Rally Point, What’s your take on the LAND NAV Cheating at TBS?

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Sep 2018 00:30:22 -0400

The Basic School for Marine Officers is reeling from a cheating scandal that involved six second lieutenants accused of wrongfully obtaining and sharing key grid points for the night land navigation course.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2018 12:47 AM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Sep 2018 00:47:29 -0400

Seems like this happens about every 10 years and the offenders are caught and dismissed from the service. Now everyone will be walking on eggshells for a few years and then it will happen again...rinse and repeat. At some point in the future, our enemies will take down our key GPS satellites and one better know how to use a compass and map.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Sep 10 at 2018 8:48 AM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Mon, 10 Sep 2018 08:48:44 -0400

I realize I'm a dinosaur and don't have the advantage of working within the Corps on a daily basis, but this situation, combined with other news about officers and SNCOs being relieved from their billets or investigated and prosecuted rings alarms in my mind that grow louder with every new report. Accessions, be they recruits or officer candidates have always reflected the civilian populace from whence they came. When I went through recruit training and OCS, a significant portion of both regimens was dedicated to emphasizing the many attitudes and actions that were common in the civilian world, but unacceptable in the Corps. Cheating professionally or personally, financial irresponsibility, morally questionable conduct, legal offences often considered minor in the civilian world, lack of personal integrity and many other areas that would not even have been mentioned by a civil employer were pointed out as things that would be dealt with by your seniors, would result in loss of security clearances and either prevent your promotion and ensure your career would be both limited and unpleasant.
The military, for most of my life, was held in high esteem by the civilian world as a step above because of these standards and, within the military, you could generally expect adherence to those higher standards. The expectation that your fellow military personnel were adhering to the expectations simplified performance of duties since you rarely questioned another Marine's integrity or objective in anything you were doing.
Are incidents such as the land nav organized cheating and the reliefs from duty a reflection of the increased publicity available today, are they systemic problems associated with changes in expectations, or are we failing to raise the moral levels of members to the level expected in the past?
Again, I am not qualified to give the answer, but it is the thought that comes to my mind.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2018 11:16 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Sep 2018 11:16:36 -0400

What a debacle. Cheating. Then the investigation gets investigated. And what the heck, let's throw sexual harassment in there for good measure too.

Response by COL Brian Shea made Sep 10 at 2018 4:10 PM

COL Brian Shea — Mon, 10 Sep 2018 16:10:40 -0400

Can't speak for the USMC, but the really stupid thing about this from the Army LN courses I went through, enlisted and commissioned, was that once you got close to a point there was typically a darn path leading to the marker you had to find. Yes, they changed the points from time to time, but usually to other places that had paths leading to them. If these folks had to cheat on such a basic course they need to be back on the block so they can navigate using their phone. Guess some of those "2LT with a compass" jokes are well deserved.

Response by Brad Miller made Sep 10 at 2018 5:29 PM

Brad Miller — Mon, 10 Sep 2018 17:29:15 -0400

I had a two-part response to this -- disappointment, that Marines, but especially Marine officers, would cheat on a "job skill" test. Secondly -- if you can't do your job right, people are going to DIE.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2018 7:31 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Sep 2018 19:31:30 -0400

I was stationed there 79-81 and again for WOBC in 89. LN has been a stumbling block for years. We had a retread from previous class due to him breaking his leg on night session. The woods is fairly worn and you can plan on getting wet. If you get lost, the FBI Acad. is nearby. I know of a WOBC class that busted a handful for copying work on a paper. Not sure about the impact. Integrity matters.

Response by PO1 Robert George made Sep 10 at 2018 8:17 PM

PO1 Robert George — Mon, 10 Sep 2018 20:17:32 -0400

As retired Navy enlisted don't have experience with that evolution and some think I don't have the right, but as a retired BM1 who spent almost 10 years hauling Marines from one point to another(LST, LKA, LSD), it's kind of scary. Leaders of marines that can't find their way around in a 'safe, controled' environment are going to lead them into a hostile environment? 'Just look for the flashes' and 'follow you ears' doesn't sound like a good way to go into combat. The punishment should be harsh. The marines they train to lead deserve better than those individuals. FYI, I hate cheaters at any level!

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Sep 11 at 2018 1:54 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Tue, 11 Sep 2018 13:54:44 -0400

As keel hauling is no longer authorized, drum them out, and have them payback the taxpayers for any and all education expenses.

Response by Maj Ken Brown made Sep 11 at 2018 2:41 PM

Maj Ken Brown — Tue, 11 Sep 2018 14:41:17 -0400

I don't remember any cheating, but we all got a pass for the night compass March. Thunder storm as only Virginia can generate. Strobe light show. I nearly tripped over a Lcpl who was Manning a radio at the halfway point. There was no way pick us up, so we finished the course. Skinned shin on the finish point. Our SPC left a note on his office door to sign up for Infantry. I used three lines. Daytime was harder. I used a power line to get me close and then guessed my way to an aerial photography point. I still got lost in Okinawa's Central Training Area.

