can call me POG all day long, because I am. It doesn't bother me but, don't try to tell me that my service, my willingness to do a job that 99% of the population either can't do, or won't do, is some how less than yours.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2014 3:19 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Nov 2014 03:19:06 -0500

A POG is a POG and that's not always a bad thing. I don't see why folks get butt hurt about it. I've met some POGs harder than woodpecker lips, but they still aren't infantry MEN

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2014 6:35 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Nov 2014 06:35:47 -0500

You won't see any infantry calling medical personnel "POG" when they're coming in wounded.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2014 6:44 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Nov 2014 06:44:30 -0500

To me being a POG is not just being a Person other than grunt. It is being soft. A POG is that guy complaining about that the shower aren't hot enough when they are in the field or about food isn't good when they are getting two hot meals a day. And wearing every layer of snivel gear they were ever issued when it is about 50 degrees outside. While the "Grunt" is laying a patrol base in the rain when it is in the 40s all night and doesn't complain. That is it is to me.
Or the guy that is so overweight that he can barely get into a Hummv and they have to special order his IOTV.

Just because you aren't infantry that doesn't make you a POG automatically.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2014 8:03 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Nov 2014 08:03:09 -0500

Being in the Army I have the upmost respect for our sister services. They all bring a piece of the pie for the big picture...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2014 1:42 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Nov 2014 13:42:26 -0500

Really?!

You are in the service, where you face certain death. Your feelings should be the last worry on your mind. Stop being so soft.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2014 4:12 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Nov 2014 16:12:39 -0500

Infantry wins battles...

Logistics wins wars. :)

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2014 4:15 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Nov 2014 16:15:58 -0500

Please excuse my ignorance, but what in the world does POG mean?

Response by Capt Al Parker made Nov 17 at 2014 4:29 PM

Capt Al Parker — Mon, 17 Nov 2014 16:29:13 -0500

Then the CSM was no better than the Soldiers he did not correct or run it up the chain? A prime example of "Poor" leadership.

Response by MSG Greg Kelly made Nov 17 at 2014 8:09 PM

MSG Greg Kelly — Mon, 17 Nov 2014 20:09:42 -0500

I think we have to remember here and I am as guilty as anyone else, we are trained to think the things we do. I have written here on RP and used terms such as POG and REMF. I have nothing but respect for anyone who serves his/her time with honor. But yes pogs of all branches bring it one themselves. In Iraq our platoon came in from a mission and we went straight to the chow hall ASAP. We are sitting there eating and the table behind us starts filling up with AF folks. We are sitting silent eating and we are hearing this AF Pog tell this story about this mission he was on with his Army friends and how they were in this nasty fire fight BLAH BLAH well we start laughing and commenting loud enough for these AF girls to hear us and they start defending their comrade of course. That's cool, problem was we were the platoon and we weren't his Army buddies. We never did learn how he knew what happened.
The other time I was sent to Community based WWP unit I step into the elevator and there is a female Army CPT there already I nodded to her. Mentally I noted she had not deployed and had that superior shitty look on her face that lots of Pogs get when they know they suck. So what does she do to a senior NCO waits until the Elevator fills up with soldiers turns to me and says "Sgt I do not recall you giving me the greeting of the day when you walked into the Elevator." I replied "yes Ma'am I nodded to you when I entered how would you know if I could speak. Besides my CO told me never talk to strangers". I don't think she how to reply to that.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2014 8:37 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Nov 2014 20:37:12 -0500

I deployed recently with "Infantry men" if that's what you want to call them and they were soo sorry all they did was complain... They slept all day and night while us "pogs" pulled security and did every mission and detail.. I can't stand the infantry

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 8:09 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 08:09:20 -0500

http://terminallance.com/2014/11/18/terminal-lance-344-pogue/

Terminal Lance - Terminal Lance #344 “Pogue”

There was a bit of commotion over a Marine Corps Times article regarding the age old debate of POG’s vs Grunts on Monday. The article presents the case that maybe POG’s shouldn’t be made fun of and called POG’s. Hilarity ensued online and across the Corps as people reacted in ways ranging from “who cares?” to “stop being a pussy.”

Response by 1SG Mike Case made Nov 18 at 2014 8:45 AM

1SG Mike Case — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 08:45:20 -0500

I would have laughed as well if I heard "shut up POG" after hearing someone bitch about being called that. I think a good dose of the rivalry is a good thing. When we were given shit by the combat arms, we dished it right back. We told them that we would use small words and nothing over two syllables. Teach your Soldiers to be proud of the job that they joined up for. Teach them that when they get shit to give it right back. Teach them we are all a small cog in the big military machine and to be proud of that.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 9:17 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 09:17:30 -0500

My thing is this. I am a POG. Unless you are an 03, you're a POG. Personnel Other than Grunt. There are no ifs ands or buts...Lets take a look at the term GRUNT though...General Replacement UNTrained. This term came around in a time where infantry personnel were being sent overseas before training in order to keep up the troop levels and they then learned on the fly but then they weren't untrained so therefore, technically no longer a Grunt...

However, that's irrelevant in todays world. There will always be POG vs. Grunt. I'm in a Combat Arms MOS as an MP. I've never done a day of PMO work in my life. It's all been field side work with convoy security in Afghanistan. I've been trained in a variety of 03 tactics as well with patrolling, machine gunnery, ambush techniques, MOUT...but I'm still not a Grunt. I'm a field MP...

Do I call Marines POGs while being a POG? Yes. To me the term POG is someone who is soft as mentioned earlier. Someone who complains about no hot chow, or showers, or their phones dying in the field...We didn't have phones or hot chow when we were outside the wire for 2 weeks at a time on a convoy. We slept in our trucks or on cots or on the ground...Our showers were baby wipes and our "hot chow" was getting the chance to use the MRE heater. I also call deployment dodgers. Ones who had multiple opportunities to deploy but always found an excuse to get out of it but then when we got back they said how they wanted to go but they wouldn't them..

Response by MSgt Paul Anderson made Nov 18 at 2014 9:47 AM

MSgt Paul Anderson — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 09:47:47 -0500

POG used to be POGUE years ago, but it still is mostly used in a derogitory manner. Everyone has a job to do. Bur it's always the "my job is harder, more dangerous" or whatever. Been going on for years. Other terms have been used now and in the past. REMF, LEG, FEATHER MERCHANT, STRAP HANGER, and my absolute favorite, CHAIR FORCE since I am Air Force. Joint service trained as an EOD tech, I learne a lot when I was designated as NCOIC of my class at the basic school. I had Marines, Army, and a couple sailors as well as Air Force in my class. Yeah, I was tested harder by some instructors to see if I could hack it and if I was worthy of my post.
I almost forgot. There are a few more that might be a bit dated, but I have heard them many times. Anchor Clankers or Squids. Sea Going Bellhops. Propellor Heads, Doggies o whatever else is there.
Do your job the best you can and be proud of what you do. Those derogatory names or terms, I believe will still be around when we are long gone.
Besides. I get crap sometimes from one particular SF SFC quite a bit. But it is done with love and I give it right back. I am very proud of my Green Beret son. My other son too. He's a musician.
Sorry if that was a bit much.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 10:37 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 10:37:09 -0500

As a 42A I've been called all sort of terms such as POG or Chairborne Ranger, but at the end I just took it with a grain of salt because it's all jokes. Also as a 42 I usually have the last laugh when it comes to their paperwork, but other than that I think it's just good ole brotherly love.

Response by SFC Dave Joslin made Nov 18 at 2014 11:04 AM

SFC Dave Joslin — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 11:04:13 -0500

I lived both sides of the fence as a medic, going from hospital to combat arms and back and forth. For me, when I was a POG, I was a POG - it was accepted and understood. When I was running any gunning on the line -I reveled in it and I never felt more alive. But, in retrospect, it was the POG positions (balanced with the CA assignments) that ultimately led to my success after retirement! The civilian world needed to see that I could manage and lead in a fixed environment - without the balance of assignments....I'm not sure the same opportunities would have been available.

As far as the POG label issue - thicken your skins...your in the military for goodness sake. If a simple word offends you I would hate to see your reaction when you get shot at, or find your first IED the hard way...get over it and move on!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 11:47 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 11:47:50 -0500

If I were in the marines, Id be considered a pog. besides the point, I am a support personnel. If i were a mechanic in the Marines I would probably say "look MF, if it werent for my MOS you wouldnt be functional. No vehicle, which means ur ass would be on foot." Therefore my MOS is just as important as yours.

Response by SGT Edward Thomas made Nov 18 at 2014 11:51 AM

SGT Edward Thomas — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 11:51:41 -0500

In my experience, a POG is a Person Other than Grunt. I know what I was able to participate in during my time in service and wouldn't change a thing. Wear it as a badge of honor. There will always be more Combat Support and Combat Service Support as opposed to the Combat Arms.

Signed A. Proud POG

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 12:26 PM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 12:26:13 -0500

I believe the Air Force is running into some of these issues with using the term "nonners". While I don't really care about termslike that I know some people who get extremely buttt hurt over it. I know some people who don't care if they're call nonners either. In today's "gentler af"(and I disagree it's them pampering everyone like they do know) I think it's more just professional courtesy to just avoid it if it will cause issues on the job. Personally if it's something that doesn't affect the job Getting accomplished I see nothing wrong with it

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 1:15 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 13:15:43 -0500

I have seen one upset POG, this individual initiated the dreaded "Death" transaction in the old SIDPERS system against a Combat Arms soldier. Talk about screwing up a guy's records!!! Wow....