Response by SFC Joseph McCausland made Sep 11 at 2018 4:19 PM

SFC Joseph McCausland — Tue, 11 Sep 2018 16:19:12 -0400

A major blow to Honor & Integrity.

Response by SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA made Sep 11 at 2018 7:33 PM

SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA — Tue, 11 Sep 2018 19:33:06 -0400

"If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'. If you get caught, you don't deserve to be SOF." Same applies, I reckon. They got caught. Hammer them for getting caught.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Sep 11 at 2018 11:34 PM

SSG Warren Swan — Tue, 11 Sep 2018 23:34:27 -0400

Chief, you have more than enough folks in the comments talking about how "wrong" this was, how morally contempt this is, how it violates basic Marine values. What I have not seen or read is the person who failed, it, sucked wind and pain to pass it again. Who bombed LN and either lost their dream of being a Marine and had to settle for some other branch or nothing at all. This situation is a touchy one. It's not a joke, but you shouldn't have a ton of replies speaking on how "hard" it was "but I passed". A LOT of things are hard in life, we get knocked down HARD, and hopefully get up stomping ass HARDER. I'm going to go a different route with mine.

The Corps is focused on six LT's/Candidates who cheated in LN. Now run this back, had it been one, eyebrows should've been raised, but it was six. Six tells me this is a systemic issue, and has been going on a lot longer than is admitted. There is no damn way six people get popped, and someone either a NCO or O doesn't know something. So these six will pay for their mistake and rightfully so, but what about those who've been either those charged with training them, ensuring they make it through up to time hack before failing, what is being done to them? It shouldn't be six paying for this, it should be six possibly going home or into another branch (the Space Fore) with a mark on them they will have to bust ass five times as hard to show they've learned and grown from their mistakes.
An iceberg seen is a SHITLOAD bigger underwater. If you only see (or want to see) the top, then you see smallest part of the problem. In this case, these six represent the part above water. Will NCIS make a stern investigation with assistance of Flag Officers from the USMC? Will the USMC be as open and forthcoming as most know they're not (think the Marines United Facebook page scandal). Will they do the same thing like the rest of the services and take the low hanging fruit, hammer them to hell twice in flip flops, and call it a day? That's the easiest way to show the force they did "something", can write a nice and pretty "lessons learned" paper that will now be taught to the next group of LT's/Candidates? In the Army's Mai Li massacre, it was proven after the fact that a lot of flag level/senior level people knew about it and the orders that surrounded it allowing this travesty to happen. How many Officers are/did time behind that? How many NCO's and JO's were hooked up for it? Had it not been in the news, would the world even know it ever happened? I hope the Corps does the right thing and investigates from the top to the bottom, from extreme left to extreme right and spares no one regardless of rank, position, or ability to retire. What the USMC does with this beyond the public show of BS investigative points will make the Corps what it'll be decades after all of us on RP are gone.
If the Corps is only going to do a half assed investigation that penalizes the six, but somehow doesn't find anybody else in this, the best course of action would be to put these six back on a different LN lane, give the same amount of time, and pass them. You've thrown out every singe value known in the USMC, but at least you can keep their mouths shut until they either get out, or those who assisted them retire. I can guarantee once they get out, there will be some names brought up who during the investigation didn't know crap, didn't see crap, and suddenly don't even remember they were in charge of them, the schoolhouse, or even in the Corps at the time. My advice for the Corps.....do the right thing, rank be damned. Look out for the future, not protecting your own ass now.

Response by MAJ Raymond Haynes made Sep 12 at 2018 11:54 PM

MAJ Raymond Haynes — Wed, 12 Sep 2018 23:54:46 -0400

A Marine officer is held to a higher standard in many circles of the military. Any indication of that standard being compromised needs to be dealt with in the strictest of terms. To do anything less lowers the credibility of the entire officer corps. Not just student officers at TBS, but anywhere in the officer ranks where less than stellar conduct is discovered, we must police ourselves. In a world where misconduct tends to be overlooked, Marine officers and NCO's must remain steadfast in keeping our standards above any question. That's why we are Marines.

Response by CPL Rodney Trotter made May 14 at 2020 5:02 AM

CPL Rodney Trotter — Thu, 14 May 2020 05:02:30 -0400

Doesn't surprise me. We had Land nav frilled into us as artillery scouts, and the WORST map readers I've even seen were our 0802 butter bars who just joined the fleet and thought they were so much better because of a stupid diploma. And the only thing they were better at was losing their own asses in the middle of the night.