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 1:25 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 13:25:33 -0500

One thing that can be said about the so called POGs, they do have much brighter future after their military career than the average grunt because it's not as hard to translate their skill set versus combat skills to a civilian career. Embrace the POG title it'll pay off for you.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 3:04 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 15:04:15 -0500

As a former Scout (Desert Shield/Storm) and current Transportation Coordinator, I am proud to be a POG. So when the Infantry starts throwing around the word 'POG', I politely remind them that I may be a POG, but that freedom bird scheduled to fly them home could suddenly break down and be a couple days late.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 4:30 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 16:30:58 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member 2008, Kandahar afghanistan. 2-2 MEU Advon came in to set up shop for the main force. We offered MOD rooms for the Advon. One of their sr NCOs said, "bud, were the marines, we came to kick ass and take names" I quote that! So they elected to stay in palomino tent city. The three day rain season came in. Saw this Sgm at the DFAC. He was busy with his major trying to get the thirty pounds of mud off his boots that was up to his knees. In Afghanistan, it's powdery and when it's wet, it's like cement. He asked if those mods were still available to my major, without skipping a beat, take a little guess what I told him???

Be tough all you want on this feed, grunts. But I've been with you guys in some instances. Thankfully not as long. And while I appreciate what you guys do, those days I was with you, you bitched and complained like the rest of the MOS's. I was fortunate to be considered one of you for that short time. That may be why I saw it.

That being said, there's a fine line between hard and stupid. That day in Afghanistan, well, that remark and declination of a better living arrangement was just plain stupid. I applaud the essence of grunts not complaining, but that's the biggest load of manure I've ever heard. Lol.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 5:10 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 17:10:14 -0500

Does anyone ever wonder if the Spartans (the battle of Thermopylae type) had these conversations.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Nov 18 at 2014 6:00 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 18:00:57 -0500

Friendly ribbing I don't mind so much. The issue is when it goes beyond friendly ribbing and acutally becomes a superiority complex. There is no place for true "I'm better than you" attitudes. The military is a team. If one person on the team doesnt' do his job, the whole suffers. And that POG may actually save your life one day....

Response by SPC Kel Rowland made Nov 18 at 2014 7:50 PM

SPC Kel Rowland — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 19:50:51 -0500

It doesn't make sense, didn't you pay your dues while in training? Why call people out in a deployed environment? If they are in training I have no problem with kicking sand in their faces, but deployed places are a whole different story...

Response by SGT Artiesa Woods made Nov 18 at 2014 7:59 PM

SGT Artiesa Woods — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 19:59:06 -0500

The bottom line is this: the job doesn't get done unless we all work together. Combat arms needs support in order to get their jobs done expeditiously. I went to a BBQ with an Infantry friend and was the only POG there, of course the POG bashing was laid on pretty thick, but it came to a point where one of the grunts started talking about how he was being charged for a vest that was cut off down range after he was shot. Being the good supply guy that I was, I let him know that this POG knew that he was being done dirty and that it only took a simple memorandum signed by the Commander to relieve him of responsibility. I know the rivalry is all in fun which is why I went ahead and sent him a copy of the memorandum template. I just find it funny when Infantry talks so much crap about us POGs but when it comes down to it, they will ultimately need us for something.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 8:33 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 20:33:44 -0500

When I first saw this headline on Facebook I thought it was a duffleblog article... then I realized that it was from Marine Corps Times and I shook my head and started to get a little mad. People in the military these days, and the world in general, are so thin skinned and sensitive. In another generation or two the western world, America in particular, is going to be a bunch of marshmallows.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 8:51 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 20:51:34 -0500

POG or not they are still a member of the Army and all MOS is needed to complete the mission. We all had the option to chose our jobs and if someone else calling you a POG really affects you than you have bigger problems.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2014 11:12 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Nov 2014 23:12:36 -0500

This follows the same thought process as some of our submarine terms of "endearment": NUB, SKIP, DIPSHIT, and various others that would get me in a ton of trouble here, but we still use them. Everyone who come to a submarine is a NUB (non-useful body), because frankly, people don't even know how to keep the forward end of the boat in the proper direction, much less know how to save a life during a casualty. We all, well most of us, understand this and embrace it, yet the senior sailors get into massive amounts of trouble if any of those terms are heard. Now, I am not condoning true hazing, belittling, bullying, etc... because there is a line that we should know not to cross, but you have to have that ability to crack and take a joke. Stress is something that shows people onboard the boats that you can handle anything that is thrown at you if the times comes, and leads to the crew trusting you with their lives.

I know these days we have a "New Military", but I see things getting worse especially when it comes down to the nitty gritty and be it soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen, are forced to make that decision that could save or cost a life. It make me truly think when underway if we were in a situation similar to that of the USS San Francisco would we make it back with some of the sailors we have today....

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2014 7:06 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Nov 2014 07:06:43 -0500

When was the last time a war or battle was won by infantry alone?

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Nov 19 at 2014 9:07 AM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Wed, 19 Nov 2014 09:07:39 -0500

Like SFC Mark Merino, I have been on both sides of this issue.

When I was a young, hard-charging Airborne-Ranger Infantry officer, I professed that there were only two branches in the Army - Infantry and Support. I looked down on the Artillery, Armor, Signal, Military Police, etc, etc. and considered them "second class soldiers", I guess.

When I was branch-transferred to the Military Police Corps as a Captain, due to a combat arms disqualifying shoulder injury, I thought it was surely the kiss of death. I was now "one of them"... As it turns out, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. I loved what I did every day and found that soldiers are soldiers, regardless of the branch. I did, however, experience the "we/they" attitude between the combat arms and non-combat arms and thought it was inappropriate. I attributed it, however, to ignorance (as I had displayed when I was an Infantry officer).

I did find that I seemed to have a better working relationship with many combat arms officers than some of my Military Police peers experienced and I attribute it to my Infantry experience, as well as them "recognizing me as one of their own" due to the Expert Infantry Badge, Jump Wings and Ranger Tab they saw on my uniform.

There is no problem, in my opinion, with branch rivalry. Folks calling each other Grunts, Treadheads, Cannon-Cockers, Pigs, etc. (or Squids, Jarheads, and Zoomies, for that matter) is just part of military life.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2014 10:07 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Nov 2014 10:07:24 -0500

I get called POG by blue cords all the time. Doesn't bother me because i know they don't mean it. As an FO I've been sleeping right there with them in the mud and rain. I've kicked in doors and cleared buildings with my guys. The only ones who call me POG are the fatties and shit heads.

Response by SFC Jason Porter made Nov 19 at 2014 11:11 AM

SFC Jason Porter — Wed, 19 Nov 2014 11:11:31 -0500

Lol the new military, all it is a new Social Program! This is too funny.

Response by PV2 Abbott Shaull made Nov 19 at 2014 12:47 PM

PV2 Abbott Shaull — Wed, 19 Nov 2014 12:47:58 -0500

I will start out with personal experience from the Airborne unit I was assigned to. We 2 supply guys, in our units. The Sergeant and Specialist, both were there for awhile when I got there, and the Specialist was bucking for a promotion, but he did nothing more than he had to, and if you put in request for anything, even if all forms were fill out correctly they would be misplaced, and items never seen. Now the Sergeant on the other had for Supply guy was very squared away, he was always on top of things, if he seen any of the request that were turned in while he was away, which was often, he would make sure it was turned and gotten. He would make sure stuff we needed was doled out and not kept in the cage in the basement collecting dust. He looked after the Company the best he could, but he was always being dragged to other companies in the Battalion and Brigade to help keep their stuff straight. Even when the our Sergeant and the Specialist was able to go out on details, he was never able to be found, which infuriated Top. Which was one of many other reasons he never went before the E-5 board, besides the well known drug problem he and other had, but they could never get them piss hot.

Or the thing, that it seems that front line units always seem to get the gear they need right after it greatest need. Largely due to the fact, that someone in the rear seen something 'shiny' and had to hold onto it for little while longer. Or the fact that there is many times when say Intel guys know more facts, but don't tell the guys doing the operation all the minute details that they need to know, because they don't think they are important or they are 'Top Secret' and the troops aren't authorize to know. Well if it can get them killed or injured on the mission it kinda important don't you think.

It deep seated mistrust that has taken generations in the military to build. On today modern Battlefield it has no place since there is no clear cut Front-line like there was in during WWI or WWII. Even in the 1991, I have accounts where gear that was suppose to make to front-line units was still sitting in the rear, in some case it had been there long enough to make it to the front line units who needed it. It has been one of the Army's failing of not following the Marines in expecting all the troops of being able to perform as Riflemen in pinch. It another failing of the those in leadership in combat arms and support arms not working together to cut this shit out. We can sit here and wonder why every Service has their own Field Uniform, but the mentality even goes inside the each Service to some points. It's just silly to continue them all the time. This one them, I have always believed that not one MOS is better than other, we all need each other get the mission done. The gear and information needs to get to people who need it to get that mission done. Quit with the BS rules or believes and start acting like you are all in the same Army, and trained to the same standards, and work for the same President, and working toward the same Objective how every cloudy that may seem at times.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2014 12:59 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Nov 2014 12:59:36 -0500

Also having been on both sides of the fence I have tried to have this conversation, it seems to be a constant game of one upsmanship that can escalate forever... I was Infantry but not Ranger Qualified or I was SF but not Delta blah blah blah. All jobs are there for a reason, what I didn't understand as an Infantryman is that most of us "Pog's" don't care, even though I did lose a friend when he went SF and couldn't stop belittling everyone who wasn't SF... Just live your life and do your best.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2014 1:02 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Nov 2014 13:02:22 -0500

I've been on both sides of the fence on this. I spent a large portion of my career as an 11B and loved the job while I did it. I now, as an Electronic Warfare NCO fall into the definition of "POG". I do not have thin skin and am not offended by the word POG or having it directed at me. I take it to mean "person other than grunt" and technically this would be a correct statement since I am no longer an infantryman by job title. I agree with professionalism being an integral part of who we are and what we do, but have we as a Nation and a military become so sensitized to being politically correct that anything outside of being PC is considered unprofessional. They are not now nor will they ever have the same definition.

Response by SSG Christopher Parrish made Nov 19 at 2014 1:51 PM

SSG Christopher Parrish — Wed, 19 Nov 2014 13:51:05 -0500

Just had a thought pop in my head, usually a recipe for trouble, but this time I think it is a valid question.

If we do away with the term "POG", then what are we gonna call the snacks we stuff in our rucks?

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2014 7:17 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Nov 2014 19:17:48 -0500

http://thedogtagchronicles.com/2012/04/04/why-grunts-hate-pogs/

Why Grunts Hate POGs

By: Peter Sessum So there I was, in Afghanistan, no shit. I was in Khost Province on FOB Salerno and about to go on a mission. There was a part missing from my machine gun mount so I went into the ...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2014 9:41 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Nov 2014 21:41:09 -0500

We unanimously voted to roll on Red Air out of Camp Victory due to the extreme POG ness.

So you could call it person's other than grunts. you would be wrong the term goes back much farther and before the term Grunt was used to describe the infantry (I like 'crunchies' because that is the sound they make when tanks drive over them.).

Anyhow. Think of this, we would rather go out without air support than spend another minute in the land of the CSM and uniform violations. The 'Grooming Standard' was considered more of a threat than enemy action.

People can whine that they don't get the recognition that the infantry or the combat arms guys do. They can complain that we are out of uniform and not wearing the correct number of reflective belts. But seriously that arrogance is sometimes what keeps them coming back for more when you roll the day after taking an IED or haven't had a shower this week.

That pride, that cocky arrogant pride can keep you going when all else fails because the other option is to become a Fobbit.

If you are one of those non-combat arms types that spends lots of time out in sector, then when called an insulting term you turn around and say, 'Yeah, because it's not like i was getting shot at hauling your ass and your play station out to the COP. You signed up for that shit I got volentold.'

For the record I am now such a Fobbit that i doubt i would even know where the wire starts. Such things happen as you age. Now I have to say things that all add up to "I used to be cool! Honest!"

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2014 6:50 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 06:50:39 -0500

Huh well I'm so un-hipp, prime & proper I just have to ask "what is a POG"??!!...Once I know that then maybe I can supply a good comment.

Response by CW4 William Van Almsick made Nov 20 at 2014 9:15 AM

CW4 William Van Almsick — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 09:15:47 -0500

Early in my career, I was a 12B Combat Engineer. In OSUT (how many remember what OSUT is?), our Drill Sergeants kept telling us that we were "an infantryman with a pick and shovel." So true.

A little humorous story. In Desert Storm, I was in the 101st in one of the UH60 Assault Battalions. For the combat missions, all of the seats in the rear were removed and a kevlar blanket was installed on the floor. The infantry would just jump in the back with all of their gear. I would try to take care of our infantry brethren as much as I could because I knew that they definitely had it harder than us but I also knew that they chose that path.

One mission, we were a flight of 4 Blackhawks enroute to a forward location with an infantry squad in the back when we had to land in the middle of the desert due to a sandstorm. We waited for a couple of hours for the storm to clear but to no avail. During that waiting period, the unit we were hauling put out a security team and the rest the infantry guys stayed in the back of the helicopters and there were various conversations. The conversation eventually made it POG's and the life of the Infantry. There was lots of good-humored jabs about how hard the infantry life is and how easy the aviation had it.

Well, we finally made the decision that we would have to spend the night in the middle of the desert. I got out of the front of the helicopter, walked around and opened the cargo door and told them to get out of the helicopter. They looked at me as if I was crazy but I told them, "When we made the decision to stay the night here, the back of this helicopter just became my tent. This is where my crew will bed-down for the night." I continued, "Sorry guys, this is the life of a POG."

They got the message. However, they soon got over it when in the morning, we dug out our little one-burner stove and an old kettle that I always carried on missions and boiled water for some hot coffee. Our crew had stockpiled all of miscellaneous packets from our left-over MRE's. We had quite a large stash of various items, including lots of coffee packets. We were able to provide them with some snacks and hot coffee.

We were once again back in the good graces of or infantry brethren.

Response by CW4 William Van Almsick made Nov 20 at 2014 9:59 AM

CW4 William Van Almsick — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 09:59:05 -0500

Another story from Desert Storm about POG's and the Infantry life....

I was in a UH60 Assault Battalion during Desert Storm. Our normal Blackhawk crew consisted of 2 pilots and a crew chief. There was no manning position for the door gunner. So, Division task each infantry brigade to supply 30 people (15 for each Blackhawk company that supported them) to become door gunners. Ok, if you are an Infantry Company Commander, who are you going to give-up for this tasking? You guessed it, we got the "bottom of the barrel" guys.

The first couple of days, it was quite humorous to watch them. They would sit in a group and wait for the NCO to issue specific instructions and then they would all "move-out." This is quite different that what we in Aviation was used to. I am not making fun of this, it is just not what Aviation POGs do.

There is a very important reason that the infantry operates this way. The Infantry guy doesn't move until being told to do so, and when he does move, it is to accomplish a specific task. He must attempt to accomplish that specific task. That is the way the Infantry operates. I have tremendous respect for the Infantry because most of those specific tasks involve great danger.

However, us Aviation POG's just don't "operate" that way. So, after watching this for 2 days, another senior Warrant Officer, myself, and the First Sergeant went over to the group and explained to them how we "operate" and what we expect of them. We explained that every morning, the First Sergeant has a formation and issues the tasks for the day. Then we expect you to "be at the right place, at the right time, with the right equipment, doing the right thing." Simple as that. Yes, they would still have the NCO's supervising them and directing them but for the most part, we expected them to be thinking for themselves.

Oh man, these guy flourished. Yes there was a couple who just "didn't get it", but the majority of them "saw the light." The door gunner for my helicopter was planning on getting out of the service when his term was up due to the Infantry life. He thought the whole Army was like that. However, he re-up'ed into a different MOS and went on to become a Senior NCO. The majority of them ended-up re-up'ing into a different MOS and a couple went back to the Infantry and became NCO's and worked their way up the ladder. But they got a bigger picture of how the Army, as a whole, operates.

But again, please don't get me wrong, there is a very important reason as to why the Infantry "operates" the way it does. Those warriors need to react to very specific orders, at a specific place, at a specific time or the mission fails (I'm sure an Infantry guy can explain this much better than I did).

Response by SSgt B Mac made Nov 20 at 2014 11:11 AM

SSgt B Mac — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 11:11:24 -0500

Everyone is a POG to someone else. Years ago during a POG deployment to Baghdad, Iraq I had to travel to Asaliah in Qatar for a few days to conduct training. Arriving in country I had to put my rifle in the armory. Troops at Asaliah were authorized 3 beers a day and were authorized to go off base. It was funny hearing everyone complain about their conditions.

Response by CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2014 2:46 PM

CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 14:46:47 -0500

Those who insist on using the term make me sad. They cant see beyond that simplest of kool-aid. It doesnt make one better to be proud of not being a POG, it makes one bitter. No one likes a chip on the shoulder No one needs to kiss up to anyone, but good luck trying to win wars without POGs.

I mean, we get it already, move on.

Response by PFC Edward Mott made Nov 20 at 2014 3:17 PM

PFC Edward Mott — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 15:17:02 -0500

OMG!!! Get your panties out of a twist. POG stands for Personnel Other than Grunt. If the shoe fits, wear it. Get over it. Sure, we're Marines, everybody thinks they're better than everybody else, so on and so forth, but this term is coined lovingly. At the end of the day we all love each other because we're all Marines. I know for a fact as a Supply Marine I had it made in the shade with a glass of lemonade because not once did I have to pay for Cammies or Steel-toe boots. Sure, that made me a lot of friends because I had the "hook-up", but that's just the way it goes.
P-O-G till I D-I-E! That's why these grunts wanna F*** with me!! I'm so POOOOOOGGGG!!!!

*To clarify, I was not aware the term was used in other branches of service.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2014 3:39 PM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 15:39:41 -0500

I do not see this as being a problem at all. after it is just words

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2014 4:03 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 16:03:17 -0500

Who cares? This is a traditional divide. Deal with it or get out. I don't mind being called a POG. At least I don't have to go out to the field for weeks at a time.

Response by SGT Criss M. made Nov 20 at 2014 4:20 PM

SGT Criss M. — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 16:20:48 -0500

How bout POM (people other than musicians) I can play the piano, trombone and trumpet, plus, I am still expert shot, or maybe POF (people other than finance)? Let a Soldiers pay get lost and see how much they love the fine folks in finance.
That all I got to say about that.

Response by Sgt Jeff Fowler made Nov 20 at 2014 4:31 PM

Sgt Jeff Fowler — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 16:31:13 -0500

Samuel Nicholas broke Robert Mullan's balls for being a recruiter 239 years ago. The cave man who hunted mastodon no doubt talked shit on the caveman who sat in the cave sharpening sticks. This is the way of the world. If one does not want to be called a POG then by all means, be a grunt. This is not a difficult concept.

Response by SFC Nikhil Kumra made Nov 20 at 2014 4:35 PM

SFC Nikhil Kumra — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 16:35:02 -0500

OMG lol... Is this for real?

Simple solution... If you're a POG, and you're offended, quit being a damn POG. If you're a POG, and you realize you're a POG, and you're NOT apart of this "PC, I feel good-You feel good" thing that's going on in the military right now that's absolutely destroying our ranks, then carry on.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2014 4:51 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 16:51:51 -0500

Unnecessary whining. Get over it. Do your job and you'll get the respect you deserve when it matters the most.

Response by Sgt Todd Hinkle made Nov 20 at 2014 5:19 PM

Sgt Todd Hinkle — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 17:19:25 -0500

I myself was a "POG." Being in the Air Wing I was referred to as POG while aboard the USS Boxer by the grunts on board, also was called a POG by grunts while in Iraq. To be honest it didn't bother me in the least because I knew that if there weren't guys like me it would make their jobs WAY more difficult. To be honest, I'm fine with the way infantry members, of any branch really, wanting to differentiate themselves because I have not stood in the line of fire. I have not taken life, or witnessed life taken. To do the job that many of them have to do requires a certain mentality. They have to harden themselves as individuals, so it's natural for them to see guys that are not facing fire on a daily basis as beneath them. In my experience, if you are a "POG" that is professional and you are good at your job then you are a "POG" only by name. You aren't disrespected because the grunts know that if their were no support Marines then their survivability in combat would suffer, and that's what matters most to them. When they really get irritated at "POGs" is when one is disrespectful and or crappy at their job. But I'd say that in any MOS people would be pissed at you if you were those things.

Where I think the major disconnect is between Grunts and POGs is that in the infantry rank structure is far more defined than it is in any type of support unit. For instance in the Air Wing, a PFC isn't going to get his ass chewed by a LCpl. However, in the infantry its common to see a PFC get his ass chewed by a LCpl. That LCpl might be his fire team leader and in combat if he doesn't respect that LCpl or follow his orders lives could be lost. So, I think it is important that when you are a POG and you are dealing with a grunt you keep in mind the rank structure AT ALL RANKS. Grunt Sgts aren't used to grunt Cpls talking to them as if they are peers bc the structure of a combat platoon doesn't allow for that. So when a POG Cpl talks to a grunt Sgt like he would a POG Sgt it pisses the grunt off, and being a POG only adds fuel to that fire.

Support Marines should keep all of that in mind when dealing with grunts. You don't know the horrors they have been through or seen.

With all of that said, by no means should a POG anything take shit from a grunt that is lower in rank. But if you are a Cpl and jump a grunt LCpl.....be prepared for some salty, mean ass Sgt to come find you!!! LOL

Response by Sgt Evan Proctor made Nov 20 at 2014 6:08 PM

Sgt Evan Proctor — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 18:08:46 -0500

That's like a Tree asking to not be called a "Tree" because it is offended by the term "Tree"

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2014 6:56 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 18:56:25 -0500

When I was on submarines, I started as a NUB (Non-Useful Body) because I wasn't qualified to do anything yet. I had to gain knowledge in my job as well as other ship's systems and the basic functions of my shipmates' jobs. Once I was qualified, I had earned respect, and respect is what this is about.

I don't so much care about the term "POG," because it's just a word, but it's the attitude and lack of respect normally accompanying the term when someone is labeled as one by one of their fellow servicemen... Regardless of branch or specialty, we're all on the same team and ultimately have the same mission: to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

To disrespect a fellow serviceman because they're not as "gung-ho" or "hooah" as you is simply childish and brings nothing but dishonor.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2014 8:05 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 20:05:38 -0500

We all have a job to do. As far as name calling...we all do it within the service. Whether we make fun of the Air Force for air condition and cable TV or the Marines for never getting new equipment or the ARNG for having beards and getting promoted based on who their uncle is....We fight together and that needs to be the focus. The more we get away from fighting others we will tease each other more until we go to wear and unite again.

Response by SSgt Randy Saulsberry made Nov 20 at 2014 8:10 PM

SSgt Randy Saulsberry — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 20:10:44 -0500

Look I'm a air wing Marine or POG if u prefer. The real question is WHO CARES? I see it as good competition between two different aspects of military life. Is the competition between 49er and cowboys fans separating them. No its just to groups of people who love their aspect of life. Quit being sensitive. Let's not turn sibling rivalry a serious problem

Response by 1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2014 8:51 PM

1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 20:51:02 -0500

This doesn't bother me for the most part. We all have nicknames for each other, but this one is a term of endearment to the grunts and borderline amusing to the rest. That being said, I have a lot of respect for the infantry and combat arms in general - it's just disappointing when you hear this as an insult from people who don't reciprocate that respect.

When I was a cadet at LDAC, I had some reservist SPC call me a POG like it was supposed to hurt my feelings...but I'm just thinking, alright. I'll be a POG with a college degree and a commission straight into my dream job in Army Medicine. Enjoy your life, specialist.

Response by Cpl Jay West made Nov 21 at 2014 1:37 AM

Cpl Jay West — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 01:37:24 -0500

If your a POG, then your a POG. If your anything else, you shouldn't be called a POG. I give respect to the Infantry because they are the backbone of the Marines and Army but they have a mentality that if your not Infantry, you are considered a POG. As a Combat Engineer, line company, in some cases, we are actually the first to arrive on scene to clear shit out for everyone else to pass. We are considered grunts, just with a different title so we are far from being a POG.

Response by SFC Vernon McNabb made Nov 21 at 2014 5:36 AM

SFC Vernon McNabb — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 05:36:16 -0500

I firmly believe that, "Without us POGs, the Infantry would not exist. Just the same as, every MOS other than Grunt, is designed to support the Grunt. It's a love/hate relationship. I remember a Grunt calling me a POG right before some cold-load training on my Blackhawk. I said "Yep! And if I wasn't, your dumba$$ would be walking to the PZ." His buddies laughed, I laughed, we moved on and accomplished the $#it out of our mission. PFL, Baby!! (POG for Life)

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 5:38 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 05:38:33 -0500

Everything has its limits. As long as everyone knows that limit we should be fine.

Response by Cpl George Goodwin made Nov 21 at 2014 7:00 AM

Cpl George Goodwin — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 07:00:48 -0500

It comes down to the same thing as interservice rivalry. We will beat up on each other but when an outsider starts on one, we all merge to address the issue. Once that is done we go back to bickering among ourselves.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 7:35 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 07:35:16 -0500

I have no issue with being called a POG by most, as I am not a grunt. The issue that I have is when other Combat MOSs try to tell other people how to do their job. The reason that I am here is to do my job, I don't need you to tell me how to do it. You don't see me telling you how to do your job, so just tell me what you would like us to protect and we will provide a detailed COA of how to best do the job.
I also like it when other Combat Arms guys are surprised that there are Air Defenders out there that have Ranger Tabs and can still talk the manuever fight.
Other than that, stop having such thin skin.

Response by Sgt Kyle Danning made Nov 21 at 2014 10:13 AM

Sgt Kyle Danning — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 10:13:36 -0500

A couple of notes:

#1) - I was a recruiter from '07-'10, believe it or not 0300 Infantry was the first MOS to be completely filled up when the new fiscal year opened up the MOS slots. It was hard for anyone who joined later who wanted infantry, to actually get that contracted MOS.

#2) - 20% of the Marine Corps is Infantry related. Chances of being a POG is pretty high... obviously, so quit complaining.

#3) - 90% of the kids that I did put into infantry scored 50 or higher on the ASVAB. Why do smart kids want to be in infantry? Because they know they are smart, and honestly want a different kind of challenge; such as being a grunt, and testing their body and physical performance. They want to do something the rest of everyone else does not want to do. Seriously, all the Bravos (32-49 ASVAB) want smart MOS's 50+, and all of the Alphas (50-99 ASVAB) want combat related which you need a 32+ on the ASVAB to be a grunt.

#4) - I am a POG. F-18 & AV-8B Ordnance. Next time they need air support on the ground, think about who is actually bringing the steel rain for grunts.

#5) - Al Asad, 2006 - we had grunts come and work with us for a day. Needless to say, they said our job sucked and couldn't keep up with the ordnance loading evolutions. They would have rather be back out in the field than doing what we do.

Lastly - Everyone supports each other, and I don't care what MOS you have, what you chose or voluntold to do as an MOS, or forced to take because that was the only MOS available when you contracted. We are all brothers and sisters, we all fight the good fight. POGs, Infantry, or AirWingers... we all bleed the same color. If being called a POG offends you, then I do apologize that you have soft skin, and actually let that kind of trash talk get to you.

SF,

POG

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 11:37 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:37:18 -0500

This is a fascinating discussion, and I have a fluffy answer.

The people who have been in combat situations (ie in firefights, maneuvering to contact, actually attempting to move forward and kill the enemy), have a unique perspective on the world. I cannot explain this perspective, it is above words. These people (usually men due to social norms) have been chosen to follow orders and thereby been forced to do and see things that the majority of people will never have to experience. This includes their fellow SM who has made different choices who will face different orders. These people (the shooters) have an close bond that leads to a severe distrust of the outside world. I would argue that this distrust is borne out of the fact that they have trusted others with their lives and been rewarded in that trust. This will lead to forming a very small and robust circle of trust that will label all outsiders in order to categorize them so that they are easily identifiable.

Do I downplay the role of support people? No, I needed trucks that ran, guns that fired, bullets to shoot, and medical supplies to take care of my platoon. Will I ever trust them like my brother infantrymen? No. Will I label them POG's in my mind for easy identification of those I can likely trust quicker than those I have walked outside the wire with? Probably. Is it a good system? Sometimes but I have served with some piss poor shooters and some seriously awesome POGs.

I do not discount your ability to do your job well in whatever job you have chosen.

I will not trust you as much as Andrew, Bob or Durkin.

Thanks y'all for your patience. You're mostly ok in my book.

As an aside, compared to the soldiers of WWI, WWII, we're all POGs.

Response by SGT Steve Vincent made Nov 21 at 2014 11:50 AM

SGT Steve Vincent — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:50:55 -0500

2 things: First, the term "POG" itself, is an acronym, standing for Personnel Other than Grunts, i.e. EVERYONE who isn't an Infantryman. That means literally every single person in the military who isn't an 11 Series in the Army, or a 03 series in the Marines. We can include Seals and the other combat SOF MOS's. I say combat, because now things like psyops fall under the Specwarfare umbrella, and they go around telling anyone that will listen that they are Special Forces. Yeah, try telling that to someone from Group, or a Seal operator, and see how special your face feels when they're done with you...

Second thing, and most important to this whole debate of grunts vs. pogs; grunt is also a military acronym. It stands for General Replacement, UNTrained. This term became became commonplace in the military lexicon during WWII, to denote the large amount of personnel being shipped to the various theatres, with little or no training. These individuals would then be issued kit and a weapon, given rudimentary training, and then tossed into the meat grinder. This is also the same period of time that birthed the Airborne vs. legs rivalry in the Army, as Airborne units were actually trained for some period of time, before being sent to their gaining unit. This is why I have never called myself, or any of my Infantry brethren for that matter, grunts. We are highly trained (at least on paper!), and have earned the moniker of Warfighter, as opposed to being a geek off the street, who has been basically handed a uniform and weapon and told to charge...

What it all comes down to is this; we are all members of a very elite brotherhood. We are the .45% of the population who had the balls to step forward and heed the call of generations past, to step up and take our place on the line, joining the pantheon of warriors who came before us. We are the very few who said, "I pledge my very life, if it comes to that, to defend my country and the citizens of it, to protect our laws, our culture, our ideas and ideals. To shed blood, and to have mine own blood shed, so that this Nation might be free for a while longer." The true gap between the Infantry and everyone else, is the false assumption that we, the brotherhood within the greater brotherhood, have our ranks filled with individuals who are only there because we didn't score high enough to make it into another MOS. This is a falsity. Some of the most highly intelligent, articulate, competent Soldiers I have ever met in my life were Infantrymen. We have to be extremely profficient at our jobs, as well as at least passably proficient in the jobs of several other MOS's. We are trained to be completely self-sufficient, up to a point. We have to have a broader skillset than just those laid out in the scope of our MOS; we have to be able to effect field expedient repairs on vehicles and equipment, we have to be able to run our own comms, we have to be able to find our own supplies, in the event of supply chain break-down. We are even cross-trained in other combat MOS's. We can call for fire, scout, conduct Anti-air operations, give and gather intel, control prisoners, and many, many other things that are not purely Infantry talents. It pisses me off to no end to hear supply clerks and the like sit around talking about how they are basically Infantry, because they went through some basic fireteam ops while in the field. When I was in Iraq, we spent weeks at a time out at our COP, running sometimes days long operations. We were eating MREs, sometimes only parts of one due to the majority of them having mold on them. We would come back to our FOB for a few hours to refit our vehicles, restock supplies, grab a quick shower if time permitted, and maybe, MAYBE! have time to actually sit in the chow hall for a couple of minutes and eat a real meal. The following happened in different ways many, many times throughout our deployment, but this one is the one I remember most, because we had just lost several Soldiers from our sister Company to an IED/ Secondary explosion; we came in after being in our sector for nearly 2 straight days, tracking down the individuals responsible. There were about 10 of us who went to the chow hall, to grab a quick meal and bring back food for everyone else. We are sitting at a table, still in all our gear, dirty, stinking, dead dog tired, some of us with blood still on our uniforms, when 2 females from another unit come in and sit at the table behind us. They are both in fresh PTs, and they are close enough that we can all hear their conversation. the first one started making comments about how bad we smelled, and then the second one said, and I quote, "My goal this deployment is to never have to change out of PTs." One of my Squad Leaders stood up so fast he flipped the entire table over when his chest rig hung up on it. 3 of us caught him pretty much in mid air, as he was about to do something that is best not spoken of, but we restrained him, and forcibly escorted him out of the chow hall. Every single one of us felt exactly the same way, in that moment, but he was just a little more worn thin than the rest of us. We made it outside and he broke down in tears, that some worthless piece of shit could have the nerve to say something like that. Not having a true front line during that conflict led to individuals thinking that just because they were in country, they were on the front lines. Being mortared is one thing; that has happened in every war in the 20th/21st centuries. However, closing with, and engaging the enemy, on his turf, face to face in direct engagements, is something completely different. Understand that we are indeed "One Team, One Fight", but also know that what we in the Infantry go through day in, day out, is something that would make the vast majority of people in support MOSs soil themselves. There is nothing at all to be ashamed of, because you are a mechanic, or a finance specialist, or supply, or any other MOS. You served. You did a job in service of your country. Be proud of what YOU DID. Don't think that not being Infantry cheapens your accomplishments. Don't think for a second that you are second class, because you don't get a blue cord, or a CIB, or the majority of medals for valor. Be proud of what you have accomplished, because at the end of the day, we do need you. We need you because our job is the job that haunts a man for the rest of his life. Ours is the job that gives you the highest chance/probability of seeing what your brother's insides look like, or your own. It is what keeps you awake at night, cowering in the dark. It is the job that wakes you up when you do sleep, screaming out someone's name who is no longer around. it is the job that gives you all those wonderful faces that haunt your every moment, waking or asleep. it is the taste of blood in your mouth, the smell of burning flesh in your nose, and the bone deep feeling of guilt that you carry with you, every day for the rest of your life. We don't have blue cords and CIBs, EIBs and such becaseu we think it makes us look cooler than everyone else. We wear them to identify ourselves to each other, and to show to others the individuals that you should probably not fuck with at the bar, or anywhere else for that matter. We wear them with pride; pride in ourselves, pride in those who came before us, and pride for those men, some of whom were much, much better men than we ourselves, who gave their lives doing what we do. It is not that we were too stupid to make it into another MOS; it is that we had a calling to join the hallowed ranks of the Infantry, to do the job that so few, even in our already small brotherhood of .45%, had the calling to do. We don't ask for your pity, as we have nothing but pride in what we do. We ask not for your praises, as there is nothing you could ever say to us to make what we do an easier burden to carry. All we ask is that you A) give us our space, and leave your offhanded comments to yourself, and B) never think that you could be us. If you think you can, then by all means, go to your career counselor and tell him or her that you would like to re-enlist with a change of MOS. and C) stop bitching that the Infantry gets to go to all the "cool schools", like Airborne and Air Assault. There is a reason for that; you don't NEED Airborne/Air Assault-qualified cooks, or finance specialists, or JAG personnel. These are schools to train us in different ways of getting from point A to point B, to close with and kill the enemy.

Damn, but that was quite the response. I make no apologies though, as this is something near and dear to me. I wear my CIB on me every day, be it on my hat, a lapel pin, or just on the tattoo on my side, above the list of friends I served with, who didn't make it home alive.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 2:44 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 14:44:21 -0500

I haven't been called a POG in a long time. Last time I was I reminded he "individual" that I was the bus driver and since I had signed for the bus and I could either get him and his buddies to the PX or they could walk the four miles in the rain. Didn't matter to me, I didn't need anything from the Shoppette.

On a more serious note. This "Pog" delivered your MRE's, mail, ammuniton, water, and whatever else was put in the conex's I hauled all over Iraq. You have your role, I had mine. I respect what you do, but in the end...the bus keys are still mine.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Nov 21 at 2014 3:55 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:55:32 -0500

Maybe, if the CSM, and others, didn't wear blinders the soldiers would start correcting themselves? Additionally, if the CSM did not make it to where he was going, there would be enough motivation to make sure this problem was promptly corrected.

Ignoring a problem never helps...if you need examples look at what is going on with immigration and ISIS.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Nov 21 at 2014 4:00 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:00:39 -0500

If you don't want to be called a POG, stop acting like a POG. From my experience, being a POG was less about what you did than what you didn't do. Every career field had its POGs, even the Combat Arms.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Nov 21 at 2014 4:55 PM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:55:40 -0500

I read thru and not sure what the acronym POG is for, I guess it is similar to a REMF???

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 10:16 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 22:16:32 -0500

Like I have heard- a unit that would pass inspection is not combat effective and a unit combat effective would not pass inspection.

Response by SFC Royce Williams made Nov 22 at 2014 9:28 AM

SFC Royce Williams — Sat, 22 Nov 2014 09:28:25 -0500

As I read a lot of these comments it reminds me of the band bitching about the football team lol

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Nov 22 at 2014 9:46 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sat, 22 Nov 2014 09:46:12 -0500

Many don't understand what it takes to keep the point of the spear sharp. I went to war as the V Corps Rear G3 SGM. Yea, as a 11B I was so far behind the front it was pathetic. But I had a job to do and did it to the best of my ability. It takes all kinds to keep the Army in the fight. And don't forget, during the Battle of the Bulge just how many POGs were called up to defend the front. In today's fast moving fronts, terrorists attacks on bases or where ever, every soldier needs to be on their toes. It may just be a POG who stops some bad guy trying to bomb a Base.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2014 12:07 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Nov 2014 12:07:15 -0500

Personally I don’t care what the infantry call me. I usually call them trench monkeys, everybody in the service have a job and a funny name. I don’t see it of a issues of who is better than who. We all are part of a puzzle and doing our job we made that puzzle complete to win wars.

Response by SGT Stephen George made Nov 22 at 2014 1:44 PM

SGT Stephen George — Sat, 22 Nov 2014 13:44:13 -0500

I guess the paratroopers should stop calling the guys & girls with less determination, willingness, drive, and guts LEGS ...NOT !

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Nov 22 at 2014 2:38 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Sat, 22 Nov 2014 14:38:15 -0500

Grandpa served in WWII and gave the best advice......never mess with ANYONE who handles your pay, your fuel/ammo, your food, or your mail. 70 years later it still rings true. Call us what you will, but give grandpa his due and proper.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 2:49 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 02:49:07 -0500

Having served 6 years in the AF and 7 years in the Army and deploying both as a Crew Chief always on a big base with all the fixins, and a Line Medic out in downtown Baghdad on patrols I can say people that use terms like this are either joking around and giving fellow brothers and sisters in arms a hard time or they are very ignorant to the logistical concerns of war and need to learn a few things. I give friends in different branches of service or in different MOS' a hard time and joke but I am never just outright disrespectful and mean about it because I know everyone has their role to fill in making sure the Grunt at the tip of the spear has what he needs (bullets, food, gear, radios, training, etc) in order to kill the enemy. People that get offended by words like POG, Fobbit, TOC roach etc for the most part need to toughen up and realize it's mostly just a hard time between brothers. Everyone likes to think they are the best thing since sliced bread, 11B's give 19D's shit, 19D's give 19K's shit, etc etc; when I was a medic downrange I gave my guys shit about being "dumb" grunts and they gave me shit about being an AF POG because of my old job. It was nothing but love mean, cold blooded love between comrades. The only time I have really gotten pissed was when I was told by a 20ish year old 11B fresh out of AIT that I was a stupid medical POG and he was a hardcore killer because he went to sand hill at Ft. Benning. I made sure I schooled him on how things worked in the military and how utterly ignorant and retarded he sounded. So in synopsis I would say either give them a hard time back, shut up and deal, or change jobs but please please please stop crying about it :-D

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 6:48 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 18:48:12 -0500

Person other than Grunt. If soldiers are getting so butt hurt about this saying then why didn't they just join to be a Grunt then, so then they wouldn't be called a (POG). I work with the Infantry and it doesn't bother me at all when they call me POG because both of us know that I walk side by side with them in combat. That we both embrace the same suck. That we all have each other's 6's.

Response by Sgt Joshua Potts made Nov 24 at 2014 12:41 AM

Sgt Joshua Potts — Mon, 24 Nov 2014 00:41:41 -0500

Response by SGT James Colbert made Nov 24 at 2014 8:34 AM

SGT James Colbert — Mon, 24 Nov 2014 08:34:42 -0500

I have read all these comments, back in the "Army" prior to ACU 2005ish, ever branch had its nickname, mud puppies(MP) Gun Bunnies(artillery), Grunts (infantry), legs, pogs, fisters, soap on a rope (air assault) Dirt dart (airborne) Doc(medic) I don't see the point of getting upset, we got the nicknames, because you were respected and part of a exclusive club, because back in those days, we got those names because we worked closely with them, I was a combat camera person, was called a remf, or a leg...like also another person said. If it wasn't for us , they wouldn't have gotten what they needed. my brother who was a tanker, told me they wouldn't say anything to you if didn't like you or help you out

Response by Sgt Alvin P. Liendo "Tanto" made Nov 24 at 2014 12:56 PM

Sgt Alvin P. Liendo "Tanto" — Mon, 24 Nov 2014 12:56:13 -0500

I was referred to as Spook more than POG. However, I was never insulted by being called a POG. Well, not any more than an infantry person being called a Grunt, I suppose. In my opinion, being called a Grunt is more derogatory because Grunt typically means brutish and stupid. So if POG is Person Other then Grunt, why would I be offended at being called the opposite of brutish and stupid?

Anyway, I think it all has to do with the perceived intent in which one is being called names. It's in the attitude in which the "term of endearment" is used. Just like any other nickname, typically if you don't like it, that's what you will be called.

Response by PO3 John Jeter made Nov 24 at 2014 8:22 PM

PO3 John Jeter — Mon, 24 Nov 2014 20:22:11 -0500

I guess I'm getting too old and literal......I had to read several posts before I linked "POG" with an older term we used in my day "POGUE". I always heard it used in reference to a group, not so much to any individual (unless it was in a humorous way). I don't even recollect that it was a disparaging term so much..... Someone else made the analogy of an orchestra sounding different for lack of any one instrument. I compare the term "POG" to "WOODWIND" or "BRASS" or such. A truism comes to mind that I will leave hanging out there for "front liners" who wish to look down on support "POG'S/POGUE'S........"Don't bite the hand that feeds you!" *grin*

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2014 9:54 PM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Nov 2014 21:54:53 -0500

I read the article, there is a lot of crying in it. I have very close friends of mine that are POGs who work in my battalion and yes I still tell them they are. Toughen up.... You're a POG, embrace it, get over it or get out.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2014 11:04 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Nov 2014 11:04:51 -0500

I am a POG, a REMF, I am in the rear with the gear and I like it!

I was a crew chief for the mighty Chinook (Shithook since were using non-PC terminology) for many years, did many field exercises in the woods with face paint just like a "real" Soldier and landed all over Iraq, now I am a TI / Platoon Sergeant and crew a desk. Sometimes the grunt life looked like fun but then I would always feel better when I realized that I got paid more to stay in the helicopter than those guys did to jump out of it.

Nothing but respect for the those that chose to be a Grunt, Cook, Clerk, Artilery all of us have our role to compliment the others...but I got to go flying.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2014 4:32 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Nov 2014 16:32:45 -0500

First, I think there is a world of difference between talking in general about POGs and actually singling out one individual as a POG.

Recognize that the general statement isn't as much derogatory to the POGs as it is a statement of shared misery which grunts are subject to. If you've never woken up when water started filling your nose because the place you rolled your sleeping bag out became a pond, then you never were a grunt. If you didn't sleep in a shell crater wearing full uniform and kevlar, you never were a grunt. If you never jumped from an airplane, hoisted 100 pounds of gear on your back, and went for a 10-mile forced march at 0200, you never were a grunt.

I'm not likely to call someone a POG to their face, unless we are BOTH joking, or unless they were telling me how much smarter they were to have a nice, cushy billet while I was freezing my cojones off. And if you are stupid enough to say that to a grunt, maybe you are a POG.

Respect. What goes around, comes around. But otherwise, try to make allowances for people expressing shared misery - and proud of it.

Response by TSgt Tim Walker made Nov 27 at 2014 9:49 AM

TSgt Tim Walker — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 09:49:46 -0500

I took my Dad's advice and went in to learn a trade that being aviation. He was a veteran of Guadalcanal in WWII and said I was smart to learn more then how to dig a foxhole. I took the ribbing knowing I could get a job if I got out.I think POGs are the smart ones.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 12:04 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 12:04:25 -0500

Normally the wiki is not terribly reliable. This, however, the links check out.

There are three things I LOVE about this thread.

1. Marines whining about being called a name. Do you have any idea how many times I will re-post that article when my friends talk about how much cooler they were in the Marines.

2. Why is the opinion of the knuckle draggers so important to the rest of the army, what does the Air Force do for approval? (Seriously if you are looking for someone else for approval then why pick that group? Unless they are someone you need approval from?)

3. The term predates almost anyone on this forum? In an organization that prides itself on history and memorizing the most inane details the Marines are would think that Pogue would mean P.O.G. Yet another thing for me to tease my marine friends about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogue

Pride comes from within not from someone else.

Pogue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pogue is pejorative military slang for non-combat, staff, and other rear-echelon or support units.[1] "Pogue" frequently includes those who don't have to undergo the stresses that the infantry does.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 3:49 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 15:49:38 -0500

From the Wiki but cited to scholarly works not directly related the military. It also makes since as Poggie bait shows up as early as late WWI.

As grunt does not appear in the vernacular until Vietnam, I think I am going with the following:

Originally, the term was a sexual insult in early twentieth century gay culture, as "pogue" was slang for a young male who submitted to sexual advances.[3]
Also referred to boys that were kidnapped by press gangs and brought onto ships during the 1700s, that were then raped by the crew and forced to do other menial labor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogue

Does this mean that calling someone a Pogue is now an EO complaint?

[Humor section redacted but it was fun to write]

Pogue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pogue is pejorative military slang for non-combat, staff, and other rear-echelon or support units.[1] "Pogue" frequently includes those who don't have to undergo the stresses that the infantry does.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Dec 1 at 2014 2:10 AM

SSG Tim Everett — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 02:10:10 -0500

Social media and the internet in general allows for a great deal of trolling. As with all things in life, if you don't have a thick skin, you're in the wrong profession. The military exists to fight wars, not dance around play fuck-fuck games in the tulips.

Response by SGT James Elphick made Dec 1 at 2014 6:37 PM

SGT James Elphick — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 18:37:34 -0500

I'm pretty sure I was called "dumb Grunt", "bullet-sponge", "knuckledragger", and any number of other derisive terms as an infantryman and I returned in kind. Anyone who served in the GWOT knows how blurred the lines became and how many MOS's found themselves engaged in combat because what started as a Civil Affairs mission to a village could easily devolve into a protracted fire fight at any minute. But I don't think they have a real case. This is the military and we have a tough job to do, if you can't handle some ribbing from your colleagues how can anyone expect to handle the stresses of combat? If someone doesn't want to be called a POG then they need to toughen up and return fire, that's the only way they will get respect, not by whining to the newspaper.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 11:50 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 11:50:49 -0500

At the end of the day, us grunts know we wouldn't be anywhere without the other MOS's but the use of the word POG is sort of a motivational word that we even use amongst ourselves. When we've been out in the field for days/weeks without a shower and we've been eating MRE's, it sort of helps motivate us to embrace it especially when we hear others complain about not getting their hot chow on time or missing px time. On top of that we consider other MOS's as grunts when they're right out there with us enduring the suck.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 8:24 AM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Dec 2014 08:24:55 -0500

I'm a POG, my husband is a grunt, neither term is derogatory. Is this what we've regressed to? Whining about nicknames?

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 1:24 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 13:24:37 -0500

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 2:33 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Dec 2014 14:33:35 -0500

POG, Fobbit, 'Rear with the Gear', and more; they are fun stuff that passes the time. I think it's when individuals take their jobs or MOS too seriously that the jokes become stale and a 'hurt feelings' report needs to be issued.

I'm a 46 series, print and broadcast Soldier, so you can imagine what kind of terms have been slung at the Soldier hulking a point and shoot or a Panasonic. It's all in good fun.

Response by Cpl Dennis F. made Dec 5 at 2014 10:26 PM

Cpl Dennis F. — Fri, 05 Dec 2014 22:26:17 -0500

I did a little research as "Pogue/POG" has to be one of the most miss used and least understood slang.

The Viet prostitute slang is BS, but going back a few wars Pogue was a UK word for prostitute and the famous American chocolate bar (Pogey Bait) could probably get you laid in a decimated Europe. Make the connection?

60s RVN had a lot of Pogues: Comm pogues, supply pogues, Remington raiders (office pogues). In a Tank Bn. Pogue meant anyone that rarely left the Bn. perimeter. The Comm pogues thought us Gun Co. guys crazed gods from listening to combat actions. I used trained supply pogues as drivers/loaders and always had extra anything, especially C-rats.

To the credit of Marine pogues, they were riflemen first and thus our reactionaries. During TET when all hell broke loose they did not hesitate and we lost many from a two 6X reaction group that responded to an OP over run...they were anything but Other Than Grunt.

Response by MSgt Keith Hebert made Dec 6 at 2014 10:54 AM

MSgt Keith Hebert — Sat, 06 Dec 2014 10:54:43 -0500

While coming up through the ranks I was told one thing.
Never piss off the cook or the supply clerk.
I have been a POG my whole career. But it never stopped me from doing my job.
When given sh*t give sh*t back.
Whenever I have the grunts the same amount of crap back to them it usually ended up in the e-club drinking a lot of beer.

Response by Cpl Brendan Bownes made Dec 13 at 2014 9:39 PM

Cpl Brendan Bownes — Sat, 13 Dec 2014 21:39:56 -0500

I always thought "POG" was a term of endearment. Never bothered me one bit.

Response by SPC Daniel Edwards made Dec 15 at 2014 10:24 PM

SPC Daniel Edwards — Mon, 15 Dec 2014 22:24:27 -0500

I don't mind being called a POG. I was deployed when I was combat arms as a maneuver platoon. I hated going out on patrols day in, day out. I enjoy that I get to sit behind a desk instead of a motor pool everyday (first duty station was Fort Polk for 3 years, due the math on that one). The way I see it, I did my time on patrols, I am now content on staying on the FOB. I, however, will not bend the regulations. I will stay in uniform no matter what. Go ahead and call me old fashioned and stubborn. I will follow the rules and at the end of the day, wont be on anyone's shit list.

I have a tendency to laugh at the people that flip out because it is a little chilly in the mornings. OF COURSE IT'S COLD, the sun hasn't warmed the earth up yet at 6 am. I am walking around in your average, everyday, standard ACU uniform, my NCO (as well as everyone else in my branch who just got out of basic) is wearing his fleece and saying how cold he is. I can only think to myself "No its not." every time because it will only get colder and these people will not know how to handle it.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2014 12:46 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 12:46:30 -0500

I'll take a POG over a POS any day in any unit.

There is good natured banter and humor between the services and MOS's and it's all good. Competition is good. Everything in moderation is good. Watch out for those that take it (or themselves) too seriously. Nothing usually shut people up faster than telling them I'd make them switch jobs for a while and see how they like it.

I've been on both sides - Combat Arms and Combat Support. It's kind of like comparing the run and walk on the APFT - the walk is not as easy as it sounds and unless you've tried it, you might not should talk smack about it.

It takes all kinds doing different jobs to makes the big green wheel go around.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2014 4:52 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 16:52:21 -0500

I cannot improve upon the article written by Peter Sessum titled "POG is a Mentality not an MOS" - I encourage you to take the time to read it.

He makes several excellent points that I give two thumbs up too. It's not what you do, but how you go about doing it.

http://thedogtagchronicles.com/2014/05/18/pog-is-a-mentality-not-an-mos/

POG is a Mentality not an MOS

By Peter Sessum Even though it was a couple of years ago, the Why Grunts Hate POGs post is still getting hits so it must resonate with a lot of people. Maybe it is time for a follow-up or an update...

Response by Sgt Jason West made Dec 18 at 2014 2:34 PM

Sgt Jason West — Thu, 18 Dec 2014 14:34:40 -0500

Always some POG complaining about something. Being a POG myself I see no problem with it. There are POGs and Grunts. Among POGs there are POG and AirWing. It's not much different than squids calling us jarheads. Enjoy the POG life, or if you don't want to be called a POG go infantry.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 5:11 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 17:11:39 -0500

I am a POG, I am a LEG, I am COMMO. Who cares what you are called. Your defending your country and getting a paycheck on the 1st and 15th. People forget the basics of life and worry too much with feelings and what the media puts in our minds. Live by what you know go to work, hone in on your technical and tactical skills, take care of soldiers, kill bad guys and go home.
: )

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 3:31 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:31:38 -0500

Standards are standards they must be followed. If not corrected then we are just creating new standards. As of the chain of command not caring I have seen this before but what I found out is if you can change the outlook of at least one person in that unit it will spread over time and less others will have to correct due to them being correct.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2014 4:07 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 04:07:21 -0500

Just going to leave this here

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2014 7:53 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 07:53:09 -0500

Ok, so I served in the Navy, now Army. The "jabbing" goes on in both services. I believe it is healthy and needed to give each other the edge to better themselves. Yes, even the Grunts go at each other to see who is even less amongst themselves. Airborne/legs.

DS's even get on each other. It's highly competitive as is any specialized program.

Navy has many different aspects within their organization that seperates them. Sea Duty/Shore duty. Airdale/ships company. Surface/Sub surface. I'm not even gonna mention the other part of the Navy...Marines. Lol
But its all good humor. Tough love between and in the military is a tradition that goes back to Roman times. It is necessary, and if you get your feelings hurt them you shouldn't have joined.

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Dec 25 at 2014 8:55 AM

Sgt Adam Jennings — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 08:55:57 -0500

Ah, I'm a POG Marine, I this what it is. Usually when it becomes an issue is when you have a Grunt jokingly and good heartedly calling someone that and the recipient cops an attitude about it. In the Corps, that's an all gloves off response. We run each other constantly. Grunts pick at POG's and we run our better, but not by much, deployment life in their face whenever we get a chance, lol. Most of the time it's all done in good humor. I've got many grunt friends that couldn't give a crap less that I'm a POG. In fact, a lot of them tell me they appreciate U.S. commander guys for keeping comm up and a way to communicate back home up a lot of times as well.

I'll admit though, there are some of the newer guys out there that don't take it as a joke and they mean it in an extremely demeaning manner. Those are the guys that are the problem.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2014 2:22 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 14:22:44 -0500

Response by SFC Nikhil Kumra made Jan 3 at 2015 11:36 AM

SFC Nikhil Kumra — Sat, 03 Jan 2015 11:36:32 -0500

One major theme here - a culture change of political correctness. any Vietnam vets here that can speak on whatever nonsense that occurred during the post Vietnam drawdown? We're there things that happened based on the political rule of the day?

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 12:46 PM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 12:46:27 -0500

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2015 11:54 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 14 Mar 2015 11:54:28 -0400

I am really not trying to split hairs here, but, being a Finance guy and former combat arms NCO, paratrooper, you get the idea, I am not a ground pounder any more. By virtue of my position, I don't get to go do all the cool guy stuff. However, I can still shoot people in the face if necessary. I'm still a Soldier. I think being called a pogue is pretty humorous and just let slide on by. BUT, this discussion is about being called a "POG"...

So just to clarify:

POG - Pogs is a game that was popularized during the early 1990s. The game is played using discs which are also called "pogs". The name originates from POG, a brand of juice made from passionfruit, orange and guava; the use of the POG bottle caps to play the game pre-dated the game's commercialization. (according to Wikki)

Pogue -Pogue is pejorative military slang for non-combat, staff, and other rear-echelon or support units. "Pogue" frequently includes those who don't have to undergo the stresses that the infantry does. Wikipedia

So, yeah, I can understand why the guy in the latrine hates to be called a POG...Just saying...

Response by Sgt Spencer Sikder made Mar 14 at 2015 11:59 AM

Sgt Spencer Sikder — Sat, 14 Mar 2015 11:59:39 -0400

The failure of a leader is not recognizing ALL the people who helped him/her attain success.

A Soldier/Marine/Sailor/Airman in the field didn't get there by themselves. The food service staff who fed them, the air crew that delivered or picked them up, the loggies who brought the supplies, the HR types who saw to it that their SRBs were updated, etc.

Each member of an organization, from the housekeeper or mailroom clerk to the CEO is a vital part of a successful team. Like the old saying, a cog in the wheel, without one the wheel falls apart.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2015 12:27 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Mar 2015 12:27:20 -0400

As a "POG" and a "leg" myself, I think some people need to quit their crying. It's funny, you're (we're) soft, get over it. In the end, I still left the wire pretty much every day as a crew chief, and I still made it a point to serve the customer (pax and cargo) the absolute best I could because I knew they often had a harder $#!++y job than I was interested in doing. If I could take more passenger I would, I'd another kicker box had to get somewhere to make life better for the grunts, I'd take it. I took who and what I could when I could because I knew one more person on my aircraft was one less person not prone to getting hit with an IED on a convoy. I started recognizing a few of the grunts at certain stops because they would personally hand me letters to send home because they weren't sure if those letters would get home through conventional means. I stuck them in my plate carrier, and when I got back to cushy Bagram, I'd personally take them to the post office, and they'd be their way. They were thankful for that. Then I'd go to my b-hut and enjoy the luxury of my own internet, memory foam layer mattress, and a hot shower. If they want to call me a POG for that, I'll take it, because they are in much crappier circumstances than I've ever been. They're better men and soldiers for it to. So have at it. Let the babies cry. I can take a joke!

Response by CPT Bruce Rodgers made Mar 28 at 2015 10:34 PM

CPT Bruce Rodgers — Sat, 28 Mar 2015 22:34:50 -0400

Deep inside every infantryman in a POG trying to get out

Response by SPC Donald Tribble made Mar 28 at 2015 10:38 PM

SPC Donald Tribble — Sat, 28 Mar 2015 22:38:26 -0400

We used the term REMF when I was in, Rear Echelon Mother F**ker...similar concept...light hearted teasing...unit cohesion...are all fine...when it corrupts the ability of a unit to operate there's a big problem...btw, what size needle would you like?? :)

Response by CPO Greg Frazho made Mar 29 at 2015 8:05 AM

CPO Greg Frazho — Sun, 29 Mar 2015 08:05:53 -0400

Well, let's see: I'm a POG (because I'm not 0300 or 11B); I'm a LEG, because I haven't jumped out of a perfectly good airplane; I'm a WOG because I've never crossed the equator and I'm a squid because I was never in the Army or the Marine Corps. I'm everybody's whipping boy!! For the most part they were all pretty cool, though. It was only the jerks, as with any group of people, I didn't care for.

Response by PFC Mike Mcdermott made Mar 30 at 2015 10:54 AM

PFC Mike Mcdermott — Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:54:22 -0400

Lol pogs are everywhere. Be nice to everyone because you don't know who butters your bread

Response by SGT William Howell made Mar 30 at 2015 12:15 PM

SGT William Howell — Mon, 30 Mar 2015 12:15:38 -0400

I was a POG and when ever I rolled into BIAP I could not help but shake my head at all the infantry units that were just hanging out at the big PX. As a POG I ran the roads every day while infantry occupied the FOBs. The days where the infantry is pushing forward and we stay in the rear are done. POGs hold your head high we are just as important.

Response by SGT Jason Anderson made Mar 30 at 2015 9:17 PM

SGT Jason Anderson — Mon, 30 Mar 2015 21:17:58 -0400

Call me what you want - even grunts have to drive somewhere... And I know how to disable your armored vehicle...

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Mar 31 at 2015 11:27 AM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 11:27:03 -0400

POG. Let me see, as I was an Infantry man that meant, P(erson) O(ther than) G(runts). Are you Infantry I ask? No I'm an MP. Oh POG. Are you Infantry? No, I'm a M-1 driver. POG. Why is it offensive. If I use it in a derogatory way, I can see getting butt hurt about it. Most like the a fore mentioned uniform violations happen allot, and we call you POG's because if you where Infantry you would be spending the afternoon getting you butt smoked!

Now with that being said, it was derogatory if we called you a REMF!

Response by PO1 Jeffrey Stoddard made Mar 31 at 2015 11:38 AM

PO1 Jeffrey Stoddard — Tue, 31 Mar 2015 11:38:31 -0400

Just a dumb sailor. What's POG?

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made Apr 1 at 2015 9:24 AM

SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. — Wed, 01 Apr 2015 09:24:15 -0400

I personally have low respect for POACMs
That's People Other than Airborne Combat Medics
It's pronounced "Pok-ums"

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2015 3:06 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Apr 2015 03:06:45 -0400

I think to some degree the ribbing is justified. I've seen plenty of support units that brought the contempt levied upon themselves. Ultimately, I believe the term POG is indicative more of a difference in mentality more than competence or ability. I've gone to medical and training events outside of my formation in the past and wondered if we were in the same Army. In my opinion combat arms units tend to take everything more seriously because small mistakes cost lives. A small mistake in an S1 shop just means a troop doesn't get promoted on time. I think this why we all see that 88M on occasion who has one ammo pouch on his kit and it's full of sunflower seeds.

With that being said, I had a number of excellent transpo and maintenance NCOs attached to my Platoon when we deployed. I'd put them up against an Infantryman in leadership and discipline any day of the week. There are certainly some weaklings in combat arms who deserve the moniker POG as well. In an ideal world, all Soldiers would perform at the same level. I would love to see all Soldiers view themselves as warriors, not unlike the attitude of "Every Marine a rifleman." To accomplish this, I believe, would require some cultural change in the support world.

Response by SGT Corey Franks made Apr 7 at 2015 12:42 PM

SGT Corey Franks — Tue, 07 Apr 2015 12:42:57 -0400

About to order my new plate! "I Hate POGS"

Response by SFC Walter Mack made Apr 7 at 2015 7:46 PM

SFC Walter Mack — Tue, 07 Apr 2015 19:46:03 -0400

I went from Infantry to POG. I embrace it, but at least I have an Infantry heritage. If it bothers you to be a POG, you can switch your MOS to Infantry just as easily as I switched to medical. If being a hard corps Infantry killer wasn't important to you when you joined, great. Stop being a crybaby about it and embrace whatever it is that you joined to do. Also, accept that if you're not a grunt, then you are a Personnel Other than Grunt (POG!). It doesn't make you less of a man..., or does it?

Response by Sgt Reid Willis made Apr 7 at 2015 8:04 PM

Sgt Reid Willis — Tue, 07 Apr 2015 20:04:48 -0400

Does anyone even know what G.R.U.N.T stands for? Please look at it up. Ground Replacement Unit Not Tained. So in reality, the infantry are the real POGs.

Response by SFC Walter Mack made Apr 14 at 2015 6:56 PM

SFC Walter Mack — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 18:56:34 -0400

At least one person is being honest.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 7:02 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 19:02:46 -0400

I have been support before...now I'm infantry and love nothing more! but it's still fun to call non infantry POG 's ....it's how the army has always worked...new gen soldiers need to chill lol it's all fun and games lol just like people say everyone in the infantry are dumb...not true but it's funny to them...oh well...lol doesn't bother me

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 7:03 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Apr 2015 19:03:25 -0400

And I definitely would have lost it hearing that guy say shut up POG lol

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2015 4:59 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 16:59:09 -0400

I think the primary reason why I dislike the term is because it shows a lack of understanding. Sure, many "POGs" are stuck in offices, or inside the wire/fob/etc...yet, without these POGs -- nothing would get done.

The military lives and dies by the POGs. Too many combat arms think that the POGs do nothing...until that LOGPAC, chow, mail, maintenance, personnel work, medical (and the list goes on and on) is late/missing. If you can't supply/feed your military -- stuff ends very quickly.

Also, another major thing that I've noticed primarily in the military (civilian world too, but just seems more prevalent in the military) is the constant "I do more than you" bit. It seems all to often that service members are constantly trying to "prove" that they do more than someone who isn't a part of their squad/team/whatever.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 11:14 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:14:33 -0400

As a POG, I have no real issue with being called a POG. I know what I am. I didn't enlist to be Infantry and I don't pretend that that's what I am, or that I do anything remotely similar. I wear the same uniform and qualify on a rifle that fires the same caliber of ammunition. Thats where the similarities stop. I have a problem with the idiot 11Bs, usually junior Enlisted that make it their goal to discount anything said by a POG, usually with something along the lines of "You aren't man enough to be Infantry, your opinion or thoughts don't count." Of course it's never put quite like that. Its usually thrown in with name calling and the like. I also don't like that Infantry tend to think of EVERYONE as their support. Support MOSs are things like Admin, commo, cooks, transport and other MOSs like that. Artillery, Armor, Air Defense and what not aren't support in the way they usually mean it. Hell, when I was on Guam an Infantry unit pulled security for us. I'd definitely say, THEY were the support in that situation, not the other way around. Anyways, I've gotten off subject...

TL:DR If you're a POG, you're a POG. Don't get your feelings hurt. It's what you are.

Response by LCpl John Filiatrault made Oct 22 at 2015 3:06 PM

LCpl John Filiatrault — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 15:06:36 -0400

I think all military members should be held to the same expectations no matter what rank or branch. Without it the team breaks down. After all we are representing the USA whenever we are seen. Send a positive message to the people and you'll get a positive response the way I see it

Response by SSG Keith Fosmire made Nov 22 at 2015 3:05 PM

SSG Keith Fosmire — Sun, 22 Nov 2015 15:05:02 -0500

SHUT UP POGS!!! LOL...someone had to say it. If you don't like being a POG, become a GRUNT.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2016 6:57 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Mar 2016 18:57:20 -0500

POG means nothing other than People Other-than Grunts. Infantry have been using it as a jest and to poke fun of anyone not in the infantry as do the POGs tease the grunts about being brain less. Other words like Poggie Bait (candy) is also derived from POG. I am willing to help those sensitive, whining, thin skinned Soldiers and Marines that cannot seem to take a little ribbing. Here it goes. POG POG POG POG POG POG POG POG POG POG POG. Glad to be of service. From one POG to another

Response by Matt Moon made Sep 8 at 2018 3:05 PM

Matt Moon — Sat, 08 Sep 2018 15:05:55 -0400

When someone calls me a POG. (68W) Healthcare Specialist - You're Medic . You know what i tell them you can patch you're swiss chesse ass up yourself if you get shoot . Now it isn't that funny anymore is it ?

Response by MSG Danny Mathers made Sep 8 at 2018 3:30 PM

MSG Danny Mathers — Sat, 08 Sep 2018 15:30:20 -0400

Back in my day, the Infantry called support personnel REMFs. Back then there were no FOBs or LSAs there were Fire Bases and LZs. REMFs rarely went outside the wire and spent their whole tours with 3 hots and a cot. The Infantry spent 99% of their tour in the Bush or Field. Field troops didn't polish boots, wear flak jackets, helmets or patches and simply didn't have to. The chain of command rarely went to the field unless it was 3,000 ft AGL. The short time our troops spent in the rear was one to two nights, and mostly one day & night and we pulled perimeter guard. We had just enough time to shower in air temperature water, shave, eat a meal, mostly c-ration because the chow usualy had flies in it and consumed as much alcohol as required to sleep through incoming. REMF hated the field troops and Field troop hated REMFs. Why? Several reasons, The Infantry didn't care asbout stupid rules and the command didn't enforce them. REMF walked around in starched fatigues, with patches, and shined boots and had every PX gadjet they could afford. The only PX item I had was a watch so I wouldn't get cheated on guard. I spent almost every night on either ambush or OP/LP far outside the wire. We had to deal with bugs, especially mosquitos, leaches, snakes and little to no sleep on the ground wet and dry and so dark you couldn't see your hand in front of you. You spent half the year soaked to the bone and the other half sweating, thirsty and swarms of bug biting you. REMFs had no idea of the misery the typical combat troop lived in. We could give a rat's ass what REMF thought of our dirty, stinking asses. Likewise, A POG or FOBIT lives pretty good on the FOB and only has the misery of guard duty above a T-wall and Bullshit leadership. The Combat Brigade Teams do not have respect for POGS either so quit sniveling POG! You got it made! I spent 5 year in Iraq as a armed DOD Contractor supporting the Coalition & MNF-I and have a general idea of the division between troops.

Response by Cpl Douglas Loven made Oct 1 at 2018 3:29 AM

Cpl Douglas Loven — Mon, 01 Oct 2018 03:29:42 -0400

O I'm a POG am I? What ever bullet sponge.